charcoal-msg - 0/6/14
Use and making of charcoal in period.
NOTE: See also the files: blacksmithing-msg, mining-msg, salt-msg, bladesmithing-msg, metals-msg, tools-msg, glasswork-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: william thomas powers <powers at cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: charcoal
To: markh at khyber (Mark Harris)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1993 13:27:58 -0500 (EST)
Some of the uses of charcoal that would not be thought of today are:
Polishing metals with powdered charcoal, (non-ferreous ones)
Polishing your teeth with powered charcoal
medicine for a "sour stomach", bad breath, gas
meat was packed in it
charcoal could be added to stale water to purify it
wrought iron can be made into blister steel by heating it in a closed
container full of charcoal, (red hot for a considerable time)
some of the chinese barrows had massive layers of charcoal to help
protect the inner tomb
BTW sifted wood ashes mixed with a little water and used on a wool cloth
pad makes a GREAT polishing compound for bone, Theophilus was right--
but he forgot to mention the water... The faster you can "buff" it the better.
"shoeshing it with a long narrow strip of wool works well.
Wilelm the smith
Barony of the Middle Marches
Middle Kingdom
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tip at ai.chem.ohiou.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Organization: Ohio University
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:42:08 GMT
royleblanc at aol.com (RoyLeBlanc) wrote:
> I am doing some research on colliers or charcoal makers. I've located a
> copy of Foxfire 5 and most of the descriptions are handed down, rather
> than first hand experience.
>
> I understand that charcoal burning is still practiced by the liquor
> industries and intend to check with a couple of distilleries.
I suspect that the distilleries may use retort charcoal, where the wood is
loaded into a large steel vessel which then heated. This gives the highest
quality of charcoal, at a higher cost.
What you want is mound charcoal, which is made by carefully stacking wood
in a specific pattern, overlaying it with dirt and sod, and then setting
fire to it, and finally blocking the ingress of air after a suitable period
of time.
> Does anyone know of other places, preferable in the Southern US where this
> may still be practiced.
I know charcoal burning in mounds is still practiced in Northern Mexico,
and in Japan. Amoung other things, the Japanese use charcoal in "Hanabi"
(Fireworks). Takeo Shimizu, one of Japans foremost fireworks experts, as
written a first hand description of the process in his book "Fireworks, the
Art, Science and Technique" (Pyrotechnia Press).
> -Roy LeBlanc
Tom
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Date: 9 Jan 1997 00:24:53 GMT
GMT, Irene Davis of idavis at ix.netcom.co says...
>(RoyLeBlanc) writes:
>>
>>I am doing some research on colliers or charcoal makers. I've located a
>>copy of Foxfire 5 and most of the descriptions are handed down, rather
>>than first hand experience.
Charcoal is made locally (in Brisbane) by a practising blacksmith, who uses
a large steel tank, but I do have reference material on old age processes.
Some useful books from my library.
These books contain many illustrations, including photographs of actual
practices, with often considerable detail on the actual processes. Many of
these are not only useful reference books but absolutely beautiful "coffe
table" books as well. Most probably out of print, but there are ways to
obtain them.
Simply browsing them can make you a "general expert"... ;-)
~~~~
The Forgotten Arts - John Seymour
Angus & Robertson 1984
ISBN 0 207 15007 9
Sections include Woodland, building, field, workshop, textiles, homecrafts
Charcoal burning p 36
Still practiced in Portugal at time of writing
Author also wrote
The complete book of self sufficency,
The self sufficient gardener
charcoal burning on p36
He also wrote Forgotten Household Crafts
smae pub -1897
ISBN 0 207 15608
sections include kitchen, diary, laundry, home (gathering and making fuels
- heating [charcoal]), textile, decorative,
~~~~~
Traditional crafts in Britan
A Readers Digest Publication (Bl**dy hell!!!)
1982 no ISBN available
2 sections
(1) Craftsmans' Art
over 200 pages of various crafts including Charcoal Burner p 46
detailed instructions on size of clamp (7 tons -> 1 ton charcoal, 7 dyas
work, clamp 15'x6' yields 2 sacks of charcoal netting 4 pounds at turn of
century - details on usage of coppiced oak, tanning, bobbin and cotton
reels and charcoaling, etc)
(2) Craftsmen at work
80 pages of british craft and folk museum addresses.... :-O
~~~~~
While on the subject of "field" crafts
Also worth a look
Traditional British Crafts
ISBN 0 86283 7537
p 235 contains a medieval manuscript illustration of a medieval smithy at
work, including the forge and anvil and bellows... :-)
Bodleian library, Oxford, MS Bodley 264 f.84 235
Courtesy of Serendpoity (fuuny what you find when looking for something
else)
Crafts of land, river, and sea
~~~~~
And don't forget the traditional dish of charcoal burners which has given
its name to a variety of pasta... :-)
Robin
--
pereant omnes ignavi seque stuprent
rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/
The Virtual Fooles Troupe: http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm
From: powers at colon.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Date: 9 Jan 1997 22:03:36 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
in haste;
"A Reverance for Wood" Eric Sloane, discusses american colonial charcoal
burning a bit.
"Wrought Iron and Its Decorative Use" Maxwell Ayrton and Arnold Silcock
mentions several references to medieval forges and rights of fueling in the
chapters: Introductory and 14th -16th centuries.
The Lindsay catalog has two books on making charcoal (Lindsay Publications Inc
PO Box 538, Bradley IL 60915-0538 phone 815-935-5353
Divers Arts and De Re Metallica frequently refer to charcoal
"Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" Frances & Joseph Gies mentions its use
and that of "sea-coal" as well
I've made the stuff back when I couldn't get good smithing coal....
wilelm the smith (BTW the Nature artical on the Sri Lankan monsoon driven
smelter mentions identifing species used for early period iron smelting
charcoal in that locality...
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Date: 10 Jan 1997 07:25:04 GMT
Jan 1997 00:37:22 -0600, Mark S. Harris of markh at risc.sps.mot.com says...
<SNIP>
>One book I thought had some info in it, but in skimming it I cannot
>find it is "Medieval Technology & Social Change" by Lynn White. There
>are other similar books detailing mechanical and technical changes
>and processes that you might want to look at, too.
I suggest, especially for a good historical grasp, not only of steel, but
of metals and technology, especially for SCA period and earlier, that you
seek out
Robert Raymond's
Out of the Fiery Furnace
The impact of Metals on the History of Mankind
(Pub) MacMillian Australia 1984
ISBN 0 333 38024 X.
It talks about the charcoal/coal situation, P16, and other references.
The theory for iron smelting is that the following path over history
occurred...
basket weaving -> pottery -> fired pottery -> copper ..... -> iron.. etc
Robin
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Date: 10 Jan 1997 07:29:03 GMT
Tom Perigrin of tip* at ai.chem.ohiou.edu says...
<SNIP>
>What you want is mound charcoal, which is made by carefully stacking wood
>in a specific pattern, overlaying it with dirt and sod, and then setting
>fire to it, and finally blocking the ingress of air after a suitable
period
>of time.
The whole point, is not that it burns as one may think of a normal fire,
but just basically smoulders, the heat and lack of oxygen driving
off all the orgainic products, reducing the material to just mostly carbon
(with some inorganic salts).
Robin
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tip* at ai.chem.ohiou.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Organization: Ohio University
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:55:02 GMT
rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) wrote:
> In article <tip*-080197134248 at shimizu.chem.ohiou.edu>, of Wed, 8 Jan 1997
> 18:42:08 GMT, Tom Perigrin of tip* at ai.chem.ohiou.edu says...
> <SNIP>
> >What you want is mound charcoal, which is made by carefully stacking wood
> >in a specific pattern, overlaying it with dirt and sod, and then setting
> >fire to it, and finally blocking the ingress of air after a suitable
> period
> >of time.
>
> The whole point, is not that it burns as one may think of a normal fire,
> but just basically smoulders, the heat and lack of oxygen driving
> off all the orgainic products, reducing the material to just mostly carbon
> (with some inorganic salts).
Right... but one has to first heat the wood to the point where the
charcoalization will continue in the absense of adequate oxygen. You
won't get charcoal if you stack wood in a mound, drop in a match and
immediately cut off the air. It has to heat up first. Thus, you begin by
allowing to burn normally for a while, and then you cut off the air.
According to Shimizu (ref in my last posting) the chemical analysis of
japanese paulownia charcoal is typically C21H4O.
However, it has also been shown that for making black powder (BP) the
charcoal MUST contain organic tars and oils. For example, BP made with
charcoal cooked at 650 F will burn at 1.2 sec/10 cm, whereas the otherwise
identically processed material made with charcoal cooked to 1200 F burns at
15 sec/10 cm. (K.Kosanke, W.W.B. Symposium, Lake Havasu Az, Feb 14-16
1996).
TIP
From: timbeck at ix.netcom.com(Tim Beck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal Burners
Date: 12 Jan 1997 21:14:48 GMT
RoyLeBlanc wrote:
> Regarding the 'in period' aspects. Would a domesday book be a good
> starting point for documenting the craft as a historical practice?
Check out *The Pirotechnia of Vannoccio Biringuccio* Dover (of course)
has a translated reprinted version that's cheap and provides 16th
century step by step of the age old process...It looks a lot the same
as the way charcoal burning is done in third-world countries today!
Good luck,
Timothy
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Charcoal Burning
Date: 20 Jan 1997 05:51:34 GMT
Serendipity found the following site describing a modern recreation of the
Clamp making process in England in 1992 at a Windermere living history
exhibit at Brockhole in Cumbria.
http://www.ftech.net/~regia/charcoal.htm
quote
Footnote: Anglo - Saxon word "col'' often taken to mean "coal'' (ie.
mineral coal) actually meant charcoal - cf. "The Wen charm'' - "scring pu
alswa col on hearde'' - "may you be consumed as charcoal on the fire''.
Mineral coal was called sea - coal, because it was found on beaches (washed
up from exposed seams). Only the monks at Margam actually dug for it, from
about 1054.
unquote
Robin
From: please.respond.to.the.group at nospam.org (Madog Hir ap Llew)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:05:14 GMT
On Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:53:41 -0700, "JoAnn Abbott"
<josco at theriver.com> wrote:
>I was wondering.......
>Why did people use charcoal instead of wood? Does it burn slower? Hotter?
>Less ash? And I am refering only to the type of wood made at the charcoal
>burners in the forests (an interesting process, btw, explained in one of the
>Brother Cadfael books). Not to the coal dug up in pits by my husbands
>ancestors.
>Anyone have a reason why they would want to burn charcoal rather than wood?
Charcoal burns quite a bit hotter than wood, and with less residue.
This was useful to smiths (because they needed the hotter temps,
especially for iron/steel) and cooks and bakers (because there was
less of a "smokey" smell to the food).
Madog Hir ap Llew
(The newbie SCAdian formerly known as "Ulrich the Ungainly")
From: james koch <alchem at en.com>
Organization: alchem inc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Charcoal
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:20:14 -0400
Charcoal can also be burned with a draft. When I first started
blacksmithing years ago I attempted to supplement my meager supply of
coal and coke with a pile of wood I happened to have on hand. I quickly
discovered that if you put wood in a forge and blow air through it you
will obtain a huge cloud of smoke. The wood will also begin to explode
since the water trapped inside rapidly turns to steam. Charcoal works
just fine in a forge or furnace. Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Charcoal
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:08:14 GMT
"JoAnn Abbott" <josco at theriver.com> wrote:
| Why did people use charcoal instead of wood? Does it burn slower? Hotter?
| Less ash? And I am refering only to the type of wood made at the charcoal
| burners in the forests (an interesting process, btw, explained in one of the
| Brother Cadfael books). Not to the coal dug up in pits by my husbands
| ancestors.
| Anyone have a reason why they would want to burn charcoal rather than wood?
|
| Lady JoAnna
| who just read a Swedish fairy tale about a charcoal burner and got to
| wondering....
Missing from the other replies (and information that might help explain things
if you don't have it):
Charcoal is near-pure carbon (the remainder being non-flamable
compounds) made by taking wood and heating it with either no or very little
oxygen present. (OK, you can make it from bones and just about anything else
that contains carbon and stuff that can be driven off by heat, but that
doesn't matter here)
Anyway, by driving out all the water and reducing some of the organic
compounds to carbon and stuff driven off mainly as water vapor, you end up
with a fuel containing much more energy per pound, burns with a flame of known
temperature (wood fires vary in temperature from spot to spot and moment to
moment) and burns cleaner (since, assuming a well-vented fire, almost all the
carbon is converted to carbon dioxide0
The cost is higher though, especially through the early 1900s, due to
the long, dangerous, labor-intensive process of converting wood to charcoal
(op.cit. Eric Sloane). The process has since been automated, but you still pay
for the energy needed to run charcoal-making kilns.
david/Aleksandr
David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:15:27 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen in a krak
Stefan wrote:
> My comment was simply to mention that to get coals, at some point, you
> have to have flames. That assuming you only had coals is not a complete
> solution.
You need flames, but...
Not necessarily in the same place.
A very common occupation throughout period and right up to the
beginning of the 20th century is Charcoaler.
This is a person who buys or gathers wood, and starts a very controlled
burn of it, usually while it is also buried to convert it to charcoal. the
charcoal is then sold as heating/cooking/industrial (the preferred fuel for
silver/goldsmithing was charcoal) fuel. It was clean burning and unlike
mined coal, imparted no sulphurous (connected with evil) odor to the
house.
The wood was often stacked in a very particular order, to allow just the
right amount of air to flow through as it burned, and then the stack was
lit in the center, and covered with earth a foot or more deep, with the
exception of a smoke smoke vent in the top.
In two or three days the fire burns itself out, and the Charcoal is
unearthed and brought to the manor, taken to market, and sold.
IIRC, one of the Brother Cadfael stories has a body that was found in
a Charcoal burning pile, when one of the brothers went to get charcoal
from a local charcoaler.
The use of charcoal for fuel would have eliminated all sparking,
popping and uncontrolled burning, and allowed a shorter chimney
stack, just as was posited earlier.
brandu
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:44:59 +0000
I get lump hardwood charcoal from the roofing supply company. It comes in
20 pound bags and the price I pay is $9.25 per bag.
Olwen
>Where do you get chunk charcoal?
>
>Liadan
> > BTW, I've found that for smoking meat, chunk charcoal (rather than
> > briquettes) gives a MUCH better flavor. It burns a bit hotter, so you don't
> > add as much to start, and you have to add chunks more often, but the
> > results are markedly superior.
> >
> > Sieggy
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:53:14 -0400
I generally find it at Wal-Mart, the brand is Real Flavor, and it's made
by the American Charcoal Co. My last bag was on sale, $5.87 for a 10 lb bag.
If you have access to lots of wood and want to do an interesting project,
making charcoal isn't that hard, just very time consuming. I wouldn't think
you'd want to make too much, but it would sure be an interesting art/sci
project or gift for your favorite blacksmith.
Here's a link that goes into more detail -
http://www.connerprairie.org/fuel.html
Sieggy
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:14:28 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
Gardens Illustrated for Feb. 2001 did a major
article on traditional charcoal burning. It
takes a special kiln and a forest of the right
sort of trees. But if you've got cooperative
neighbors, a couple hundred acres of woods to
deplete, and EPA permission to smoke up the air
you too can make charcoal. Large scale charcoal
production for smeltering helped to deplete the
hardwood forests of Michigan's UP faster than the
demand for lumber for housing back in the mid 19th
century.
Johnna Holloway
From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:59:01 +0100
Subject: [Sca-cooks] charcoal burn
We made charcoal at Fritton Lake (UK) this year.
dug a pit
put in wood
stack tightly with a air gap in center
light fire
cover with turf so there is only a little smoke escaping
leave for 24 hours or so
that should produce charcoal.
there is a special way of stacking which I will try to post when I get the
instructions for my charcoal making friends
vara
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:50:02 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Charcoal
The article that I made a reference to in
Gardens Illustrated, February 2001 entitled
"Burning Issue" describes the work of Chris
Jefferson who is attempting to create an
"English charcoal renaissance and change the
face of the Cumbrian woodland at the same time."
He is advocating a system whereby oak, ash, hazel or
hornbeam are cut down to a stump and then coppiced
to create seperate poles that can be harvested every
seven years. The article notes that the Dutton Furnace
burned the equivalent of 10 acres of woodland a week
at its peak from 1650-1750. Using his modern steel kiln,
Jefferson averages a sixth of a tonne of charcoal from
one tonne of wood.
There is a website given at www.englishcharcoal.co.uk
that people may want to check out.
Johnna Holloway
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:03:24 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Charcoal
Here's another charcoal site with pictures of what
the kiln looks like today... they aren't burning
scrapwood either.
http://www.coppice.leeds.co.uk/charcoal.htm
Johnna
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:42:09 -0600
From: Mary Denise Smith <costumemag at costumemag.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
I have to jump in here and call upon my years of experience in
18th/19thC historic interpretation, which included hearth cooking as
well as making sure that other cooks on site had adequate wood for their hearths.
"Scrap" wood from harvesting trees is almost a non-issue. It is used in
the hearth and/or stove. The really small stuff (pencil sized, say) and
the leaves and needles had their uses, but not in the fire place.
My recollection from the one time I had anything to do with a charcoal
burn was that the burn goes much better when the wood is of relatively
uniform size. This was a pretty large size, as I recall (sifting back 17
years), say at least 3" in diameter. Also, I seem to recall that
uniformity of wood type was important.
For definitive information, I refer you to Conner Prairie's web site http://www.connerprairie.org
Conner Prairie does a charcoal burn every Fall or so, and thus they have
current, practical, first hand experience with making charcoal in the
pre-industrial manner. If I were to want to do a charcoal burn, they
would be the folks I'd ask.
MD/Marged
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:42:58 +0200
From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
jenne at fiedlerfamily.net schrieb:
> > >Correct. But if I had the hardwood for this, even chunks, it would
> > >more likely end up in furniture or boxes or somesuch and not converted
> > >to charcoal. I can *buy* the hardwood charcoal for less than I can
> > >buy the hardwood.
> > Well, presumably charcoal would be made from scraps, either bits
> > left over from other projects, or even scrap trees that are too bent/to=
o
> > slashed/too lightning scarred to be used for furniture. . .
>
> Um, do you have any documentation for this assertion? Because there's
> nothing in any of the mentions I've seen about charcoal burning to
> indicate that scrap wood was used.
Well, we'd have to have a definition of 'scrap
wood' first. I know for a fact that in Early
Modern Germany, charcoal burning was carried on in
the forest fringes, so there would have been no
point in bringing scrap from city or village
workshops back out there. It also most likely
would have been the size to be more profitably
used in kitchen stoves or fireplaces. Modern
'museum' coalburners use wood in lengths of about
1 meter, though I don't think their techniques are
documented back much past the 17th century.
On the other hand, most Central European
coalburners operated on somebody's land, and
usually not their own (this may well have been
different for example in Russia or Colonial
America). The owner of the land would probably
have gone in for maximum profit, which, given the
prices paid for prime building timber in the 13th
century and later (I have no information about
earlier prices - anyone?) probably means big trees
are right out, too, even if they are crooked - no
problem for a good sawyer or carpenter, just
awkward for a mechanised sawmill. (There is even a
miracle story illustrating the dearth of prime
timber, about how churchmen were told that there
were no trees of the required size within miles,
only to go out into the forest and find five
within a day, but I'm not sure I could track this
one down, it's a vague memory from happy days in
the Berkeley Library). So my guess would be that
coalburners would have had access on good
quantities of thick branches and flawed trees
which would be left behind by timber cutting, and
in a 'balanced' forest economy would have used
this. This matches well with the size of a coal
whateveritscalled on a 15th century illustration
for Pliny which looks about 7 feet high and 5-6
wide. There is also a complaint from a 14th
century source in North Germany (unfortunately not
quoted, just paraphrased, in the Propyl=E4en
Technikgeschichte) that coalburners in the
Luneburg area cut down valuable trees, indicating
that they ought not have - at least in the opinion
of the timber users.
But I have no proof either :-(
Giano
From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:08:19 +0100
Subject: [Sca-cooks] charcoal burning
charcoal burners live in woodlands and there are documents dating back to
doomsday on who has the right to cut wood to burn for charcoal...this would
lead me to suspect it wasn't the waste used.
However in the siomerset levels they make charcoal from the waste willow
that is too small to be used to make the furniture
pays your money and takes your choice.
charcoal is a good way to use up gash wood but cut wood would have been used
for the quatities needed.
vara
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:18:28 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charcoal
Alban said:
> >Um, do you have any documentation for this assertion? Because there's
> >nothing in any of the mentions I've seen about charcoal burning to
> >indicate that scrap wood was used.
>
> No documentation at all; but what else would you do with large scraps?
> Either burn them directly, or if they're big enough they'd be used for
> charcoal?
I had assumed you were talking about modern production of charcoal,
Alban when you said this, such as the turning of packing crates into
charcoal which someone else mentioned.
In period, there simply would not have been enough wood scraps to
produce the amount of charcoal needed. They were clearing large
swaths of forest to make the charcoal to feed the smelters.
I guess they might have gathered some scraps and made charcoal of
them, but remember most wood projects that would produce scraps
were small job situations. It wasn't like the industrial age where
you had centralized factories that would produce great piles of
scrap in one area. Period transport was primative. It was costly
to haul things any distance by land. Often the transport costs
could exceed the value of the item itself. Why go to the expense
of gathering scraps and transporting them to an area where you
would have enough of the them to be worth turning into charcoal
when you've got vast untouched, and frankly feared, tracts of
forest. Forests were generally not something to be treasured and saved
to the medieval man.
--
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:33:38 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Making wood charcoal
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Has anyone made their own real wood charcoal?
> Tips? Suggestions? Warnings? Dire warnings :-) ?
Offered for your perusal:
http://www.eaglequest.com/~bbq/charcoal/
http://www.workingwoodlands.info/charcoalmhowmade.htm
http://www.connerprairie.org/historyonline/fuel.html
Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas
From: Edward de Kent <dailyje at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Charcoal
Date: August 6, 2012 8:08:00 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Charcoal can also be used for drawing directly. For example, Leonardo da Vinci's Head of the Virgin in Three-Quarter View Facing Right, 1508–12
(http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/51.90), though I'm sure there are earlier period examples.
-Edward de Kent
From: "<Franz Johann Gottskrieger>" <gottskrieger at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Charcoal
Date: August 6, 2012 6:13:04 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Are you talking about the food you cooked that way? Every decent American knows the only way to grill is with charcoal. You might as well cook indoors if you use gas.
Ok, now that the fun has been had.....
According to my research ( actually Fiondel's research), people making oak gall ink would char parchment to make black carbon, grind it up, and mix it into the ink to make it darker.
If your wood is far enough charred, you can do the pestle grind and make carbon powder for ink (or gunpowder).
If not, you can scrape it off with a knife and get the same result.
I don't know of any thing else an SCA person would do with it.
Franz
On Aug 6, 2012, at 12:46 PM, Jenna <southwindhall at AOL.COM> wrote:
<<< Here is an odd question: I cook on a gas grill, often placing a piece of apple wood on a shelf away from flame and direct heat for that wonderful smoke. This results in carbonized pieces of wood. Is there any use for this stuff? I'm thinking I'm creating charcoal, which has it's uses but I myself don't need it.
Jenna >>>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 14:09:27 -0500
From: Edward de Kent <dailyje at GMAIL.COM>
To: Calontir maillist maillist <CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Charcoal
On Aug 7, 2012, at 12:04 PM, Debra Hense <nickiandme at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
<<< I believe Leonardo da Vinci's charcoal was actually made from
grapevines cooked until charred within a clay covering. >>>
I cannot find any references to da Vinci specifically using only grape vine charcoal, but there are multiple contemporary Italian references to both vine charcoal and charcoal made from other woods, such as willow, which is the primary source of 'vine' charcoal today. See, e.g., Segreti per Colori and chapter 33 of Cennino Cennini's Il libro dell'arte. Cennini in particular claims that "there are no better [charcoal] crayons in the world" than those produced by his method using slips of willow, and da Vinci was aware of Cennini, whose work predated da Vinci by a few decades. Actually, Cennini's method is very similar to what you describe, except that he uses willow instead of grape vines.
Of course, this is hardly proof that da Vinci used charcoal other than grape vine charcoal, but I think it likely that he used various kinds depending on what he wanted to do (e.g. some charcoals have a different character or even tint than others).
In any case, as hardwoods, apple and other smoking woods would be passable for drawing. Some period manuscripts refer to using oak, for example. But given how inexpensive proper drawing charcoal is, I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble. And if you wanted to be really period about it (e.g. for an A&S entry) then I would recommend following the instructions in one of the period manuscripts. Cennini's process in particular is pretty straightforward.
-Edward de Kent
To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Cowboy brand charcoal (SAFETY WARNING!)
Date: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:27 pm (PDT) .
Posted by: "Chris Collins" ekkehardtofoakenwode
The last five bags of Cowboy brand charcoal that I bought had at least one large ( at 1 lb) rock in them. I just shrugged and figured I'd save them up and build a new shop :P
Now the dangerous part. I dumped a large pile of charcoal on my fire and went to work. About twenty minutes later, there was a loud POP and several glowing coals jumped out of the fire.
One of them landed on bare skin on my foot. Ordinarily, just an
annoyance...dip foot in slack tub and continue to work. This time, however, the "scale" still stuck to my foot started to smoke. Yep, the rocks are limestone and had mostly kilned over to lime. So, now I have a few chemical burns to add to my collection...
I think a lot of us use charcoal at events. Had I been at an event, with a child watching from eight feet away (I found chunks of lime further than that...) they might have been burned, and I don't think any waiver would stand up to that scenario :(
Now I make a point of dumping the charcoal into a metal bucket, shake it and use either a bare hand, or steel shovel to put it on the
fire...listening carefully for a clunk of rock.
Hope everyone that's going/are there already at Pennsic are having a good safe (enough) war.
-Master Ekk
Subject: Re: Cowboy brand charcoal (SAFETY WARNING!)
Date: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:40 am (PDT) .
Posted by: "Chris Collins" ekkehardtofoakenwode Hi Mike,
FWIW, it was five different bags/three different stores...granted, all in
the same general area. I have contacted the _local store_ here in town and
they tell me that they can get info for me by next week.
I suspect there may be a few roadblocks as far as the legal route goes,
however. "Hecho en Mexico" is plainly displayed on the bag. It's also
shipped from there, so the US-side middleman could easily claim ignorance.
My guess is some poor mimimum-wage laborer was told to load "X-many"
pounds before break, combined with a lack of supervision, or even more
simply a case of not paying attention. I suppose there's always the
possibility of "fleecing gringos, too :P
When I can find it, I prefer to use "Nature's Own" which shows solid
evidence of being more "green" and using post-mill wood to start with. I
used to have a really cool charcoal small bench board made from perfectly
carbonized hardwood flooring ends from several of their bags...and their
charcoal operation is in Canada.
I just tried "Royal Oak" lump charcoal this past week. Not bad, but there
were a couple chunks of un-charred wood, but still better quality (and a
lot less labor!) than the last time I tried it. I got it at Walmart, even.
Anyways, I'll let everyone know when I get the useful contact info.
-Master Ekk
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:08 AM, CGRAF <adveniam at att.net> wrote:
> If you still have the bag, KEEP IT.
> A lot number will be important to them.
>
> Chances are the contamination was not in the wood, as the stone should
> have exploded during the process of making the charcoal.
>
> My bet would be a dual use front end loader with rock from the new
> driveway still on board, or a layer of new stone somewhere on the
> property. It should be an easy fix for them and likely to be a one time
> occurrence.
>
> They still need to hear from some of us just so they check on it, and
> report back.
>
> Mike Graf
From: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EKMetalsmiths] Digest Number 1684
Date: September 28, 2013 7:54:32 AM CDT
To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
Re: Cowboy brand charcoal (SAFETY WARNING!) by "Chris Collins" ekkehardtofoakenwode
Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:33 pm (PDT). Posted by: "Chris Collins" ekkehardtofoakenwode
Francis has it right. I've worked in a couple wood-product mills, and the
amount that simply gets thrown on the burn pile pisses me off (I can't take
all of it home :P ) The last mill I worked at made wood pallets and
kiln-dried firewood. I saw _perfect_, straight ash logs(over 20' long and
2' diameter) cut to 18" and split for the kiln.
We also totaled about three Pallet-cages (4x4x4) of off-cuts (granted,
poplar) that was simply burned in a big heap out behind the shop, when the
weather would allow it.
Knowing that a company is using that kind of scrap-wood for charcoal makes
me feel better about it. I haven't been actively pursuing the issue since
I've got more important things going right now (truck died last week, and
I'm pushing pedals until I find something else)
Have fun, be safe! (Probably in that order :P )
- Ekk
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Mike Wilson <captainneeda at gmail.com>wrote:
> I believe that when he says "green," he's referring to the environmental
> side of things. That is, he's giving preference to charcoal made from
> waste wood as opposed to cutting trees purely for charcoal.
>
> -Francis Bean
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Stefan li Rous stefanlirous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, this is probably too late. I only occasionally poke my head in
>> here.
>>
>> Master Ekk said:
>> <<< When I can find it, I prefer to use "Nature's Own" which shows solid
>> evidence of being more "green" and using post-mill wood to start with. >>>
>> Thanks for the charcoal brand recommendations. But why would you want
>> charcoal that shows evidence of being more "green"? And why would you
>> prefer post-mill wood as opposed to wood cut for charcoal, which would seem
>> to be the greenest of all unless it was dried/seasoned specifically?
>>
>> Stefan
From: john heitman <gottskrieger at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] making charcoal
Date: October 4, 2013 10:36:25 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
It's also for making gun powder. It is EXTREMELY fine, and falls apart at the touch if cooked long enough.
Franz
On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Debra Hense <nickiandme at gmail.com> wrote:
It's for drawing with. I believe it is described in one of the
treatise's in the Dover's Diverse (medieval) Arts book. I can't
remember the name right now - but is a craftsman type of book -
describing how to make pigments, make and paint fresco's etc.
On 10/3/13, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> This would definitely result in a softer charcoal. This is a lot more
> expensive in manpower per resultant ounce, as opposed to pound of charcoal.
>
> Any evidence of this being done in period?
>
> What would it be used for, then and now?
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
> On Oct 3, 2013, at 10:05 AM, Debra Hense <nickiandme at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> A finer, softer, charcoal can also be made from grapevine vines.
>> Surround with clay and pop in the fire until done - usually an hour or
>> so later. It takes some experimenting.
>>
>> Kateryn
<the end>