guilds-msg - 9/21/06 Medieval and SCA guilds. NOTE: See also the files: measures-msg, p-butchering-msg, p-prices-msg, commerce-msg, coins-msg, measures-art, occupations-msg, cookng-guilds-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: habura at vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap) Date: 24 Feb 1994 21:28:45 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble... The fact that a medieval person could have made something at home is not proof that a guild for making it could not have existed. In the only medieval art in which I consider myself well-versed (namely High Middle Ages embroidery), a good chunk of it _was_ done in the home, but there were also guilds of embroiderers in several English cities no later than the 14th century (one 14th c. surviving record is a complaint by two male embroiderers who somehow wound up being admitted as members of the tailor's guild by mistake!) We can also look at some of London's great guilds for confirmation. I'll bet that quite a few people could and did make their own shoes, but that didn't stop the Cordwainers from incorporating. Could a medieval person have laid a stone paving? Yep, but the Pavoirs were a guild anyway. My guess was that a guild could form for any craft where there was a possibility for sales to outstrip the resources of a cottage industry-- embroiderers, weavers, goldsmiths--or where economies of scale made production by professionals cheaper for the consumer than separate home production would be--probably weavers again, glassblowers, bakers. Take a look at your own life. I bake my own bread only if I get a craving for piping hot, perfectly fresh bread. For daily use, I turn to my local bakeries, who produce a good product. On the other hand, purchasing ready-cooked food (restaurants, take-out joints) I do more rarely, because I can do it cheaper and with relatively little effort at home. I almost never make my own clothing, not when I can find a ready-made garment that costs less thjan the materials I would have to purchase to make it at home. I rather suspect that our medieval exemplars made the same cost-benefit calculations. Extending this to soapmaking: Sure, the simple stuff could have been made at home. On the other hand, rendering fat and using lye (do Castile soaps use lye? I've made modern hard soap, which does, but I have no idea what the period methods are) is a pain in the derriere, and would have been a good craft for a guild to coalesce around. Alison MacDermot *Ex Ungue Leonem* Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: marian at world.std.com (marian walke) Subject: Re: Medieval cooks didnt make bread Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:41:30 GMT >>In London, there were *two* guilds of bakers, the Brown Bakers and the White >>Bakers. (One baked only brown bread, the other only white bread.) >> >> Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [mfy at sli.com] >Interesting indeed! Where did you find this? And were both >guilds subject to the same Assize of Loaves? (or is it Assize of >Bread?) >Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) >Barony of Namron, Kingdom of Ansteorra Old Marian commenting here: (major source: C Anne Wilson, "Food and Drink in Britain" - at least, I think that's the title - my much-used paperback lost its cover a few years ago! Items in square brackets [] are my own comments.) Medieval bread was not just divided into white and brown - there were several gradations, and since the same names were not used in all places, there is some confusion about where each kind of bread was placed in the spectrum from whitest to brownest. However, quoting from Wilson: "The best white wheaten bread, made of the finest flour which had been two or three times sieved through woollen and linen bolting cloths, was in the Middle Ages called wastel bread (from the Norman French GASTEL or cake) or pandemain (probably originally from PANIS DOMINI, the sacramental bread, because that was made of the most delicate flour obtainable.... Cocket, another fine white bread, but a slightly less expensive one, was produced until about the beginning of the 16th centruy. But before that time the name manchet had begun to be applied to white bread of the finest quality. Manchets were made up as rather small loaves: in Elizabeth I's reign they were supposed to weigh 'eight ounces into the oven, and six ounces out', and forty were to be made out of the flour bolted from one bushel of corn [i.e., wheat]. Bread described as being 'of whole wheat' was of wheat flour more coarsely sieved than that used for wastel or cocket; while a still coarser and more branny wheat bread was made under the name of 'bis' or 'treet'." Wilson says all these breads were taken into account in the Assize of Bread, which was in operation (with many amendments) from 1267 (our earliest extant version) through 1815. There may be earlier versions no longer extant; it is said to date back to King John (ca 1200). In large towns there were variants of the Assize to cover local variations in bread. "In London the white bakers and the brown or TORTE bakers for a long time had separate guilds. The 'White Book' of the city of London laid down 'that a tourte baker shall not have a bolter nor make white bread'. His brown bread was to include all the husks and bran in the meal, just as it came from the mill. But he was permitted to bake the dough which people brought to him ready made up [a function bakers served for people who made their own dough, but did not have their own ovens], and to make horsebread of peas and beans. In Ipswich, on the other hand, the bakers who baked the fine white loaves...were also allowed to make treet bread from the leavings, after they had sieved their meal and removed the whitest and finest flour.... The same farthing could buy you a given amount of finest white wastel loaf, or twice as much brown or treet loaf. It bought you a loaf of cocket a little larger than the finest white wastel or a wholewheat loaf weighing half again as much as the cocket or a loaf of "other cereals" weighing twice as much as the cocket. However, the actual amount of bread you got for that farthing varied from Assize to Assize; the object was to keep the price of bread steady, and the weight of bread you got for your farthing varied according to the success of harvests and other economic factors. "The rougher breads of servants and laborourers and their families were made of of maslin [mixed rye and wheat] or the local grain: rye in Norfold, barley in northwest England, lowland Scotland, parts of Wales and Cornwall, oats in upland Wales and the Pennines and the Scottish highlands...." [So what kind of dark bread you ate depended on where you lived as well as your social status. The reason for these regional variations was that wheat demands a longer growing season and better soil than were present in the upland and rocky areas. And remember, these variations were all just for Britain, which all together is only about half the size of the state of California. Imagine the variations you get when you're looking at the whole of Europe. This is why there is no ONE "Medieval Bread"!] As for the combining of the two London guilds: According to Wilson, in 1304 there where 32 brown and 21 white bakers. In 1574 there were 36 brown and 62 white bakers. They joined in the 17th century, and the separate guild of brown bakers disappeared. [However, it should be noted that lots of craft guilds amalgamated as time went on, probably to have more clout as one large than as several small guilds. In the 16th C you start seeing combined guilds of "Carpenters and Joiners" or "Masons and Tilers" or "Weavers and Dyers" or "Cooks and Innkeepers." So joining the brown and white bakers may have reflected the temper of the times as much as the demand for brown bread in London.] --Old Marian (Marian of Edwinstowe, Carolingia, East Kingdom (marian at world.std.com) From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/16/95) To: Shore at oo.okstate.edu, Ansteorra at eden.com, Rec-Org-SCA at cs.utexas.edu The New and Improved list of Guild Names This list is part of the residue from a discussion of the naming of "Guilds" in the SCA. I am aware that there are some social groups in the Society that have not fallen prey to the ubiquitous "X-Guild" naming style, but to show the rest, the following is a list of "Guild" names that are from the period. There is a difference between, but an overlapping of, Craft Guilds and Social Guilds, and it might well be that the members of one comprise the membership of the other. Some towns had multiple guilds for the same craft. Many of the guilds (ok, maybe 10%) allowed women to be members as well. Examples of Guild/Gild names: Barber-Surgeon's Company (1461) [Later branched Barbers Co. & Surgeons Co.] Bowyer's Company Brewer's Company (1437) Broderers Company [Embroidery] Brotherhood of Barbers, Norwich Brotherhood of Carpenters Butcher's Company Carmen Company [Carters; Teamsters] Carpenter's Gild, Norwich, The Clothier's Community Clothworker's Company Company of Cutlers Company of Watermen and Lightermen Cutler's Company (1415) Dyers Company (1471) Fanmaker's Company Fellowship of Masons/Fraternity of Masons Fellowship of Porters/Company of Fellowship Porters Feltmaker's Company Fishmonger's Halimont Fishmongers Company (1399) Fletcher's Company Fraternitas Sancte Katerine, Norwich Fraternitas Sancte Trinitatis (in ecclesia Cathedrali Sancte Trinitatis), Norwich Fraternitas Sancti Christofori, Norwich Fraternity and Gild of Merchants Fraternity of Burellers Fraternity of Tailors Fraternity of Woodmongers Free Journeyman Printers Fullers (of X place), The Fullers, Shearmen,and Clothworkers Company Gild Merchant Gild of Cordwainers (1429) Gild of Garlekhith Gild of Merchant Taylors (1327) Gild of Peltyers, Norwich Gild of Saddlers Gild of Saddlers (1394) Gild of St. Anthony, Lynn Gild of St. Botulph, Norwich Gild of St. George, Norwich Gild of St. Katherine, Aldersgate Gild of St. Leonard, Lynn Gild of St. Mary, Norwich Gild of St. Peter Gild of Sts Fabian and Sebastion, Aldersgate Gild of the Bakers Gild of the Holy Cross of Birmingham, The Gild of the Holy Cross, Lynn Gild of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, Lynn Gild of the Palmers Gild of the Purification, Lynn Gild of the Woolweavers Gild of Weavers (constituted in the name of the Holy Cross), Lincoln, The Gild of Young Scholars/Young Scholars (of Lynn), The Glover's Company Gold and Silver Wire Drawers Company Goldsmith's Company (1327) Great Guild of St. John of Beverly Guild of Holy Trinity, Lynn Guild of St. Benedict Guild of St. Thomas of Canterbury, Lynn Gunmakers Company Ironmonger's Company (1464) Joiners and Carpenters of Worcester, The Loriner's Company [Aka Lorimer's; make Bits & Tack] Parish Clerk's Company (1233) Pewterer's Company Playing Card Makers Company Poor Men of Norwich/Poor Men's Gild of Norwich Ringers Gild Saddlers Company Saddlers' and Spurriers' Gild, Norwich, The Shipmanes Gild, Lynn, The Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Spital) Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Bethlem) Society of Apothecaries Spurriers of London/Spurrier's Company, The Tailor's Gild, Norwich, The Tailors Gild, The Tilers & Bricklayers Company Vintner's Company (1437) Water bearers of London, The Wax Chandler's Company (1483) Weaver's Company (1154) Wheelwright's Company White-Tawyers (Megucers), The Woolmens Company Woolweaver's Guild Worshipful Company of Armorers and Braziers (1453) Worshipful Company of Bakers Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths Worshipful Company of Carpenters (1477) Worshipful Company of Clockmakers Worshipful Company of Coachmakers and Coach Harness Makers Worshipful Company of Cooks (1481) Worshipful Company of Coopers/Coopers Company Worshipful Company of Drapers (1429) Worshipful Company of Founders Worshipful Company of Framework-knitters Worshipful Company of Framework Knitters Worshipful Company of Fruiterers Worshipful Company of Gardeners Worshipful Company of Girdlers (1448) Worshipful Company of Glass sellers Worshipful Company of Glaziers Worshipful Company of Grociers (1428) Worshipful Company of Haberdashers (1417) Worshipful Company of Horners Worshipful Company of Innholders Worshipful Company of Joiners Worshipful Company of Leathersellers (1444) Worshipful Company of Mercers/Hospital of St Thomas of Acon Worshipful Company of Musicians (1472) Worshipful Company of Needlemakers Worshipful Company of Painters/Painters-Stainer's Company Worshipful Company of Pattern makers Worshipful Company of Paviors [Paving Stone Layers] Worshipful Company of Plasterers Worshipful Company of Plumbers Worshipful Company of Poulterers Worshipful Company of Salters Worshipful Company of Scriveners Worshipful Company of Shipwrights Worshipful Company of Skinners (1327) Worshipful Company of Spectacle Makers Worshipful Company of Stationers Worshipful Company of Tallow Chandlers (1462) Worshipful Company of Turners Worshipful Company of Upholders From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--??? Date: 22 Jun 1996 15:37:27 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute For Isabelle: Think "dry goods merchant". Quick comment on guild structure. The roles of each guild varied from town to town and from era to era. In York, for example, there was a good deal of "border jumping" between guilds, with people nominally in one guild dabbling in other areas on the side. The Mercers controlled most of the trade of stuffs like fine fabric, threads, metal goods, glass, and etc. into the country, but individual members of other guilds might also be involved in importing their own trade goods. (Example: two York bowyers spent ten years in Prussia in the 14th c., making and transporting to England bowstaves of Baltic yew.) The big advantage the Mercers had, especially in places like London, was access to capital. They were usually one of the earliest guilds in any city, and they used that head start to build up serious fortunes---and, as any modern entrepeneur can tell you, it takes money to make money. The organized Mercers were also generally able (through their usual control of the town-council-equivalent in their cities-- remember, they were prestigious and wealthy) to make life difficult for any other individuals who tried to get involved in large scale trade. While they could be circumvented, it wasn't easy, so the easier way was to join 'em rather than beat 'em. Hope this helps... Alison MacDermot *Ex Ungue Leonem* From: habura at matisse.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--??? Date: 23 Jun 1996 02:15:11 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Wolfram states that the function of the Mercers' guilds was cloth manufacture. As far as I know, generally not, although it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that some, say, English Mercers had interests in Italian weaving industries. When you talk about cloth production per se, several guilds were involved, namely: The Drapers, who were the "big money" players. Odds are that they were commissioning members of other guilds to do work, and were also involved in some imports. The Weavers, who--surprise!--wove the cloth.They generally got their thread from 1) non-Guild-affiliated spinsters, or 2) from imports. The Fullers, who treated cloth the Weavers made. The Clothworkers, who were usually responsible for teasing and trimming the woven/fulled cloth. This was a tricky step, and there are at least some records of clothworkers and fullers being forced to have sellable possessions of a certain value, as a sort of bond against ruining the cloth they were given. The Dyers, who colored the cloth or the thread. (Now you begin to see why there was a Drapers' guild.) The Mercers, although they may have their hands in this process to a certain extent--especially in the import of dyestuffs and silk-- weren't really directly involved in th manufacture of cloth. The word Mercer itself derives from Old French _mercier_ and ultimately from Latin _mercari_, which means "to buy or trade". It's related to the word "merchant", naturally. Mercers didn't _make_ much of anything, although they might arrange for things to be manufactured; their main job was to buy things in Place A, take 'em to Place B, and sell 'em at a profit. Alison MacDermot *Ex Ungue Leonem* From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval guilds--??? Date: 24 Sep 1996 18:55:28 -0400 Organization: The Internet <Alison MacDermot<habura at matisse.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)> >For Isabelle: What, exactly, are you trying to find out? I know of >no single source that's the Definitive Big Book O'Guild Information >(and God knows I've been looking.) However, there are a number of >interesting books and artices on specific aspects of guild organization, >regulation, life of artisans, heraldry, religious aspects, etc. Unfortunately, I agree. However, she *might* consider the following options as a start: Furnivall, F. J. The Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield, being ordinances of the gild of St. Mary, and other documents. London: Pub. for the Early English text society by K. Paul, Trench, Trubner & co., ltd.; and by H. Milford. (Early English Text Society (Series); Extra series, no. 114). [London] and New York: Oxford university press, 1920. [Includes: Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield: Richard II's ordinances (A.D. 1387), English A.D. 1538. Sir Humfrey Stanley's ordinances, A.D. 1486. Dean Heywood's reform of 'Our Lady's alms-chest," A.D. 1486.--First extant charter of the Lichfield tailors. 1576.--Second extant charter of the Lichfield tailors. A.D. 1697.--First extant ordinances of the Lichfields smiths' gild. 1601--Second set of ordinances of the company of Lichfield smiths. 1630.--Ordinances of the Lynn tailors. <A.D. 1449.>--Southampton tailors' petitions. <A.D. 1406-7 and 1468.>] Gross, Charles. The gild merchant, a contribition to British municipal history. Oxford: Clarendon press, 1890. Thorpe, Benjamin. Diplomatarium anglicum aevi saxonici, A collection of English charters, from the reign of King Aethelberht of Kent, A.D. DC.V. to that of William the conqueror. Containing I. Miscellaneous charters. II. Wills. III. Guilds. IV. Manumissions and acquittances with a translation of the Anglo-Saxon. London: Macmillan & Co., 1865. Unwin, George. The gilds and companies of London. 4th ed. London: Frank Cass, 1963. "List of the sources for the history of the existing London companies" I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as: Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra Subject: RE: ANST - Guilds Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:48:10 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> >I am looking for a listing of ranks within a guild i.e. novice, journeyman, >master etc. Does anyone know their specific order or where I could find >them. (without too much effort) > >Rufus Guthrie In general they are apprentice, journeyman, and master. A specific guild might have intermediate rankings or different names. An apprentice contracted with a master to learn a specific trade. The apprentice normally received room, board and instruction in return for his service for at set period of years. At the end of this service and by a display of his skills, an apprentice could become a journeyman. A journeyman was (usually) an itinerant worker. As a member of a guild, he could avail himself of the services of a guild local to find food, lodging and employment. A journeyman was expected to master his craft as widely a possible under as many masters as possible. This insured a high level of skill and reduced competition. A journeyman would usually become a master by inheriting a master's business through relationship, marriage or service or by accumulating enough wealth or patronage to assure a place in a local guild. Bear Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:06:59 -0400 From: Becky Needham <betony at infinet.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Guild Structure There is a lot of Guild information in Kay Staniland's "Embroiderers" from the Medieval Craftsmen series. Bet Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:50:21 -0500 From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> Subject: Re: SC - Guilds & Alcohol law in Ansteorra Lord Ras said something that sounded like: > My question now is what do you mean by the statement concerning the laws > about guilds? Just what I said. The individuals in our guild own everything, and is funded by individuals. Although some of the guilds (such as dance for a boom box that will be used by the Barony when needed) can petition the Barony for funds, the majority are all funded by individuals. Within our guild, there are individuals that have donated equipment to the guild, this follows the Guildmaster and is of questionable ownership. > Since one of the tasks of the A & S minister is to encourage the > formation of Guilds, Our local A&S minister not only enoucrages them, they actually keep track of what they do monthly. - -- Phelim "Pug" Gervase Barony of Bryn Gwlad House Flaming Dog pug at pug.net Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:03:17 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - pie and bread pans > I really need to read these threads more carefully; I've obviously > missed something. I assume (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) > that Stefan felt that there wasn't much baking going on in Pompeii in > the Middle Ages because Pompeii was destroyed in 79 C.E. and, AFAIK, > never rebuilt. True enough. The cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum disappeared in the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE. The Elder Pliny observed the eruption from a vessel in the Bay of Naples, then died of suffocation from the fumes while taking refuge in Stabia. The cities weren't rebuilt, but the area became the site for some villages which still exist, although this may have been after the eruption of 513 CE. > Pompeii is an entire town frozen in time by catastrophe. Only a true > cook would call a pair of baker's rings one of the most important finds, > and for that, Balthazar, I salute you! ; ) How do the rings indicate > that the bakers were guild members? (I've seen them, but not recently.) > Is there something inscribed on them to that effect? If that is the > case, I can see the point, but otherwise it occurs to me that bakers may > have been regulated by law as to loaf sizes, weights, etc. > > Adamantius The rings don't demonstrate that the bakers were members of a guild, but under Roman law bakers were a very segregated, regulated and powerful caste. The guild structure was established about 153 BCE. Bakers were restricted to their trade and the sons of bakers could only apprentice as bakers, although there was a very expensive buy-out option.. Because of their wealth and position, bakers were also limited in political opportunities. Apparently, these laws were more loosely applied in the provinces than in Italy proper. The Roman guild structure appears not to have survived the Empire. When the baker's guilds were resurrected in northern Europe between the 11th and 13th Centuries (best guess) they appear to have been established as organizations affiliated with churches whose congregations were primarily bakers (as with London's Worshipful Company of Bakers). Bear Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:30:09 -0600 From: Jeff Elder <scholari at verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > From Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com> > I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ? bakers' ?) > guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries. Does anyone > have any good references, websites, or the like handy?> > > - Doc A couple links can be found on Wulfric's page: http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madbaker/ Guilds from the Florilegium (mentions the white and brown bead guilds) http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMMERCE/guilds-msg.html Most links seem to always point back to Wulfric of Creigull's website, and the paper he did on "The Rise of Bakers' Guilds in the Middle Ages." Simon Hondy Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:53:03 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ? bakers' ?) > guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries. Does anyone > have any good references, websites, or the like handy? > > - Doc These should get you started. Some of the more scholarly sites have bibliographies you can chase. Bear The Worshipful Company of Bakers (London Baker's Guild) http://www.bakers.co.uk/ York Baker's Guild account book http://www.lancs.ac.uk/users/english/palwork/week19/palwk19.htm Livery Companies of the City of London http://www.wcsim.co.uk/page04.htm Medieval Merchants (list) http://web.archive.org/web/20021216012925/homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/ LND/Indexes/MEDMCHTS.txt Immigrants in Early Tudor London http://www.esh.ed.ac.uk/CEU/Velich.htm Renaissance Guilds http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/guildhall/ guilds/guildinfo.html The Assizes of Bread, Beer and Lucrum Pistoris http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/breadbeer.html Harvard Law on Assize of Bread http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/collections/special/publications/ food/food1.php Dublin Corn Market http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/Gilbert/gilbert7.htm Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:02 -0500 From: "ysabeau" <ysabeau at mail.ev1.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows. One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left to fend for themselves until this tour. Ysabeau Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:49:57 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that > there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows. > One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of > houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I > kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I > think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has > anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left > to fend for themselves until this tour. Short answer- yes! There were a number of different guild and fraternity organizations that provided reliefs to the widows and children of deceased members. It was largely an urban thing though. Long answer- will have to wait until later, likely tonight. I pulled the pertinent books and I'll give you a better recap then- I'm kinda buried in a sewing project and need to keep going while I have the steam up... In the meantime, a quick poke through my bookmarks shows these: http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/24guilds.html http://web.archive.org/web/19990221141432/www.millersv.edu/~english/ homepage/duncan/medfem/guilds.html Good places to start. 'Lainie Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:43:08 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org> Subject: Guilds, was- Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> At 07:20 AM 4/21/2005, you wrote: > On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that > there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows. > <snip> > Has anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left > to fend for themselves until this tour. Ok, I'm back for a longer answer... Basically, there's three social groups that fall under the 'guilds' umbrella. There were merchant guilds, skill/trade guilds, and 'fraternities' (no, not Animal House!). The merchant guilds were based in large trade-hub towns, and controlled trade, often working hand in glove with the government (nothing's changed, eh?) as regarding tariffs and such. The Hanseatic League was an enormous merchant guild that controlled the shipping and trade for the Baltic, North Sea, and into the North Atlantic. Merchant guilds were held tightly by a few select families, but a few rose through the ranks. The trade or skill guilds were also city-based, and were very much like our trade unions. The guilds provided something in quality control- they had specific oversight as regarding apprenticeships and training, they controlled things such as working hours (not just how many, but when- many guilds forbade working by candle-light, for instance), and how many apprentices and journeymen could work with a master. Members of the guild had to meet standards, or be shut down, and no, scabs weren't welcomed then either. There were many benefits though- the guild was a significant social group- they held banquets, participated in parades on feast days or for important occasions, and usually did so dressed in guild livery. They often sponsored charity works, such as hospitals and foundling homes. They also had specific funds (paid into by membership fees and such) for support for families if the guild member was taken ill, burial costs when he died, support for his widow and children- even help for a widow who wished to continue her husband's business (yes, it happened, and often quite successfully). There was even an investment fund for dowries for their daughters (there's a special name for that but I can't remember it at the moment). And there was pension money available when the tradesman was too old to work. The fraternities were similar, with two differences: they were not only city-based- they could be found in the suburbs and sometimes in the countryside; and they were not occupation based, but were purely social. Instead of a trade union, think the Elks, Masons, or Odd Fellows. The fraternities were usually loosely religious-based, honoring a saint, or Our Lady. They filled many of the same roles as the trade guilds, minus the trade. They also held banquets, participated in processions, etc. They also usually had burial and dowry funds available, but less so disability and pension money, which are much more closely tied to actual earnings. But they were available in some places where the trade guilds were not, and filled a social niche that needed filling. There is much more information available of course, so here's a short bibliography of books that have information on the subject (and a few other subjects :-) Christopher Dyer, _Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social Change in England c. 1200-1520_. (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1989) _City and Spectacle in Medieval Europe_, Barbara Hanawalt and Kathryn Reyerson, eds. (University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1994) _The Medieval Town: A Reader in English Urban History, 1200-1540_, Richard Holt and Gervase Rosser, eds. (Longman, London, 1990) _Fifteenth-Century Attitudes: Perceptions of Society in Late Medieval England_, Rosemary Horrox, ed. (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1994) Maurice Keen, _English Society in the Later Middle Ages: 1348-1500_. (Penguin, New York, 1990) You'll also find some interesting difference between women's lives in the small towns and villages, and their lives in large towns where a woman could make an independent life for herself. She might even be able to be declared 'femme sole', which gave her rights to her own earnings, the right to move about as she would, and to sign and extend legally binding contracts. 'Lainie <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris guilds-msg Page 14 of 14