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blksm-welding-msg - 3/25/97

 

Forge welding. fluxes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: blacksmithing-msg, blksm-anvils-msg, blksm-forges-msg, bladesmithing-msg, metals-msg, casting-msg, metal-sources-msg, metalworking-msg.

 

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)

Date: 9 Apr 91 18:47:58 GMT

Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA

 

griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith) writes:

   My understanding is that a forge weld actually makes two pieces of metal

   one piece.  As opposed to an arc or gas weld, which "glues" the two

   pieces together -

 

Close.  Arc welds seem to end up as a cross between a brazed joint and

a "real" weld.  I think of an arc welder as the ultimate hot glue gun

:)...  However, a properly done torch weld is effectively the same as

a forge weld: they both involve melting two pieces of metal and fusing

them together.  The differences are in what things you can do this to.

Since a torch weld heats up a small area, it can only be used for

seams, attaching bars, and so on.  On the plus side, you only heat up

a small part of each piece.  Forge welding can be used on larger

surfaces (for example, welding a high-carbon plate to the face of a

piece of low-carbon stock), as long as you can heat all (or a large

section) of each piece to welding heat.

 

   Real easy - can you tell where one piece starts and the other begins?

   If you can - your weld hasn't taken - This is usually due to poor flux,

   too light a strike, or the metal wasn't hot enough to begin with.

 

Also, with practice, you can "feel" a forge weld happen if you've done it

right.  Very satisfying.

--

Arwen                                                   <amanda at visix.com>

Scribe at Small

 

 

From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)

Date: 8 Apr 91 15:15:45 GMT

Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

 

IO92237 at MAINE.BITNET writes:

> From: IO92237 at MAINE.BITNET

> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

> Subject: Forge Welding Helm Bars, Swept Hilts?

>

> The shop in which I do my armouring has recently been equiped with a forge

> capable of raising bars to welding heat.  We have no access to gas/arc

> welders, and personally, I don't like the looks of that type of weld. I am

> also interested in forge welding for more authentic armour and weapon

> manufacture.

 

Vivat...

> Can anyone tell me the strenth of a good forge weld as compared to arc or

> gas welds?

 

My understanding is that a forge weld actually makes two pieces of metal

one piece.  As opposed to an arc or gas weld, which "glues" the two

pieces together - I suppose that if you are using good technique and

materials, it is conceivable that you could make an arc or gas weld

stronger than the original metal.... But, I'd stick with the forge weld,

if I had both the patience and access.

> How hard is it to tell if you've successfully made a good weld?

 

Real easy - can you tell where one piece starts and the other begins?

If you can - your weld hasn't taken - This is usually due to poor flux,

too light a strike, or the metal wasn't hot enough to begin with.

 

> Can anyone tell me of anyone who has made forge welded face guards for

> SCA usable helms?

>

> I'm also interested in welding bars for a swept-hilt, non-combat-legal

> rapier.

>

> Any input about this stuff or recommendations as to whom I should get

> in contact with would be met with much thankage!

>

> For now,

> Antonio Gattoneri (known as Izzo)

 

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.

:griff at anvil.intel.com

:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir

 

 

From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)

Date: 10 Apr 91 15:36:38 GMT

Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

 

amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes:

> From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)

> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

> Subject: Re: Forge Welding Helm Bars, Swept Hilts?

>

> Also, with practice, you can "feel" a forge weld happen if you've done it

> right.  Very satisfying.

very true - And There is NOTHING like the feel of soft metal under

a well placed hammer blow...:-)

 

Reminds me of when I did one of my earliest welds...I was "playing"

with a forge at my local community college, setting up for a weld

on a poker.  Well, this forge was next to one of the buildings where

several students would go by, and whenever we'd fire it up, we'd

gather a crowd.... well, I had about a dozen folks standing around

watching.  Parachute pants were in fashion at the time, which are

made from nylon (ie. melts easily...) got the picture? Well, I

told them all to get back from the anvil, because sparks were going

to fly.  They stepped back a bit, and I told them again, and they

took another step back - they were now about 4 feet away - Well,

they were in college, they were told.... BANG!  a line of little

holes, knee high, all around me....:-) fortunately, I held a hammer

in one hand and a glowing hot poker in the other.....:-) :-)

 

> Arwen                                                 <amanda at visix.com>

> Scribe at Small

 

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.

:griff at anvil.intel.com

:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir

 

 

From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Richard Griffith)

Date: 19 Apr 91 15:07:15 GMT

Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR

 

00mjstum at bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum) writes:

> From: 00mjstum at bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum)

> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

> Subject: Re: Butted Mail

>

> While we're on this thread, can someone explain how "welding" was done

> in period?  I've found many texts describing the practice of riveting, but

> never welding...

> --

>    .                  /                | Matt Stum

>   . .                /                 | 00MJSTUM at BSUVAX1.BITNET

> |/-\/-\ |/-\ |/-\   /    |/-\ |/-\/-\  | 00MJSTUM at bsu-ucs.bsu.edu

> |  /  / |  / |  /   \__/ |  / |  /  /  |

>         |    |           |             | Ball State University, Muncie IN USA

>         |    |           |/\/          | VAX Systems Programmer

 

Greetings! - Milord, have you ever seen a forge-weld done? A magnificent

sight, to say the least....  You take both pieces to be welded, (or

lap the two ends of the chain link (:-)  Brush them off and place in

a good "clean" coal fire.  Heat until just before the metal starts to

"burn" - yes, iron will burn, if you get it hot enough - you can tell

this because it will start throwing sparks around... At that point, the

surface of the metal is molten - now STRIKE!  (watch the sparks fly!)

Keep striking - more, more.... ok, now, if everything went well, you

now have one piece of metal where once there was two....

 

                      That's just about it...

 

                                  - Cyrus

 

:Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore.

:griff at anvil.intel.com

:SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir

 

 

From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds

Date: 3 Jan 1997 06:42:43 GMT

 

Bill Franchini of billf at total.net says...

<SNIP>

>One major stumbling block in all our work is forge welding,

>specifically that of small pieces such as they are found on rapier

>hilts.

<SNIP>

>My feeling is that the flux I use is the culrpit.My flux consists of

>anhydrous borax (borax melted and crushed).

 

I was taught that with a good reducing fire, no flux was necessary. I have

welded mild steel without a flux.

 

>The other problem is the loss of heat on small pieces. Often, by the

>time I reach the anvil the piece is well below welding heat

 

Having the anvil close to the fire is obviously useful... :-). When I was

taught, it was impressed on me that the anvil should be placed close enough

that a single ste, or preferably just a turn was the best distance away...

 

>I would also appreciate some help on how to build a proper welding

>fire. I keep getting conflicting information and whenever I talk to a

>smith I am usually told that the best welding fire is an Oxi-Acetilene

>torch! Great but this is not what I want. Clearly the art of fine

>welding seems to be somewhat forgotten!

 

A small charcoal fire's the way to go...

(quote from a piece of filk)... ;-)

 

If the fire hole is not deep enough, you cannot get a reducing area in

there. The reducing fire has a deficit of oxygen, and will help to prevent

any surface oxidation, assisting a good weld.

 

>We work with a bellows-fed fire box of approximately 14"L x 6"W x

>3"Deep. The bellows is  double action and feeds about 180 liters of

>air with a seven second downstroke. We can force more air and increase

>the pressure if needed.

 

Too much air will give you an oxidising fire which will utterly prevent a

good weld.

 

If your coal is high in sulphur, forget it... also if there are high levels

of other impurities in the coal, you may have problems.

 

I seem to remember from my research that charcoal was the period method.

You can also use hardwood chips, which then charcoalise IN the fire, so

that you are effectively using charcoal.

 

Perhaps the Good Dr Hrisoulas could be persuaded to give some advice if he

is still watching this thread... :-)

--

rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/

 

 

From: Woody <webersol at epix.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:46:03 -0800

 

Yuo should be using a reducing fire ,very little air and a hood to hold

the heat. coal will work if you use a good antracite. bituminous should

be reduced to coke, much like making charcoal. charcoal was the popular

method.

 

as for a flux, try using a good white sand, it seems to give a better

weld. borax was an unknown in period.

 

the real trick is practice-practice and more practice.

 

the steel you are trying to weld also has a lot to do with if it works.

modern high carbon stuff is hard to work with, it burns and won't weld.

as for an acetelene torch, a big rosebud with a reducing flame works.

stop by your library and read one of the handbooks on gas welding to

find out about reducing and burning flames and their colours.

for small work, an anvil close to your forge (small one) heated to a hot

but not red condition will help hold the heat in small items.

actual gas welding was done in period using the gasses from reducing

charcoal or coal using a clay nozzle and a bellows to feed air to the

mix.BE CAREFULL this system will backfire and explode if you force too

much air.

 

there is a book that can be found sometimes at old book shops it is the

AUDELLS BLACKSMITHING HANDBOOK and was published in the early part of

this century and reprinted at least once.

The big problem about blacksmithing is that this was a trade handed down

to your apprentice and not put in books.

The last blacksmith I knew died at the age of 97 and I wish I would have

paid more attention to what he tried to show me. This was 25 years ago

and I thought I would never use that stuff, but now Sigmund der

Messershmid is born or was 5 years ago.I have made and presented many

blades to people in our shire using mostly traditional methods but

modern steels.

 

If I can be of assistance , just let me know

 

webersol at epix.net

Sigmund der Messershmid

Shire of Eisental

Kingdom of the east

 

 

From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Forge Welding flux recipe ala Atar

Date: 26 Jan 1997 18:46:32 GMT

 

Greetings all:

 

I have been deluged by requests so I figure that I will simply post this.

 

The below flux recipe I have used for the last 15 years..everyone that has

tried it calls is steel glue.  All ingredients are to be finely powdered

and well mixed.

 

5 parts Anhydrous Borax

2 parts powder Boric Acid

2 parts Flourspar (calcium flouiride)

1 1/2 parts powdered red iron oxide

1/2 part powdered Sal Amoniac

1/2 part non iodized Salt

 

Mix well and keep in an air tight container as this mixute is hydroscopic.

Now this is a very active and agressive flux and will destroy most

refactory materials...

 

This works well in a coal fire, but best in LPG..  I have used this to

weld everything from wrought iron to stainless steels in a forge..I even

managed to get Stellite to forge weld, but I will never do that again...

 

If anyone has any questions about this please e-mail direct

 

Atar, Baron Bakhtar, OL

aka

Dr JP Hrisoulas

 

 

From: jklessig at slip.net

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Forge Welding flux recipe ala Atar

Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:13:39 GMT

 

markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:

 

And I will give my approximate answers

>jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas) wrote:

>...

>> The below flux recipe I have used for the last 15 years..everyone that has

>> tried it calls is steel glue.  All ingredients are to be finely powdered

>> and well mixed.

>...

>> Mix well and keep in an air tight container as this mixute is hydroscopic.

 

>Meaning what? That it attracts water?

 

Yes.  Pure table salt (without a drying agent added) is an example, it

will pull moisture out of the air and clump up. The little silica Gel

drying packets often put in with cameras and electronic equipment are

another example where this effect is used.

 

>>  Now this is a very active and agressive flux and will destroy most

>> refactory materials...

 

>Meaning what? That you need to keep it in something special?

 

Meaning that it will eat away at your forge liner, walls etc. At low

temps  it would sort of be like putting crushed ice in a castle made

out of sugar cubes. Nothing much happens. But heat it up to lukewarm

or boiling water, and poof, no more sugar cubes.

 

>> This works well in a coal fire, but best in LPG.. I have used this to

>> weld everything from wrought iron to stainless steels in a forge..I even

>> managed to get Stellite to forge weld, but I will never do that again...

 

>What is "Stellite"?

A cobalt based alloy, used for woodworking tools among other things.

Actually it apparently is a brand name, like jello, for a range of

cobalt based alloys.

 

Chandra

 

<the end>



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