blacksmithing-msg - 2/10/12

Blacksmithing, forges, tools.

NOTE: See also the files: blksm-anvils-msg, casting-msg, blksm-forges-msg, blksm-welding-msg, bladesmithing-msg, charcoal-msg, bellows-msg, Mkng-Charcoal-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Tales
Date: 28 Aug 1995 22:59:29 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

How about a few tales of the *good* things that went on at XXIIII?

I'll start with the tale of the Lady and the Caltrop
(all names removed to hopefully prevent me from 
 finding a caltrop in my bed *next* pennsic)


It was Pennsic XXIIII and it was hot; so hot that the idea of working with
the 9 pound sledge over a yellow hot piece of iron lacked it's customary
savor during the day and night fell quickly after dusk cooled us off.
Yet we still did manage to work in some forging, pattern welding, bronze
casting, iron smelting,...just not as much as we would have liked and a lot
more sweat dripping from our facial features than we did like!

Be that as it may, one evening a lady came into our camp and professed
a desire to forge a caltrop--just because she liked the word and had
need of one for a special purpose.  Now a caltrop is an 
anti-personnel/anti-equine item basically composed of four iron points
arranged so that no matter how it landed 1 point was always up and
available for stepping on. (She also mentioned being bothered
by folk from the camp behind her's cutting through her camp disturbing
her repose...) But we wouldn't suspect so charming and gracious a lady
of even envisioning such a medieval method of dealing with the
problem....Well we're smiths; so we did suspect and even offered advice
on empirical methods of checking a caltrop out... (once the caltrops go up
who cares where they come down--thats not my department he says...)

Well the first one did not fare too well due to a 3 smith mixed
scrap pile---who would have thought that that strap stock would be
high carbon? When the smith-on-duty cooled off part of the proto-caltrop
to allow our guest to work on another section, the first hammer blow
resulted in the dreaded *plink* of a piece of hardened steel becoming
2 or more pieces.  It now being some time past full dark we regretfully 
called it quits.

Another blazing day went by and in the gloaming the Caltropstress once again
found our camp and asked the two tired smiths on hand, (we had been working
during the hot hours), for another go.  We were hot and tired and dryed
out so we had to say "Of Course!"; but this time would be real, this would 
be proper no more mild steel and coal and a London pattern anvil.
This time it would be wrought iron and charcoal and a stake anvil!

And so the epic began, (the Kaltropschmidtenlied).  Our guest quickly
mastered the basics of forging wrought iron, (work it *HOT* especially
in the lower grades such as we were using), and we could relax and talk
and offer suggestions.  The difficulty she ran into was her training
as a silversmith had fostered the habit of choking way up on a hammer
and being gentle with the metal.  This has a tendency to result in the
lack of hair on the knuckles due to close proximity with glowing iron
and an almost infinite number of heats required to shape a more
recalcitraint material.  Working by the light of the forge fire and
the glowing metal itself adds another complication to the process.

The heats occurred but I remembered to forget asking about knuckle hair
*never* rile the person with the glowing iron and the hammer!  

All went well and the lady and her caltrop were escorted to her camp
around 12:45 am.  In daylight we discovered that the web had been
a bit too long and a bit too cold, (work it *hot*, you want the
iron silicates semi-molten!), when the twist had been done and
the caltrop had a tear in the web; but caltrops were supposed to be
quick and dirty and cheap since to use them you threw them away!
This caltrop was quite within the usable, (though my chiergeon friends
didn't mention any caltrop calamaties amongst the myriad of foot
failures at the war...) and fit well with her special purpose of
entering the open A&S catagory of Metal--Martial..

wilelm the smith
answering "what did you do during the war Daddy?"


From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 17 Dec 1996 00:07:01 -0700
Organization: Intel Corporation

Joe Stubenrauch <yeti at linex.com> wrote: 
:         I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  However, the
: local area I am in is devoid of SCA black-smith's (and indeed, smith's at 
: all).  So, I am whisking off to the library to do some more research.  
 
:         3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
:                 any others that I need?
:         4) Would a pair of bellows and the old barbaque work as a smith?

Don't know.  I've only ever bought tools.  Hammers and grinders and
buffers seem to be usually bought.  Tongs seem usually made. Most people 
I've seen build a forge using propane tanks and refractory brick.
But like you, I mainly just watch the hot-work.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tip* at ai.chem.ohiou.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Organization: Ohio University
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 02:19:49 GMT

In article <E2J4r9.7rB at linex6.linex.com>, yeti at linex.com (Joe Stubenrauch)
wrote:
>         I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  However, the
> local area I am in is devoid of SCA black-smith's (and indeed, smith's at 
> all).  So, I am whisking off to the library to do some more research.

Good...  and then look in the BIP to find various books that your library
almost certainly won't carry.  One way to find a couple of good books, AND
support a good organization, is to call up Colonial Williamsbergs
bookstore, and order whatever they have on smithing...  I was there a few
months ago, and everything they had was a keeper.
  
>         However, the books I have encountered there are a little out of date
> (published in the 50's and 60's) and don't have all the info that I need.

Um, blacksmithing has not really changed all that much since the 50's... 
1850s.

>         3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
>                 any others that I need?

Forge, anvil, several hammers, and a few tongs.  After that, it's make your
own.  Mind you, making your own swage blocks is not "fun", unless you think
that figuring out how to wrestle 50 pound blocks of red hot iron is "fun". 
I've done it... it wasn't "fun".  

Tom


From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 17 Dec 1996 08:35:04 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

Tom Perigrin wrote:
>
>Um, blacksmithing has not really changed all that much since the 50's... 
>1850s.

I am assuming this is a joke here since Blacksmithing had a major change
between the 1850's and now.  This is the change from Wrought Iron to 
mild steel.  Anyone interested in historical ironwork should be aware
of the differences in materials and that they are worked *quite* differently.

Work wrought like 1018 and watch it fray, work 1018 or esp A36 like
wrought and watch it spark---blame it on Bessemer (and others).

You may want to research Abraham Darby who pioneered the use of
coal to smelt iron, the puddling process, the direct and indirect
process of making wrought iron, crucible steel, the stuckoffen (sp),
the catalan forge, the use of charcoal to smelt and forge iron, etc
(note: some of this is post 1600 but can help one understand why
what we do today may differ from what our forebearers did.

wilelm the smith


From: jhrisoulas at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 17 Dec 1996 18:22:19 GMT

Greetings:

Since I know a little bit about this stuff let me see if I can help out a
bit:

First what makes you think that the books from the 1950-60's are
outdated??
After all this craft goes back to day 1 of the Iron Age.. Techniques
haven't changed all that much.. Granted any suppliers listed in these
books may be dated, but evrything else will pretty much be viable.

What information are you lacking?? Please be specific.

As far as anvils: Good luck....Back in the "Goode Olde Days" you could
find a decent anvil and expect to pay about $1.00 US per lb...Now..the sky
is the limit. I have seen new anvils costing more than filet mignon.. Best
be: hit your local flea markets and swap meets...

Better yet get ahold of your nearest ABANA (Artisit Blacksmith Association
of North America) chapter and they should be able to help you out...

In all fairness there are several really decent books out ther that can
show you basic set up all the way up to advance pattern welding
techniques..(I should know...as I wrote most of them...)

Anyway if you have any other questions please by all means e-mail direct
as this way we will not tie up band width..

Your Servant,

Atar Bakhtar
aka
Dr JP Hrisoulas


From: jaeger at 3lefties.com (Eric Kervina)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:25:54 -0700
Organization: INET of New Mexico

In article <E2J4r9.7rB at linex6.linex.com>, yeti at linex.com says...
>         I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  

If you live near a rural area, you might check out estate auctions.  I 
have seen a few anvils go for as little as $50.  They are not commonly to 
be found, though. 

>         3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
>                 any others that I need?

That varies depending on your skill, but you absolutely need 
something to use as tongs and a hammer.  I would recommend buying all the 
tools you can afford, and building new ones as you gain skill.

>         4) Would a pair of bellows and the old barbaque work as a smith?

Not likely.  The heat you will be dealing with would destroy a barbeque 
grill in a very short time.

>         Any information and tips on getting started will be appreciated,
> seeing as I have little knowledge on the subject (other than watching the
> smiths at Williamsburg for hours on end).

Many colleges offer metalworking classes, usually under the art 
department.  That is a good place to start, since they have all the 
equipment already, and you can find out if you actually like smithing 
without pouring all of your money into it.  Also, why not ask one of the 
smiths at Williamsburg to teach you?  Most people are more than happy to 
spread their knowledge.
  

From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 17 Dec 1996 03:40:30 GMT

In article <E2J4r9.7rB at linex6.linex.com>, of Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:18:45 
GMT, Joe Stubenrauch of yeti at linex.com says...
>        I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  However, the
>local area I am in is devoid of SCA black-smith's (and indeed, smith's at 
>all).  So, I am whisking off to the library to do some more research. 

Try the knifemaking magizines. You could try contacting the armourers thru 
the SCA web pages, and see if you get any pointers to books, organisations 
there. Do web searches...

>   However, the books I have encountered there are a little out of date
>(published in the 50's and 60's) and don't have all the info that I need.

Often, the older the better. Just find more books.

>        3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
>                any others that I need?

A basic basher, and a basic holder. You may have useful thingies in the 
garage...

Some basic cutting thingies (cold chisel, punch etc) may also be useful.

Safety equipment such as safety goggles (including the gas welding type 
with flip down brightness filters), good leather gloves/gauntlets, good 
boots, usefully a leather apron (can make yourself) a cap to stop cenders 
setting fire to your hair (personal experience here) is a must.

Your allegedly "out of date" books, if any good, should should you how to 
make your first pair of tongs. It is for good reason that this is usually 
the first project... Once you can make basic tongs, you can shape the ends 
to hold flats, rounds, wierd shapes and sizes. You can start with multi 
grips and a claw hammer to make your first tongs...

You can make hammers, but they should be made from a good high carbon type 
steel, which is less easy to work than soft iron, for you can burn it, 
thus weakening it. You need a punch to open up the hole. Keep quenching 
the punch in water frequently, or you will "cook" it and lose the 
hardness, making it useless.
 
Hammers: a whole art in itself, the right type will speed the job.
(a) flat surface type essential (planishing)
(b) round ball type used for hot and cold dishing
(c) the type that looks like a wedge can be used to thin sections quickly.

Heavier ones can speed some tasks, but you can get better control with a 
slightly smaller hammer. The weight does the work, not your muscles... but 
you can force it a bit.

Access to a welder is useful. You can forge weld, but the stick is faster, 
and untill you get the skill, makes a reliable weld. When making the 
tongs, use only shortish thicker lengths, and you can weld thinner longer 
handles on later. This is useful, so you don't need to spend time thinning 
the handles. OK, not a period techinique, but you could forge weld the 
thinner handles on if you insist... :-)

>        Any information and tips on getting started will be appreciated,
>seeing as I have little knowledge on the subject (other than watching the
>smiths at Williamsburg for hours on end).  

Watching a good smith work can be as educational as watching a good cook 
work, but if you have no background technical knowledge, it just looks 
like magic. If there is no one locally you can talk to and work with, then 
read everything you can. You will soon start to sort out the rubbish, for 
it will not be consistent among the sources.

I believe smithing (and pottery) is the source of the Earth, air, fire and 
water theories of alchemy. The chinese also use metal in their theories.

The coal or (charcoal) is the earth (as is the slag remaining). The air, 
water and fire are obvious. You can poison the metal from the earth if 
there are impurities such as sulphur in the coal.

Play with the fire for a time and you will find your eyes opened... :-)

These notes were just done on the spur of the moment, hope they help. I 
have covered a lot of ground... Alas I am in Australia, so I doubt if you 
will get to watch me... ;-)

Robin


From: "James D. Logan/Jane Sitton-Logan" <hammer at mail.startext.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 08:03:24 -0800

Robin Hayes wrote:
> In article <E2J4r9.7rB at linex6.linex.com>, of Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:18:45
> GMT, Joe Stubenrauch of yeti at linex.com says...
> >
> >        I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  However,
> the
> >local area I am in is devoid of SCA black-smith's (and indeed, smith's at
> >all).  So, I am whisking off to the library to do some more research.
> 
> Try the knifemaking magizines. You could try contacting the armourers thru
> the SCA web pages, and see if you get any pointers to books, organisations
> there. Do web searches...
> 
> >        However, the books I have encountered there are a little out of
> date
> >(published in the 50's and 60's) and don't have all the info that I need.
> 
> Often, the older the better. Just find more books.

> >        3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
> >                any others that I need?
> 
> A basic basher, and a basic holder. You may have useful thingies in the
> garage...

Listen to this guy and he will get you hurt. Do not under any circumstances start out with a hammer of over 2 lbs. Laarge hammers move a lot of metal but only if your arm has had a few years practice building and rebuilding the ligiments that 
tie your arm together. Start out too large and you can damage yourself. Just get yourself several sizes of ballpean hammers and a blacksmiths or
crosspean hammer of *NO MORE THAN 2 LBS.*

> Some basic cutting thingies (cold chisel, punch etc) may also be useful.
> 
> Safety equipment such as safety goggles (including the gas welding type
> with flip down brightness filters), good leather gloves/gauntlets, good
> boots, usefully a leather apron (can make yourself) a cap to stop cenders
> setting fire to your hair (personal experience here) is a must.

This is good I like this.

> Your allegedly "out of date" books, if any good, should should you how to
> make your first pair of tongs. It is for good reason that this is usually
> the first project... Once you can make basic tongs, you can shape the ends
> to hold flats, rounds, wierd shapes and sizes. You can start with multi
> grips and a claw hammer to make your first tongs...

Vise grips are good for this as they can be set to the width of the material 
that you will be working.

> You can make hammers, but they should be made from a good high carbon type
> steel, which is less easy to work than soft iron, for you can burn it,
> thus weakening it. You need a punch to open up the hole. Keep quenching
> the punch in water frequently, or you will "cook" it and lose the
> hardness, making it useless.

This is somewhat deceptive advice as it will require a punch and then a drift
that are sized in relation to the size of hammer handle you wish to use.

> Hammers: a whole art in itself, the right type will speed the job.
> (a) flat surface type essential (planishing)
> (b) round ball type used for hot and cold dishing
> (c) the type that looks like a wedge can be used to thin sections quickly.
> 
> Heavier ones can speed some tasks, but you can get better control with a
> slightly smaller hammer. The weight does the work, not your muscles... but
> you can force it a bit.

Obviously hasn't hammered much.
 
> Access to a welder is useful. You can forge weld, but the stick is faster,
> and untill you get the skill, makes a reliable weld. When making the
> tongs, use only shortish thicker lengths, and you can weld thinner longer
> handles on later. This is useful, so you don't need to spend time thinning
> the handles. OK, not a period techinique, but you could forge weld the
> thinner handles on if you insist... :-)

Actually welding on lighter guage reins was the period technique. Welders can
be used to fabricate your tools and equip.  Generally though you should not 
use them on "period work" but there are those who will disagree about this but
you will have to judge their work for yourself.

> You can make a "hole" in the fuel, or you can "tent over" and make a more
> covered in space. Both have their uses, experiment slowly and carefully.
> the tent is better for welding. The depth in the fire affects whether you
> are in the oxidising or reducing zone. Read, read, read.
> 
> >        Any information and tips on getting started will be appreciated,
> >seeing as I have little knowledge on the subject (other than watching the
> >smiths at Williamsburg for hours on end).
> 
> Watching a good smith work can be as educational as watching a good cook
> work, but if you have no background technical knowledge, it just looks
> like magic. If there is no one locally you can talk to and work with, then
> read everything you can. You will soon start to sort out the rubbish, for
> it will not be consistent among the sources.

If you will talk to these guys a little they will demonstrate any number of 
smithing techniques during the course of a day. Like and production forge they
have work to do and may do the same operation over and over. Thee are several 
good smiths in Williamsburg and watching them will be a valuable experience.
Ask them about ABANA or other blacksmithing groups in your area.

> I believe smithing (and pottery) is the source of the Earth, air, fire and
> water theories of alchemy. The chinese also use metal in their theories.
> 
> The coal or (charcoal) is the earth (as is the slag remaining). The air,
> water and fire are obvious. You can poison the metal from the earth if
> there are impurities such as sulphur in the coal.
> 
> Play with the fire for a time and you will find your eyes opened... :-)
> 
> These notes were just done on the spur of the moment, hope they help. I
> have covered a lot of ground... Alas I am in Australia, so I doubt if you
> will get to watch me... ;-)
> 
> Robin

I won't comment on the metaphysical aspects of blacksmithing at this time but 
it can be spiritual if you pay attention.

Walk gently on the face of the Earth our mother.

Laird Seamus Donnacadh Loganaich an gabhain
Or Logan the smith for those with nae Gaedhlig.


From: dwbutler at mtu.edu (Daniel W. Butler-Ehle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 16 Dec 1996 20:47:44 -0500
Organization: Michigan Technological University

Joe Stubenrauch (yeti at linex.com) wrote:

:         3) What tools are absolutely necessary to buy in order to make
:                 any others that I need?

Well, theoretically, all you need is a hammer. With it, you can make 
chisels. With chisels, you can make files. With files, you can make 
saws. (You get the picture.)
It really depends on what you're trying to do. For some jobs, you can 
get around not having fullers and swages; for others, there essential.

Are you more comfortable with clamps and tongs or vises?
Do you need to cut or just pound or bend?
Do you have a good drill? Will you even need one?

:         Any information and tips on getting started will be appreciated,
: seeing as I have little knowledge on the subject (other than watching the
: smiths at Williamsburg for hours on end).  

I made some of my armouring tools years ago with just a handheld propane
torch. Believe it or not, a propane torch can get a railroad spike up
passed bright cherry red.

Ulfin


From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 22 Dec 1996 07:25:54 GMT

If you are seeking a more modern book on smithing, I can recommend 
_Beginning Blacksmithing with Projects_ by Jim Converse.  It's a 1986 
publication (ISBN 0 8306 0451 0) available for under $20.  My copy was 
given to me by a smith I taught leatherwork.  I'm only moderately 
interested in smithy per se, but the techniques have been invaluable for 
improving my nonferrous metalwork.

What this book recommends for basic tools is as follows:
2-1/2# crosspeen hammer
1# ballpeen hammer
large pair of straight jawed locking pliers (which the author later 
states won't last, but will get you through making your first set of 
tongs)
hacksaw
forge
anvil
vise
safety gear (apron, goggles, etc)

The book includes plans for everything from shop layout to several forge 
variations.

I hope this is of help...
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org


From: morganh at teleport.com (Morgan Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 24 Dec 1996 16:23:05 GMT
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016

Just to add my $0.02 on this thread:

Anvils -- been pretty well covered.  For now, the $50 harbor freight
will get somebody going.  It'll break up, yes, but will get a beginner
started.  RR anvil is OK, but lack of a hardy hole is a problem.  For
the really hard core -- see the rec.crafts.metalworking resource page
and see how to build your own!

Used anvils -- best possiblity, lotsa luck.

Tools -- grab any tongs you find.  Vice-grip type pliers will help to
make some tongs, but tong making should be a priority.  Make some small
tongs out of 3/8" square to figure out how.  Use them to make some from
1/2" square and 5/8"  -- by then, you'll know what's going on.

Hammers -- find about a 2 lb cross pien, a couple of ball pien hammers.
Try looking for hammer heads in a 2nd hand store or flea market.  You're
going to have to learn how to put handles on things.  Learn now.

Vise -- blacksmith's post vise is best.  If you have to use a
machinist's vise, get a BIG one.  You'll break it fast if it's small, a
bit later if it's big.  If it's a machinist's vise, figure that it's
disposable.

Basic advice:  Improvise.  Use your imagination and ingenuity.  If
you're going to do much smithing, you'll be needing every bit of
ingenuity you can come up with.  You'll need to be able to figure out
what tools you need, then make them -- perhaps making the tools to make
them.  Keep alert, try to learn from mistakes (no, you can't make a
frammis that way, but it'd be a way to make a doohickey) and ask
questions.  Don't look for canned answers.  If you ask me to teach you
soemthing, I will.  Remember, it's my way of doing something.  Yours
will probably be different and better for you.  Learn my way, Joe's way,
Sam's way and evolve your own way.  When Nick shows you his way, you may
change your way.

Good luck, and godspeed.

Morgan de Comyn (Morgan Hall)
Piper and Blacksmith to Clan Hubert

morganh at teleport.com


From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: 25 Dec 1996 01:26:10 GMT

In article <E2J4r9.7rB at linex6.linex.com>, of Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:18:45 GMT, 
Joe Stubenrauch of yeti at linex.com says...
>        I have a keen and developing interest in blacksmithing.  

U.S.W.

I mentioned a book called 
"Edge of the Anvil"
I found my copy.

Edge of the Anvil - a resource book for the blacksmith
Jack Andrews
with a portfolio of Samuel Yellin's work
Intermediate Technology Publications 1991 (London)
(c) 1977, 1991
ISBN 1 85339 097 6

There is a 3 page index. Starting with things like Lighting, it goes thru 
all the tools and equipment including how to make most of them. It has a 
section on safety, coal, iron, etc

There are details on the various processes, making bluing solutions, table 
of masses of various size bar, etc

About 50 pages are dedicted to B&W photos of Sam Yellin's test pieces from 
his museum. Some of these look like they were made from plastecine, not 
steel... :-) 

It was one of the recommended books for the TAFE course I did. In the 
opinion of those who have read the book, it is one of the best, compact, 
extensive guides available. Definitely worth a look from a library, if you 
don't want to buy, but it is a good reference book.

Cost in Australia was AU$75.00

And a Merry Festival of the Jolly Fat Man to all...
Robin


From: markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:31:10 -0600
Organization: Motorola

Greetings from Stefan li Rous,

Those looking for information on Blacksmithing might want to try to find
a copy of this book:

"The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex W. Bealer, Castle Books, P.O Box
7100, Edison, NJ 08818. ISBN 0-7858-0395-5.

438 pages. line diagrams and sketches.

I've only skimed the book so far, but it has pictures of different
medieval anvils and cross-sectional drawings of different bellows.
I had been looking for info on bellows previously and asked here
on the Rialto. Several people gave me good descriptions but here
I have actual drawings.

It also gives directions on making various tools, for blacksmithing
and other metal work.

I bought my copy at Half-Price Books for $10.

Stefan
-- 
Ld. Stefan li Rous     Barony of Bryn Gwlad        Ansteorra
Per pale gules and or, a ram's head caboshed, counterchanged 
  Mark S. Harris    markh at risc.sps.mot.com     Austin, TX


Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 09:46:35 +0000
From: Bill Franchini <billf at total.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds

Greetings from Guilelmo D'Este at Happy Castle Forge.
Glad to see that there still is a lot of interest in smithing and 
such, in spite of all the plastic armour and aluminum (hugh!) 
displayed at our events! 

Happy Castle Forge has been in existence for almost four years now 
and, through trial and error, both Angus and myself are producing 
decent blades and plate armour using period methods as much as time 
and money reasonably permits.

One major stumbling block in all our work is forge welding, 
specifically that of small pieces such as they are found on rapier 
hilts.

I recently visited an Austrian armour exhibit in Ottawa and was amazed 
by the complexity of the welding on hilts.
Whenever I try I usually either burn the metal or manage to get a half 
weld which looks like a lump of slag.
In larger pieces (spear-heads) this does not matter since I usually 
start with lots of excess material, but on rapier hilts this is 
another matter!

My feeling is that the flux I use is the culrpit.My flux consists of 
anhydrous borax (borax melted and crushed).
The other problem is the loss of heat on small pieces. Often, by the 
time I reach the anvil the piece is well below welding heat

I would also appreciate some help on how to build a proper welding 
fire. I keep getting conflicting information and whenever I talk to a 
smith I am usually told that the best welding fire is an Oxi-Acetilene 
torch! Great but this is not what I want. Clearly the art of fine 
welding seems to be somewhat forgotten!

We work with a bellows-fed fire box of approximately 14"L x 6"W x 
3"Deep. The bellows is  double action and feeds about 180 liters of 
air with a seven second downstroke. We can force more air and increase 
the pressure if needed.

The forge has a beautiful brick chimney with a gothic arch opening at 
the fire-box level (beauty has its place even in a forge!).

Guilelmo D'Este


From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Smithing
Date: 9 Jan 1997 00:26:28 GMT
Organization: Power Up

Traditional British Crafts
ISBN 0 86283 7537

p 235 contains a medieval manuscript illustration of a medieval smithy at 
work, including the forge and anvil and bellows... :-)

Bodleian library, Oxford, MS Bodley 264 f.84 235
-- 
rhayes at powerup.com.au  http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/


From: jscott at henge.com (jds)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.org.sca
Subject: Blacksmithing
Date: 9 Jan 1997 05:41:54 GMT

I just read somebody talking abou a wanting to build a forge, etc. There 
is a TV show called Forge & Anvil sort of a this old house type thing 
(from their home page I haven't seen it).

Look at www.gactr.uga.edu/FORGE/index.html for more info.

CRScott takezo at henge.com


From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Smithing
Date: 10 Jan 1997 07:11:34 GMT

In article <5b1dvk$5n6$2 at grissom.powerup.com.au>, of 9 Jan 1997 00:26:28 
GMT, Robin Hayes of rhayes at powerup.com.au says...

<Details of Book Snipped>

Found another one...

The Blacksmith - Ironworker & Farrier
Aldren A. Watson 1977-1990
W W Norton & Co
ISBN 0-393-30683-6

The book talks a lot about New England.

On P129-P146 Chapter 11,
There are full drawings and plans to make a 19C (similar to period style) 
double chamber bellows about 4 1/2 ft long and 3 ft in diameter, including 
how to mount the pole lever.

On P153 , There are some details about charcoal burning.
~~~~~
What was that traditional food I mentioned? 
> And don't forget the traditional dish of charcoal burners which has given 
> its name to a variety of pasta... :-)

I am afraid that I also have been unsuccessful in finding my documentation.

Pasta Carbonara.

Also Quiche Carbonara.

Basically Ham and Eggs. The traditional Continental Charcoal Burners foods, 
brought out from the village each day. If I find my documentation again, I 
will forward it on... :-)

Robin
-- 
rhayes at powerup.com.au  http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/
The Virtual Fooles Troupe: http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm


From: Woody <webersol at epix.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:46:03 -0800

<snip>

there is a book that can be found sometimes at old book shops it is the
AUDELLS BLACKSMITHING HANDBOOK and was published in the early part of
this century and reprinted at least once.
The big problem about blacksmithing is that this was a trade handed down
to your apprentice and not put in books.
The last blacksmith I knew died at the age of 97 and I wish I would have
paid more attention to what he tried to show me. This was 25 years ago
and I thought I would never use that stuff, but now Sigmund der
Messershmid is born or was 5 years ago.I have made and presented many
blades to people in our shire using mostly traditional methods but
modern steels.

Also for tempering your products, a molten lead bath was a period way.
lead melts and boils at just the right temperature for tempering steel.
(another be carefull) boiling lead is DANGEROUS do this outdoors and
don't let the EPA know.
If I can be of assistance , just let me know

webersol at epix.net
Sigmund der Messershmid
Shire of Eisental
Kingdom of the east


From: jhrisoulas at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds
Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:31:25 GMT

In article <32D7372B.430 at epix.net>, Woody <webersol at epix.net> writes:
>Also for tempering your products, a molten lead bath was a period way.
>lead melts and boils at just the right temperature for tempering steel.
>(another be carefull) boiling lead is DANGEROUS do this outdoors and
>don't let the EPA know.

Pardon me, but I must interject here. This is one of the most
irresponsible statements as far as the health and well being of others
that I have read in a very long time.  There are enough hazards involved
in doing this that you should NEVER use boiling lead as you can not only
poison yourself but anyone else in the area.

And doing this outdoors is as bad, if not worse than even using the
boiling lead.  I am sorry about this folks but there are far too many
reasons (not to mention common sense) NOT to do this.

Heavy metals poisoning is nothing to laugh about or take lightly.  Boiling
lead is a good way to get yourself dead, or severe nerve damage, and
contaminate the surrounding area as well.

As far as letting the EPA know. I hope they do find out personally.  As
much as I cannot understand the "whys" of most of the EPA regs, I have to
abide by them.  As a professional metalworker I have the EPA, OSHA and
several other govermental agencies pay me a vist several times a year. 
They are there for a reason and if anyone decides to do something as 
dangerous and as negligent as boiling lead, well you deserve everything
that you will get.

Using boiling heavy metals for anything, is hazardous and totally
irresponsible on a "hobbiest" level...

Besides there is NO USE for boiling lead to be used as a tempering medium
as lead boils at 2900 Degrees F anyway and that is at the melting point of
most steels. so using boiling lead is useless.  Even using molten lead
isn't that good an idea as far as blades go as it's liquidus is 620
degrees F and that temperture is more or less useless as most blades are
tempered  below 475 degrees F...Now using a lead/tin alloy will lower
liquidus temp but still this is foolhardy in the extreme...

I am not sorry about coming down this hard and fast on this, as the health
of people  is at issue.  Like I said before, this is hazardous enough
without doing something as stupid as this, just because it's
"period"...What's next? Not using eye protection because safety glasses
"aren't period"???

There is NO REASON to place yourself or anyone else in danger just because
"something's in period"....

Atar, Baron Bakhtar, OL
aka
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Metallographer, Bladesmith, Author


Subject: Re: Forging and metalworking
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 09:52:42 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

This was written to answer a post on SCA-Arts.

Since you're starting out in Metalworking:

Don't forget to get a pair of really good gloves. Good leather can
be smoking while you're still unburned.

As for Books: These three have been reprinted under one title:
The Modern Blacksmith; Recycling, Use, and Repair of Tools;
and The Making of Tools. They are excellent for someone
starting out. They are now called the Complete Modern Blacksmith by
Alexander G. Weygers. # 1432 $19.95 Spring 1998 Catalog. Well worth it.

I didn't see it on the webpage. Folks here have borrowed these books
many times. I suggest you call early in the day as the women answering
the phones quit in the early afternoon to pack orders. Those orders go
out really fast. They sell lots of books on metalworking, brewing,
electronics, woodworking, etc. Catalogs differ as to subject. Be sure
and request the Metalworking one.

Lindsay Publications Inc.
P.O.Box 538, Bradley IL 60915-0538 (815) 935-5353

Lindsay Books: http://www.lindsaybks.com/

Hasluck's Metalworking is a wonderful book and covers many periods.
Hasluck was very prolific around the turn of the century. This one
even covers some ancient and medieval processes including jewelry.
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/hasluck/index.html  Highly recommended.

Hasluck also has separate ones on Woodcarving and Bent Iron Work.
Both of these also tend toward Medieval work in parts.
.........................
Also a newer reprint of Edge of the Anvil by Jack Andrews who works
at the Yellin Forge in Philadelphia. If you've never heard of Samuel
Yellin or read books about him you're missing the top blacksmith in
this century. He once had two hundred smiths working for him.
If you go to Philadelphia you have to call for an appointment with
these folks. The museum is remarkable. Take a very good camera. Put
a Doberman in the car. Not a great neighborhood unless it's changed
considerably. While you're in Philadelphia see the Von Kienbusch
Armor Collection at the Museum of Art.

For this and many other Metalworking books get the catalog from:
Centaur Forge Ltd.
     P.O. Box 340
     117 N. Spring Street
     Burlington, WI 53105-0340
     (414) 763-9175, (414) 763-8350 (FAX)

The 1998 Catalog is $5.00. Request the Books catalog too.

or: http://www.Anvilfire.com/adverts/centaur/centaur.htm

Publications concentrate on forging, blacksmithing, though all aspects
of metalworking are covered. Centaur Forge is the source for
blacksmithing supplies from tongs to furnaces. The books include many
from Europe, especially Germany.
......................

One really good book, if you can borrow it, is The Village Blacksmith
by Aldren Watson. Haven't seen it for sale for at least 10 years. It
does show a great deal about starting out.

Alex Bealer's Art of Blacksmithing is a ongoing favorite and usually
available for about $10 from Barnes and Noble among others. Probably
the _most_ reprinted blacksmithing book.
......................

See the Metalworking FAQ / Compendium at:
http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal/vendors.html
http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal/

http://www.seanet.com/~neilwin/ Blacksmiths' Virtual Junkyard

http://www.webpak.net/~rreil/design.html Forge and Burner Design

http://www.bullhammer.com/thebull.htm Power Hammers and Forges

http://www.abana.org/ Artists and Blacksmiths Association of N. America

http://www.Anvilfire.com/ Anvilfire

You can also bug the folks at: alt.crafts.blacksmithing, not a lot of
posts but serves that community. I understand there is another
newsgroup, or was, that has trolled out, at least for the present.

rec.crafts.metalworking is primarily for machinists/welders but also
does discuss other things as well. Lots of posts.

Try Deja news, the crafts area:
http://x1.dejanews.com/bg.xp?level=rec.crafts
............

M. Magnus Malleus, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia and the GDH
Use permitted _off_ newsgroups, emails, elists or copies permitted.


Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:40:49 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Guild of St Erasmus

Warren & Meredith Harmon wrote:
> Has anybody on the list, especially those who are in the Guild of St
> Erasmus, found any miraculous medals for him?  I've looked in every store
> on the coast, but I had enough bloody trouble finding a Sailor's Cross,
> much less finding the medal.  If anyone knows of a place, please let me
> know.
> 
> Also looking for St Eligius.  Siiiiigh....

Next time you're in Philadelphia call up the Yellin Forge and make
an appointment for a visit to their museum. There is a real statue
of St. Eliquius in it. It's a wonderful place to take a camera.
Once the finest forge in America, with 200 blacksmiths from all over
the world. Very nice folks. Offered me a job on my visit even.
Jack Andrews, I imagine he's still there, has written some books
about Yellin and a fine book called Edge of the Anvil now in it's
second revised edition.

For those who don't know St. Eligius is the patron saint of Blacksmiths.
One of his great miracles was to remove the leg of a troublesome
horse, shoe it, and put it back on.

Magnus
 
> Are miraculous medals period??  I know some are not, but are there some
> that are, or we just left with carrying lead crosses?
> 
> -Caro


Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 03:46:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Jack C. Thompson" <tcl at teleport.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: new titles

Just a note to let people know of four new Caber Press titles:

_Working Horn, Ivory & Tortoiseshell_ by Charles Holtzapffel
reprint from 1843.  48 pages, $10.45 (includes postage).

Also by Holtzapffel:

_Iron & Steel: Forging - Hardening - Tempering_
reprint from 1843.  88 pages, $14.95 (includes postage).

_Leather Work_ by Georges de Recy (trans. by Maude Nathan)
reprint from 1905.  48 pages, $10.45 (includes postage).

_Food Products of the North American Indians_ by Dr. Edward Palmer
reprint from 1870.  56 pages, $10.45 (includes postage).

The last one may seem off topic, but Dr. Palmer was recording the
food gathering and preparation habits of a pre-industrial people
and because of that, it seems to me to be on topic.

Jack

p.s. the Caber Press is part of my conservation lab.

Jack C. Thompson
Thompson Conservation Lab.
7549 N. Fenwick
Portland, Oregon  97217
USA

(503)735-3942 (voice/fax)

http://www.teleport.com/~tcl


From: "asylum" <asylum at us.HSAnet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Blacksmith's Mailing Lists?
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:31:30 -0400

>We have a young friend whom we have "sponsored" into the SCA.  He is very
>interested in blacksmithing and has set up a small forge at his home.  Are
>there any mailing lists for SCA or mundane blacksmiths that I could direct him
>to?
>
>Brangwayna Morgan

He might also pay a worthwhile visit to the Anvilfire website at
www.anvilfire.com and the Blacksmith's Virtual Junkyard at www.keenjunk.com.
There is a lot of good information to be gleaned in both of their forums,
archives, FAQs and other features

Atli Vathason <Bruce Blackistone>
Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith and seasonal Viking ship
captain.


From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Blacksmith's mailing lists?
Date: 17 May 2001 13:11:54 GMT
Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus Ohio

Bronwynmgn <bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam> wrote:
>We have a young friend whom we have "sponsored" into the SCA.  He is very
>interested in blacksmithing and has set up a small forge at his home.  Are
>there any mailing lists for SCA or mundane blacksmiths that I could direct him
>to?
>Brangwayna Morgan

What Atli said!

Also:
www.abana.org is the site for the Artist Blacksmith Association of North 
America---you can go to the chapters list and probably find one close
to where ever you are at (hint if you had listed even a state we might 
have been able to direct you to a local contact blacksmithing as a skill
is more of a hands-on thing until you get the background to profit from the
loose and partial descriptions of the web).

I bring a forge to events in the middle; but sadly do not travel as much as 
I used to; However he is welcome to come over and play/learn anytime we are
at the same event---I'm not a merchant so "down time" doesn't cost me.
(Next event Melee in the Marsh---if I get permission to bring the forge as
I have done in the past)

If they are within a state or two of Ohio; they should try to go to the
Quad-State Blacksmiths Round-Up in Troy OH, in late September.  It's said 
to be the largest annual smithing event in the US with great classes and 
a truly amazing blacksmithing fleamarket area.

wilelm the smith 
-- 
W.Thomas Powers


From: Rick Cook <rcook5 at mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: forging question
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 15:28:56 -0700

Ken Koll aka Lord Valdis of Gotland wrote:
> Am getting into doing some brass and copper work.  Was wondering how to
> forge brass to itself.  Have to shape a few pieces and all I have are some
> brass kickplates. Just the ends change direction and are thicker than what I
> have.  Do I need to prep the work with flux or what?         Thank you for
> any help.
>
> Lord Valdis of Gotland
> PS  I do not have a forge, but I do have a propane torch.

Get some brazing rod from your local hardware store. You can't really weld brass
the way you can forge weld iron, but brazing works very nicely. Make sure the
joint is clean and fits perfectly tight. Note that you'll be limited in what you
can do with a propane torch because of the limited heat output. One help is to
get yourself a pan, such as a metal pan for changing oil in cars, fill it with
clean sand, and embed the parts in that. It not only helps hold the parts in
place but it restricts the heat flow away from the area you're working on.

Oh yeah. You're probably not going to get it right the first or second time. So
practice.

--RC


From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: forging question
Date: 9 Jul 2001 12:02:04 GMT
Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus Ohio

>Am getting into doing some brass and copper work.  Was wondering how to
>forge brass to itself.  Have to shape a few pieces and all I have are some
>brass kickplates. Just the ends change direction and are thicker than what I
>have.  Do I need to prep the work with flux or what?         Thank you for
>any help.

You cannot forgeweld brass, in fact brass is not good for hot forging in
general.  There are several bronzes that forge decently at a very low temp
(only can tell if they are glowing if the room is *completely* dark)

As for fastening several pieces together  you might want to look into 
soldering them with a low or high temp silver solder.  I don't think your 
propane torch will be up to brazing them---also look into mechanical methods,
(riviting, seaming, etc)

Then there is casting...

Thomas


From: "Derral Parkin" <irmaparkin at ev1.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: forging question
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:40:14 -0500

He would be better off with the high temp silver solder since it's do-able
with a propane torch.  However, I highly recommend you head down to Home
Depot what ever home repair shop you have over there and buy yourself a Mapp
Gas torch for roughly $25.  Mapp gas burns high enough to easily melt brass
and/or bronze.  There is also dual torch rig that uses Mapp gas and an equal
size oxygen tank that can cut steel like acetylene (just takes a little
longer) which costs $50.  The oxygen tank burns out pretty quick but it also
cuts and melts brass fast enough that you can economize it if you really
try.  You trash the spent bottles and get new bottles at $7 a bottle.  Quick
and convenient!  I use the regular gas and air mix similar to a standard
propane torch although I've done alot of casting with it.   Now as far a
forging goes you really have to be more specific.  You can cold forge brass
pretty easily up to a point.  If you're talking about billet sized chunks
you would have to heat those up to red hot which is somewhat difficult to
see unless you dim the lights a little.  Flux would be used if you were
trying to melt the brass and get it to flow like liquid.  If you are trying
to do some heavy duty forging as with iron I would highly recommend you cast
the objects.


From: Todd Rich <torin at panix.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: forging question
Date: 22 Jul 2001 19:02:07 GMT

Derral Parkin <irmaparkin at ev1.net> wrote:
(snip)
> and/or bronze.  There is also dual torch rig that uses Mapp gas and an equal
> size oxygen tank that can cut steel like acetylene (just takes a little
> longer) which costs $50.  The oxygen tank burns out pretty quick but it also
> cuts and melts brass fast enough that you can economize it if you really
> try.  You trash the spent bottles and get new bottles at $7 a bottle.  Quick
(snorp)

If you are talking about the Bernzomatic setup, the O2 bottles they have 
just aren't worth it.  I took the set I got, cut their 'regulator' off, 
bought a real O2 regulator, and an adapter to the hose ($40 total) and an 
'R' size O2 bottle ($50, refills go for $10-15).  I do moderate 
oxy-propane fired silver soldering with it and a single fill lasted me a 
year (should have been longer, but I let a friend use it to do some 
melting).  Over that same time I probably would have got through at least 
50 of the 'near empty, almost useless' O2 bottles they sell to go with it.  
You do need a regulator that opens up very slowly, as you are not going to 
be using anywhere near the pressures the guages are set for.

                        Torin


From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004  7:08:08 PM US/Central
To: - Authenticity List <authenticity at yahoogroups.com>, - BARONY of WINDMASTERS' HILL <keep at windmastershill.org>, - Dunstan <Dunstan at yahoogroups.com>, - Manx <TheManx at yahoogroups.com>, - Medieval Sawdust <medievalsawdust at yahoogroups.com>, "- Metalcasting at yahoogroups.com" <Metalcasting at yahoogroups.com>, - SCA Arts and Sciences 7/03 <Artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>
Subject: Interesting Blacksmithing Articles

http://www.christopp.co.uk/index.asp
Mary Rose Cannon etc.

http://www.realwroughtiron.com/
The Real Wrought Iron Company.
Previously the last place making it was in Sweden in the 1960's. These people are apparently re-manufacturing old iron. Real wrought Iron is fibrous and has
a percentage of silaceous slag (7% or so) worked back into it after smelting it to give it it's properties.

Magnus


Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:02:51 +1300 (NZDT)
From: "Zane R. V. Bruce" <zane at paradise.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] removing candle wax
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

James Brown wrote:
> Of course Borax has been used to reduce the iron in blacksmith forging.

Wrong word, I think.  Reduction/reduce in the context of iron and smelting
usually indicates a forge fire at depth where the oxygen content is low,
and the main active reductant is carbon monoxide.  When I'm smelting iron,
the carbon monoxide rich atmosphere at the base of the fire just above the
slag bath is crucial to the chemical reduction reaction to strip the last
of the oxygen from the FeO in the slag bath and reduce it to metallic
iron.

Borax comes in when you need a flux for Welding iron in a forge, to
dissolve off the surface scale on your welding surfaces and allow the iron
to weld under hammering.  The flux combines with the oxides on the surface
of the iron (more of a problem if your forge fire is oxidising - oxygen
blast rich, than reducing - carbon monoxide rich) to form a molten glass,
which then squirts out as you hammer the pieces together, removing slag
impurities that would impede the weld.

I usually use a 50/50 borax and silica sand mix.  You can also use pure
borax, or borax/silica/wood ash mixes.  Japanese smiths apparently used
pure straw ash.  Potash will also work.

Iarnulfr.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	blacksmithing-msg	Page 23 of 23