guilds-msg – 4/20/15

Medieval and SCA guilds.

NOTE: See also the files: measures-msg, p-butchering-msg, p-prices-msg, commerce-msg, coins-msg, measures-art, occupations-msg, cookng-guilds-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: habura at vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap)
Date: 24 Feb 1994 21:28:45 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble...

The fact that a medieval person could have made something at home is not
proof that a guild for making it could not have existed. In the only
medieval art in which I consider myself well-versed (namely High Middle
Ages embroidery), a good chunk of it _was_ done in the home, but there
were also guilds of embroiderers in several English cities no later
than the 14th century (one 14th c. surviving record is a complaint by two
male embroiderers who somehow wound up being admitted as members of the
tailor's guild by mistake!) 
We can also look at some of London's great guilds for confirmation. I'll
bet that quite a few people could and did make their own shoes, but that
didn't stop the Cordwainers from incorporating. Could a medieval person
have laid a stone paving? Yep, but the Pavoirs were a guild anyway. My 
guess was that a guild could form for any craft where there was a 
possibility for sales to outstrip the resources of a cottage industry--
embroiderers, weavers, goldsmiths--or where economies of scale made 
production by professionals cheaper for the consumer than separate 
home production would be--probably weavers again, glassblowers, bakers. 

Take a look at your own life. I bake my own bread only if I get a craving 
for piping hot, perfectly fresh bread. For daily use, I turn to my
local bakeries, who produce a good product. On the other hand, purchasing
ready-cooked food (restaurants, take-out joints) I do more rarely, because
I can do it cheaper and with relatively little effort at home. I almost never
make my own clothing, not when I can find a ready-made garment that costs less
thjan the materials I would have to purchase to make it at home.
I rather suspect that our medieval exemplars made the same cost-benefit
calculations.

Extending this to soapmaking: Sure, the simple stuff could have been 
made at home. On the other hand, rendering fat and using lye (do 
Castile soaps use lye? I've made modern hard soap, which does, but I have
no idea what the period methods are) is a pain in the derriere, and would
have been a good craft for a guild to coalesce around.

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: marian at world.std.com (marian walke)
Subject: Re: Medieval cooks didnt make bread
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:41:30 GMT

>>In London, there were *two* guilds of bakers, the Brown Bakers and the White
>>Bakers.  (One baked only brown bread, the other only white bread.)
>>
>>    Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [mfy at sli.com]

>Interesting indeed! Where did you find this? And were both
>guilds subject to the same Assize of Loaves? (or is it Assize of
>Bread?)

>Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews)
>Barony of Namron, Kingdom of Ansteorra

Old Marian commenting here:
 (major source: C Anne Wilson, "Food and Drink in Britain" - at least, I 
think that's the title - my much-used paperback lost its cover a few 
years ago! Items in square brackets [] are my own comments.)

Medieval bread was not just divided into white and brown - there were 
several gradations, and since the same names were not used in all places, 
there is some confusion about where each kind of bread was placed in the 
spectrum from whitest to brownest.  However, quoting from Wilson:

"The best white wheaten bread, made of the finest flour which had been two 
or three times sieved through woollen and linen bolting cloths, was in 
the Middle Ages called wastel bread (from the Norman French GASTEL or 
cake) or pandemain (probably originally from PANIS DOMINI, the 
sacramental bread, because that was made of the most delicate flour 
obtainable....  Cocket, another fine white bread, but a slightly less 
expensive one, was produced until about the beginning of the 16th 
centruy.  But before that time the name manchet had begun to be applied 
to white bread of the finest quality.  Manchets were made up as rather 
small loaves: in Elizabeth I's reign they were supposed to weigh 'eight 
ounces into the oven, and six ounces out', and forty were to be made out 
of the flour bolted from one bushel of corn [i.e., wheat].  Bread 
described as being 'of whole wheat' was of wheat flour more coarsely 
sieved than that used for wastel or cocket; while a still coarser and 
more branny wheat bread was made under the name of 'bis' or 'treet'."

Wilson says all these breads were taken into account in the Assize of 
Bread, which was in operation (with many amendments) from 1267 (our 
earliest extant version) through 1815.  There may be earlier versions no 
longer extant; it is said to date back to King John (ca 1200).  In large 
towns there were variants of the Assize to cover local variations in bread.

"In London the white bakers and the brown or TORTE bakers for a long time 
had separate guilds.  The 'White Book' of the city of London laid down 
'that a tourte baker shall not have a bolter nor make white bread'.  His 
brown bread was to include all the husks and bran in the meal, just as it 
came from the mill.  But he was permitted to bake the dough which people 
brought to him ready made up [a function bakers served for people who 
made their own dough, but did not have their own ovens], and to make 
horsebread of peas and beans.  In Ipswich, on the other hand, the bakers 
who baked the fine white loaves...were also allowed to make treet bread 
from the leavings, after they had sieved their meal and removed the 
whitest and finest flour....

The same farthing could buy you a given amount of finest white wastel 
loaf, or twice as much brown or treet loaf.  It bought you a loaf of 
cocket a little larger than the finest white wastel or a wholewheat loaf 
weighing half again as much as the cocket or a loaf of "other cereals" 
weighing twice as much as the cocket.  However, the actual amount of 
bread you got for that farthing varied from Assize to Assize; the object 
was to keep the price of bread steady, and the weight of bread you got 
for your farthing varied according to the success of harvests and other 
economic factors.

"The rougher breads of servants and laborourers and their families were 
made of of maslin [mixed rye and wheat] or the local grain: rye in 
Norfold, barley in northwest England, lowland Scotland, parts of Wales 
and Cornwall, oats in upland Wales and the Pennines and the Scottish 
highlands...."  [So what kind of dark bread you ate depended on where you 
lived as well as your social status.  The reason for these regional 
variations was that wheat demands a longer growing season and better soil 
than were present in the upland and rocky areas.  And remember, these 
variations were all just for Britain, which all together is only about 
half the size of the state of California.  Imagine the variations you get 
when you're looking at the whole of Europe.  This is why there is no ONE 
"Medieval Bread"!]

As for the combining of the two London guilds: According to Wilson, in 
1304 there where 32 brown and 21 white bakers.  In 1574 there were 36 
brown and 62 white bakers.  They joined in the 17th century, and the 
separate guild of brown bakers disappeared.

[However, it should be noted that lots of craft guilds amalgamated as time 
went on, probably to have more clout as one large than as several small 
guilds.  In the 16th C you start seeing combined guilds of "Carpenters 
and Joiners" or "Masons and Tilers" or "Weavers and Dyers" or "Cooks and 
Innkeepers."  So joining the brown and white bakers may have reflected 
the temper of the times as much as the demand for brown bread in London.]

--Old Marian
(Marian of Edwinstowe, Carolingia, East Kingdom (marian at world.std.com) 


From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/16/95)
To: Shore at oo.okstate.edu, Ansteorra at eden.com, Rec-Org-SCA at cs.utexas.edu
The New and Improved list of Guild Names

This list is part of the residue from a discussion of the naming
of "Guilds" in the SCA.  I am aware that there are some social groups
in the Society that have not fallen prey to the ubiquitous "X-Guild"
naming style, but to show the rest, the following is a list of "Guild"
names that are from the period.
There is a difference between, but an overlapping of, Craft Guilds and 
Social Guilds, and it might well be that the members of one comprise the
membership of the other. Some towns had multiple guilds for the same craft.
Many of the guilds (ok, maybe 10%) allowed women to be members as well.

Examples of Guild/Gild names:

Barber-Surgeon's Company (1461) [Later branched Barbers Co. & Surgeons Co.]
Bowyer's Company
Brewer's Company (1437)
Broderers Company [Embroidery]
Brotherhood of Barbers, Norwich
Brotherhood of Carpenters
Butcher's Company
Carmen Company [Carters; Teamsters]
Carpenter's Gild, Norwich, The
Clothier's Community
Clothworker's Company
Company of Cutlers
Company of Watermen and Lightermen
Cutler's Company (1415)
Dyers Company (1471)
Fanmaker's Company
Fellowship of Masons/Fraternity of Masons
Fellowship of Porters/Company of Fellowship Porters
Feltmaker's Company
Fishmonger's Halimont
Fishmongers Company (1399)
Fletcher's Company
Fraternitas Sancte Katerine, Norwich
Fraternitas Sancte Trinitatis (in ecclesia Cathedrali Sancte Trinitatis), Norwich
Fraternitas Sancti Christofori, Norwich
Fraternity and Gild of Merchants
Fraternity of Burellers
Fraternity of Tailors
Fraternity of Woodmongers
Free Journeyman Printers
Fullers (of X place), The
Fullers, Shearmen,and Clothworkers Company
Gild Merchant
Gild of Cordwainers (1429)
Gild of Garlekhith
Gild of Merchant Taylors (1327)
Gild of Peltyers, Norwich
Gild of Saddlers
Gild of Saddlers (1394)
Gild of St. Anthony, Lynn
Gild of St. Botulph, Norwich
Gild of St. George, Norwich
Gild of St. Katherine, Aldersgate
Gild of St. Leonard, Lynn
Gild of St. Mary, Norwich
Gild of St. Peter
Gild of Sts Fabian and Sebastion, Aldersgate
Gild of the Bakers
Gild of the Holy Cross of Birmingham, The
Gild of the Holy Cross, Lynn
Gild of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, Lynn
Gild of the Palmers
Gild of the Purification, Lynn
Gild of the Woolweavers
Gild of Weavers (constituted in the name of the Holy Cross), Lincoln, The
Gild of Young Scholars/Young Scholars (of Lynn), The
Glover's Company
Gold and Silver Wire Drawers Company
Goldsmith's Company (1327)
Great Guild of St. John of Beverly
Guild of Holy Trinity, Lynn
Guild of St. Benedict
Guild of St. Thomas of Canterbury, Lynn
Gunmakers Company
Ironmonger's Company (1464)
Joiners and Carpenters of Worcester, The
Loriner's Company [Aka Lorimer's; make Bits & Tack]
Parish Clerk's Company (1233)
Pewterer's Company
Playing Card Makers Company
Poor Men of Norwich/Poor Men's Gild of Norwich
Ringers Gild
Saddlers Company
Saddlers' and Spurriers' Gild, Norwich, The
Shipmanes Gild, Lynn, The
Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Spital)
Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Bethlem)
Society of Apothecaries
Spurriers of London/Spurrier's Company, The
Tailor's Gild, Norwich, The
Tailors Gild, The
Tilers & Bricklayers Company
Vintner's Company (1437)
Water bearers of London, The
Wax Chandler's Company (1483)
Weaver's Company (1154)
Wheelwright's Company
White-Tawyers (Megucers), The
Woolmens Company
Woolweaver's Guild
Worshipful Company of Armorers and Braziers (1453)
Worshipful Company of Bakers
Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths
Worshipful Company of Carpenters (1477)
Worshipful Company of Clockmakers
Worshipful Company of Coachmakers and Coach Harness Makers
Worshipful Company of Cooks (1481)
Worshipful Company of Coopers/Coopers Company
Worshipful Company of Drapers (1429)
Worshipful Company of Founders
Worshipful Company of Framework-knitters
Worshipful Company of Framework Knitters
Worshipful Company of Fruiterers
Worshipful Company of Gardeners
Worshipful Company of Girdlers (1448)
Worshipful Company of Glass sellers
Worshipful Company of Glaziers
Worshipful Company of Grociers (1428)
Worshipful Company of Haberdashers (1417)
Worshipful Company of Horners
Worshipful Company of Innholders
Worshipful Company of Joiners
Worshipful Company of Leathersellers (1444)
Worshipful Company of Mercers/Hospital of St Thomas of Acon
Worshipful Company of Musicians (1472)
Worshipful Company of Needlemakers
Worshipful Company of Painters/Painters-Stainer's Company
Worshipful Company of Pattern makers
Worshipful Company of Paviors [Paving Stone Layers]
Worshipful Company of Plasterers
Worshipful Company of Plumbers
Worshipful Company of Poulterers
Worshipful Company of Salters
Worshipful Company of Scriveners
Worshipful Company of Shipwrights
Worshipful Company of Skinners (1327)
Worshipful Company of Spectacle Makers
Worshipful Company of Stationers
Worshipful Company of Tallow Chandlers (1462)
Worshipful Company of Turners
Worshipful Company of Upholders


From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--???
Date: 22 Jun 1996 15:37:27 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

For Isabelle: Think "dry goods merchant".

Quick comment on guild structure. The roles of each guild varied
from town to town and from era to era. In York, for example,
there was a good deal of "border jumping" between guilds, with
people nominally in one guild dabbling in other areas on the 
side. The Mercers controlled most of the trade of stuffs like 
fine fabric, threads, metal goods, glass, and etc. into the 
country, but individual members of other guilds might also be
involved in importing their own trade goods. (Example: two 
York bowyers spent ten years in Prussia in the 14th c., making
and transporting to England bowstaves of Baltic yew.)
 
The big advantage the Mercers had, especially in places like 
London, was access to capital. They were usually one of the earliest 
guilds in any city, and they used that head start to build up 
serious fortunes---and, as any modern entrepeneur can tell you,
it takes money to make money. 
 
The organized Mercers were also generally able (through their 
usual control of the town-council-equivalent in their cities--
remember, they were prestigious and wealthy) to make life 
difficult for any other individuals who tried to get involved 
in large scale trade. While they could be circumvented, it wasn't
easy, so the easier way was to join 'em rather than beat 'em.

Hope this helps...

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*


From: habura at matisse.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--???
Date: 23 Jun 1996 02:15:11 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Wolfram states that the function of the Mercers' guilds was cloth
manufacture.
 
As far as I know, generally not, although it wouldn't surprise me
a bit to learn that some, say, English Mercers had interests in Italian
weaving industries. 
 
When you talk about cloth production per se, several guilds were 
involved, namely:

The Drapers, who were the "big money" players. Odds are that they
were commissioning members of other guilds to do work, and were also
involved in some imports.

The Weavers, who--surprise!--wove the cloth.They generally got their thread 
from 1) non-Guild-affiliated spinsters, or 2) from imports. 

The Fullers, who treated cloth the Weavers made. 

The Clothworkers, who were usually responsible for teasing and trimming 
the woven/fulled cloth. This was a tricky step, and there are at least some
records of clothworkers and fullers being forced to have sellable 
possessions of a certain value, as a sort of bond against ruining the 
cloth they were given.

The Dyers, who colored the cloth or the thread. 

(Now you begin to see why there was a Drapers' guild.)

The Mercers, although they may have their hands in this process 
to a certain extent--especially in the import of dyestuffs and silk--
weren't really directly involved in th manufacture of cloth. 

The word Mercer itself derives from Old French _mercier_ and 
ultimately from Latin _mercari_, which means "to buy or trade". 
It's related to the word "merchant", naturally. Mercers didn't
_make_ much of anything, although they might arrange for things to
be manufactured; their main job was to buy things in Place A,
take 'em to Place B, and sell 'em at a profit. 

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*


From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval guilds--???
Date: 24 Sep 1996 18:55:28 -0400
Organization: The Internet

<Alison MacDermot<habura at matisse.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)>
>For Isabelle: What, exactly, are you trying to find out? I know of
>no single source that's the Definitive Big Book O'Guild Information
>(and God knows I've been looking.) However, there are a number of
>interesting books and artices on specific aspects of guild organization,
>regulation, life of artisans, heraldry, religious aspects, etc. 

Unfortunately, I agree.  However, she *might* consider the following
options as a start:

Furnivall, F. J.  The Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield, being ordinances of 
     the gild of St. Mary, and other documents.  London: Pub. for the 
     Early English text society by K. Paul, Trench, Trubner & co., ltd.;
     and by H. Milford. (Early English Text Society (Series); Extra series,
     no. 114). [London] and New York: Oxford university press,
     1920.
        [Includes:
       Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield: Richard II's ordinances (A.D. 1387),
       English A.D. 1538. Sir Humfrey Stanley's ordinances, A.D. 1486. Dean
       Heywood's reform of 'Our Lady's alms-chest," A.D. 1486.--First extant
       charter of the Lichfield tailors. 1576.--Second extant charter of the
       Lichfield tailors. A.D. 1697.--First extant ordinances of the
       Lichfields smiths' gild. 1601--Second set of ordinances of the company
       of Lichfield smiths. 1630.--Ordinances of the Lynn tailors. <A.D.
       1449.>--Southampton tailors' petitions. <A.D. 1406-7 and 1468.>]
Gross, Charles. The gild merchant, a contribition to British municipal 
       history.  Oxford: Clarendon press, 1890.
Thorpe, Benjamin.  Diplomatarium anglicum aevi saxonici, A collection of 
       English charters, from the reign of King Aethelberht of Kent, A.D. 
       DC.V. to that of William the conqueror. Containing I. Miscellaneous 
       charters. II. Wills. III. Guilds. IV. Manumissions and acquittances 
       with a translation of the Anglo-Saxon.  London: Macmillan & Co., 1865.
Unwin, George.  The gilds and companies of London.  4th ed.  London:
       Frank Cass, 1963.  "List of the sources for the history of the 
       existing London companies"

I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian    |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU
Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:
Reference Tech. McFarlin Library        | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn 
University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St.    | University of Northkeep 
Tulsa, OK  74104-3123 (918) 631-3794    | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra


Subject: RE: ANST - Guilds
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:48:10 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

>I am looking for a listing of ranks within a guild i.e. novice, journeyman,
>master etc. Does anyone know their specific order or where I could find
>them. (without too much effort)
>
>Rufus Guthrie

In general they are apprentice, journeyman, and master.  A specific
guild might have intermediate rankings or different names.

An apprentice contracted with a master to learn a specific trade.  The
apprentice normally received room, board and instruction in return for
his service for at set period of years.  At the end of this service and
by a display of his skills, an apprentice could become a journeyman.

A journeyman was (usually) an itinerant worker.  As a member of a guild,
he could avail himself of the services of a guild local to find food,
lodging and employment.  A journeyman was expected to master his craft
as widely a possible under as many masters as possible.   This insured a
high level of skill and reduced competition.

A journeyman would usually become a master by inheriting a master's
business through relationship, marriage or service or by accumulating
enough wealth or patronage to assure a place in a local guild.

Bear


Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:06:59 -0400
From: Becky Needham <betony at infinet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Guild Structure

There is a lot of Guild information in Kay Staniland's "Embroiderers"
from the Medieval Craftsmen series.

Bet


Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:50:21 -0500
From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Guilds & Alcohol law in Ansteorra

Lord Ras said something that sounded like:
> My question now is what do you mean by the statement concerning the laws
> about guilds?

Just what I said. The individuals in our guild own everything, and is
funded by individuals. Although some of the guilds (such as dance for a
boom box that will be used by the Barony when needed) can petition the
Barony for funds, the majority are all funded by individuals.

Within our guild, there are individuals that have donated equipment to
the guild, this follows the Guildmaster and is of questionable ownership.

> Since one of the tasks of the A & S minister is to encourage the
> formation of Guilds,

Our local A&S minister not only enoucrages them, they actually keep
track of what they do monthly.
- --
Phelim "Pug" Gervase 
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
House Flaming Dog   
pug at pug.net        


Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:38:47 -0000
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
To: "LIST Sca Arts" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: British Guild records

Try:
http://www.thenortheast.com/archives/7_GuildRecords.html

Mel


Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:03:17 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - pie and bread pans

> I really need to read these threads more carefully; I've obviously
> missed something. I assume (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
> that Stefan felt that there wasn't much baking going on in Pompeii in
> the Middle Ages because Pompeii was destroyed in 79 C.E. and, AFAIK,
> never rebuilt. 
 
True enough.  The cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum disappeared in the
eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE.  The Elder Pliny observed  the eruption from
a vessel in the Bay of Naples, then died of suffocation from the fumes while
taking refuge in Stabia.

The cities weren't rebuilt, but the area became the site for some villages
which still exist, although this may have been after the eruption of 513 CE.

> Pompeii is an entire town frozen in time by catastrophe. Only a true
> cook would call a pair of baker's rings one of the most important finds,
> and for that, Balthazar, I salute you! ;  ) How do the rings indicate
> that the bakers were guild members? (I've seen them, but not recently.)
> Is there something inscribed on them to that effect? If that is the
> case, I can see the point, but otherwise it occurs to me that bakers may
> have been regulated by law as to loaf sizes, weights, etc.
> 
> Adamantius
 
The rings don't demonstrate that the bakers were members of a guild, but
under Roman law bakers were a very segregated, regulated and powerful caste.
The guild structure was established about 153 BCE.  Bakers were restricted
to their trade and the sons of bakers could only apprentice as bakers,
although there was a very expensive buy-out option..  Because of their
wealth and position, bakers were also limited in political opportunities.
Apparently, these laws were more loosely applied in the provinces than in
Italy proper.

The Roman guild structure appears not to have survived the Empire.  When the
baker's guilds were resurrected in northern Europe between the 11th and 13th
Centuries (best guess) they appear to have been established as organizations
affiliated with churches whose congregations were primarily bakers (as with
London's Worshipful Company of Bakers).

Bear


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:30:09 -0600
From: Jeff Elder <scholari at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> From Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
> I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ?  bakers' ?)
> guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries.  Does anyone
> have any good references, websites, or the like handy?>
>
> - Doc

A couple links can be found on Wulfric's page:
http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madbaker/

Guilds from the Florilegium (mentions the white and brown bead guilds)
http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMMERCE/guilds-msg.html

Most links seem to always point back to Wulfric of Creigull's website, 
and the paper he did on "The Rise of Bakers' Guilds
in the Middle Ages."

Simon Hondy


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:53:03 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ?  bakers' ?)
> guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries.  Does anyone
> have any good references, websites, or the like handy?
>
> - Doc

These should get you started.  Some of the more scholarly sites have
bibliographies you can chase.

Bear

The Worshipful Company of Bakers (London Baker's Guild)
http://www.bakers.co.uk/

York Baker's Guild account book
http://www.lancs.ac.uk/users/english/palwork/week19/palwk19.htm

Livery Companies of the City of London
http://www.wcsim.co.uk/page04.htm

Medieval Merchants (list)
http://web.archive.org/web/20021216012925/homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/ 
LND/Indexes/MEDMCHTS.txt

Immigrants in Early Tudor London
http://www.esh.ed.ac.uk/CEU/Velich.htm

Renaissance Guilds
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/guildhall/ 
guilds/guildinfo.html

The Assizes of Bread, Beer and Lucrum Pistoris
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/breadbeer.html

Harvard Law on Assize of Bread
http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/collections/special/publications/ 
food/food1.php

Dublin Corn Market
http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/Gilbert/gilbert7.htm


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:49:19 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] guilds (was Laurelling stuff)
To: Arts and Sciences in the SCA <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

<< -Carowyn, who witnessed it all from the sideline after the EK Herbalist
tithe was given and we were dismissed (but *she* wasn't!!!), and there's
video too!  ;-) >>

<<< Herbalists pay tithes?
I realize it is a passion with some folks, but a taxed religion too? >>>

Hm.. it's really more of a peppercorn rent.
The original idea was that giving stuff to the crown would make them a) 
notice us, b) notice what we did, and c) if we stopped doing it, someone 
might notice it-- seeing as at the time I started the guild, the kingdom 
cooksguild had been in abeyance for over 20 years and nobody had noticed 
it was missing. :)

Basically, we make up a bunch of samples of our work and present 'em to 
the Queen. We generally do it once a year but often we can come up with 
something to give the Summer Reign Royals as well.

I'm not sure what effect, if any, this has had on the guild, the kingdom 
as a whole, etc. Nor whether it is a pro or a con.

How do other kingdom's guilds work? In the East, we have a few very old 
guilds and some that are relatively new and rather relaxed in our ways 
of handling things.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net


Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:34:32 -0500 (EST)
From: john j cash <jcash at indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] guilds (was Laurelling stuff)
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net,	Arts and Sciences in the SCA
	<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

I was active in the East Kingdom for several years, and I always liked the
idea of annual guild presentations to the crown. As Jadwiga says, it has
the advantages of visibility. More than this, though, it gives the guild
or organization a minimum level of activity, just as an annual event does
for a group -- "we always do the X Event." Further, it places the focus on
the group as the continual center of activity, rather than the Crown who
in fact come and go.

Many years back in Carolingia (Boston MA area) I got a group together who
were interested in peasant activities, in contrast to the more elegant
courtly activities. Every year we presented stuff to the Baron -- fennel
cakes, strips of embroidery, vegetables, but always and chiefly a rock
(from the rocky soil) with which to make stone soup. Although membership
has changed, activity levels have fluctuated, and the Baron has had
successors, the peasants have presented a rock every year since.

-- Johannes 


Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:02 -0500
From: "ysabeau" <ysabeau at mail.ev1.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow
To: Cooks within the SCA  <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that
there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.
One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of
houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I
kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I
think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has
anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left
to fend for themselves until this tour.

Ysabeau


Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:49:57 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow
To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that
> there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.
> One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of
> houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I
> kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I
> think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has
> anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left
> to fend for themselves until this tour.

Short answer- yes! There were a number of different guild and fraternity
organizations that provided reliefs to the widows and children of deceased
members. It was largely an urban thing though.

Long answer- will have to wait until later, likely tonight. I pulled the
pertinent books and I'll give you a better recap then- I'm kinda buried in
a sewing project and need to keep going while I have the steam up...

In the meantime, a quick poke through my bookmarks shows these:

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/24guilds.html

http://web.archive.org/web/19990221141432/www.millersv.edu/~english/ 
homepage/duncan/medfem/guilds.html

Good places to start.

'Lainie


Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:43:08 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Guilds, was- Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow
To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 07:20 AM 4/21/2005, you wrote:
> On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that
> there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.
> <snip>
>  Has anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left
> to fend for themselves until this tour.

Ok, I'm back for a longer answer...

Basically, there's three social groups that fall under the 'guilds'
umbrella. There were merchant guilds, skill/trade guilds, and
'fraternities' (no, not Animal House!).

The merchant guilds were based in large trade-hub towns, and controlled
trade, often working hand in glove with the government (nothing's changed,
eh?) as regarding tariffs and such. The Hanseatic League was an enormous
merchant guild that controlled the shipping and trade for the Baltic, North
Sea, and into the North Atlantic. Merchant guilds were held tightly by a
few select families, but a few rose through the ranks.

The trade or skill guilds were also city-based, and were very much like our
trade unions. The guilds provided something in quality control- they had
specific oversight as regarding apprenticeships and training, they
controlled things such as working hours (not just how many, but when- many
guilds forbade working by candle-light, for instance), and how many
apprentices and journeymen could work with a master. Members of the guild
had to meet standards, or be shut down, and no, scabs weren't welcomed then
either. There were many benefits though- the guild was a significant social
group- they held banquets, participated in parades on feast days or for
important occasions, and usually did so dressed in guild livery. They often
sponsored charity works, such as hospitals and foundling homes. They also
had specific funds (paid into by membership fees and such) for support for
families if the guild member was taken ill, burial costs when he died,
support for his widow and children- even help for a widow who wished to
continue her husband's business (yes, it happened, and often quite
successfully). There was even an investment fund for dowries for their
daughters (there's a special name for that but I can't remember it at the
moment). And there was pension money available when the tradesman was too
old to work.

The fraternities were similar, with two differences: they were not only
city-based- they could be found in the suburbs and sometimes in the
countryside; and they were not occupation based, but were purely social.
Instead of a trade union, think the Elks, Masons, or Odd Fellows. The
fraternities were usually loosely religious-based, honoring a saint, or Our
Lady. They filled many of the same roles as the trade guilds, minus the
trade. They also held banquets, participated in processions, etc. They also
usually had burial and dowry funds available, but less so disability and
pension money, which are much more closely tied to actual earnings. But
they were available in some places where the trade guilds were not, and
filled a social niche that needed filling.

There is much more information available of course, so here's a short
bibliography of books that have information on the subject (and a few other
subjects :-)

Christopher Dyer, _Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social
Change in England c. 1200-1520_. (Cambridge University Press,  
Cambridge, 1989)

_City and Spectacle in Medieval Europe_, Barbara Hanawalt and Kathryn
Reyerson, eds. (University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1994)

_The Medieval Town: A Reader in English Urban History, 1200-1540_,  
Richard
Holt and Gervase Rosser, eds. (Longman, London, 1990)

_Fifteenth-Century Attitudes: Perceptions of Society in Late Medieval
England_, Rosemary Horrox, ed. (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,  
1994)

Maurice Keen, _English Society in the Later Middle Ages: 1348-1500_.
(Penguin, New York, 1990)

You'll also find some interesting difference between women's lives in the
small towns and villages, and their lives in large towns where a woman
could make an independent life for herself. She might even be able to be
declared 'femme sole', which gave her rights to her own earnings, the right
to move about as she would, and to sign and extend legally binding  
contracts.

'Lainie


Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:28:04 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural
	construction	crews & related food references

I would need to dig around for the sources, but a guild worker would be 
hired for part of a project and a portion of his wage would be bread, beer 
and specific weekly amounts of meat or fish.  These would be recorded in the 
household accounts.  The consumables would be for the worker and his family. 
The basics might be supplemented by the generosity of the employer or by 
purchase from the monetary portion of the wages.  In general, all guilds 
would have been eating roughly the same things although that could vary by 
location.

I don't recall anything about how guildsmen ate on the jobsite, but given 
the way they were paid, it suggests that they brought their lunches with 
them.  As hired men for s specific project, they would likely not be 
considered part of the household and would probably not eat the communal 
meals with the household.

Bear

Bear wrote:
< Medieval and Renaissance construction was centered around the craft
guilds, mason, painters, carpenters, etc.  Without knowing precisely what
you are after, try googling medieval construction, medieval mason guilds,
medieval carpenter guilds and medieval painter guilds for images. >

<<< Having already googled, I thought to ask here as my google fu failed.
Perhaps I can make myself more clear. Say a building needed to be built.
Say that it's a stone building in large part, perhaps a castle keep or a
cathedral. There would clearly be construction workers on site at said
building. What would they have eaten? Would the various guild groups have
eaten something different? Would they have brought their own food or fed
communally? >>>


Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:59:18 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural
	construction crews &, related food references

I do not understand the question. Are we talking about 
medieval/renaissance architectural constructions concerning alimentation 
or about what construction workers ate? Are we talking about England or 
Europe in general?

Of construction we have several examples of English palaces and manor 
houses with independent bakery and brewing houses and a kitchen being a 
building separate from the castle as well. Today it is claimed that this 
was because of the fire hazard. I have not run across that type of 
documentation in Spain.

If talking about what construction workers ate  - J.C. Drummond in his 
book "The Englishman's Food, Chapter III titled "Meals of the People," 
divides the people of medieval times into four classes: the nobleman, 
villager laborer, the artisan, and wealthy merchant, pp 47-64:

. . . ordinary country people  . . . 'black bread' (maslin, barley, rye 
or bean flour) milk, cheese, eggs and occasionally bacon or flour. Dairy 
products . . . known as 'white meat'. . . consumed by all classes in the 
country in medieval times. . .rising prosperity of the early sixteenth 
century they came to be regarded as inferior food fit only for the use 
of the common people.  - chief authority for this statement - from 
Harrison's Description of England.

Drummond continues: . . .  in the middle ages the peasant seldom ate 
meat exempt when he did a little successful poaching or when the lord of 
the manor gave a feast to celebrate the harvest . . food given to 
tenants at ties of 'boon-work' seems to have been barley, oatmeal, 
wheat, herrings and ale of beer ("The Economic and Social History of an 
English Village!, N.S.B. Grass 1930.)  . . . peasants rarely drank 
anything stronger than whey, buttermilk or simply water.
     . . . the poor countryman's food seems to have changed steadily 
for the better during the greater part of the fifteenth century. . . 
larger quantities of beef, mutton and veal. . .
    The second half of the sixteenth century saw a sharp turn for the 
worse. It was a period of depression . .  sheep-farmer was popularly 
blamed. .  .

Drummond continues with "The Peasant's Diet," pp 75-76; "The Condition 
of the Poor," 98-101 etc.

Drummond also explains that he's key sources for information on English 
diets was through chronicles of travelers to England. I have reviewed 
receipts of Spanish and English households. As far as I can see they do 
not enlighten me about eating habits of the classes beneath the nobles. 
The poor scratched the land to eat. The rich had that and more. Although 
Hispanics of the Middle Ages are quick to note there were so many 
classes that even slaves had classes of menus. A 5 star slave received a 
liver or a kidney while a run of the mill slave probably received lamb 
fat as a prize.

Drummond does not seem to get into guilds but aren't guilds a city sort 
of thing? Where there guilds for construction workers? Although gremios 
existed in Spain, I don't have as much information on them as I have on 
guilds in London. - Food wise, I have menus for guild banquets in London 
to which I seriously doubt that construction workers were invited.

In Spain, there is very little documented information on what classes 
beneath nobility ate. There are a few references to slaves' food in 
areas of Hispano-Arab domination but menu's of the poor are slim - as 
Drummond points out pottage's and legumes were the poor man's food, 
Let's face it, the medieval peasant did not need a recipe for a lard and 
black bread sandwich and the noble would not want that recorded in his 
dairies!

To conclude: if we are talking "diets of construction workers in the 
Middle Ages/Renaissance" - I would take a gander at Charles Clyde 
Ebbets' photograph of  "Lunchtime atop of a Skyscraper," and carry on 
from there.

Suey


Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:00:07 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural
	construction	crews &, related food references

<<< I do not understand the question. Are we talking about 
medieval/renaissance architectural constructions concerning alimentation 
or about what construction workers ate? Are we talking about England or 
Europe in general? >>>

My understanding of what is being discussed is the diet and eating customs 
of construction workers in Medieval and Renaissance Europe.  English records 
are more accessible for most of us.

<<< Of construction we have several examples of English palaces and manor 
houses with independent bakery and brewing houses and a kitchen being a 
building separate from the castle as well. Today it is claimed that this 
was because of the fire hazard. I have not run across that type of 
documentation in Spain. >>>

English cooks, bakers and brewers were independent contractors so each had 
their separate domain.  The isolation of kitchens and bakeries from the main 
structures of castle and manor is because of the fire hazard and continued 
in many places into the 20th Century.

<<< If talking about what construction workers ate  - J.C. Drummond in his 
book "The Englishman's Food, Chapter III titled "Meals of the People," 
divides the people of medieval times into four classes: the nobleman, 
villager laborer, the artisan, and wealthy merchant, pp 47-64:

. . . ordinary country people  . . . 'black bread' (maslin, barley, rye or 
bean flour) milk, cheese, eggs and occasionally bacon or flour. Dairy 
products . . . known as 'white meat'. . . consumed by all classes in the 
country in medieval times. . .rising prosperity of the early sixteenth 
century they came to be regarded as inferior food fit only for the use of 
the common people.  - chief authority for this statement - from Harrison's 
Description of England.

Drummond continues: . . .  in the middle ages the peasant seldom ate meat 
exempt when he did a little successful poaching or when the lord of the 
manor gave a feast to celebrate the harvest . . food given to tenants at 
ties of 'boon-work' seems to have been barley, oatmeal, wheat, herrings 
and ale of beer ("The Economic and Social History of an English Village!, 
N.S.B. Grass 1930.)  . . . peasants rarely drank anything stronger than 
whey, buttermilk or simply water.
    . . . the poor countryman's food seems to have changed steadily for 
the better during the greater part of the fifteenth century. . . larger 
quantities of beef, mutton and veal. . .
   The second half of the sixteenth century saw a sharp turn for the 
worse. It was a period of depression . .  sheep-farmer was popularly 
blamed. .  .

Drummond continues with "The Peasant's Diet," pp 75-76; "The Condition of 
the Poor," 98-101 etc.

Drummond also explains that he's key sources for information on English 
diets was through chronicles of travelers to England. I have reviewed 
receipts of Spanish and English households. As far as I can see they do 
not enlighten me about eating habits of the classes beneath the nobles. 
The poor scratched the land to eat. The rich had that and more. Although 
Hispanics of the Middle Ages are quick to note there were so many classes 
that even slaves had classes of menus. A 5 star slave received a liver or 
a kidney while a run of the mill slave probably received lamb fat as a 
prize.

Drummond does not seem to get into guilds but aren't guilds a city sort of 
thing? Where there guilds for construction workers? Although gremios 
existed in Spain, I don't have as much information on them as I have on 
guilds in London. - Food wise, I have menus for guild banquets in London 
to which I seriously doubt that construction workers were invited. >>>

Skilled construction workers (as opposed to day laborers who provided muscle 
as required) were of the artisan class and organized themselves and their 
political power through the craft guilds.  Most guilds were local to a city, 
but connected to other guild houses of their craft in other cities. 
Journeymen might serve masters in a number of guildhouses before find a 
locale where they could settle and become masters.  Masons were among the 
most powerful of the guilds because they were skilled labor in short supply 
often hired across national borders for major projects making them an 
international force.  Any guild might have a guild banquet, but it would 
have been for masters and high value journeymen of the guild and likely 
would serve as a forum for internal guild politics.

Consider also, that an engineer, such as Leonardo Da Vinci, would likely be 
a member of the household of his patron during a project, while a master 
craftsman and his assistants would likely be hired for the project, but not 
be part of the household.

There are differences in the relative power and position of guilds in 
different countries.

<<< In Spain, there is very little documented information on what classes 
beneath nobility ate. There are a few references to slaves' food in areas 
of Hispano-Arab domination but menu's of the poor are slim - as Drummond 
points out pottage's and legumes were the poor man's food, Let's face it, 
the medieval peasant did not need a recipe for a lard and black bread 
sandwich and the noble would not want that recorded in his dairies! >>>

Household accounts have references to the wages paid to workers external to 
but working for the household.  In Northern Europe under the manorial 
system, slaves, serfs and external labor would likely be found in the manor 
accounts.  I am uncertain of how accounts were structured in Southern 
Europe, but I suspect that Spanish accounts, guild structures and power, and 
the like may differ from much of the rest of Europe due to the conflicts 
between the Spanish and Arab cultures.

<<< To conclude: if we are talking "diets of construction workers in the 
Middle Ages/Renaissance" - I would take a gander at Charles Clyde Ebbets' 
photograph of  "Lunchtime atop of a Skyscraper," and carry on from there.
Suey >>>

Perhaps, but I think the diet of construction workers in the Middle 
Ages/Renaissance might have more in common with a ploughman's lunch than 
what is in the lunch pail of a modern steel rigger.

Bear

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	guilds-msg	Page 20 of 20