tournaments-msg - 2/25/06 Medieval tournaments. NOTE: See also the files: tournaments-art, tourn-ideas-msg, weapons-msg, jousting-msg, marshalling-msg, b-battles-art, Fightng-Small-art, p-tourn-styls-lnks, The-Joust-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: VIS%AI.AI.MIT.EDU at MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU ("Thomas R. Courtney") Date: 19 Apr 90 04:50:02 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Recently, a gentle (I think it weas Kwelland-Njall) suggested that blow strength not be the ultimate test for whether a blow was good, asserting "It is unchivalrous, as this is not mortal combat, but rather an exercise in the arts of war by gentles of honor and chivalry." This statement got me to thinking: what do we actually model in a tournament? Actually, this question has bothered me for a long time, for I fear the answer is either "nothing" or "practice at the pells". All of my study leads me to conclude that tournament combat was a dangerous affair. People died in them, the Church tried to ban them, the kings of England and France tried to license them. Maurice Keen, in his excellent book "Chivalry", gives a good description: Nearly all the early accounts of tournaments that offer any detail come in fact from literary sources, which are open to the suspicion of having glamourised unduly the picture that they give of them. If some allowance is made for literary romanticisation, however, the descriptions of tournaments in, for instance, the romances of Chretien de Troyes tally reasonably well with historical accounts, say those in the verse biography of William the Marshall. Both alike make it clear that the tournaments of the twelfth century were very rough occasions, only just distinguishable from real battle. A day for the tournament was announced, perhaps two or three weeks beforehand (more in the case of a great tournament), and publicised by messengers. The site of the tournament was settled in advance, and would cover a wide area, permitting the fighting to range over the countryside and into villages. The limits that we usually hear of are that the tournament shall take place between two townships, between Rougemont and Montbeliard, for instance, or between Warwick and Kenilworth (as in Richard I's ordinance for tournaments in England). There were no lists, and the only places where the participants could be safe were the roped off refuges where they were permitted to rest and disarm. Those taking part were usually divided into two teams, the Angevins and the French, as it might be, or in England Northerners and Southerners, and customs quickly developed as to which side knights from a given area or "march" should join. The earliest accounts say nothing of judges or referees, and though the principle weapons were lance and sword, virtually no holds were barred (though the use of bolts and arrows seems to have been frowned on). Prisoners were taken, and held to ransom, and their horses and armour were the legitimate spoil of their captors. Cretiens description in "Erec et Enide" of the tourney in the plain below Tenebroc well conveys the confusion when the fighting began: "On either side of the ranks tremble and a roar rises from the fight. The shock of lances is very great. Lances break and shields are riddled, the hauberks receive bumps and are torn asunder, saddles go empty and horsemen tumble, while the horses sweat and foam. Swords are quickly drawn on those who fall noisily, and some run to receive the promise of ransom, others to stave off this disgrace." The line could indeed be thin between mock war and the real thing. Pretty rough stuff, and not very much like what we do. Later, things became more organised, but apparently no less dangerous. Henry II of France was mortally wounded in a tournament in 1559. Furthermore, though dangerous, I get the impression that tournaments were not as important in medieval times as they are for us. Participation in tournament was a step on the path to chivalric perfection, not an end in itself. This leads me to the conclusion that a core experience of SCA life, the tournament, is a very poor distortion of what happened in the medieval world. I do not claim we should make combat dangerous (I like being able to fight with my friends week after week), but it seems to me we are giving ourselves a very bad lesson in what chivalry was or wasn't. Tom Courtney aka Vissevald Selkirksson From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Joshua Mittleman) Date: 19 Apr 90 20:03:16 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Duke Vissevald makes some excellent points in comparing SCA tournaments with medieval tournaments. I would offer two thoughts. He writes: > Furthermore, though dangerous, I get the impression that tournaments were not > as important in medieval times as they are for us. Participation in > tournament was a step on the path to chivalric perfection, not an > end in itself. I think this may be true in one sense, but not in another. The best of the tournament participants, if we may take William the Marshall as a case in point, occupied a position in society similar to a star athlete in today's world. The tournament brought fame and fortune directly, and, by way of the contacts and recognition that might come to the star, possibilities for advancement in other fields. Williams career began on the tourney circuit, where he won reknown and wealth through his exploits. By shining in this arena, he came to the attention of powerful nobles, who hired on top tournament knights like a baseball club owner buying up outfielders. Through the patronage of these nobles, he rose to nearly royal rank. Our tournaments may perhaps more closely resemble the staged combat, the pas d'armes. A nobleman might let it be known that he and six other knights would stand the field against all comers, or that they would challenge three other groups of knights: 7 at lance, seven at sword, and seven at mace. If the romance accounts are to be accepted, these combats would be accompanied by pagentry, feasting, and general entertainment, often with a mythological or fantastic theme. The best SCA events seem to follow this pattern. Lord Galleron de la Chenille and the good folk of Hartshorndale have tried to more closely recreate this kind of tournament in the SCA, and Lord Galleron and Baron Dawyd are currently writing a paper on how medieval tournaments might more effectively be re-created. Arval. From: rick at oliveb.OLIVETTI.COM (Rick Meneely) Date: 11 May 90 02:37:29 GMT Tourney ransom/ Knightly overhead: ---------------------------------- Tom Courtney, aka Vissevald Selkirksson writes: > It was suggested that the ransom price for armour and horse was inexpensive as > an example of the golden rule. This may be true, but I think there may have > been a simpler explanation. The markdown may have occurred simply because > selling the booty to show a profit took both time and expertise at selling. Being a knight was expensive. The main reason for it's decline in the 12th century was probably due to this expense. "The price of knightly equipment, too, had mounted to the point where the initial outlay might cost a knight a year's income." - 'The Knight in History'; Frances Gies Some prices I have extracted are... Genoa - first half of 13th century: * Helm - 16-32 shillings * Hauberk 120-152 shillings; with accessories approx. 200 shillings. I also have a reference to William Marshal getting a horse worth over 40 pounds for only 7 pounds through craftiness. What the expected yearly income for a knight was...I don't know. Does anyone have some fiqures? Apparently tourney rules varied a great deal. SOMETIMES armour and horses were ransomed. SOMETIMES ransoms were arranged BEFOREHAND. While a high ransom was seen as expressing the worth of the captive and was not looked badly upon. Ransom raising seems to have been a collective effort at the end of a tourney. This means that you could afford to pay more ransom through friends than you could alone. Also knights were not unknown to ...DEBT. "In England, as the cost of knighthood increased, some knights with small landholdings clubbed together to pay the expenses of the service of one of their number". - 'The Knight in History'; Frances Gies A clause in the Magna Carta forbids the gift or sale of land equivalent to a knight's fee thereby owning the service of a knight. While many had to pledge their lands and armor to raise money. WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN?...Well for one thing knights may have had fame, but very few had fortune. Yes, some even went Chapter 11. From: leif at sugar.hackercorp.com (Lee King) Date: 12 May 90 20:12:27 GMT Organization: Sugar Land Unix - Houston > Tom Courtney, aka Vissevald Selkirksson writes: > > > It was suggested that the ransom price for armour and horse was inexpensive as > > been a simpler explanation. The markdown may have occurred simply because > > selling the booty to show a profit took both time and expertise at selling. > Being a knight was expensive. The main reason for it's decline in the > 12th century was probably due to this expense. > > "The price of knightly equipment, too, had mounted to the point where the > initial outlay might cost a knight a year's income." - 'The Knight in > History'; Frances Gies > Some prices I have extracted are... > Genoa - first half of 13th century: > * Helm - 16-32 shillings > * Hauberk 120-152 shillings; with accessories approx. 200 shillings. > I also have a reference to William Marshal getting a horse worth over > 40 pounds for only 7 pounds through craftiness. > What the expected yearly income for a knight was...I don't know. Does > anyone have some fiqures? Yes, knighthood was expensive. For example, the Assize of Arms of Henry II of England declared: "Let every holder of a knight's fee have a hauberk, a helmet, a shield and a lance." Add the three horse required of a knight and the upkeep of any valets or armigers, and you come to a pretty penny for even a fairly undistinguished knight. Knighthood was so expensive that many, although possessing the ways and means, refused dubbing to avoid participating in the honor and expenses of knighthood. Philippe Contamine, in _War in the Middle Ages_, writes that in late 13th Century England, there were some 1,250 knights (earls and barons included), of whom only ~500 were capable of mobilization. At the same time, there were up to 1,750 non-knights who had sufficient revenues and fees to become knights if they had so desired. The Crown, through distraints of knighthood, made 26 attempts between 1224 and 1272 to enlist all men possessing the knightly fee of L20 (20 pounds). Although I could find no figures for total knightly income, per se, I did find figures for scutage (fees paid in lieu of military service), wages paid militia, fief rents (fief de chambre) and fees which, although amounting to payment for volunteers, was apparently not considered such, but more of a campaign indemnity paid to allow the warriors to meet the supplementary expenses of war. In the first category, at the end of the 12th Century, the 50 knights of Bury St Edmunds paid the abbot 29d every 20 weeks rather than mount watch. The rate of scutage in England in the second half of the 12th Century was levied at the rate of 6d (6 pence) per day, that is 240d or L1 per the standard 40 day period of service. Contamine also says that, "In 1227 Frederick II, preparing his crusade, ordered that in the kingdom of Sicily 'every fief-holder should pay for each fief eight ounces of gold and every eight fiefs should provide a knight'; in other words, from each group of eight fees the King-Emperor would get one knight and 64 ounces of gold which represented about a year's pay at current rates"(91.) One of the uses of the money thus collected was the payment of militia. In Perugia and Florence in the 13th Century, the militiamen were paid from the first day of the campaign. This pay amounted to 5s per foot soldier, 10s for a man with one horse, 15s for a man with two horses (Perugia), 3s for crossbowmen, 2s 8d for archers, 2s 6d for pavesiers and 2s for ordinary foot soldiers in Florence.(91) Fief rents were, in effect, annual pensions paid for eventual service. Contamine gives the case of Fernand de Jean as an example. This worthy, a Castilian knight who had abandoned the service of the king of Castile, had been in receipt of an annual income of 300l (300 livres) from that source. For his first year in service to Philip III of France, he received the same sum during pleasure of for life in exchange for homage to Phillip III above all others (except Philip's nephews, sons of his sister Blanche, and Fernando of Castile). He was required to serve Philipe with 10 knights freely for 40 days a year, presenting himself and men within 6 weeks of summons. He was only required to serve only the lands of the king of Aragon, Castile, and Portugal, in the kingdom of Navarre, in Gascony and in the county of Toulouse. After the 40 days he would draw a daily wage of 7s 6d (tournois), with no provisions for replacing of lost horses.(92-93) Finally, Contamine gives the daily rates for soldiers in England and France c. 1150-c.1300 as Knights foot soldiers 1150-70 6d c.1165 8d 1d c.1196 1s c.1215 2s 2d c.1250 2s III of France, he received the same sum during pleasure of for life in exchange for homage to Phillip III above all others (except Philip's nephews, sons of his sister Blanche, and Fernando of Castile). He was required to serve Philipe with 10 knights freely for 40 days a year, presenting himself and men within 6 weeks of summons. He was only required to serve only the lands of the king of Aragon, Castile, and Portugal, in the kingdom of Navarre, in Gascony and in the county of Toulouse. After the 40 days he would draw a daily wage of 7s 6d (tournois), with no provisions for replacing of lost horses.(92-93) Finally, Contamine gives the daily rates for soldiers in England and France c. 1150-c.1300 as Knights foot soldiers 1150-70 6d c.1165 8d 1d c.1196 1s c.1215 2s 2d c.1250 2s c.1300 2,3,or 4s* 2d+ --------------------------------------------------------------------- France (in livres tournois) 1202 7s 6d 10d 1295 10s, 12s 6d, or 15s** 12d++ *in silver: 31.12g, 46.49g or 62.24g +in silver: 2.6g **in silver: 33.48g, 41.85g, or 50.22g ++in silver: 3.34g -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contamine, Philippe. _War in the Middle Ages_. Trans. Michael Jones. New York: Blackwell, 1984. From: John-Joseph Bober To: All 17-May-90 08:33am Subject: Ransom & Female Coronets... 1) To those debating the ransoming prices of the Middle Ages, a bit of information. "It has been calculated that around 1250 in England, the equipment of a knight, his horses included, was equivalent to his year's revenue, that is L20." (page 97, _War in the Middle Ages_ Contamine, Philippe. I didn't go looking for it, I just happen to be reading the book at work while my golem translates my instructions (read compile programs). 2) If I read correctly, the Lady who won the coronet of Drachenward in her own right was Gwenllhian during the reign of Gavin and Sedalia. Yours in Service, Jan Ioseph Alex Re: Fencing List Sources Date: 25 Nov 91 A>From: IO00970 at MAINE.BITNET (Alex) A> I am trying to organize a fencing tourney, and am looking for A>ideas as A> to types of fun, non-competitive, long lasting tournies. I A>will A> accept any and all ideas, sources, et cetera, both period and A>otherwise One of the more popular forms we have used is the "Tavern Brawl" scenario, where all participants arrange themselves, seated, as if ìin a tavern. At the Marshall's signal, a free-for-all melee erupts. Last person alive is the winner. The walls are marked off, and if one is driven thru a wall, one is dead. The tavern usually has an entrance marked, and being driven thru that counts as not-dead, but out of the fight until re-entered. This has a tendency to get -real exciting- at times! BTW, chairs and stools as parrying weapons (ONLY!) are considered legal. -Ioseph of Locksley From: lisch at relay.mentorg.COM (Ray Lischner) Date: 6 Dec 91 22:18:56 GMT Organization: The Internet >>>>> On 6 Dec 91 12:36:07 GMT, awbaben at accucx.cc.ruu.nl (Marcel Kramer) said: Marcel> Now about period-looking, what finally persuaded me to post: Marcel> First heavy weapons, this can be completly authentic, but for the weapons, Marcel> i.e. the rattan. This for safety purposes. We use rattan rather than blunted steel for safety reasons. Some other re-creation groups use blunted steel rather than sharp steel for safety reasons. In the Middle Ages, the knights were no more desirous of being injured or killed than we are, so they, too, used blunted steel, wood, whalebone, etc., instead of sharp steel in their tournaments. In the SCA, we are (unwittingly) recreating the tournaments, jousts, and similar martial sports of the Middle Ages, to a surprising degree of accuracy. There is almost no difference between the medieval behourd and an SCA resurrection battle. One treatise on tournaments* (probably written between 1462 and 1475) specifies that swords are to be made from fir or yew. We use rattan; I do not consider that to be a significant difference. We use carpet armor; they used linen. We use plastic; they used whalebone. We use mail; they used mail. We use plate; they used plate. We use boiled leather; they used boiled leather. We ban real weapons from the lists; so did they.* We have a minister of the lists to make sure the entrants are properly authorized; so did they---they were called heralds, and the entrance requirements were that one had to be a knight, not an enemy of the king, and so on**. We have marshals to keep people from hurting the spectators or from hurting themselves or other combatants more than strictly necessary; so did they.*** We have a minister of the lists to keep track of who fights whom. So did they. In a fifteenth century pas d'armes, or passage of arms, a common form was for one or more knights to display shields and issue an open challenge to all comers. Any comer could sign his name on a piece of paper on or near the shield, or a herald (can you say minister of the lists?) might write the name instead. The herald was then responsible for making sure that each comer had his chance to face the challenger, in the proper order.*** The only difference is that they did not have eliminations, round robins, and the like. So far, however, I have not found any evidence for medieval use of duct tape. :-) *La forme des tournois au temps du Roy Uter and du Roy Artus suivie de l'armorial des chevaliers de la table ronde, in "The influence of romances on tournaments of the Middle Ages," by Ruth Huff Cline, in Speculum, vol. 20, no. 2, April, 1945, pp. 204-211. English translation by your truly to be published "real soon." **Book of Tournaments by Rene d'Anjou (written in 1451), in Francis Henry Cripss-Day, The history of the tournament in England and in France. NY: AMS Press, 1982. ISBN 0-404-17138-9. Reprint of London: B. Quartich, 1918. ***A well-known example is the Field of Cloth of Gold, in 1520. A rather complete discussion of this event can be found in "The field of cloth of gold." (Oops, complete citation is at home. For details, send me email.) For more information about medieval tournaments, jousts, etc., see Richard Barber & Juliet Barker, "Tournaments: Jousts, chivalry and pageants in the Middle Ages." NY: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1989. ISBN 1-55584-400-6. Peregrine Payne Dragon's Mist, An Tir Ray Lischner UUCP: {uunet,apollo,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch this might work, too: lisch at mentorg.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Subject: Re: Book query Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 19:26:53 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! Thorfyrd wrote: > Is anyone able to recommend, or otherwise, the following books: > > "Records of the Medieval Sword", ISBN 0-85115539-1 > "Tournaments", ISBN 0-85115490-0 ISBN are wonderfully accurate for identifying books if you happen to have a computerized catalogue to cross-check. For mere mortals, the authors' names would be helpful. If the latter book is by Richard Barber and Juliet Barker, then I recommend it most highly: It is the single best general-purpose survey of the history of the tournament that I have encountered. It is quite readable, heavily illustrated, and has an excellent bibliography. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan) Subject: Re: Alternative Tourney formats Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 04:48:29 GMT David Friedman (DDF2 at cornell.edu) wrote: : I came across a rule somewhere from a tournament saying that each knight : was allowed to bring three squires. It was not clear to me whether the : squires were actually on the field helping the knight during some part of : the fighting or not, but that seemed a possible interpretation. It was the : grounds on which Grey Gargoyles started doing four man team tournies--each : team being a knight and three squires, or a leader and three followers. : -- : David/Cariadoc : DDF2 at Cornell.Edu In the 15th c. form of tournament called the pas d'armes there were various rules about the size and nature of the knights' retinue. Typically, for the melee combats (and sometimes for individual foot combats as well), a knight could be accompanied onto the field by some number of squires. The squires usually couldn't actively fight against other knights; their purpose was to help defend their knight against others. The squires were equipped with limited armor and with rods or staffs for the defensive action. Later on, the distinctions between squires and knights got blurry, and eventually the Middle Ages ended... Cheers, Tim Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Subject: Re: Music during tournaments Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 19:21:07 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! Miklos wrote: > I was disturbed by the comment one gentle made in the "Melodia" thread about > music not being appropriate by the side of the lists. A large number of > illuminations of tournaments include musicians playing during the tourney. > In my opinion, music makes tournaments more festive and more interesting > to non-fighters. I've found that events that involve non-fighters in the > tournament (as spectators or otherwise) are much more interesting for > everyone concerned. I could not agree more strongly. The tournament should not be approached as a sporting event, even as a highly honorable sporting event. Rather, it should be the stage for the display of _all_ the virtues of chivalry, which include prowess but also nobility and courtliness. Through most of the history of the tournament, it was a courtly entertainment in which the actual fighting was often no more than the excuse for a grand pageant and festival. It was common for a tournament to last a full week, with fighting only on part of one day. Consider, for example, that King Rene's devoted nearly all of his Book of Tournaments to description of the processions, ceremonies, and parties, and covered the actual fighting in a single paragraph. Society tournaments should include entertainment to appeal to all comers; music, dancing, and singing should be indispensable. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/15/95) To: ansteorra at eden.com RE>Tournaments... Antonio Bastiano writes: > I've had some problem finding information on how tournaments were actually > held The book you want to get is _Tournaments: Jousts, Chivalry and Pageants in the Middle Ages_, by Richard Barber and Juiliet Barker, 1989, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, New York, ISBN 1-55584-400-6. This is by far the best book on medieval tournaments I've ever found or heard of. It's a scholarly book, with an really good bibliography, but written in a very easy-to-read, coffee-table book style, and loaded with illustrations from period manuscripts and artwork. As Da'ud Bob says, "Check it out!" From the Table of Contents: 1. The origins of the Tournament 2. The Tournament in North-West Europe to 1400 3. The Tournament in Germany 4. The Tournament in Italy and Spain 5. The Late Medieval and Renaissance Tournament: Spectavles, Pas d'arms, and Challenges 6. The Dangers of Tournament: Spiritual Condemnation and Public Disorder 7. Tournament Armour 8. Tournaments as Events Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: mchance at crl.com From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 18 Jul 1995 18:38:13 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington In article <3ugr8j$qoj at uwm.edu>, Barbara Jean Kuehl wrote: > >Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry) >or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only? In the late 16th century Queen Elizabeth sold tickets to the Accession Day tournaments (2 shillings, if I remember correctly), which would have yielded her quite a bit of income. The tiltyard was located near Westminster Abbey. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 18 Jul 1995 14:47:39 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Barbara Jean Kuehl (bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote: : Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry) : or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only? I do not know of any specific evidence of lower-class crowds at tournaments, but even if my knowledge of the sources were far greater than it is, I don't think this would be conclusive proof that tournaments were watched exclusively by the nobility. Many tournaments were held in circumstances which would have allowed the general public to watch (e.g., outside the walls of a city), and many more were combined with elaborate pageants that were clearly aimed toward the populace. But it doesn't follow that the populace's interest extended from the pageant to the hastiludes themselves. Toward the end of our period, there were sports which grew out of the tournament which included participants from the middle class, if not the lower class; but these were not true tournaments, so a generalization is unfounded. Throughout the period, of course, there were servants, musicians, and other minstrels who worked at tournaments, and there were tournaments which were held at popular fairs and festivals; but again, this evidence is merely suggestive. In the absence of evidence that the lower classes did watch tournaments, it is probably safest to assume that they did not; but that hypothesis is very weak, at best. I suspect the answer very much depends on the time and place. Arval From: ritchiek at expert.cc.purdue.edu (Karen Ritchie) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 18 Jul 1995 16:10:08 -0500 Organization: Purdue University One gentle posted a question asking if the peasants watched jousting or if it was entertainment for nobles and royalty only. In my research of period jousts and tournaments I would say that the peasants did see the jousts, whether they found them entertaining or not is hard to say, but some of the jousting took place in the village streets so a law was passed requiring that the jousting knights have bells on their horses so that the populace could hear them coming and get out of their way. this is why many period illustrations show large bells on the horses. In most cases the peasants would have taken advantage of the crowds drawn by the jousts to sell any extra produce they might be able to spare.-Isabeau P. From: axv0015 at vaxd.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 20 Jul 1995 13:06:11 GMT Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology In article <3uk86e$jin at rand.org>, waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) writes: (snip) >I do not *KNOW*, and am not sufficiently interested to do the digging that >would be required to prove conclusively the presence of peasants, laborers >etc. and tournements. I cannot however, believe that the people of the >Middle Ages would be utterly indifferent to the specatcle of the >tournement, given their love of spectacle and display in religious festivals, >pageants, public executions etc. We may not have very many concrete sources concerning the presence of the lower classes at hastiludia, but there are sources that infer this. "...whilst in 1281 at Magdeburg merchants and townsmen met at Pentecost." Refering to 'Gral' tournaments (Arthurian theme): "...connected with spring festivals and took place in May or Whitsuntide..." There is even an account wherein a minstrel composed a song in which he asked for a horse. William the Marshall jumped on his horse, unseated a knight, and presented the horse to the minstrel. Later centuries provide us with better sources. Hastiludia were often used to celebrate Coronations or weddings. These usualy were proclaimed throughout Europe. "At such gatherings potential trouble could never be ruled out. In 1362 the town council of in Nuremburg tried unsuccessfully to forbid the tournament because of the disturbances caused by the townspeople at these meetings." > (snip) >I would suggest, again, that it was because they were invisible to the >aristocracy and most of the religious chroniclers. I also don't see how, >in cases where the lists could be overlooked from outside, they could have >been excluded. I agree. The passages we find almost never mention those of low status. However, much can be deduced from where and when a tourney is held. Some accounts speak of town festivals wherein knights were asked to attend 'jousts'. Many documents mention processions and public pageantry. The later in period we go the greater the proliferation of such passages and actual references to the lower classes. Public records also reflect the fact that townspeople probably had too good a time at these events. > (snip) >Cheers, >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE >RAND | >walter_nelson at rand.org | >___________________________________________________________________________ Ariel From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 19 Jul 1995 19:09:18 -0700 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access Arval writes: >A large proportion of the contemporary accounts of tournaments come to us >from clerical chroniclers, most of whom used their writings to attack the >tournament as fundamentally evil. If the tournament were attracting large >crowds of the common folk, I would expect these chroniclers to have include >a charge that tournaments encouraged the common folk to sloth and drew them >away from their labor. But, as far as I know, that charge is not found in >the chronicles. Barber and Barker do mention that there are numerous writing and ordinance with regards to tournaments and civil disorder. There does seem to have been _some_ disruption to the local way of life when the tourney came to your town. Witness the numerous ordinances prohibiting tourneys within or near towns, against tourneyers "fraternizing" with townsfolk, etc. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: mchance at crl.com From: paigen at best.com (David Paigen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 21 Jul 1995 14:19:27 -0700 Organization: Forte Computer Systems, Brisbane CA mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman) writes: >In my own studies of the medieval tournament, I have found no evidence of >lower class audiences. It seems unlikely to me that such audiences would >not have been mentioned in the many surviving descriptions of the >tournament if they were routinely present. My close study of history starts in 1485, so I can't speak as to who would watch medieval tourneys. However, _Tudor_and_Jacobean_ _Tournaments_ spends considerable time discussing the audience for tourneys, where they watched from, and the problems involved. Stands were erected for the monarch, nobels, and other high class folks, regular folks were charged an admission and watched from just outside a fence surrounding the tiltyard. The book includes quotes, notes primary sources, and also has a number of woodcuts that show peasentry watching jousts. This is true for Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James I/VIII. I don't have the book with me here at work, so if you want proper citations, mail me at paigen at forte.org. -- David Paigen, aka Sir Henry Lee, Queen's Champion Will answer stupid user paigen at best.com C, unix, X, news, and questions for beer. paigen at forte.org distributed systems (good beer) From: cmalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 09:51:00 CST Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates On the subject of jousting and non-nobility, I have heard of a couple of games that the lower classes would play at festivals: In one, they would "joust" each other on wooden sawhorses with wheels, pushed by a few of their friends. In the second, they would dress a man in jousting armor, give him a shield and set him in a chair. Then people would take a "lance" and try to unseat him. Though not appropriate for nobility, these are both feasable for what we do, and could be a lot of fun. I remain Yours, etc. Antonio Bastiano or cmwalden at bga.com From: daniel.dillman at gollum.cloudnet.com (Daniel Dillman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 04:01:00 GMT Organization: Personal Computer Services >Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry) >or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only? This likely varied from time to time and place. In _A Distant Mirror_, Barbara Tuchman discusses the French tournaments to some degree. While she doesn't explicitly state that peasants were not allowed, she does seem to imply that they were not present in significant numbers during the 14th century. From: chronique at aol.com (Chronique) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: NEW BOOK--THE BOOK OF THE TOURNAMENT Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:29:29 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) THE CHIVALRY BOOKSHELF Our first hardcover book, "The Book of the Tournament," is at the printers and will be received in time for Pennsic! The Book of the Tournament is meant for novices and advanced combatants alike. It explores the meaning and function of the tournament, answering many questions and striving to provoke discussions: What is renown? What is the role of the consort? What are the different formats of tournaments? What is the role of a marshal or herald? How do we define victory? What are the duties of a squire? What does it mean to be a knight? What is the company of Saint George? Set in the layout style of an early Caxton book, the physical layout is based on the 1485 edition of The Boke of Knyghthode and Chuyalry by Ramon Lull. It is printed on natural, heavy paper and bound in a red leatherette--meant for keeping. It is our intention that this is the first book of a series--THE KNIGHT'S BOOKSHELF. Next summer we hope to release a collection of period knightly handbooks--Ramon Lull, Geoffry de Charnay, and the Ordene de Chevalerie. These are pieces that anyone interested in knighthood will find fascinating--and we are considering presenting the translations in side-by-side format. THE BOOK OF THE TOURNAMENT will be available Aug. 13 for $21.95. For your copy, pick one up at the Pennsic War at Sir Talbot's booth or at other courteous armourers. Or telephone your order to us at 415.961.2187, leaving your name, address, VISA/MC card number with expiration. Or send a check for $21.95 +$3.00 S+H to: The Chivalry Bookshelf 316 Escuela Avenue #38 Mountain View, CA 94040 415.961.2187 Chronique at aol.com after Aug. 25: http://www.chronique.com From: ritchiek at expert.cc.purdue.edu (Karen Ritchie) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 18 Jul 1995 16:10:08 -0500 Organization: Purdue University One gentle posted a question asking if the peasants watched jousting or if it was entertainment for nobles and royalty only. In my research of period jousts and tournaments I would say that the peasants did see the jousts, whether they found them entertaining or not is hard to say, but some of the jousting took place in the village streets so a law was passed requiring that the jousting knights have bells on their horses so that the populace could hear them coming and get out of their way. this is why many period illustrations show large bells on the horses. In most cases the peasants would have taken advantage of the crowds drawn by the jousts to sell any extra produce they might be able to spare.-Isabeau P. From: axv0015 at vaxd.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 20 Jul 1995 13:06:11 GMT Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology In article <3uk86e$jin at rand.org>, waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson) writes: (snip) >I do not *KNOW*, and am not sufficiently interested to do the digging that >would be required to prove conclusively the presence of peasants, laborers >etc. and tournements. I cannot however, believe that the people of the >Middle Ages would be utterly indifferent to the specatcle of the >tournement, given their love of spectacle and display in religious festivals, >pageants, public executions etc. We may not have very many concrete sources concerning the presence of the lower classes at hastiludia, but there are sources that infer this. "...whilst in 1281 at Magdeburg merchants and townsmen met at Pentecost." Refering to 'Gral' tournaments (Arthurian theme): "...connected with spring festivals and took place in May or Whitsuntide..." There is even an account wherein a minstrel composed a song in which he asked for a horse. William the Marshall jumped on his horse, unseated a knight, and presented the horse to the minstrel. Later centuries provide us with better sources. Hastiludia were often used to celebrate Coronations or weddings. These usualy were proclaimed throughout Europe. "At such gatherings potential trouble could never be ruled out. In 1362 the town council of in Nuremburg tried unsuccessfully to forbid the tournament because of the disturbances caused by the townspeople at these meetings." > (snip) >I would suggest, again, that it was because they were invisible to the >aristocracy and most of the religious chroniclers. I also don't see how, >in cases where the lists could be overlooked from outside, they could have >been excluded. I agree. The passages we find almost never mention those of low status. However, much can be deduced from where and when a tourney is held. Some accounts speak of town festivals wherein knights were asked to attend 'jousts'. Many documents mention processions and public pageantry. The later in period we go the greater the proliferation of such passages and actual references to the lower classes. Public records also reflect the fact that townspeople probably had too good a time at these events. > (snip) >Walter Nelson >RAND >walter_nelson at rand.org Ariel From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 19 Jul 1995 19:09:18 -0700 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access Arval writes: >A large proportion of the contemporary accounts of tournaments come to us >from clerical chroniclers, most of whom used their writings to attack the >tournament as fundamentally evil. If the tournament were attracting large >crowds of the common folk, I would expect these chroniclers to have include >a charge that tournaments encouraged the common folk to sloth and drew them >away from their labor. But, as far as I know, that charge is not found in >the chronicles. Barber and Barker do mention that there are numerous writing and ordinance with regards to tournaments and civil disorder. There does seem to have been _some_ disruption to the local way of life when the tourney came to your town. Witness the numerous ordinances prohibiting tourneys within or near towns, against tourneyers "fraternizing" with townsfolk, etc. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: mchance at crl.com From: paigen at best.com (David Paigen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: 21 Jul 1995 14:19:27 -0700 Organization: Forte Computer Systems, Brisbane CA mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman) writes: >In my own studies of the medieval tournament, I have found no evidence of >lower class audiences. It seems unlikely to me that such audiences would >not have been mentioned in the many surviving descriptions of the >tournament if they were routinely present. My close study of history starts in 1485, so I can't speak as to who would watch medieval tourneys. However, _Tudor_and_Jacobean_ _Tournaments_ spends considerable time discussing the audience for tourneys, where they watched from, and the problems involved. Stands were erected for the monarch, nobels, and other high class folks, regular folks were charged an admission and watched from just outside a fence surrounding the tiltyard. The book includes quotes, notes primary sources, and also has a number of woodcuts that show peasentry watching jousts. This is true for Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James I/VIII. I don't have the book with me here at work, so if you want proper citations, mail me at paigen at forte.org. -- David Paigen, aka Sir Henry Lee, Queen's Champion Will answer stupid user paigen at best.com C, unix, X, news, and questions for beer. paigen at forte.org distributed systems (good beer) From: cmalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 09:51:00 CST Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates On the subject of jousting and non-nobility, I have heard of a couple of games that the lower classes would play at festivals: In one, they would "joust" each other on wooden sawhorses with wheels, pushed by a few of their friends. In the second, they would dress a man in jousting armor, give him a shield and set him in a chair. Then people would take a "lance" and try to unseat him. Though not appropriate for nobility, these are both feasable for what we do, and could be a lot of fun. I remain Yours, etc. Antonio Bastiano or cmwalden at bga.com From: daniel.dillman at gollum.cloudnet.com (Daniel Dillman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Question about Jousting Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 04:01:00 GMT Organization: Personal Computer Services >Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry) >or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only? This likely varied from time to time and place. In _A Distant Mirror_, Barbara Tuchman discusses the French tournaments to some degree. While she doesn't explicitly state that peasants were not allowed, she does seem to imply that they were not present in significant numbers during the 14th century. From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Unusual Tournament Styles Date: 12 Dec 1995 15:34:35 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Greetings from Arval! Jason Thorne reported: > here in Tir Ysgithr we do a Dragons horde tourney, in which u have 6 > fighterr roped togethter to form a dragon and the only way to kill it is > to kill the head. I don't know of a period example of knights fighting while roped together; but the idea of six knights taking challenges against all comers, with special rules and complicated "victory conditions" is quite compatible with the elaborate passages of arms of the late 14th and 15th centuries. A medieval nobleman might have done it this way: He and five comrades would invite all comers to challenge the fury of the Dragon. The comers would find an elaborate set-up, in which they first face the Defenders of the Dragon, singly or in groups, who might be fancifully named and emblazoned with the limbs, tail, and head of the dragon. A comer who survives his combat with the Defenders of the Dragon win through to the Dragon itself, which might be hidden within a mock-up of a cave or castle. The comer might discover that the Dragon is actually a beautiful maiden, dressed in flame red clothing, who poses questions on courtly behavior. The knight who answers these questions properly has defeated the dragon by proving himself worthy both in combat and in court, and is rewarded with a rich prize. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:30:49 MST From: "Caley Woulfe" Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] (Fwd) St. Inglevert To: "Ansteorran List" -----Original Message----- From: Bryan S McDaniel To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: [TY] (Fwd) St. Inglevert >------- Forwarded message follows ------- >Date sent: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:26:22 -0500 >From: Finnvarr de Taahe >To: Middlebridge , Calontir , > Ealdormere list >Subject: [Mid] St. Inglevert > >For a few weeks now I've had an English translation of Froissart's >account of the St. Inglevert tournament on line: >http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/inglever.htm > >It's so long, though, that it's hard to get a handle on it, to really >appreciate the action. > >So I went through it and broke down the action into a table with a short >explanation, which is now at: >http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/analysis.htm > >Finnvarr >Feel free to cross-post. > >From: Finnvarr de Taahe >------- End of forwarded message ------- Subject: Re: ANST - Tournaments in the Middle Ages Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:28:07 -0500 From: "Walter Robin" To: This one's pretty cool...It's an English translation of "King Rene's Tournament Book" written c. 1460. http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html Ld Walter Robin, Scrimer http://plumes.org ----- Original Message ----- > Would someone be willing to share some of their favorite URL's that > have material about the time frames and weapons and particularly armor > styles that were in period during the time tournaments were held in the > Middle Ages? > > Valstarr Subject: RE: ANST - Tournaments in the Middle Ages Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:51:10 -0500 From: cchipman at nomadics.com (Carl Chipman) Organization: Nomadics, Inc. To: "'ansteorra at ansteorra.org'" Valstarr, definitely the place to start is the Chronique web site http://www.chronique.com Brian Price et al have done a LOT of work researching and documenting period tournament formats... Jean Paul Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Sir pendaran, how does this ransoming work?? Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:52:14 -0500 From: Chris Zakes To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org >Conor, > >Ransoms are a simple thing, really. When in tournament, should a knight best >another knight, he is entitled to take a trophy, say a sword apiece of armor >or even the bested knight's horse. If that knight who was defeated wishes >the return of his property he must pay a ransom, usually in cash. If he >does not do so, then his property is forfeited to the victor. > >As you are not a squire, Conor, I cannot give you these lessons for free. >Therefore, I shall consider the price of this lesson in chivalry to be the >return of my sword which my dear cousin Fritz did so kindly place into your >hands. > >Pendaran According to Alan Young's "Tudor and Jacobean Tournaments", it was customary in that period that *anything* that fell to the ground during the course of a joust or other mounted combat became the property of the herald. Young mentions one case where a knight was unhorsed and the herald claimed *him* as part of his "salvage rights". -Tivar Moondragon Edited by Mark S. Harris tornaments-msg Page 21 of 21