guilds-msg

This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

guilds-msg – 4/20/15

Medieval and SCA guilds.

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

From: habura at vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap)

Date: 24 Feb 1994 21:28:45 GMT

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble...

The fact that a medieval person could have made something at home is not

proof that a guild for making it could not have existed. In the only

medieval art in which I consider myself well-versed (namely High Middle

Ages embroidery), a good chunk of it _was_ done in the home, but there

were also guilds of embroiderers in several English cities no later

than the 14th century (one 14th c. surviving record is a complaint by two

male embroiderers who somehow wound up being admitted as members of the

tailor's guild by mistake!)

We can also look at some of London's great guilds for confirmation. I'll

bet that quite a few people could and did make their own shoes, but that

didn't stop the Cordwainers from incorporating. Could a medieval person

have laid a stone paving? Yep, but the Pavoirs were a guild anyway. My

guess was that a guild could form for any craft where there was a

possibility for sales to outstrip the resources of a cottage industry--

embroiderers, weavers, goldsmiths--or where economies of scale made

production by professionals cheaper for the consumer than separate

home production would be--probably weavers again, glassblowers, bakers.

Take a look at your own life. I bake my own bread only if I get a craving

for piping hot, perfectly fresh bread. For daily use, I turn to my

local bakeries, who produce a good product. On the other hand, purchasing

ready-cooked food (restaurants, take-out joints) I do more rarely, because

I can do it cheaper and with relatively little effort at home. I almost never

make my own clothing, not when I can find a ready-made garment that costs less

thjan the materials I would have to purchase to make it at home.

I rather suspect that our medieval exemplars made the same cost-benefit

calculations.

Extending this to soapmaking: Sure, the simple stuff could have been

made at home. On the other hand, rendering fat and using lye (do

Castile soaps use lye? I've made modern hard soap, which does, but I have

no idea what the period methods are) is a pain in the derriere, and would

have been a good craft for a guild to coalesce around.

Alison MacDermot

*Ex Ungue Leonem*

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: marian at world.std.com (marian walke)

Subject: Re: Medieval cooks didnt make bread

Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:41:30 GMT

>>In London, there were *two* guilds of bakers, the Brown Bakers and the White

>>Bakers. (One baked only brown bread, the other only white bread.)

>> Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [mfy at sli.com]

>Interesting indeed! Where did you find this? And were both

>guilds subject to the same Assize of Loaves? (or is it Assize of

>Bread?)

>Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews)

>Barony of Namron, Kingdom of Ansteorra

Old Marian commenting here:

(major source: C Anne Wilson, "Food and Drink in Britain" - at least, I

think that's the title - my much-used paperback lost its cover a few

years ago! Items in square brackets [] are my own comments.)

Medieval bread was not just divided into white and brown - there were

several gradations, and since the same names were not used in all places,

there is some confusion about where each kind of bread was placed in the

spectrum from whitest to brownest. However, quoting from Wilson:

"The best white wheaten bread, made of the finest flour which had been two

or three times sieved through woollen and linen bolting cloths, was in

the Middle Ages called wastel bread (from the Norman French GASTEL or

cake) or pandemain (probably originally from PANIS DOMINI, the

sacramental bread, because that was made of the most delicate flour

obtainable.... Cocket, another fine white bread, but a slightly less

expensive one, was produced until about the beginning of the 16th

centruy. But before that time the name manchet had begun to be applied

to white bread of the finest quality. Manchets were made up as rather

small loaves: in Elizabeth I's reign they were supposed to weigh 'eight

ounces into the oven, and six ounces out', and forty were to be made out

of the flour bolted from one bushel of corn [i.e., wheat]. Bread

described as being 'of whole wheat' was of wheat flour more coarsely

sieved than that used for wastel or cocket; while a still coarser and

more branny wheat bread was made under the name of 'bis' or 'treet'."

Wilson says all these breads were taken into account in the Assize of

Bread, which was in operation (with many amendments) from 1267 (our

earliest extant version) through 1815. There may be earlier versions no

longer extant; it is said to date back to King John (ca 1200). In large

towns there were variants of the Assize to cover local variations in bread.

"In London the white bakers and the brown or TORTE bakers for a long time

had separate guilds. The 'White Book' of the city of London laid down

'that a tourte baker shall not have a bolter nor make white bread'. His

brown bread was to include all the husks and bran in the meal, just as it

came from the mill. But he was permitted to bake the dough which people

brought to him ready made up [a function bakers served for people who

made their own dough, but did not have their own ovens], and to make

horsebread of peas and beans. In Ipswich, on the other hand, the bakers

who baked the fine white loaves...were also allowed to make treet bread

from the leavings, after they had sieved their meal and removed the

whitest and finest flour....

The same farthing could buy you a given amount of finest white wastel

loaf, or twice as much brown or treet loaf. It bought you a loaf of

cocket a little larger than the finest white wastel or a wholewheat loaf

weighing half again as much as the cocket or a loaf of "other cereals"

weighing twice as much as the cocket. However, the actual amount of

bread you got for that farthing varied from Assize to Assize; the object

was to keep the price of bread steady, and the weight of bread you got

for your farthing varied according to the success of harvests and other

economic factors.

"The rougher breads of servants and laborourers and their families were

made of of maslin [mixed rye and wheat] or the local grain: rye in

Norfold, barley in northwest England, lowland Scotland, parts of Wales

and Cornwall, oats in upland Wales and the Pennines and the Scottish

highlands...." [So what kind of dark bread you ate depended on where you

lived as well as your social status. The reason for these regional

variations was that wheat demands a longer growing season and better soil

than were present in the upland and rocky areas. And remember, these

variations were all just for Britain, which all together is only about

half the size of the state of California. Imagine the variations you get

when you're looking at the whole of Europe. This is why there is no ONE

"Medieval Bread"!]

As for the combining of the two London guilds: According to Wilson, in

1304 there where 32 brown and 21 white bakers. In 1574 there were 36

brown and 62 white bakers. They joined in the 17th century, and the

separate guild of brown bakers disappeared.

[However, it should be noted that lots of craft guilds amalgamated as time

went on, probably to have more clout as one large than as several small

guilds. In the 16th C you start seeing combined guilds of "Carpenters

and Joiners" or "Masons and Tilers" or "Weavers and Dyers" or "Cooks and

Innkeepers." So joining the brown and white bakers may have reflected

the temper of the times as much as the demand for brown bread in London.]

--Old Marian

(Marian of Edwinstowe, Carolingia, East Kingdom (marian at world.std.com)

From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/16/95)

To: Shore at oo.okstate.edu, Ansteorra at eden.com, Rec-Org-SCA at cs.utexas.edu

The New and Improved list of Guild Names

This list is part of the residue from a discussion of the naming

of "Guilds" in the SCA. I am aware that there are some social groups

in the Society that have not fallen prey to the ubiquitous "X-Guild"

naming style, but to show the rest, the following is a list of "Guild"

names that are from the period.

There is a difference between, but an overlapping of, Craft Guilds and

Social Guilds, and it might well be that the members of one comprise the

membership of the other. Some towns had multiple guilds for the same craft.

Many of the guilds (ok, maybe 10%) allowed women to be members as well.

Examples of Guild/Gild names:

Barber-Surgeon's Company (1461) [Later branched Barbers Co. & Surgeons Co.]

Bowyer's Company

Brewer's Company (1437)

Broderers Company [Embroidery]

Brotherhood of Barbers, Norwich

Brotherhood of Carpenters

Butcher's Company

Carmen Company [Carters; Teamsters]

Carpenter's Gild, Norwich, The

Clothier's Community

Clothworker's Company

Company of Cutlers

Company of Watermen and Lightermen

Cutler's Company (1415)

Dyers Company (1471)

Fanmaker's Company

Fellowship of Masons/Fraternity of Masons

Fellowship of Porters/Company of Fellowship Porters

Feltmaker's Company

Fishmonger's Halimont

Fishmongers Company (1399)

Fletcher's Company

Fraternitas Sancte Katerine, Norwich

Fraternitas Sancte Trinitatis (in ecclesia Cathedrali Sancte Trinitatis), Norwich

Fraternitas Sancti Christofori, Norwich

Fraternity and Gild of Merchants

Fraternity of Burellers

Fraternity of Tailors

Fraternity of Woodmongers

Free Journeyman Printers

Fullers (of X place), The

Fullers, Shearmen,and Clothworkers Company

Gild Merchant

Gild of Cordwainers (1429)

Gild of Garlekhith

Gild of Merchant Taylors (1327)

Gild of Peltyers, Norwich

Gild of Saddlers

Gild of Saddlers (1394)

Gild of St. Anthony, Lynn

Gild of St. Botulph, Norwich

Gild of St. George, Norwich

Gild of St. Katherine, Aldersgate

Gild of St. Leonard, Lynn

Gild of St. Mary, Norwich

Gild of St. Peter

Gild of Sts Fabian and Sebastion, Aldersgate

Gild of the Bakers

Gild of the Holy Cross of Birmingham, The

Gild of the Holy Cross, Lynn

Gild of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, Lynn

Gild of the Palmers

Gild of the Purification, Lynn

Gild of the Woolweavers

Gild of Weavers (constituted in the name of the Holy Cross), Lincoln, The

Gild of Young Scholars/Young Scholars (of Lynn), The

Glover's Company

Gold and Silver Wire Drawers Company

Goldsmith's Company (1327)

Great Guild of St. John of Beverly

Guild of Holy Trinity, Lynn

Guild of St. Benedict

Guild of St. Thomas of Canterbury, Lynn

Gunmakers Company

Ironmonger's Company (1464)

Joiners and Carpenters of Worcester, The

Loriner's Company [Aka Lorimer's; make Bits & Tack]

Parish Clerk's Company (1233)

Pewterer's Company

Playing Card Makers Company

Poor Men of Norwich/Poor Men's Gild of Norwich

Ringers Gild

Saddlers Company

Saddlers' and Spurriers' Gild, Norwich, The

Shipmanes Gild, Lynn, The

Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Spital)

Skinner's Guild, London (St. Mary Bethlem)

Society of Apothecaries

Spurriers of London/Spurrier's Company, The

Tailor's Gild, Norwich, The

Tailors Gild, The

Tilers & Bricklayers Company

Vintner's Company (1437)

Water bearers of London, The

Wax Chandler's Company (1483)

Weaver's Company (1154)

Wheelwright's Company

White-Tawyers (Megucers), The

Woolmens Company

Woolweaver's Guild

Worshipful Company of Armorers and Braziers (1453)

Worshipful Company of Bakers

Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths

Worshipful Company of Carpenters (1477)

Worshipful Company of Clockmakers

Worshipful Company of Coachmakers and Coach Harness Makers

Worshipful Company of Cooks (1481)

Worshipful Company of Coopers/Coopers Company

Worshipful Company of Drapers (1429)

Worshipful Company of Founders

Worshipful Company of Framework-knitters

Worshipful Company of Framework Knitters

Worshipful Company of Fruiterers

Worshipful Company of Gardeners

Worshipful Company of Girdlers (1448)

Worshipful Company of Glass sellers

Worshipful Company of Glaziers

Worshipful Company of Grociers (1428)

Worshipful Company of Haberdashers (1417)

Worshipful Company of Horners

Worshipful Company of Innholders

Worshipful Company of Joiners

Worshipful Company of Leathersellers (1444)

Worshipful Company of Mercers/Hospital of St Thomas of Acon

Worshipful Company of Musicians (1472)

Worshipful Company of Needlemakers

Worshipful Company of Painters/Painters-Stainer's Company

Worshipful Company of Pattern makers

Worshipful Company of Paviors [Paving Stone Layers]

Worshipful Company of Plasterers

Worshipful Company of Plumbers

Worshipful Company of Poulterers

Worshipful Company of Salters

Worshipful Company of Scriveners

Worshipful Company of Shipwrights

Worshipful Company of Skinners (1327)

Worshipful Company of Spectacle Makers

Worshipful Company of Stationers

Worshipful Company of Tallow Chandlers (1462)

Worshipful Company of Turners

Worshipful Company of Upholders

From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--???

Date: 22 Jun 1996 15:37:27 GMT

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

For Isabelle: Think "dry goods merchant".

Quick comment on guild structure. The roles of each guild varied

from town to town and from era to era. In York, for example,

there was a good deal of "border jumping" between guilds, with

people nominally in one guild dabbling in other areas on the

side. The Mercers controlled most of the trade of stuffs like

fine fabric, threads, metal goods, glass, and etc. into the

country, but individual members of other guilds might also be

involved in importing their own trade goods. (Example: two

York bowyers spent ten years in Prussia in the 14th c., making

and transporting to England bowstaves of Baltic yew.)

The big advantage the Mercers had, especially in places like

London, was access to capital. They were usually one of the earliest

guilds in any city, and they used that head start to build up

serious fortunes---and, as any modern entrepeneur can tell you,

it takes money to make money.

The organized Mercers were also generally able (through their

usual control of the town-council-equivalent in their cities--

remember, they were prestigious and wealthy) to make life

difficult for any other individuals who tried to get involved

in large scale trade. While they could be circumvented, it wasn't

easy, so the easier way was to join 'em rather than beat 'em.

Hope this helps...

Alison MacDermot

*Ex Ungue Leonem*

From: habura at matisse.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mercers' Guild--???

Date: 23 Jun 1996 02:15:11 GMT

Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Wolfram states that the function of the Mercers' guilds was cloth

manufacture.

As far as I know, generally not, although it wouldn't surprise me

a bit to learn that some, say, English Mercers had interests in Italian

weaving industries.

When you talk about cloth production per se, several guilds were

involved, namely:

The Drapers, who were the "big money" players. Odds are that they

were commissioning members of other guilds to do work, and were also

involved in some imports.

The Weavers, who--surprise!--wove the cloth.They generally got their thread

from 1) non-Guild-affiliated spinsters, or 2) from imports.

The Fullers, who treated cloth the Weavers made.

The Clothworkers, who were usually responsible for teasing and trimming

the woven/fulled cloth. This was a tricky step, and there are at least some

records of clothworkers and fullers being forced to have sellable

possessions of a certain value, as a sort of bond against ruining the

cloth they were given.

The Dyers, who colored the cloth or the thread.

(Now you begin to see why there was a Drapers' guild.)

The Mercers, although they may have their hands in this process

to a certain extent--especially in the import of dyestuffs and silk--

weren't really directly involved in th manufacture of cloth.

The word Mercer itself derives from Old French _mercier_ and

ultimately from Latin _mercari_, which means "to buy or trade".

It's related to the word "merchant", naturally. Mercers didn't

_make_ much of anything, although they might arrange for things to

be manufactured; their main job was to buy things in Place A,

take 'em to Place B, and sell 'em at a profit.

Alison MacDermot

*Ex Ungue Leonem*

From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval guilds--???

Date: 24 Sep 1996 18:55:28 -0400

Organization: The Internet

>For Isabelle: What, exactly, are you trying to find out? I know of

>no single source that's the Definitive Big Book O'Guild Information

>(and God knows I've been looking.) However, there are a number of

>interesting books and artices on specific aspects of guild organization,

>regulation, life of artisans, heraldry, religious aspects, etc.

Unfortunately, I agree. However, she *might* consider the following

options as a start:

Furnivall, F. J. The Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield, being ordinances of

the gild of St. Mary, and other documents. London: Pub. for the

Early English text society by K. Paul, Trench, Trubner & co., ltd.;

and by H. Milford. (Early English Text Society (Series); Extra series,

no. 114). [London] and New York: Oxford university press,

1920.

[Includes:

Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield: Richard II's ordinances (A.D. 1387),

English A.D. 1538. Sir Humfrey Stanley's ordinances, A.D. 1486. Dean

Heywood's reform of 'Our Lady's alms-chest," A.D. 1486.--First extant

charter of the Lichfield tailors. 1576.--Second extant charter of the

Lichfield tailors. A.D. 1697.--First extant ordinances of the

Lichfields smiths' gild. 1601--Second set of ordinances of the company

of Lichfield smiths. 1630.--Ordinances of the Lynn tailors. <A.D.

1449.>--Southampton tailors' petitions. <A.D. 1406-7 and 1468.>]

Gross, Charles. The gild merchant, a contribition to British municipal

history. Oxford: Clarendon press, 1890.

Thorpe, Benjamin. Diplomatarium anglicum aevi saxonici, A collection of

English charters, from the reign of King Aethelberht of Kent, A.D.

DC.V. to that of William the conqueror. Containing I. Miscellaneous

charters. II. Wills. III. Guilds. IV. Manumissions and acquittances

with a translation of the Anglo-Saxon. London: Macmillan & Co., 1865.

Unwin, George. The gilds and companies of London. 4th ed. London:

Frank Cass, 1963. "List of the sources for the history of the

existing London companies"

I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU

Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:

Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep

Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

Subject: RE: ANST - Guilds

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 15:48:10 MST

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

>I am looking for a listing of ranks within a guild i.e. novice, journeyman,

>master etc. Does anyone know their specific order or where I could find

>them. (without too much effort)

>Rufus Guthrie

In general they are apprentice, journeyman, and master. A specific

guild might have intermediate rankings or different names.

An apprentice contracted with a master to learn a specific trade. The

apprentice normally received room, board and instruction in return for

his service for at set period of years. At the end of this service and

by a display of his skills, an apprentice could become a journeyman.

A journeyman was (usually) an itinerant worker. As a member of a guild,

he could avail himself of the services of a guild local to find food,

lodging and employment. A journeyman was expected to master his craft

as widely a possible under as many masters as possible. This insured a

high level of skill and reduced competition.

A journeyman would usually become a master by inheriting a master's

business through relationship, marriage or service or by accumulating

enough wealth or patronage to assure a place in a local guild.

Bear

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:06:59 -0400

From: Becky Needham <betony at infinet.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Guild Structure

There is a lot of Guild information in Kay Staniland's "Embroiderers"

from the Medieval Craftsmen series.

Bet

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:50:21 -0500

From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Guilds & Alcohol law in Ansteorra

Lord Ras said something that sounded like:

> My question now is what do you mean by the statement concerning the laws

> about guilds?

Just what I said. The individuals in our guild own everything, and is

funded by individuals. Although some of the guilds (such as dance for a

boom box that will be used by the Barony when needed) can petition the

Barony for funds, the majority are all funded by individuals.

Within our guild, there are individuals that have donated equipment to

the guild, this follows the Guildmaster and is of questionable ownership.

> Since one of the tasks of the A & S minister is to encourage the

> formation of Guilds,

Our local A&S minister not only enoucrages them, they actually keep

track of what they do monthly.

- --

Phelim "Pug" Gervase

Barony of Bryn Gwlad

House Flaming Dog

pug at pug.net

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:38:47 -0000

From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>

To: "LIST Sca Arts" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: British Guild records

Try:

http://www.thenortheast.com/archives/7_GuildRecords.html

Mel

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:03:17 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - pie and bread pans

> I really need to read these threads more carefully; I've obviously

> missed something. I assume (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

> that Stefan felt that there wasn't much baking going on in Pompeii in

> the Middle Ages because Pompeii was destroyed in 79 C.E. and, AFAIK,

> never rebuilt.

True enough. The cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum disappeared in the

eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE. The Elder Pliny observed the eruption from

a vessel in the Bay of Naples, then died of suffocation from the fumes while

taking refuge in Stabia.

The cities weren't rebuilt, but the area became the site for some villages

which still exist, although this may have been after the eruption of 513 CE.

> Pompeii is an entire town frozen in time by catastrophe. Only a true

> cook would call a pair of baker's rings one of the most important finds,

> and for that, Balthazar, I salute you! ; ) How do the rings indicate

> that the bakers were guild members? (I've seen them, but not recently.)

> Is there something inscribed on them to that effect? If that is the

> case, I can see the point, but otherwise it occurs to me that bakers may

> have been regulated by law as to loaf sizes, weights, etc.

> Adamantius

The rings don't demonstrate that the bakers were members of a guild, but

under Roman law bakers were a very segregated, regulated and powerful caste.

The guild structure was established about 153 BCE. Bakers were restricted

to their trade and the sons of bakers could only apprentice as bakers,

although there was a very expensive buy-out option.. Because of their

wealth and position, bakers were also limited in political opportunities.

Apparently, these laws were more loosely applied in the provinces than in

Italy proper.

The Roman guild structure appears not to have survived the Empire. When the

baker's guilds were resurrected in northern Europe between the 11th and 13th

Centuries (best guess) they appear to have been established as organizations

affiliated with churches whose congregations were primarily bakers (as with

London's Worshipful Company of Bakers).

Bear

Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:30:09 -0600

From: Jeff Elder <scholari at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> From Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>

> I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ? bakers' ?)

> guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries. Does anyone

> have any good references, websites, or the like handy?>

> - Doc

A couple links can be found on Wulfric's page:

http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madbaker/

Guilds from the Florilegium (mentions the white and brown bead guilds)

http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMMERCE/guilds-msg.html

Most links seem to always point back to Wulfric of Creigull's website,

and the paper he did on "The Rise of Bakers' Guilds

in the Middle Ages."

Simon Hondy

Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:53:03 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about bakers guilds

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I'm looking for information on English bakers (baker's ? bakers' ?)

> guilds for any time in the 14th through 16th centuries. Does anyone

> have any good references, websites, or the like handy?

> - Doc

These should get you started. Some of the more scholarly sites have

bibliographies you can chase.

Bear

The Worshipful Company of Bakers (London Baker's Guild)

http://www.bakers.co.uk/

York Baker's Guild account book

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/users/english/palwork/week19/palwk19.htm

Livery Companies of the City of London

http://www.wcsim.co.uk/page04.htm

Medieval Merchants (list)

http://web.archive.org/web/20021216012925/homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/

LND/Indexes/MEDMCHTS.txt

Immigrants in Early Tudor London

http://www.esh.ed.ac.uk/CEU/Velich.htm

Renaissance Guilds

http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/guildhall/

guilds/guildinfo.html

The Assizes of Bread, Beer and Lucrum Pistoris

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/breadbeer.html

Harvard Law on Assize of Bread

http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/collections/special/publications/

food/food1.php

Dublin Corn Market

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/Gilbert/gilbert7.htm

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:49:19 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: [SCA-AS] guilds (was Laurelling stuff)

To: Arts and Sciences in the SCA <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

<< -Carowyn, who witnessed it all from the sideline after the EK Herbalist

tithe was given and we were dismissed (but *she* wasn't!!!), and there's

video too! ;-) >>

<<< Herbalists pay tithes?

I realize it is a passion with some folks, but a taxed religion too? >>>

Hm.. it's really more of a peppercorn rent.

The original idea was that giving stuff to the crown would make them a)

notice us, b) notice what we did, and c) if we stopped doing it, someone

might notice it-- seeing as at the time I started the guild, the kingdom

cooksguild had been in abeyance for over 20 years and nobody had noticed

it was missing. :)

Basically, we make up a bunch of samples of our work and present 'em to

the Queen. We generally do it once a year but often we can come up with

something to give the Summer Reign Royals as well.

I'm not sure what effect, if any, this has had on the guild, the kingdom

as a whole, etc. Nor whether it is a pro or a con.

How do other kingdom's guilds work? In the East, we have a few very old

guilds and some that are relatively new and rather relaxed in our ways

of handling things.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:34:32 -0500 (EST)

From: john j cash <jcash at indiana.edu>

Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] guilds (was Laurelling stuff)

To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Arts and Sciences in the SCA

I was active in the East Kingdom for several years, and I always liked the

idea of annual guild presentations to the crown. As Jadwiga says, it has

the advantages of visibility. More than this, though, it gives the guild

or organization a minimum level of activity, just as an annual event does

for a group -- "we always do the X Event." Further, it places the focus on

the group as the continual center of activity, rather than the Crown who

in fact come and go.

Many years back in Carolingia (Boston MA area) I got a group together who

were interested in peasant activities, in contrast to the more elegant

courtly activities. Every year we presented stuff to the Baron -- fennel

cakes, strips of embroidery, vegetables, but always and chiefly a rock

(from the rocky soil) with which to make stone soup. Although membership

has changed, activity levels have fluctuated, and the Baron has had

successors, the peasants have presented a rock every year since.

-- Johannes

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:02 -0500

From: "ysabeau" <ysabeau at mail.ev1.net>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that

there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.

One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of

houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I

kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I

think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has

anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left

to fend for themselves until this tour.

Ysabeau

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:49:57 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow

To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that

> there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.

> One of the streets I saw, I think in Hamburg, was a series of

> houses that were used for the widows of a certain type of guild. I

> kept meaning to go back and get more information on it because I

> think that was the pre-cursor for social security ~grin~. Has

> anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left

> to fend for themselves until this tour.

Short answer- yes! There were a number of different guild and fraternity

organizations that provided reliefs to the widows and children of deceased

members. It was largely an urban thing though.

Long answer- will have to wait until later, likely tonight. I pulled the

pertinent books and I'll give you a better recap then- I'm kinda buried in

a sewing project and need to keep going while I have the steam up...

In the meantime, a quick poke through my bookmarks shows these:

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/24guilds.html

http://web.archive.org/web/19990221141432/www.millersv.edu/~english/

homepage/duncan/medfem/guilds.html

Good places to start.

'Lainie

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:43:08 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>

Subject: Guilds, was- Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: poor widow

To: ysabeau at mail.ev1.net, Cooks within the SCA

<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 07:20 AM 4/21/2005, you wrote:

> On a slightly different tangent, I was surprised to find that

> there was a system set up in the guilds to take care of widows.

> <snip>

> Has anyone else heard of this? I always thought that widows were left

> to fend for themselves until this tour.

Ok, I'm back for a longer answer...

Basically, there's three social groups that fall under the 'guilds'

umbrella. There were merchant guilds, skill/trade guilds, and

'fraternities' (no, not Animal House!).

The merchant guilds were based in large trade-hub towns, and controlled

trade, often working hand in glove with the government (nothing's changed,

eh?) as regarding tariffs and such. The Hanseatic League was an enormous

merchant guild that controlled the shipping and trade for the Baltic, North

Sea, and into the North Atlantic. Merchant guilds were held tightly by a

few select families, but a few rose through the ranks.

The trade or skill guilds were also city-based, and were very much like our

trade unions. The guilds provided something in quality control- they had

specific oversight as regarding apprenticeships and training, they

controlled things such as working hours (not just how many, but when- many

guilds forbade working by candle-light, for instance), and how many

apprentices and journeymen could work with a master. Members of the guild

had to meet standards, or be shut down, and no, scabs weren't welcomed then

either. There were many benefits though- the guild was a significant social

group- they held banquets, participated in parades on feast days or for

important occasions, and usually did so dressed in guild livery. They often

sponsored charity works, such as hospitals and foundling homes. They also

had specific funds (paid into by membership fees and such) for support for

families if the guild member was taken ill, burial costs when he died,

support for his widow and children- even help for a widow who wished to

continue her husband's business (yes, it happened, and often quite

successfully). There was even an investment fund for dowries for their

daughters (there's a special name for that but I can't remember it at the

moment). And there was pension money available when the tradesman was too

old to work.

The fraternities were similar, with two differences: they were not only

city-based- they could be found in the suburbs and sometimes in the

countryside; and they were not occupation based, but were purely social.

Instead of a trade union, think the Elks, Masons, or Odd Fellows. The

fraternities were usually loosely religious-based, honoring a saint, or Our

Lady. They filled many of the same roles as the trade guilds, minus the

trade. They also held banquets, participated in processions, etc. They also

usually had burial and dowry funds available, but less so disability and

pension money, which are much more closely tied to actual earnings. But

they were available in some places where the trade guilds were not, and

filled a social niche that needed filling.

There is much more information available of course, so here's a short

bibliography of books that have information on the subject (and a few other

subjects :-)

Christopher Dyer, _Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social

Change in England c. 1200-1520_. (Cambridge University Press,

Cambridge, 1989)

_City and Spectacle in Medieval Europe_, Barbara Hanawalt and Kathryn

Reyerson, eds. (University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1994)

_The Medieval Town: A Reader in English Urban History, 1200-1540_,

Richard

Holt and Gervase Rosser, eds. (Longman, London, 1990)

_Fifteenth-Century Attitudes: Perceptions of Society in Late Medieval

England_, Rosemary Horrox, ed. (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,

1994)

Maurice Keen, _English Society in the Later Middle Ages: 1348-1500_.

(Penguin, New York, 1990)

You'll also find some interesting difference between women's lives in the

small towns and villages, and their lives in large towns where a woman

could make an independent life for herself. She might even be able to be

declared 'femme sole', which gave her rights to her own earnings, the right

to move about as she would, and to sign and extend legally binding

contracts.

'Lainie

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:28:04 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural

construction crews & related food references

I would need to dig around for the sources, but a guild worker would be

hired for part of a project and a portion of his wage would be bread, beer

and specific weekly amounts of meat or fish. These would be recorded in the

household accounts. The consumables would be for the worker and his family.

The basics might be supplemented by the generosity of the employer or by

purchase from the monetary portion of the wages. In general, all guilds

would have been eating roughly the same things although that could vary by

location.

I don't recall anything about how guildsmen ate on the jobsite, but given

the way they were paid, it suggests that they brought their lunches with

them. As hired men for s specific project, they would likely not be

considered part of the household and would probably not eat the communal

meals with the household.

Bear

Bear wrote:

< Medieval and Renaissance construction was centered around the craft

guilds, mason, painters, carpenters, etc. Without knowing precisely what

you are after, try googling medieval construction, medieval mason guilds,

medieval carpenter guilds and medieval painter guilds for images. >

<<< Having already googled, I thought to ask here as my google fu failed.

Perhaps I can make myself more clear. Say a building needed to be built.

Say that it's a stone building in large part, perhaps a castle keep or a

cathedral. There would clearly be construction workers on site at said

building. What would they have eaten? Would the various guild groups have

eaten something different? Would they have brought their own food or fed

communally? >>>

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:59:18 -0400

From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural

construction crews &, related food references

I do not understand the question. Are we talking about

medieval/renaissance architectural constructions concerning alimentation

or about what construction workers ate? Are we talking about England or

Europe in general?

Of construction we have several examples of English palaces and manor

houses with independent bakery and brewing houses and a kitchen being a

building separate from the castle as well. Today it is claimed that this

was because of the fire hazard. I have not run across that type of

documentation in Spain.

If talking about what construction workers ate - J.C. Drummond in his

book "The Englishman's Food, Chapter III titled "Meals of the People,"

divides the people of medieval times into four classes: the nobleman,

villager laborer, the artisan, and wealthy merchant, pp 47-64:

. . . ordinary country people . . . 'black bread' (maslin, barley, rye

or bean flour) milk, cheese, eggs and occasionally bacon or flour. Dairy

products . . . known as 'white meat'. . . consumed by all classes in the

country in medieval times. . .rising prosperity of the early sixteenth

century they came to be regarded as inferior food fit only for the use

of the common people. - chief authority for this statement - from

Harrison's Description of England.

Drummond continues: . . . in the middle ages the peasant seldom ate

meat exempt when he did a little successful poaching or when the lord of

the manor gave a feast to celebrate the harvest . . food given to

tenants at ties of 'boon-work' seems to have been barley, oatmeal,

wheat, herrings and ale of beer ("The Economic and Social History of an

English Village!, N.S.B. Grass 1930.) . . . peasants rarely drank

anything stronger than whey, buttermilk or simply water.

. . . the poor countryman's food seems to have changed steadily

for the better during the greater part of the fifteenth century. . .

larger quantities of beef, mutton and veal. . .

The second half of the sixteenth century saw a sharp turn for the

worse. It was a period of depression . . sheep-farmer was popularly

blamed. . .

Drummond continues with "The Peasant's Diet," pp 75-76; "The Condition

of the Poor," 98-101 etc.

Drummond also explains that he's key sources for information on English

diets was through chronicles of travelers to England. I have reviewed

receipts of Spanish and English households. As far as I can see they do

not enlighten me about eating habits of the classes beneath the nobles.

The poor scratched the land to eat. The rich had that and more. Although

Hispanics of the Middle Ages are quick to note there were so many

classes that even slaves had classes of menus. A 5 star slave received a

liver or a kidney while a run of the mill slave probably received lamb

fat as a prize.

Drummond does not seem to get into guilds but aren't guilds a city sort

of thing? Where there guilds for construction workers? Although gremios

existed in Spain, I don't have as much information on them as I have on

guilds in London. - Food wise, I have menus for guild banquets in London

to which I seriously doubt that construction workers were invited.

In Spain, there is very little documented information on what classes

beneath nobility ate. There are a few references to slaves' food in

areas of Hispano-Arab domination but menu's of the poor are slim - as

Drummond points out pottage's and legumes were the poor man's food,

Let's face it, the medieval peasant did not need a recipe for a lard and

black bread sandwich and the noble would not want that recorded in his

dairies!

To conclude: if we are talking "diets of construction workers in the

Middle Ages/Renaissance" - I would take a gander at Charles Clyde

Ebbets' photograph of "Lunchtime atop of a Skyscraper," and carry on

from there.

Suey

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:00:07 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] medieval/renaissance architectural

construction crews &, related food references

<<< I do not understand the question. Are we talking about

medieval/renaissance architectural constructions concerning alimentation

or about what construction workers ate? Are we talking about England or

Europe in general? >>>

My understanding of what is being discussed is the diet and eating customs

of construction workers in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. English records

are more accessible for most of us.

<<< Of construction we have several examples of English palaces and manor

houses with independent bakery and brewing houses and a kitchen being a

building separate from the castle as well. Today it is claimed that this

was because of the fire hazard. I have not run across that type of

documentation in Spain. >>>

English cooks, bakers and brewers were independent contractors so each had

their separate domain. The isolation of kitchens and bakeries from the main

structures of castle and manor is because of the fire hazard and continued

in many places into the 20th Century.

<<< If talking about what construction workers ate - J.C. Drummond in his

book "The Englishman's Food, Chapter III titled "Meals of the People,"

divides the people of medieval times into four classes: the nobleman,

villager laborer, the artisan, and wealthy merchant, pp 47-64:

. . . ordinary country people . . . 'black bread' (maslin, barley, rye or

bean flour) milk, cheese, eggs and occasionally bacon or flour. Dairy

products . . . known as 'white meat'. . . consumed by all classes in the

country in medieval times. . .rising prosperity of the early sixteenth

century they came to be regarded as inferior food fit only for the use of

the common people. - chief authority for this statement - from Harrison's

Description of England.

Drummond continues: . . . in the middle ages the peasant seldom ate meat

exempt when he did a little successful poaching or when the lord of the

manor gave a feast to celebrate the harvest . . food given to tenants at

ties of 'boon-work' seems to have been barley, oatmeal, wheat, herrings

and ale of beer ("The Economic and Social History of an English Village!,

N.S.B. Grass 1930.) . . . peasants rarely drank anything stronger than

whey, buttermilk or simply water.

. . . the poor countryman's food seems to have changed steadily for

the better during the greater part of the fifteenth century. . . larger

quantities of beef, mutton and veal. . .

The second half of the sixteenth century saw a sharp turn for the

worse. It was a period of depression . . sheep-farmer was popularly

blamed. . .

Drummond continues with "The Peasant's Diet," pp 75-76; "The Condition of

the Poor," 98-101 etc.

Drummond also explains that he's key sources for information on English

diets was through chronicles of travelers to England. I have reviewed

receipts of Spanish and English households. As far as I can see they do

not enlighten me about eating habits of the classes beneath the nobles.

The poor scratched the land to eat. The rich had that and more. Although

Hispanics of the Middle Ages are quick to note there were so many classes

that even slaves had classes of menus. A 5 star slave received a liver or

a kidney while a run of the mill slave probably received lamb fat as a

prize.

Drummond does not seem to get into guilds but aren't guilds a city sort of

thing? Where there guilds for construction workers? Although gremios

existed in Spain, I don't have as much information on them as I have on

guilds in London. - Food wise, I have menus for guild banquets in London

to which I seriously doubt that construction workers were invited. >>>

Skilled construction workers (as opposed to day laborers who provided muscle

as required) were of the artisan class and organized themselves and their

political power through the craft guilds. Most guilds were local to a city,

but connected to other guild houses of their craft in other cities.

Journeymen might serve masters in a number of guildhouses before find a

locale where they could settle and become masters. Masons were among the

most powerful of the guilds because they were skilled labor in short supply

often hired across national borders for major projects making them an

international force. Any guild might have a guild banquet, but it would

have been for masters and high value journeymen of the guild and likely

would serve as a forum for internal guild politics.

Consider also, that an engineer, such as Leonardo Da Vinci, would likely be

a member of the household of his patron during a project, while a master

craftsman and his assistants would likely be hired for the project, but not

be part of the household.

There are differences in the relative power and position of guilds in

different countries.

<<< In Spain, there is very little documented information on what classes

beneath nobility ate. There are a few references to slaves' food in areas

of Hispano-Arab domination but menu's of the poor are slim - as Drummond

points out pottage's and legumes were the poor man's food, Let's face it,

the medieval peasant did not need a recipe for a lard and black bread

sandwich and the noble would not want that recorded in his dairies! >>>

Household accounts have references to the wages paid to workers external to

but working for the household. In Northern Europe under the manorial

system, slaves, serfs and external labor would likely be found in the manor

accounts. I am uncertain of how accounts were structured in Southern

Europe, but I suspect that Spanish accounts, guild structures and power, and

the like may differ from much of the rest of Europe due to the conflicts

between the Spanish and Arab cultures.

<<< To conclude: if we are talking "diets of construction workers in the

Middle Ages/Renaissance" - I would take a gander at Charles Clyde Ebbets'

photograph of "Lunchtime atop of a Skyscraper," and carry on from there.

Suey >>>

Perhaps, but I think the diet of construction workers in the Middle

Ages/Renaissance might have more in common with a ploughman's lunch than

what is in the lunch pail of a modern steel rigger.

Bear