coins-msg - 1/10/08 Period coins, making coins. Sources for info and coin metals. NOTE: See also the files: measures-msg, measures-art, p-Engsh-coins-lst, p-prices-msg, casting-msg, metals-msg, metal-sources-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Someone asked about period money. Insofar as there is a single coin on which medieval European monetary systems are based, it is the silver penny. The rough equivalent in the Islamic world is the dirhem. The silver penny was originally 1/240th of a roman pound of silver--between one and two grams. The dirhem is a bit over three grams. Both were also used as units of weight. I can suggest two approaches to the problem of money in the SCA. The ambitious one, which I hope someone will someday do, would be to mint and put into circulation a real silver coinage, based on dirhems or pennies at their historical weight. At present prices I think a dirhem would have about fifty cents worth of silver in it, a silver penny about twenty-five cents. You would monetize the coin at about twice that--treat a dirhem as a dollar or a penny as fifty cents. That way the value as money is enough above the bullion value so no likely fluctuation in the price of silver will make the coins worth melting down (although, judging by recent history, that may be optimistic--maybe you should play safe by making the penny a dollar, which is also tidier). You get them to circulate at the nominal value by offering to sell or buy them at that value, so if a merchant accepts your pennies, he knows he can bring them back to you to be traded back into dollars. This technique for keeping a token coin (face value higher than intrinsic value) in circulation is, I believe, slightly out of period--perhaps seventeen century. If one could do it and make it work, it would make events feel noticably more real--many people buying and selling with period money. A much simpler approach, which I use and which seemed to be implied by the posting asking about this, is to use dollars as units of exchange but period money as units of account. I routinely quote prices in dirhem and accept payment in dollars at one for one. If people do not understand what a dirhem is I look puzzled, explain that it is the common money of the civilized world, and if necessary pull a real dirhem out of my purse to show them. Somewhere in the process I manage to convey the fact that I have found the green banker's notes used hereabouts will buy me a dirhem weight in silver, and therefore accept them. Given the opportunity, I can also slide into the story of how the dirhem and dinar first came to be minted. The use of units of account different from units of exchange, incidentally, is a period practice. Accounts were kept in pounds for some centuries before pounds existed. Originally, a pound meant a pound of silver pennies (240). As the penny was debased, royal treasurers and the like could have kept that meaning, and successively learned to multiply and divide by 245, 262, 270 ... . Instead they used "pound" to mean "the number of silver pennies that used to weight a pound--240." Similarly, in Italy later on, there were a number of coins that existed in two forms with different values. A real florin was a gold coin, a florin of account was a particular number of silver coins that had been worth that gold coin at some point in the past. Anyone interested in these subjects, by the way, may want to look at a fascinating little book by Carlo Cipolla called "Money, Prices and Civilization in the Mediterranean World." David Friedman (Cariadoc) Date: 24 May 90 16:34:20 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Silver coinage: The US governemnt reserves for itself the right to mint money, that is to say, "legal tneder for all debts public and private". Anybody can mint up a coin and anybody can accept it as payment, but they cannot be forced to accept it. One cannot use privately minted coins to pay one's taxes, for example. Likewise many merchants may not accept the coins, preferring something backed with a little more authority and greater circulation. Various poeople in the United States have pritned a circulated money backed by various valuable items. One fellow circluated coins backed by beer. In his town they were actually pretty widely accepted among merchants (but not government agencies) because he had a repuation for rock solid integrity. Likewise, employers may not force their employees to accept non-US moneys as wages. In the 19th century this was a common abuse of the working class: they would be paid in "coupons" which were only good at the company store, at company prices. Unions reformed this habit. I think the dangers of trying to circulate a "real" currency for SCA use would prove more than a bunch of amateurs could handle. SCA is not a wealthy organization, we don't have the wherewithall to back a currency and keep its price stable. I think we would have people discounting and inflating the price in response to rumours, and that it would be impossible to to protect the currency against speculation and manipulation. Governments of nations have serious problems with maintaining their currency, I think this would be a bad thing for us to try. And since we're talking about "MONEY" suddenly its a serious matter. Do you really want to risk losing your funds? People get very protective of their cash, and get very irate at people they think are endangering their money. SCA doesn't need this opportunity for bad feelings. On the other hand, I have seen limited edition tokens used in various interesting ways. At an event everybody arriving was issued a small number of tokens which they then used to gamble at various period games. At the end of games an auction of donated items was held, and the tokens were the cash used to purchase them. As I recall their was also a small flea market of things people wanted to get rid of.In addition to the tokens people started out with, they could also purchase additonal tokens. (This was a fund raising event.) I see know problem with games of this sort, or tot he various other alternate currency schemes I have heard of that were just in jest. (In one barony, chocolate chip cookies are legal tender for paying the baronial tax.) But I really think we should avoid any serious attempt to make a real coinage. Their are other period uses for non legal tender coins. For example, dower coins were sometiems struck to by monastic orders and given to members of the family of the postulant as a keepsake of the event, and various other commemerative coins were struck. Instead of giving out ribbons or other paper "tickets" a group could strike a commemerative coin that was proof of admission to an event. The site fee would have to cover the cost of making the coin. And perhaps, as a fund raiser, a group might strike and sell commemerative coins. If the coin were to include the term,"SCA, Inc," that would be more than adequate protection for ignorant purchasers of coins. On the other hand, if you don't know what you're buying, you shouldn't buy coins. So it really doesn't matter what's on the coins Minting commerative coins of this sort might prove to be a valuable source of funds. I think it would be worth a try. But please, don't try to make them legal tender. Yours in service, Awilda Halfdan bright hills, atlantia sgj%ctj.uucp at w3ffv.ampr.org From: Alfgar.Maharg at f666.n107.z1.fidonet.org (Alfgar the Sententious) The complaint about "tygers" drove me to whip out my COIN DICTIONARY AND GUIDE. "Crowns" were named because they had crowns on them. ("The _ecu a la couronne_ .... has a large crown added over the shield.") "Florins" had a fleur-de-lis on them. "Scudi" had shields. Someone mentioned "Kreutzer"-- they bore crosses. We also find the "lions" and "half-lions" of Robert III, the "leopards" and "helms" of Edward III, the "unicorns" of James III, the "rose nobles" of Edward IV... If the King of the East struck coins, they would certainly bear a tyger. Nuf ced. Also, the "ducat" was named from an inscription referring to "iste ducatus" (this duchy), and the dollar itself is a corruption of "taler", which comes from "Joachimstaler", because they came from the silver mines in St. Joachim's Valley. In short, POPULAR names for coins come and came in the Middle Ages from just about anything. * Origin: BaphoNet (1:107/666) From: jmike at asylum.SF.CA.US (J. Michael Hammond) Date: 3 Jul 90 03:56:33 GMT Organization: The Asylum; Belmont, CA Greetings all! For a while now there has been active discussion among several gentles regarding the establishment of a period style currency, to be backed by United States currency, for the use of the SCA. We have collected a fair amount of information on suppliers, logistics, and legal constraints, and have reached a point where we intend to open directed discussion with merchants, officials, lawyers, and investors. Our discussion is carried out on the mailing list coinage at asylum.sf.ca.us. Any interested gentle who wants to participate in the discussion, now that decisions are going to be made, is encouraged to join the group. Send your message to me and I will add you to the list. I also have a compilation of the previous discussion, so you need not feel that you'd be behind the times in joining. I remain, as ever, Damiano della Greccia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- J. Michael Hammond 2610 Monserat Ave. Belmont, CA 94002 (415) 594-9268 jmike at asylum.sf.ca.us ...{decwrl or bionet}!asylum!jmike From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David") Date: 9 Apr 91 20:37:00 GMT Date: 09-Apr-1991 04:07pm GMT From: Schroeder, P. David PSCHROED Dept: Tel No: (201)-408-8119 Subject: SCA Coins in A.S. XXII Good gentles, All this talk of "home-made" coins in the Society brings back fond memories of one of my first events, an Eastern Twelfth Night in Myrqwood in the then principality of Atlantia (mundanely Baltimore, Maryland). I checked my "treasure chest" and discovered I still had the two coins I bought back then. Both appear to be pewter and have a massive feel. The smaller is the diameter of a quarter with a raised unicorn and the markings XXV below it. The reverse is blank. The larger is octagonal, about the size of a half dollar, has a crown of five points with pearls and a capital "C" between two horizontal lines. On the reverse is a castle with three towers. Since Myrqwuud (they could have the name so long as it was never spelled "Mirkwood" a la Tolkien, and therefore tended to creative spellings) was and is the heart of our fellow medievalists, Markland, perhaps these are "crossover" coins. On a related note, my lady and I were merchants at Pennsic for a number of years, back when there were less than 2,000 of us there. For two of those years we brought $100 in Susie-B's to use for change. That was back when the government was actually trying to *encourage* their use and public awareness of the coin was higher. Everyone seemed to appreciate getting back "silver" and a number of other merchants also adopted the practice. My memories of reading about medieval and renaissance faires says that the use of checks is VERY period - letters of credit were a standard form of exchange. Credit cards are really not that far a stretch. If some student of the field can add a post on such traditions, it would be appreciated. Also - how early is paper money? Thanks also to the good folk of An Tir for the info on my earlier post. Yours - Bertram of Bearington PSCHROED at drew.edu Re: Coining German Coins Date: 7 Feb 92 From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona Howdy, from Tom Peregrin. This one ain't gonna be in 15'C speak, because I have to discuss the US Secret Service, possible Mail Fraud, and US Federal Law. I am very glad to hear that you don't want to make exact duplicates of Mediaeval German coins, for two reasons; 1) It is against Federal Law (US Congress, 1973) to make exact reproductions of coins without the word "COPY" in clearly legible letters. 2) It is a pain for Professional Numismatists. Some people have been trying to make exact reproductions. Imagine the multifold problems: 1) The coins is originally purchased as a reproduction, but the info gets lost. Maybe somebody gives it to their sweetheart, and doesn't stress the fact it is a reproduction. Or maybe they say; "It is valuable", meaning "It cost me $20, don't treat it like tin.", as opposed to "It is authentic and worth $500 or more". Anyway, Sweetheart thinks it is the real thing. They break up with the giver, and a few years down the line give it to Sweetheart #2, who eventually sells it to a naive collector for $300. The collector takes it into a knowledgeable coin dealer, who may or may not know it's a fake. Eventually, somebody get's stuck with a fake that they paid a lot of money for. Not nice. 2) Some one who is less ethical than above goes to the local stamp and coin fair, and sells the fake for $300 right off the bat, claiming it to be original. 3) A much longer range problem; metal objects can have a long life span. Let us say the coin is a good reproduction. The coin goes from shoebox to bank box, to sock, to coin shop, and finally passes as genuine in a 100 years or so. Nobody remembers that it came from the SCA, or that the SCA was minting coins way back then (easy to forget in 100 years). A museum eventually acquires it. A numismatist/historian decides to look at the effect of the inflation caused the the failure of the Herring industry in 1300. S/he tries to do this by looking at the weight of the silver coins from that era, and how many dies were used to strike them (Each die has a lifetime of about 7,000 - 20,000 coins, depending on factors). There are very complex formulae that can be used to estimate the number of coins minted based on numbers of coins found with dies and die linkages Anyway, these coins show up that skew the results. Perhaps the correct answer would be obvious, but for the fact that somebody in 2000 decided to strike a dozen new coins of slightly different weight and silver content. Poof, there goes a historical study. It's almost like going to a historical site and spreading fake artifacts around... Anyway, for these two reasons, and several others, minting exact duplicates is not only a bad idea, but it is against the law. It is hard to get the law to do anything about it, but it is possible. Mediaeval Miscillanea sells fake coins. I wrote to them expressing my concerrns but I didn't even get a reply. I then wrote to the American Numismatic Society and the American Association of Professional Numismatists, and they are urging me to press charges with the U.S. Secret Service ( counterfeiting and forgery of non-US monies and antiquities is in their baliwick). I have an appointment later this month to meet with an agent to discuss filing a deposition and complaint. (Hint, if anybody out there knows Mediaeval Miscillanea, tell them to answer my letter soon. I'd rather not get involved in being a witness for Secret Service and Mail Fraud charges...) From: kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SUBJECT- Frankish Coins Date: 23 Mar 93 21:14:32 GMT Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Greetings to the Rialto from Dafydd ap Gwystl! In the hope of shedding some light on the coinage debate: L.s.d in english coinage (up until recently) were the abbreviations for the latin of pounds, shillings, and pennies. Solidus == shilling; denarus == penny. This coinage system goes back to Charlemagne, and is by far the most common coinage system throughout the middle ages in western europe, although in various permutations. HOWEVER: this doesn't mean that there was necessarily a shilling coin, or (even more so) a pound coin, at any given place or time in the middle ages. Until the dawn of the renaissance (phrase deliberately used to avoid being pinned down about dates--I haven't got my books with me, so I can't be exact) there was generally no shilling coin in England, and there was no gold coinage at all. The only coin was the silver penny. The penny was nearly pure silver (90% or more, although this varied slightly) and weighed (generalization alert) between .9 and 1.5 grams. The shilling (12 pennies) and the pound (20 shillings; 240 pennies) were units of account--they did not represent a coin. So from charlemagne until late (maybe 15th c?) there was no shilling coin in England, and the question >.. what a medieval shilling weighed ... is meaningless. The mention of gold coins is a separate (complex) issue. In 14th century Italy gold coins were often a status symbol for their state of issue, and (if I remember correctly) the maintenance of a bimetallic currency caused major economic problems as the relative values of gold and silver fluctuated. I apologise for the lack of attribution for all claims made in this post; I'll attempt to look this stuff up again so I can give sources. Of course, this has little to do with the original question which started this thread, which had to do with the dimensions of Frankish coins used for a recipe. If the poster who started this thread will give the date of the recipe (and by implication the date of the coins used to measure), and the dimensions desired (weight? diameter?), I'll attempt to look it up in my coin books, or consult with someone with a better library. The date is important--coin sizes varied throughout the middle ages. If my memory doesn't fail me, there were little squat sceatta and larger thin sceatta at the same time in Northumbria (Hossein?). Dafydd ap Gwystl David Kuijt Barony of Storvik kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu Kingdom of Atlantia (MD,DC,VA,NC,SC) From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: A New Society... Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 20:54:01 DZ> Are dollars really not period? I know that the Germans were making DZ> thallers in the 16th century, and I think the English called them DZ> dollars almost from the start. The name come from the silver mine of Joachimsthal in Bohemia, which (if memory servies) was opened in 1520 or thereabouts; the coins from that mine were called "Joachimsthalers" or "thalers" for short; the English got it through the Dutch form "daler". ("Dollar" is also British slang for what used to be called the 'crown', of five shillings value). "Dollar" was sufficiently well known in late period for it to be used used by Shakespeare in *MacBeth*, Act I, scene ii, line 63. * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229) From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA A.S. 100 Date: 25 Aug 1994 20:03:24 GMT Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. re: SCA Currency It has been tried, at least on a small scale. I was at Medieval week in Visby two summers ago, and at the SCA camp a tavern was set up, where you exchanged Swedish currency for Nordmarks, and then purchased beer with the Nordmarks. The coins appeared to have been minted by period means, and came in several denominations. A nice touch (although I didn't think so at the time) was that the various denominations did not appear to be evenly divisible, although that may have been my failure to understand the explanation. Apparently, the whole currency was based on the price of silver ie. the worth of the small silver coin was equivalent to the worth of the silver it contained. A similar experiment was tried here in Ealdormere. A gentle who shall remain anonymous (since I'm not sure this was all legal) set themselves up as the banker, and minted silver coins which were sold for something like $5 each, with the stipulation that they could be exchanged back for Canadian currency at any time. The idea was that since they were guaranteed by the banker, people could use them to exchange for goods and services between themselves. I'm not sure what ever happened with it, but I don't think it caught on. I don't think the government would take too kindly to this sort of thing on a large scale. They generally don't like other people working their side of the street. Too bad. It could be fun. Trouble is, most people would want there to be a central bank where the 'real' money is stored, where they know they can get their 'real' money back if they need it. So who gets to hold the purse strings? Cheers, Balderik From: direwolf25 at aol.com (Sean mac Aodha ui Conghailie) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA A.S. 100 Date: 26 Aug 1994 15:52:39 GMT Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley CA (Rick Cavasin) wrote: > re: SCA Currency > > It has been tried, at least on a small scale. I was at Medieval week in > Visby two summers ago, and at the SCA camp a tavern was set up, > where you exchanged Swedish currency for Nordmarks, and then > purchased beer with the Nordmarks. The coins appeared to have > been minted by period means, and came in several denominations. > A nice touch (although I didn't think so at the time) was that > the various denominations did not appear to be evenly divisible, > although that may have been my failure to understand the explanation. > Apparently, the whole currency > was based on the price of silver ie. the worth of the small silver > coin was equivalent to the worth of the silver it contained. > > A similar experiment was tried here > in Ealdormere. A gentle who shall remain anonymous > (since I'm not sure this was all legal) > set themselves up as the banker, and minted silver > coins which were sold for something like $5 each, with the stipulation > that they could be exchanged back for Canadian currency at any time. > The idea was that since they were guaranteed by the banker, people could > use them to exchange for goods and services between themselves. > I'm not sure what ever happened with it, but I don't think it caught on. > > I don't think the government would take too kindly to this sort of thing > on a large scale. They generally don't like other people working their > side of the street. Too bad. It could be fun. Trouble is, most people > would want there to be a central bank where the 'real' money is stored, > where they know they can get their 'real' money back if they need it. > So who gets to hold the purse strings? > > Cheers, Balderik I know that the head of the Coiners' Guild in An Tir is doing this. (Or, at least, he was at the Ducal War two weeks ago) He's minting silver coins, selling them for $4 and redeeming them for the merchants. No fee, just 'cause he wants to get SCA coinage in circulation. My knight is going to be talking to the West Kingdom Coiners' Guild about something similar. -Sean mac Aodha ui Conghailie From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Date: 26 Aug 1994 18:53:54 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, Metal was hammered into sheets, cut into disks and then formed into coins by being squished between two dies for about a 1000 years (500 to 1500). Before then folk used roman coins. For a limited period roman coins were melted down, debased and cast into replicas. In the closing years of what we call period, the Germans developed Taschenwerk which were rolling mills that imprinted the coin designs on a strip of metal which was then cut into individual coins. I think that the romans used cast coin blanks but I am not certain of that. The chinese have a long tradition of cast bronze coin. In late period the screw press was developed which allowed larger coins to be minted. Prior to that the groat was the largest coin that could be struck. A groat is roughly quarter sized and thinner than a nickel (apologies to folk outside north america). A hammer strike can only move a limited amount of metal. The screw press could be built to generate far more pressure and thus permitted larger coins and deeper impressions in the dies. This also lead to thicker coins, milling and edge inscriptions. Fiacha Moneyer (AnTir Moneyers Guild) AnTir haslock at zso.dec.com From: Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Date: Sat, 27 Aug 94 00:25:23 -0500 Greetings all; In reply to someone who asked about coin minting, some of the litterature (oops...gotta love delphi's editor...) I've read is of the opinion that many midieval coin blanks were *poured*. I know this sounds odd, but let me see if I can reconstruct the argument from memory. (I'm moving *again!* next week. Books=boxes) Many midieval coins have a distinctive rounded rim, much like what you would get by taking a clay marble and squishing it flat between two boards. Fine, that is abviously an artifact of the minting process, right? Wrong. The dies were never centered that exactly, and besides, they would have left distinctive tool marks on the edges of the blanks. Tool marks which aren't there. The person I was reading, (an article from the BM if memory serves.) was of the opinion that the only way to generate this odd edge profile was to take a ladle of molten metal and pour out coin blanks individually onto a cold iron sheet, thus giving a series of "cookies", that, oddly enough really *did* look like midieval coin blanks. he reported that in physical trials of this theory he could achieve, with practice, a fairly consistant weight per blank. Sometime when I settle down, I'll see if I can't find the xeroxes of that article. regards--> Alberic, who's beginning to feel a little like the Flying Dutchman... (for those who favour the cutting theory on coin production... jeweler's saws aren't period, and shears really don't work that well on things like that; leaving chisels...) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: nostrand at bayes.math.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand) Subject: Re: Minting coins Organization: York University Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 02:37:47 GMT Noble Cousins! In AS XII or thereabouts, the East Kingdom had Silver Tygers floating around. The things were the proverbial medieval silver penny. A bit underweight, but if they weighed a bit more I think that they would be very acceptable dollar coins and not novelties. Basically, to be successful the things should have at least $0.85 worth of sterling in them. I think that the whole idea has a lot of merit. Currently, Drachenwald routinely uses site money to obviate currency conversion problems at merchant tables. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Totally Ignorant From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Stamping Dies Date: 1 Sep 1994 10:19:45 -0400 I not only found, but remembered to post this! CUSTOM DIE CUTTING Lady Ragnhild Attlidottir, Monier mka: Claire Rutiser 1952 Highland Drive State College, PA 16803 Peter G. Rose, University of Rhode Island | Azelin, of Wishford Hall PO Box 3072, Kingston RI 02881 USA | Trollhaven, Bridge, EK (401) 792-2301 | WISH at URIACC.URI.EDU From: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) Date: 31 Aug 94 18:59:14 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Organization: Fidonet: In the distance...Vanishing Point re: coin dies Okay, how technical do you want it? Today, the coin die is a three piece that uses a pre-sized sheet blank and is struck hydraulicly in a press. The Romans probably poured their blanks and hardy struck them warm to get a deep impression, which would also explain the cast look of the edge. To hand strike, you'll need a pair of dies and some mechanism to hold them in alignment during the impact, and the biggest sledge you can comfortably wield. ONE stroke, both faces, cut off excess to size, "token". Repeat thousands of times. to make dies yourself..,. start with a high carbon tooling steel like O1 or 52100 bearing or 6160 axleshaft (there it is, already round for medium sized coins). Fire up the forge and heat this to a bright orange and allow to cool slowly (more than five minutes) to anneal (soften) for engraving. slice square and polish to a high mirror (this is the master, EVERY flaw will be faithfully repeated in the finished work, take the time here) then lay out and carve the desired image IN REVERSE on the polished surface. When you're satisfied that it's perfekt, fire up the forge again and gently heat the die to a salmon pink and quench in mineral oil (veterinary supply). After it cools to room temp, bake in the oven at 400 degrees for at least an hour and allow to cool in still air. for 6160, this leaves the part at a Rockwell 58 to 60 and should give at least 2000 good impressions in copper based alloys. Have fun... let me know how it turns out. If I were doing it, i'd get out the dremel and the diamond dentist burrs and the big magnifying glass for the engraving. --------- Fidonet: Charly The Bastard 1:147/1077 Internet: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Date: 2 Sep 1994 18:42:06 GMT Organization: AI in Chem Lab Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote: > re: coin dies > > Okay, how technical do you want it? Today, the coin die is a three piece > that uses a pre-sized sheet blank and is struck hydraulicly in a press. The > Romans probably poured their blanks and hardy struck them warm to get a deep > impression, which would also explain the cast look of the edge. Errr, if I may be so bold... The term "the Romans" as used in coinage covers several different times and locations; the Greek colony of Rome, the republic, the empire, the eastern colonies, the western colonies, and Egypt. Minting practices were differnet in all of these times and places. The earliest Roman coinage was the Uncia and Libra, which were huge coins cast in Bronze and Silver. They were not struck at all. These cumbersome denominations quickly changed to the silver Denarius, which was nearly equal in weight to the Attic Drachm. Very early republican Denarii may come from cast flans, but mid to late Denarii were cut from sheet. This is especially true of the serrati, which had deeply (1 - 2 mm) cut serrated edges to show that the core of the coin was not copper with a silver foil wrap (a so-called Foirre). There is strong evidence that the planchets for Eastern bronze and brass Roman Empirial coinages (Sesterius, Dupondius, and Quadrans) and some of the approved localized currency (Ephesian Cistophorii, Macedonian tetradrachms, etc..) were all cast. However, from 200 CD onwards Sestertii often show square sides with just a hint of rounding. During the reign of Philip I the coinage became so square that people started derisevly calling them "quadrans" (the term used to refer to the 1/4 dupondius coin, and so calling a sestertius a quadrans was a symbol of the peoples disgust at inflation... sort of like calling a dollar a "quarter"). In the 4'th C the new Antonininii were probably cut. Roman Egypt was always a special case... being an Emperial colony, the property of the Emporer himself, the coinage was not allowed to circulate freely in or out of Egypt. All traders had to exchange the money at the harbor/border at the government rates. The Ptolemaic coinage was continued in that the Romans utilized Emperial tetradrachms as the primary coinage. These were made of Billon (a silver/copper alloy), which went from more than 25% during the reign of Augustus to 2% or less during the time of Probus. It seems that the early planchets were cast or poured onto a cold plate, but the structure of the edges of the later billon coinage seems to indicate that the panchets may have been made by sintering small globules of metal. The question of hot or cold striking is still open to debate. This is all from memeory. If anybody is really interested in more details I can dig out my notes from the Symposium in Honor of Metcalf which focused on Minting Techniques and Metalurgical Analysis, and dig through my library. Tom Perigrinus (who in mundane life is FRNS, Fellow of the Royal Society of Numismatics, and has a readers ticket at the Ashmolean Coin Department) From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Date: 2 Sep 1994 19:16:04 GMT Organization: AI in Chem Lab Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote: > to make dies yourself..,. Let me make a request and also give some information to all of you who are planning to make dies and strike your own coins... The coins you make have the potential to last for hundreds or THOUSANDS of years. If you try to make exact reproductions of authentic coins, you will be doing a strong disservice to numismatists and collectors. YOU might know it is modern, the person you give/sell it to might know that, but it is very possible that 10 years or more from now the coin might be accidentally or purposefully passed off as being "genuine". Let us think about that... first of all, let us say the coin is a good imitation, but wouldn't fool an expert. Let us say you made a copy of a penny of Aethelred II. Currently a type IIa Aethelred, in EF-, sells for about 400 pounds. Let us say the unscrupulous or unwitting person sells it to an enthusiast for half that price, $350 (roughly). When that person tries to sell it to an expert, or has it appraised, they are going to be vastly disappointed to find their coin was made decade or so ago rather than a millenium ago, and is "worth" the weight of silver or a little more... It would be improper for them to sell it for $350, wouldn't it? Perhaps worse is if the coin is so good that it can pass examination by an expert. This isn't easy, but even the BM has been fooled. For example, the Hazelmere hoard of Celtic Staters passed through the hands of major museums for years before a painstaking microscopic and metalurical analysis by Frank van Arsdell showed that the coins were modern. In that case you are muddying the very historical record we are all so interested in. If the coin is accidentally included in a museum collection, and the coin is used to estimate die linkages and currency output of a mint, then the estimate of economic indicators based on those estimations can be thrown off by quite a lot. This harms the ability of future numismatists and monetary economists to perform historical research. I actually have some pesonal experience with this... about 15 years ago I minted a set of coins to be "business cards" and "favored tokens" for a professional numismatist. They were loosely based on Greek designs, and had a "Greek-ized" version of his name on the reverse. UNFORTUNATELY, I didn't realize that the version of his name I used could be mistaken for another Greek word (I'm sorry, I forget which). Imagine my amazment, distress, and amusment when I saw a report in Pacific Classical Numismatic Society Journal, number 4, p 25, 1991 with a photograph of one of these coins and an interpretation of the coin as being "emergency coinage" of a perviously unrecorded city... somehow the author even determined that the coin was minted in year 13 of an unrecorded ruler (Greek coins are generally dated by letters giving the regnal year). Fortunately, the report was not taken seriously. Finally, everyone should know that the federal Numismatic Protection act of 1970 states that any object that resembles any antique or historical coin, token, or monetary implement of the past, must bear the words "COPY" or "REPRO" on once face in letters of such size as to be easily and quickly visable to the naked eye. And before anyone bothers to try to turn me in because of the previous paragraph, let me state that I have already been in contact with the US Secret Service, who is charged with enforcement of this act. Fortunately (I didn't know of the act at the time I did my work) I didn't COPY any coin. Since I made the coins in the style of, but not as a copy of, Greek coins, I didn't fall afoul of the act. If anyone desires to make their own "mediaeval coinage", let me urge them to make them in the style of existing coins, but not as direct copies. Tom Perigrin From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minting Coins Date: 8 Sep 1994 19:29:54 GMT Organization: AI in Chem Lab Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote: > Jeez Tom, give us a break! I just told 'em how to make a die set, not how to > overthrow the government through counterfeiting! any competent machine shop > can make dies, and I doubt that degrading the historical value of existing > artifacts was in their minds when they asked for directions. In my twenty > odd years, I've managed to collect a sizeable little pile of SCA-struck > "Tokens" from various kings and kingdoms, and they don't bear ANY resemblence > to ancient artifact or modern currency. I see these tokens as valuable bits > of our history, not the world's. Well, perhaps I wasn't clear enough... I wasn't saying that _YOU_ had done anything wrong, or that anyone else was doing anything wrong (although it IS being done, see below). I was trying to provide "pre-emptive" information. We have some pretty talented and clever people in the SCA... although their fist attempts might not look authentic, I wouldn't be surprised if their 20'th or 30'th attempts start to look pretty darned good. I just wanted them to think about these things BEFORE they got that good. I doubt many of us would question the wisdom of refraining from re-enacting period battles on original archeological sites, especially if we intended to leave good period reporductions at the site... But this is what we are accidentally doing with coinage... By the very nature of coinage and it's value, a lot of study material shows up with poor or non-existing provenance. A farmer digs up a pot of Celtic coinage... is he going to turn it over to the BM and get a note of thanks, or is he going to quietly sell it on the market for a few years wages? Thus numismatists often have to work with material that has no excavation notes... One cannot always tell the authenticity of a coin by the layer in which it is found. Let's not make the serious scholar's job worse by accidentally seeding their "battle fields" wth spurious material that is hard to distinguish. Now, above I mentioned that exact copies are already being made... I was dismayed when I visited the visitors center at Jorvik (viking time York), and saw that they had sunk an EXACT duplicate of viking age coinage. These dies were cut while examining original coins, and the die sinkers purpose was to make EXACT duplicates. They were striking pewter coins, so the chance of confusing one of these coins with a period silver coin was minimal. But minimal also describes their security on the dies... They had a person striking the coins sitting 10' from the door. Often he would turn away to look at something else, or even go to the bathroom, leaving the dies accesable to ne'er-do-wells. If a malefactor absconded with the dies, we would soon have excellent copies floating around with no distinquishing marks. When I communicated my worries to them via letter, the die sinker commented that his intention was to make exact duplicates, and he refused to even consider adding a symbol that never appeared on the original coinage (like a small anchor, fish, monogram, etc...) This fear was exacerbated by a report at the 10'th international numismatic confernce in London. A group from Paris reported that they had been experimenting with the question of hot versus cold striking in Aegian coinage by making exact duplicates and striking the coins at various temps. The bad thing is that the dies have been stolen! So although the museum staff didn't have bad intentions, we can only wonder at the intentions of a person who has already broken the law once to steal the dies... From: CAR at ECL.PSU.EDU (Claire A Rutiser) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: coin minting and counterfeiting Date: 9 Sep 1994 16:29:20 GMT Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab There has been some debate recently (see articles by Tom Peregrin and Charly the Bastard) on coin minting in the SCA, coin reproducing, and the legallity/ethics of the both. I believe there are 2 separate issues here, but since I engage in both making custom coin die cutting for SCA groups and making reproduction medieval coins, I will discuss/defend both. 1) Minting of SCA coinage Many groups in the SCA have dies with the group name, device, and possible the portrait of a king or queen on it. As an example, I cut dies for the Barony of Ponte Alto (Atlantia) at Pennsic. One side says "Ponte Alto" with a year, around a bridge. The reverse has the words "splendissime" around a cross design borrowed from an English coin. Several thousand of these are being minted in pewter or nickel silver for the Tournament of the Roses, September 24th. When I cut coin dies for SCA groups, they are, in general, in the style of medieval coins, but not close to any exact medieval coin. I would be very surprised if a coin struck from an SCA die that I had cut was mistaken for a real medieval coin. 2) Reproduction of Medieval coins The other thing I do with my die cutting hobby is to make reproductions of medieval and early Celtic coins. When I strike in silver, I stamp the word "COPY" into every coin, even the ones I keep for myself. The other SCA moniers I work with also do the same, every time. I got into this hobby because it allows me to have (and wear) examples of coins I may never be able to afford. Viking coins, especially, are very hard to find, though this is a popular persona in the SCA. I share some of Tom Peregrin's concern's, though, about reproducing coins. Becker, a famous 19th century european forger, cut hundreds of dies to Greek and Roman gold coins, and minted tens of thousands of these, which he sold. Most are still in circulation today, being sold as real coins. In some cases, he re-struck cheap old coins into more valuable coins. Clearly, coin collectors already have a lot to watch out for, and they don't want to buy a $1000 Greek gold coin only to find out years later that it is a recent copy worth only its precious metal content. When I strike coins in silver, I use modern sterling silver, which has a higher silver content than most medieval coins. X-ray fluorescence (XRF) a non-destructive method for determining metal composition (including trace elements) is frequently used to check rare coins (this is my understanding). Any coin struck from modern metal would stick out like a sore thumb with this test. The other test a repro. coin must pass to be sold as real is visual examination. The patina, the size and weight, and the die cutting have to _look_ real. I have lots of practice, but when I compare my cutting to a photo of a real coin, I can always see room for improvement. I have seen someone's repro viking coin made in Jorvik (Viking York) fairly recently. I believe that it was 50% larger than a real coin would be. As an aside, I think that lost wax or investment casting would be a much better technique for forging coins (to sell illegally) than striking them. If anyone has any questions or concerns about this, send me E-mail. - Ragnhild the Monier Claire Rutiser, CAR at ecl.psu.edu From: nusbache at rmc.ca (2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA coinage idea Date: 9 Sep 1994 17:27:15 GMT Organization: Royal Military College of Canada A few years back, I and a buddy turned our heads to developing a legal way to have coins with real intrinsic value that could circulate freely, but would not violate the Crown monopoly on minting legal tender coin. This was our solution: Mint coins. Run them through a numbering machine to stamp a serial number on each coin. Issue the coins _as bearer bonds_ with a face value of C$1 each. On being issued, each numbered bond would have to be registered to the purchaser, but they would not need to be tracked after that. The issuing firm (a corporation formed explicitly for the purpose of making the coins) would guarantee to buy the coins back at face value. Presto -- coins which can legally circulate with real value. Run it past a lawyer before trying it, though -- especially if you live in a country with tough securities laws. Aryk Nusbacher From: MPPHY at uriacc.uri.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: source for coin dies Date: 9 Sep 1994 10:42:45 -0400 The thread on minting coins finally gave me enough incentive to look throug h all of my Pennsic stuff for the business card of that stall on Bow Street tha t took orders for them.... Custom Die Cutting Lady Ragnhild Attlidottir, Monier mka: Claire Rutiser 1952 Highland Drive State College, PA 16803 The above is exactly what is on the business card I picked up. Sorry if i t's already been posted. Michael Perry | Kenric of Northampton, ===> actually spelled Chenric 8) (PPHY at uriacc.uri.edu | aka Mikhail Vyechoslavovich Godunov Physics Dept. | Trollhaven, Barony of the Bridge URI | East Kingdom From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (no) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Coin blanks Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 08:05:57 EDT Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op rmccown at world.std.com (Bob McCown) writes: > I'm attempting to make coins for an upcoming event, and need to find > aluminim, or other sfot metal, blanks for coins...anyone out there have > a supplier for these? Thanks in advance! > > Robur of Roestoc > rmccown at world.std.com > Armadillo (v.): To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle. Try Rio Grande Company, Albuquerque, NM. They are a national source for silver, nickel silver, gold, and other metals, and they have blank disks of many gauges and sizes. You might also buy a sheet and have a local die stamping company cut your blanks with their own circle dies. Megan == In 1994: Linda Anfuso non moritur cujus fama vivat In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Coin blanks From: david.razler at compudata.com (David Razler) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 94 00:27:00 -0500 Organization: -=- Compu-Data * Turnersville, NJ -=- BM>I'm attempting to make coins for an upcoming event, and need to find BM>aluminim, or other sfot metal, blanks for coins...anyone out there have BM>a supplier for these? Thanks in advance! Go to Boston's jewelery supply district and buy blanks of Britania metal ("pewter" without lead) It's cheap, generally available from stores that supply jewelers with findings etc. for the cost of the metal alone (trivial) precut into whatever size disks you need. If they don't have it there, reply and I'll call you with a list of folks in Philladelphia who have what you seak. (aluminum is harder to stamp, and especially make look like silver, which is currently cheap enough that you might even want to make GENUINE silver coins!) Aleksandr the Traveller [david.razler at compudata.com] From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: pound of gold, pound of feathers Date: 17 Oct 1994 14:10:00 -0400 Organization: the internet >Worth remembering next time someone asks which weighs more -- a pound >of gold or a pound of feathers... Actually, a pound is a pound is a pound. However...one pound of non-precious metal goods is 16 avoirdupois ounces (French for "goods of weight"). One pound of gold is divided into 12 troy (from Troyes) ounces, so the individual ounces weigh more. Thus, 1 ounce of gold is heavier than 1 ounce of feathers. Each ounce was subdivided into 20 smaller weights, whose names I will withhold pending a surprise. Notice the ratio: 1:12:20. The pre-decimal British currency was so divided: 1 pound = 12 shillings, and 1 shilling = 20 pence. Thus it should be no surprise that the smallest weight is a "pennyweight". Originally a pound of _silver_ (equal in value to an ounce of gold) was divided into 12 ounces (from the Latin _uncia_), and each ounce could be minted into 20 silver pennies. Depending on the time in England, pay on the order of shillings per year put you in the middle class. (An ounce of silver has a volume of about 2.5 cubic centimeters, or a coin about the size and thickness of a quarter, if you're wondering how big the coins were) William the Alchymist Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: pound of gold, pound of feathers Organization: University of Chicago Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 02:47:02 GMT "Despite the logic of 20 pennyweights to an ounce and 12 ounces to a pound, there were 12 pennies to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound. The point forgotten here is that the English shilling is a late or post period coin. The number of pennyweights to a pound, on the other hand, has been stable for 800 years or more." (Fiacha) The following is from memory; the source is a chapter of Carlo Cippola's excellent book _Money, Prices, and Civilization in the Mediterranean World_; I think the title was "Ghost Monies of the Middle Ages," or something similar. The Carolingian monetary reform, c. 800, set up a system based on the pound of silver, from which 240 pennies were minted. In order to fit the new system into the old system of Roman currency, in terms of which various existing contracts, rents, etc. were defined, 12 pennies were made equivalent to a Roman coin, (possibly the sestercius or the solidus?). At that point neither the shilling (12 pence) nor the pound existed (except as a unit of weight)--just the penny. The other two were units of account but not coins. A modern equivalent would be the tenth of a cent that we see in gasoline prices, but do not have a coin for. As the coinage got debased, it was easier to keep the definition of a pound as 240 pennies than to keep the definition of a pound as a pound of silver, since the latter would have meant a continually changing ratio of pound to penny. Similarly, the shilling continued to be defined as 12 pennies. Eventually shilling coins came to be minted in various countries (long before the end of our period, as I remember). Incidentally, the Italian lira is (etymologically) a pound. The French franc is (I think) a renamed livre tournois--also etymologically a pound. David/(Cariadoc) From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: HISTORY: Coinage Date: 21 Oct 1994 10:42:15 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway <mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)> >Thanks to Diamuit ui Dhuinn for his article on coinage. It was quite >informative. If you do plan to publish it, you might want to add >references to support your valuations. It was my original intent merely to supply a "rough relationship" chart, but it's a fair point to ask for references... :) Among the many references I used for this thing were: Casey, P. J. Understanding ancient coins, an introduction for archaeologists and historians. Norman, OK, University of Oklahoma Press, 1986. Cribb, Joe, Barrie Cook, Ian Carradice, John Flower. The coin atlas, the world of coinage from its origins to the present day. New York : Facts on File, c1990. Heckel, Waldemar and Sullivan, Richard. Ancient coins of the Graeco-Roman world, the Nickle numismatic papers. Waterloo, Ont., Canada : Published by Wilfrid Laurier University Press for the Calgary Institute for the Humanities, c1984. Hobson, Burton and Obojski, Robert. Illustrated encyclopedia of world coins. Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, [1970]. Junge, Ewald. World coin encyclopedia. New York : William Morrow and Company, 1984. Mattingly, Harold. Roman coins from the earliest times to the fall of the Western Empire. New York : Sanford J. Durst, Numismatic Publications, c1987. > 20 Pound Sovereign (cg); "Broad" ($500) >... >I assume the "$500" is intended to give value relative to modern American >currency? Then this tells us that Shakespeare's audience would think of >1000 ducats being equivalent to 1000 pounds of their money, which we can >value around $500,000. A pretty sum. More or less. This is based on the Rough estimates given in: Singman, Jeoffry L. The Elizabethan Handbook: A manual for living history, c.1588-1603. Ann Arbor? : n.p., 1993. >Hey, I was only off by a factor of 4! That's not too bad. If you start examining some of the prices for things at the time, you wind up with some very interesting estimates. For example, the value for a "Sword" (whether new or used) seems to be about 3-5 shillings which is something like $75-$150. Not bad. However, a price I found for Tobacco, in (as I recall) the 1570s placed it at about the equivalent of $75 an ounce (or roughly twenty times more than I pay currently). I'm not sure I love my pipe THAT much. NOTE that the "Valuations" ARE *rough* estimates over a period of time and should not be blindly used to compare across the different the different eras listed. While they are IN THEORY comparable, I wouldn't bet my life on it. Their primary purpose is to establish a relationship. A simple scholar, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: COINS Date: 15 May 1995 16:47:01 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Keywords: coins [Hal posting from Dorothy's account....] In article <3p6pee$nfe at candelo.dpie.gov.au>, Ruth <rlovisol at candelo.dpie.gov.au> wrote: >I am hoping to find someone who would correspond with me about coinmaking. > >I have heard rumour of a guild of coinmakers, but I dont mind who I talk to as long as they can help me figure out how to make some coins. > >Will engraving the tips of steel rods and then hardening the steel work? If you >could email me directly I would be grateful, as I don't get to read this group >often. While I will e-mail this data as well, I think that a public post will serve a useful purpose.... For information on coin making in the Society, contact: Keith Woods P.O. Box 3813 Chico, CA 95927 (916) 342-7831 As Titus of Wormwood, he's head of the West Kingdom Moneyers Guild. There are ramifications to making coins that may not be apparent on the surface. The Monyers Guild has done the needed research with the Treasury Dept. --Hal Ravn (Hal Heydt) From: tmcdanie at utic.unicomp.net (Timothy McDaniel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: MT: "Hammered and Milled Coins" Date: 2 Jun 1995 01:11:09 -0500 Organization: UniComp Technologies International Corp. An Internet Service Provider, 214-663-3155 FAX 214-663-3170 info at unicomp.net Forwarded with the kind permission of the American Numismatic Association, with their copyright intact: Transcript No. 692 May 30, 1995 HAMMERED AND MILLED COINS by Scott T. Rottinghaus Coins have been around for thousands of years. But until the sixteenth century, there was no machinery at all for making coins. Coin collectors make a distinction between hammered and milled coins. Milled coins are struck by machinery, like today's coins. But from the invention of coinage, about 27 hundred years ago, until relatively recently, coins were generally struck by hand, using a hammer. The process was fairly simple. Blanks, or unstruck coins, could be produced by pouring hot metal into molds, or they could simply be cut from large sheets of metal. The coiner would then place the blank between two dies and deliver a strong hammer blow to the top die, striking the coin. Hammered coins look different from the ones made today. They're not perfectly round, they're often struck off-center, and the design is commonly weak because of uneven or insufficient pressure during striking. Medieval hammered coins were very thin, and dishonest people could easily file or cut precious metal off the edges. This process, known as clipping, was a serious problem because it reduced the coin's value by reducing the amount of silver or gold it contained. The invention of coin presses solved these problems. During the seventeenth century, milled coins replaced hammered coins in most of Europe. Milled coins are perfectly round and well-struck, and their edges are marked to prevent clipping. Today's coin presses can produce hundreds of high-quality and uniform coins every minute . . . quite an amazing advance over the former method of striking each coin by hand. This has been "Money Talks." Today's program was written by Scott Rottinghaus and underwritten by COIN PRICES magazine, providing its readers with the latest values on U.S. coins. "Money Talks" is a copyrighted program of the American Numismatic Association, 818 N. Cascade Ave., Colorado Springs, CO 80903, (719)-632-2646, ana at csdco.com. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: hopkins at hopkins.rtp.dg.com (Edward Hopkins) Subject: Re: ANA MT: "Clipping" Date: Tue, 30 May 95 18:42:44 GMT Organization: Data General Corporation. RTP, NC. >With the kind permission of Mr. James Taylor, American Numismatic >Association Director of Education, I am cross-posting this copyrighted >article from rec.collecting.coins to rec.org.sca. I'll try to bring >the discussion over too. -- Daniel de Lincoln > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Transcript No. 688 > May 24, 1995 > CLIPPING (LONG CROSS PENNY) > by Matthew Rockman > > As long as governments have issued money--people have managed to >counterfeit, steal or find some way to misuse it. Medieval England certainly >wasn't immune to these problems, but the King of England found a rather clever >way to discourage at least one type of fraud. [some article-clipping here] > By the middle of the thirteenth century, the problem had reached >epic proportions. Looking for a remedy, King Henry III ordered a change in the >design of the coins. In 1247, new coins were issued showing a large cross with >arms extending to the edge of the coin. With the new coins came a royal edict: >if any part of the cross was absent from a coin, it would no longer be legal >tender. The problem was solved, and a minor change in design put thousands of >nefarious silver-savers out of business. Never again would clipping represent >a major threat to the integrity of British coins. If my memory serves me, there was an interesting side-effect to this edict: In order to pay for having all those new coins minted, the King levied a tax on windows, leading to a housing fad of bricked-up windows. Or did that happen later, when milled edges were introduced? -- Alfredo hopkins at dg-rtp.dg.com From: Dria Chamberlin <Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Money Dies Date: 17 Jun 1995 00:53:39 +0100 Organization: Myorganisation In article <3rs1ah$iov at news.iii.net> chris at ferguson.iii.net "Chris Lavallie" writes: > I am trying to find those members of the moneymaking guild who make the > dies for striking coins. They were at Pennsic two years ago but aren't > listed in the merchant section. My shire would like to obtain dies for > striking its own coins for events. Any info that any of you could provide > would be most appreciated. Thank you. > > Chris Lavallie With the caveat that I am not certain this is what you are looking for, particularly as my understanding is that in the Moneyers Guild of the West, you must make your own dies, I can offer the following information: Moneyer's Guild (West Kingdom) Titus of Wormwood (Keith Woods) PO Box 3813 Chico, CA 95927 (916) 342-7831 I do know that the coins they make are really impressive; several (obverse) dies have been made to the specification of the Crown and Coronet; the reverse being the (mon?) of the specific moneyer. Hope this helps. -- In Service to Courtesy, Honor and Chivalry, Talitha von Kopke From: saxon34 at aol.com (Saxon34) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Moneyers of the Knowne World Unite! Date: 21 Jun 1996 19:43:41 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Thanks to my time at 3YC my contacts have grown.Still,we are putting out the call for all Moneyers or would be Moneyers.Now is the time to send me an address and number. Also we are looking for someone to run our newsletter"The Pyx". It is time to get this Inter-Kingdom Moneyers Guild off and running smoothly.Anyone can make coins for both Populace and Royals,very few tools and effort is needed,(warning blantant advertising coming up),I have in hand a quick how to book that can get you up and running in one weekend.If you want to pay off those viking raiders or hire some tough fighters,do so with coins.For a copy of the "Moneyers Handbook",send $7.00 plus $3.00 P&H for a total of ten bucks to:James M.Coffman 2115A South Old Stage Rd.Mt.Shasta,CA.96067. If you know of other Moneyers in action tell them about us and we hope they will stay in touch.If you don't need a handbook but have been doing coining for a long time get in touch as well,we are building a large Guild Museum for the varied coins of the Known World so we need info and copies.The above handbook is 41 pages of simple how to stuff and is a modest effort.Still if you gotta start somewhere or are looking for something to do in the SCA it is here for you.(Booga,Booga/Moneyers talk for break a leg). Good Luck. Master Emmerich of Vakkerfjell,OL Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cheval at netcom.com (jay hoffman) Subject: Re: Old fashioned coins Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 22:09:12 GMT Derek McKay (dmckay at leon.atnf.CSIRO.AU) wrote: : I am after s