p-butchering-msg - 6/14/01 Medieval meat butchering of hunted or raised animals. How common was the skill. Was it a specific profession? NOTE: See also the files: butchering-msg, butch-goat-art, pig-to-sausag-art, meat-aging-msg, organ-meats-msg, sausage-makng-msg, sausages-msg, horse-recipes-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Stephen Bloch Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Re(2): Re(2): Re(2): SC - mustard history Sue Wensel wrote: > I believe that the common misconception about period food (which I have heard > the opposite -- that period food was fresher than we eat now) is due to the > inability of people to image how food would have been kept without > refridgeration. No one seems to wonder how we discovered such processes as > salt-curing or smoking meat. Yes, salt-curing and smoking were both known and widely used in medieval Europe. But the simplest, and I suspect the most common, method of preserving meat was to keep it ALIVE until shortly before it was to be eaten. Exactly how widespread were butchering equipment and knowhow in medieval Europe? I've always assumed that both were nearly universal, but haven't really looked for evidence. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu From: Gretchen M Beck Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Butchering Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 30-Jun-97 SC - Butchering Uduido at aol.com (1121) > There is really no need to look up the "evidence". We tend to forget that > until the advent of electricity in this century and the advent of canning > in the 19th century people preserved foods in a more traditional manner for > 10's of thousands of years. > Such is also the case for butchering. The advent of the suppermaket ( less > than 75 years) makes some of us think that meat comes all neatly packaged and > never do we give a tho't to the source. In extrapolating period culture > every effort must be made to step away from the modern. There are no > similarities whatsoever between pre-20th century lifestyles and any > lifestyles occuring before then, in any way shape or form. To try and figure > out the cultures and lifestyles of past generations who did not have the > "wizardry" and "magic" that now have by comparing them to our culture is > ludicrous and irrelevant, IMHO. Actually, the question about butchering is quite apt--we know there were butchers in period, and that there were even regulations governing butchers and where they set up their shops in period. This suggests that, at least in urban settings, many (perhaps even most) people did not do their own butchering. It's also possible that butchers were like bakers -- some people bought the bread from the baker, others took their dough to the baker to be baked. So, did butchers do the preserving, did they sell exclusively fresh meat, or did they do both? 20th C or no, our ancestors didn't ALL do it all themselves, and you probably have to go back quite a ways to find more than a single generation (say the first generation of American frontier folk) who did it all themselves. toodles, margaret From: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 08:52:26 -0700 Subject: Re: SC - Butchering Lord Ras writes: >There are no similarities whatsoever between pre-20th century >lifestyles and any lifestyles occuring before then, in any way shape >or form. I presume, My Lord, that your fingers outpaced your point, and that you meant "post-"20th? The question raised in the original posting is not trivial, however, at least not if taken in detail. Period butchering was certainly much different from the modern, not only in mechanical technique but in concept. The one-serving-per-plate (and one bedroom per person, and so on) concepts that we find comfortable and familiar would have been foreign even to our own countrymen well into the 18th century. IDHMRAW (new acronym: I Don't Have My References at Work), but there are numerous archaeological studies (one of the Royal Navy's Victualling Yard in London comes to mind) that speak to such practices in period. It is a subject well worth investigating. Bjarni ************************************************************************ Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya Shadowood Manor, 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470 ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov ************************************************************************ From: Philip & Susan Troy Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 13:19:14 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Butchering Gretchen M Beck wrote: > Actually, the question about butchering is quite apt--we know there were > butchers in period, and that there were even regulations governing > butchers and where they set up their shops in period. This suggests > that, at least in urban settings, many (perhaps even most) people did > not do their own butchering. Many (perhaps even most) people neither needed, nor could deal with, an entire animal, either. Expense and limitations of living space are obvious issues, and there may be others. This is all part and parcel with the discussions we've been having on seasonal slaughtering, preservation, and spices. > It's also possible that butchers were > like bakers -- some people bought the bread from the baker, others took > their dough to the baker to be baked. So, did butchers do the > preserving, did they sell exclusively fresh meat, or did they do both? Indications are that butchers killed and dismembered animals for meat, and would have been a town phenomenon. Not all the slaughtering would have been done by butchers, but it seems likely that farmers would have done all this in the countryside, rather than a professional specialist. I further suspect that the majority of salt or other cured meats would have been made by those same farmers, who would bring hams, bacon, and salt pork and beef to market in town. One common factor of virtually every recipe for curing meats I've ever seen is the need to get the meat into the salt, the brine, or whatever, as quickly as possible after the animal is killed. So, while I suppose some pork butchers may have processed hams and bacon, I very much doubt a local townsman would bring home a side of fresh pork to make his own bacon. One interesting monkey wrench thrown into all this logic is the frequently-mentioned passage on the annual hog-killing in The Goodman of Paris. He is a townsman who apparently does (that is, oversees) his own slaughtering and processing of pigs each autumn. I would have thought this was rare, but the example certainly exists. Possibly this is only an indication of the size of his household or the extent of his frugality, indications of which are scattered throughout the text. I suppose this could be the exception that proves the rule... Adamantius From: "Marisa Herzog" Date: 1 Jul 1997 10:15:49 -0700 Subject: Re: SC - Butchering > There is really no need to look up the "evidence". We tend to >forget that until the advent of electricity in this century and Also, butchering is a fairly specialized skill. It entails knowledge of bodies and organs, tools and techniques. While jane-average might be able to pluck a chicken, and joe-average might figure out how to skin a squirrel, much of it is alot more complicated than that. Considering that jane and joe-average's knowledge of basic physiology was considerably less than the modern average (ei.these are lungs, this a heart, this is how they work)... we have probably at least seen a correctly rendered picture of guts and bones and such... From: Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 09:00:57 -0400 Subject: SC - Re: Butchery G'day, It might be well to assume that the butchering of animals was for them, normal and commonplace, regular knowledge in the Middle Ages. Most of them were not urban technophiles, such as we. The quote I have implies a great deal of familiarity with the animal in question...and the sharing out of the carcas...(see below) Ian Gourdon >Also, butchering is a fairly specialized skill. It entails knowledge of >bodies and organs, tools and techniques. While jane-average might be able to >pluck a chicken, and joe-average might figure out how to skin a squirrel, much >of it is alot more complicated than that. Considering that jane and >joe-average's knowledge of basic physiology was considerably less than the >modern average (ei.these are lungs, this a heart, this is how they work)... we >have probably at least seen a correctly rendered picture of guts and bones and >such... -Marisa from Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight: And the lord of the land rides late and long, Hunting the barren hind over the broad heath. He had slain such a sum, when the sun sank low, Of does and other deer, as would dizzy one's wits. Then they trooped in together in triumph at last, And the count of the quarry quickly they take. The lords lent a hand with their liegemen many, Picked out the plumpest and put them together And duly dressed the deer, as the deed requires. Some were assigned the assay of the fat: Two fingers'-width fully they found on the leanest. Then they slit the slot open and searched out the paunch, Trimmed it with trencher-knives and tied it up tight. They flayed the fair hide from the legs and trunk, Then broke ipen the belly and laid bare the bowels, Deftly detaching and drawing them forth. And next at the neck the neatly parted The weasand from the windpipe, and cast away the guts. At the shoulders with sharp blades they showed their skill, Boning them from beneath, lest the sides be marred; They breached the broad breast and broke it in twain, And again at the gullet they began with their knives, Cleave down the carcass clear to the breack; Two tender morsels they take from the throat, Then round the inner ribs they rid off a layer And carve out the kidney-fat, close to the spine, Hewing down to the haunchm that all hung together, And held ut up whole, and hacked it free, And this they named the numbles, that know such terms of art. They divide the crotch in two, And straightway then they start To cut the backbone through And cleave the trunk apart. With hard strokes they hewed off the head and neck, Then swiftly from the sides they severed the chine, And the corbie's bone they cast on a branch. Then they pierced the plump sides, impales either one With the hock of the hind foot, and hung it aloft, To each person his portion most proper and fit. On a hide of a hind the hounds they fed With the liver and the lights, the leathery paunches, And bread soaked in blood well blended therewith. High horns and shrill set hounds a-baying, Then merrily with their meat they make their way home, Blowing their bugles many a brave blast. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight translation by Marie Borroff copyright 1967, W.W. Norton & Co. From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 23:37:05 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Re: Butchery > Also, my family hunted, butchrered and prepared our own meat for years and > never felt a need to be familiar with anatomy to eat. We knew what was edible > and ate it. This insisting anatomical knowledge is a prerequesite to > butchering is also, IMHO, absurd. Basically, you kill it, skin it and eat the > parts that are edible whatevcer they are. The premise is acceptable, but the support a little lacking as you went on. There is far more to butchering than kill/skin/eat if you want meat that is palatable and will stay unspoiled long enough to smoke/salt/preserve (stay away from those adrenal glands!). The oversimplification of the skills required does the same disservice as the 'ivory tower' phenomenon :o) I agree that their must have been some rudimentary knowledge of dressing animals from the hunt, else many cultures would not have survived a generation. The specialized skills of limited anatomy would possibly have been for butchers and meat houses, the professional in cities. - -- In Humble Service to God and Crown; fra nicol¢ difrancesco From: Stephen Bloch Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Re: Butchery Ras wrote: > ... for anyone to assume a lack of knowledge > by medieval folk in these areas is lidicrous and ridiculous to the extreme. > Why even a child in period could tell the time of day by the position of the > sun and stars, practical knowledge which is sadly lacking in todays world. Me > thinks that sometimes we look down from our in\vorytowers and determine those > that have gone before possesed less than adequate learning in many fields. > Perhaps this is true but in the areas of survivl knowledge it is we who are > lacking the knowledge that our forefathers took for granted. I'm perfectly aware that I don't know how to butcher, and that most people in modern Western European cultures don't know how to butcher. Ras is correct in that we can't conclude from this that most medieval Europeans didn't know how to butcher; neither, however, can we conclude that most medieval Europeans DID know how to butcher. Nobody's "assuming a lack of knowledge," but rather looking for evidence one way or another. For example, if we found court cases in which a man who's shot a deer complains that the butcher, another man of the same village, took "both haunches rather than one as is customary", this would tell us there was a professional butcher in the village who customarily took a cut (as it were) in exchange for his services, similar to the situation with millers. On the other hand, if we found frequent references to ordinary peasants cleaning, gutting, and preserving (as somebody else pointed out, the finer points of butchery may come out in whether the meat can be preserved successfully) meat for their own use, we would conclude that the skill was widespread, not confined to a few people per village. The quotation from "Gawain and the Green Knight" is informative. It tells us that the task of butchering deer was not trivial, and that the servants referred to had the skill to do it. It also tells us that it was recognized as a skill, that some might be much better at it than others. It doesn't mention whether the servants were specifically hired for their skill at butchering, nor does it cast any light on the prevalence and/or professionalism of butchery among the peasants. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/ Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University From: "Sue Wensel" Date: 7 Jul 1997 11:18:18 -0500 Subject: Re(2): SC - Re: Butchery >Also, my family hunted, butchrered and prepared our own meat for years and >never felt a need to be familiar with anatomy to eat. We knew what was edible >and ate it. This insisting anatomical knowledge is a prerequesite to >butchering is also, IMHO, absurd. Basically, you kill it, skin it and eat the >parts that are edible whatevcer they are. >Lord Ras As did my family -- those skills were taught generation to generation. Many factors in these skills affect the edibility of the animal. How would you go about killing the animal? Ideally, you don't want to run the animal all over creation before you kill it or you end up with tougher meat than you might want. You don't want a gut shot animal or the meat will have a strong taste. How do you dress the meat? Knowing what parts of the animal to cut and not to cut, how to tie off the orifices, etc. was vitally important so as not to render the entire animal inedible. I have a memory of my brother being careless and rupturing the bladder of a rabbit he was to kill and butcher. The rabbit tasted vile; but he was required to eat the entire animal so as to learn from the mistake. How do you cut the carcass? Which joints do you want? Cut with the grain of the meat or against it (depends on the cut of meat)? How do you get rid of the membranes that cause some of the strong flavor? How do you preserve the meat? What meat is better fresh and what meat will survive preservation? What do you want smoked, salted, frozen, preserved in honey/lard, etc? Let's not forget how to cook it. But that is not the butcher's purview. Lots of questions here besides kill it, cut it up, and eat it. This philosophy might pass for birds and small game, but won't give you decent venison, beef, or other large game. I have a more than passing familiarity with this process, having taken part in the various aspects of it, but I would not presume to say I know how to do it. Derdriu From: rousseau at scn.org (Anne-Marie Rousseau) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re(2): SC - Re: Butchery Hi all from Anne-Marie (who knows how to butcher and used to invite her high school boyfriends home on Chicken killing day :D) In the 12th century, common peasants knew how to butcher. Alexander Neckham (_Daily LIving in the 12th Century_ by Urban Tigner Holmes Jr) carefully lists all the things that a peasant should have. This list includes many kinds of livestock, many of which (except the mules) we have recipes for their use as food. I find it very unlikely that the peasant would have livestock and then call in a butcher from the city to kill and dismember said beasties. The same treatise discusses the butchers in Paris, though, so one thinks that perhaps city dwellers didn't raise their own livestock and so bought already dead meat bits. Livestock, according ot Holmes, were driven into town and then butchered as needed by professional guilded butchers. I guess this means that some city slicker could go through life without ever killing a chicken of their own, but most people in the middle ages were not city slickers, and so most would have been responsible for the butchering of their own livestock. In the 14th century, a middle class merchant knew how to butcher. _le Menagier a Paris_ gives great detail on this matter. In the 15-16th centuries, peasants butchered their own meat as is evidienced by the Books of Hours illuminations on this subject. Killing animals is easy. I did it when I was a kid. We didn't have any fancy anatomy lessons first...we just had someone show us once how to do it. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Anne-Marie Rousseau rousseau at scn.org Seattle, Washington From: "lwperkins" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:46:11 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Re: Butchery Not to beat a dead horse, but when I lived briefly in York as a college student there was an area by the market called the "Shambles" where the butchers hung out from c1300 until the 19th century, when an open-air butcher shop began to be considered something of a public nuisance. I was told that most towns had their own "shambles" where meat could be bought or your antiquated cow could be minced up fine, and that was where the term "this place is a shambles" came from. York, by the way, should be on every SCA visitor to Britain's list of Plases that Must Be Visited--especially in April, when the daffodils are in bloom. - --Ester du Bois lwperkins at snip.net From: Philip & Susan Troy Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Re(2): Re(2): SC - Re: Butchery Sue Wensel wrote: > Anne Marie wrote: > >Livestock, according ot Holmes, were driven into town and then butchered > >as needed by professional guilded butchers. I guess this means that some > >city slicker could go through life without ever killing a chicken of > >their own, but most people in the middle ages were not city slickers, and > >so most would have been responsible for the butchering of their own > >livestock. > > I am afraid I can not agree with this premise. To take this further, we must > then assume that because farmers grew wheat, they all did their own milling, > when we know this not to be true. Undoubtedly, some farmers grew their own > livestock and butchered it and some grew their own grain and milled it. > However, I also think it likely that some took livestock to butchers to be > killed and/or cut up. So, after what seems like weeks of debate, we have evidently concluded that some people in medieval Europe knew how to butcher larger animals, and some didn't. I can live with that. Adamantius From: James May Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 17:45:39 -0400 Subject: SC - Re: Butchery >How do you dress the meat? >How do you cut the carcass? Which joints do you want? Cut with the grain of >the meat or against it (depends on the cut of meat)? How do you get rid of >the membranes that cause some of the strong flavor? >How do you preserve the meat? What meat is better fresh and what meat will >survive preservation? What do you want smoked, salted, frozen, preserved in >honey/lard, etc? >Lots of questions here besides kill it, cut it up, and eat it. > Derdriu Though it is not period, a very good book answering all of these questions on a variety of meats is: Butchering, Processing and Preservation of Meat by Frank G. Ashbrook ISBN 0-442-20377-2 Jean-Evvess de Chateau Thierry Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:45:41 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Re: SCA myths Stephen Bloch wrote, quoting somebody or other: > Adamantius quoted someone on the SCA-ARTS list. For the most part, I > agree with what Adamantius says, so I've snipped it. Here are some > further comments: > > > > Because of the spoilage speed, meat of all kinds was eaten > > > the same day it was slaughtered. Mundanely, we prefer ours to have a > > > slightly "aged" (spelled 'controlled spoilage') flavor. Theirs would taste > > > "gamey" by comparison. > > Adamantius, since you know more about meats than many of us, could > you comment on this particular point? Some game could have been eaten the day it was killed, but not all. Also, since the term used is "slaughtered", rather than "hunted" or simply killed, I feel it is fair to assume the writer is talking about domestic animals. Larger animals like beef and mutton would almost certainly have been hung: extant slaughtering accounts suggest that there was a standard operating procedure regarding what would be eaten first, and how. The various viscera, blood, etc, would have either been eaten almost immediately, or processed and cooked in the form of sausages and such. Even then they wouldn't have been expected to keep more than a few days. The hanging, or aging, of meat has more to do with rigor mortis than with a taste for controlled spoilage. Depending on various factors, rigor mortis, the stiffening of certain muscles after death, will set in within about eight hours or less. Meat in rigor mortis is referred to as "green", and is EXTREMELY tough. Animals to be roasted whole, or broken up and cooked immediately after slaughter, don't need to be hung. This might include the animals listed in the beginning of Chiquart's "Fait du Cuisine". On the other hand, butcher's meat, with an uncertain time and date of purchase, would have had to be hung. As for the question of spoilage, it's no accident that farmers seem to have done the majority of their slaughtering in the late autmn and early winter, putting up much of the meat in salt for use at other times of the year. When meat was allowed at all, those who could get it had a choice of things like salt beef or pork, or a supplement of freshly slaughtered smaller animals like lamb, veal, and chicken. Other possibilities include freshly captured game and locally raised coneys, killed to order in a market stall or shop. I just don't buy the whole spoilage argument. Adamantius Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:00:49 -0000 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" Subject: SC - Question concerning meat In reading around cooking, I came across some legislation (English) which said that butchers were not allowed to hold meat over the fast days, indeed their premises were liable to be inspected to make sure they didn't keep meat. By the late 15th century you weren't supposed to be eating meat on Wednesdays Fridays and Saturdays. Surely this would mean that on Thursdays and Sundays you would be purchasing freshly slaughtered meat for consumption that day? Or were people expected to buy their meat on Thursday for Sunday and keep it? Which would be added temptation to eat meat as well as potentially problematic in hot weather. So, does this mean butchers didn't hang their meat, it was eaten fresh, or only on those days? Any thoughts or information, anyone? Caroline Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:23:08 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - organ meats and anthelmintics?? CBlackwill at aol.com writes: << It seems that, if it was as much of a problem then as in our time, wouldn't it have been risky to ingest raw bacon? >> So long as the pig did not have sores in it's mouth then it was allowed to be butchered and sold. That was the extent of medieval worry. Any worry beyond that is a modern worry. Considering several thousands of pigs were slaughtered and sold DAILY in Paris alone, I suspect that pigs with sore mouths were not a problem on most days. Ras Edited by Mark S. Harris p-butchering-msg Page 11 of 11