blksm-welding-msg - 3/25/97

Forge welding. fluxes.

NOTE: See also the files: blacksmithing-msg, blksm-anvils-msg, blksm-forges-msg, 
bladesmithing-msg, metals-msg, casting-msg, metal-sources-msg, metalworking-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: 9 Apr 91 18:47:58 GMT
Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA

griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith) writes:
   My understanding is that a forge weld actually makes two pieces of metal
   one piece.  As opposed to an arc or gas weld, which "glues" the two 
   pieces together -

Close.  Arc welds seem to end up as a cross between a brazed joint and
a "real" weld.  I think of an arc welder as the ultimate hot glue gun
:)...  However, a properly done torch weld is effectively the same as
a forge weld: they both involve melting two pieces of metal and fusing
them together.  The differences are in what things you can do this to.
Since a torch weld heats up a small area, it can only be used for
seams, attaching bars, and so on.  On the plus side, you only heat up
a small part of each piece.  Forge welding can be used on larger
surfaces (for example, welding a high-carbon plate to the face of a
piece of low-carbon stock), as long as you can heat all (or a large
section) of each piece to welding heat.

   Real easy - can you tell where one piece starts and the other begins?
   If you can - your weld hasn't taken - This is usually due to poor flux,
   too light a strike, or the metal wasn't hot enough to begin with.

Also, with practice, you can "feel" a forge weld happen if you've done it
right.  Very satisfying.
--
Arwen                                                   <amanda at visix.com>
Scribe at Small


From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)
Date: 8 Apr 91 15:15:45 GMT
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

IO92237 at MAINE.BITNET writes:
> From: IO92237 at MAINE.BITNET
> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
> Subject: Forge Welding Helm Bars, Swept Hilts?
> 
> The shop in which I do my armouring has recently been equiped with a forge
> capable of raising bars to welding heat.  We have no access to gas/arc
> welders, and personally, I don't like the looks of that type of weld. I am
> also interested in forge welding for more authentic armour and weapon
> manufacture.

Vivat...
 
> Can anyone tell me the strenth of a good forge weld as compared to arc or
> gas welds?

My understanding is that a forge weld actually makes two pieces of metal
one piece.  As opposed to an arc or gas weld, which "glues" the two 
pieces together - I suppose that if you are using good technique and 
materials, it is conceivable that you could make an arc or gas weld
stronger than the original metal.... But, I'd stick with the forge weld,
if I had both the patience and access.
 
> How hard is it to tell if you've successfully made a good weld?

Real easy - can you tell where one piece starts and the other begins?
If you can - your weld hasn't taken - This is usually due to poor flux,
too light a strike, or the metal wasn't hot enough to begin with.

> Can anyone tell me of anyone who has made forge welded face guards for
> SCA usable helms?
> 
> I'm also interested in welding bars for a swept-hilt,  non-combat-legal
> rapier.
> 
> Any input about this stuff or recommendations as to whom I should get
> in contact with would be met with much thankage!
> 
> For now,
> Antonio Gattoneri (known as Izzo)

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.
:griff at anvil.intel.com
:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir 


From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)
Date: 10 Apr 91 15:36:38 GMT
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes:
> From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)
> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
> Subject: Re: Forge Welding Helm Bars, Swept Hilts?
> 
> Also, with practice, you can "feel" a forge weld happen if you've done it
> right.  Very satisfying.
very true - And There is NOTHING like the feel of soft metal under
a well placed hammer blow...:-) 

Reminds me of when I did one of my earliest welds...I was "playing"
with a forge at my local community college, setting up for a weld
on a poker.  Well, this forge was next to one of the buildings where
several students would go by, and whenever we'd fire it up, we'd
gather a crowd.... well, I had about a dozen folks standing around
watching.  Parachute pants were in fashion at the time, which are 
made from nylon (ie. melts easily...) got the picture?  Well, I 
told them all to get back from the anvil, because sparks were going 
to fly.  They stepped back a bit, and I told them again, and they
took another step back - they were now about 4 feet away -  Well, 
they were in college, they were told.... BANG!  a line of little
holes, knee high, all around me....:-) fortunately, I held a hammer
in one hand and a glowing hot poker in the other.....:-) :-)

> Arwen                                                 <amanda at visix.com>
> Scribe at Small

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.
:griff at anvil.intel.com
:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir 


From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)
Date: 19 Apr 91 15:07:15 GMT
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

00mjstum at bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum) writes:
> From: 00mjstum at bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum)
> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
> Subject: Re: Butted Mail
> 
> While we're on this thread, can someone explain how "welding" was done
> in period?  I've found many texts describing the practice of riveting, but
> never welding...
> -- 
>    .                  /                | Matt Stum
>   . .                /                 | 00MJSTUM at BSUVAX1.BITNET
> |/-\/-\ |/-\ |/-\   /    |/-\ |/-\/-\  | 00MJSTUM at bsu-ucs.bsu.edu
> |  /  / |  / |  /   \__/ |  / |  /  /  |
>         |    |           |             | Ball State University, Muncie IN USA
>         |    |           |/\/          | VAX Systems Programmer

Greetings! - Milord, have you ever seen a forge-weld done?  A magnificent
sight, to say the least....  You take both pieces to be welded, (or
lap the two ends of the chain link (:-)  Brush them off and place in
a good "clean" coal fire.  Heat until just before the metal starts to
"burn" - yes, iron will burn, if you get it hot enough - you can tell
this because it will start throwing sparks around... At that point, the
surface of the metal is molten - now STRIKE!  (watch the sparks fly!)
Keep striking - more, more.... ok, now, if everything went well, you 
now have one piece of metal where once there was two....

                      That's just about it...

                                  - Cyrus

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.
:griff at anvil.intel.com
:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir 


From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds
Date: 3 Jan 1997 06:42:43 GMT

Bill Franchini of billf at total.net says...
<SNIP>
>One major stumbling block in all our work is forge welding, 
>specifically that of small pieces such as they are found on rapier 
>hilts.
<SNIP>
>My feeling is that the flux I use is the culrpit.My flux consists of 
>anhydrous borax (borax melted and crushed).

I was taught that with a good reducing fire, no flux was necessary. I have 
welded mild steel without a flux.

>The other problem is the loss of heat on small pieces. Often, by the 
>time I reach the anvil the piece is well below welding heat

Having the anvil close to the fire is obviously useful... :-). When I was 
taught, it was impressed on me that the anvil should be placed close enough 
that a single ste, or preferably just a turn was the best distance away...

>I would also appreciate some help on how to build a proper welding 
>fire. I keep getting conflicting information and whenever I talk to a 
>smith I am usually told that the best welding fire is an Oxi-Acetilene 
>torch! Great but this is not what I want. Clearly the art of fine 
>welding seems to be somewhat forgotten!

A small charcoal fire's the way to go...
(quote from a piece of filk)... ;-)

If the fire hole is not deep enough, you cannot get a reducing area in 
there. The reducing fire has a deficit of oxygen, and will help to prevent 
any surface oxidation, assisting a good weld.

>We work with a bellows-fed fire box of approximately 14"L x 6"W x 
>3"Deep. The bellows is  double action and feeds about 180 liters of 
>air with a seven second downstroke. We can force more air and increase 
>the pressure if needed.

Too much air will give you an oxidising fire which will utterly prevent a 
good weld.

If your coal is high in sulphur, forget it... also if there are high levels 
of other impurities in the coal, you may have problems.

I seem to remember from my research that charcoal was the period method. 
You can also use hardwood chips, which then charcoalise IN the fire, so 
that you are effectively using charcoal.

Perhaps the Good Dr Hrisoulas could be persuaded to give some advice if he 
is still watching this thread... :-)
-- 
rhayes at powerup.com.au  http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/


From: Woody <webersol at epix.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:46:03 -0800

Yuo should be using a reducing fire ,very little air and a hood to hold
the heat. coal will work if you use a good antracite. bituminous should
be reduced to coke, much like making charcoal. charcoal was the popular
method.

as for a flux, try using a good white sand, it seems to give a better
weld. borax was an unknown in period.

the real trick is practice-practice and more practice.

the steel you are trying to weld also has a lot to do with if it works.
modern high carbon stuff is hard to work with, it burns and won't weld.
as for an acetelene torch, a big rosebud with a reducing flame works.
stop by your library and read one of the handbooks on gas welding to
find out about reducing and burning flames and their colours.
for small work, an anvil close to your forge (small one) heated to a hot
but not red condition will help hold the heat in small items.
actual gas welding was done in period using the gasses from reducing
charcoal or coal using a clay nozzle and a bellows to feed air to the
mix.BE CAREFULL this system will backfire and explode if you force too
much air.

there is a book that can be found sometimes at old book shops it is the
AUDELLS BLACKSMITHING HANDBOOK and was published in the early part of
this century and reprinted at least once.
The big problem about blacksmithing is that this was a trade handed down
to your apprentice and not put in books.
The last blacksmith I knew died at the age of 97 and I wish I would have
paid more attention to what he tried to show me. This was 25 years ago
and I thought I would never use that stuff, but now Sigmund der
Messershmid is born or was 5 years ago.I have made and presented many
blades to people in our shire using mostly traditional methods but
modern steels.

If I can be of assistance , just let me know

webersol at epix.net
Sigmund der Messershmid
Shire of Eisental
Kingdom of the east


From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Forge Welding flux recipe ala Atar
Date: 26 Jan 1997 18:46:32 GMT

Greetings all:

I have been deluged by requests so I figure that I will simply post this.

The below flux recipe I have used for the last 15 years..everyone that has
tried it calls is steel glue.  All ingredients are to be finely powdered
and well mixed.

5 parts Anhydrous Borax
2 parts powder Boric Acid
2 parts Flourspar (calcium flouiride)
1 1/2 parts powdered red iron oxide
1/2 part powdered Sal Amoniac
1/2 part non iodized Salt

Mix well and keep in an air tight container as this mixute is hydroscopic.
 Now this is a very active and agressive flux and will destroy most
refactory materials...

This works well in a coal fire, but best in LPG..  I have used this to
weld everything from wrought iron to stainless steels in a forge..I even
managed to get Stellite to forge weld, but I will never do that again...

If anyone has any questions about this please e-mail direct

Atar, Baron Bakhtar, OL
aka
Dr JP Hrisoulas


From: jklessig at slip.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Forge Welding flux recipe ala Atar
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:13:39 GMT

markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:

And I will give my approximate answers
>jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas) wrote:
>...
>> The below flux recipe I have used for the last 15 years..everyone that has
>> tried it calls is steel glue.  All ingredients are to be finely powdered
>> and well mixed.
>...
>> Mix well and keep in an air tight container as this mixute is hydroscopic.

>Meaning what? That it attracts water?

Yes.  Pure table salt (without a drying agent added) is an example, it
will pull moisture out of the air and clump up. The little silica Gel
drying packets often put in with cameras and electronic equipment are
another example where this effect is used.

>>  Now this is a very active and agressive flux and will destroy most
>> refactory materials...

>Meaning what? That you need to keep it in something special?

Meaning that it will eat away at your forge liner, walls etc. At low
temps  it would sort of be like putting crushed ice in a castle made
out of sugar cubes. Nothing much happens. But heat it up to lukewarm
or boiling water, and poof, no more sugar cubes.

>> This works well in a coal fire, but best in LPG..  I have used this to
>> weld everything from wrought iron to stainless steels in a forge..I even
>> managed to get Stellite to forge weld, but I will never do that again...

>What is "Stellite"?
A cobalt based alloy, used for woodworking tools among other things.
Actually it apparently is a brand name, like jello, for a range of
cobalt based alloys. 

Chandra

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	blksm-welding-msg