p-armor-msg - 11/8/01
Period armor. Referances.
NOTE: See also the files: helmets-msg, shields-msg, swords-msg, warfare-msg, weapons-msg, armor-msg, chainmail-msg, coat-of-plates-msg, tournaments-art.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: rvd at bunker.UUCP (Robert Del Favero Jr.)
Date: 23 Aug 90 14:53:22 GMT
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, CT
Cariadoc described a method of padding a helmet with horsehair, but
disclaimed any relation to period practice. In fact, his method
is not unlike one example I know of that's arguably period.
In the Trapp family armory in the castle at Cherbourg, Austria there is
a 14th century bascinet which retains a very old padding/suspension
system. Although its exact date is not known, it seems likely that
it's "the real thing" for helmet padding (at least Maestro Roberto
thinks so, and that's good enough for me). As I say, it's a sort of
padded suspension system consisting of four triangular pads filled with
horsehair (or foam if you don't have horsehair). One side of each pad
is attached around the circumference of the helmet and the points of
the triangles are joined with a drawstring that allows some
adjustment.
Here's a crude drawing of the suspension system laid out flat:
/\ /\ /\ /\
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \/ \/ \/ \
----------------------------------------
|<------ circumference of helm ----->|
The bases of the triangles are sewed to a leather strip riveted into
the helmet, and the tips are attached with the drawstring. They are
adjusted so that the pads form a suspension system keeping the head
away from the sides of the helm.
Maestro Roberto has padded several helmets this way, using canvas to
make the pads and filling them with shredded Ensolite foam (the
cream-colored sleeping pad foam). They work well for fighting, though
the marshalls sometimes look askance. Those of you who saw us in the
blanket merchant area at Pennsic (Gauntlets R Us) might have noticed
this system in use on a Spanish-style cabocet.
Vittorio del Fabbro
Myrkfaelinn in exile
East Kingdom
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company
rvd at clunker.uucp Shelton, Connecticut, USA
OR clunker!rvd at oliveb.atc.olivetti.com
From: N6852 U14
To: All
13-Nov-90 09:58pm
Subject: Historic Armor Cleaning
WWIVNET: Snafu Software [618-234-2631] - Node 6852
Name: Ted (Ice Breaker) Kocot
What do you think grooms and pages were for?
The methods of cleaning Medieval armor were many and varied. To polish
itthey used something not unlike our sandpaper. It would be a piece of cloth
orlight leather with a grit stuck to it with wax or some sort of glue like
therouge you put on a buffing wheel for going from that first stage of
convertinga satin finish to a mirrored one.
A technique I've heard for cleaning mail is to put it in a barrel
withsawdust, vinegar and a little sand, but I wouldn't try it with galvinized
wireor unrivited mail.
I have heard two methods for rustproofing that are suposidly period.
Onenvolves coating the piece in pitch. In tournements, the winner sometimes
goteveryone's armor and you'd have to buy back your BLACK MAIL (or so I'veheard). The other method is to rub the grease from salt pork onto your
armor.This causes rust to form, but rather than being a soft flaky rust it is
a harddense rust. I inadvertantly did this to a helm once (I still don't know
how)and it seems to work - it turned a bread crust brown and then never got
anyworse nor did it leave your hands rust covered after you handled it.
I've seen armor that was painted in museums, but I don't know if that was
practicle or just for decorative purposed.
I'd advise painting the inside with a good metal primer and spritzing
itdown with WD-40 every so often. "If they would have had it in the middle
ages,they would have used it!"
* Origin: "Heraldy at it's Finest" (WWIVnet Gate) (HST) (1:379/15.0)
Dafydd Ap Rhys
Leslie DeGroff
Re: Hoisting Into The Saddle!
21 May 91
To all the Gentles on the Rialto, Greetings
I have followed the discusion about armor weight with much
interest. I recently came upon a piece of data that might be of interest.
I was reading _The Battle of Bosworth_ by Michael Bennett when I
came across an illustration of a set of full armor, which is described in
the caption as "German gothic war harness for man and horse, of the last
quarter of the fifteenth century." The armor is the "traditional" walking
plate. It covers from head to toe, literal. The weight (of the man's
armor only) is given as "just over 59 lbs."
I have carried a 60 lb backback. I could move (and climb) quite
easily. If the weight had been as evenly distrubited as it would be with
armor, I could have gotten onto a horse ( except for the fact that I have
trouble mounting a horse without armor.)
Yours in Service
Dafydd ap Rhys
Source: _The Battle of Bosworth_ Michael Bennett; Alan Sutton Publishing,
Gloucester. (1985) ISBN 0-86299-053-X
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Everyone knows that the Saracens used light scimitars and the
crusaders used heavy broadswords. Actually, the curved sword does not
seem to have become common in the Middle East until about the 14th
century, well after the major crusades. As far as I can tell, both
sides used what we would call broadswords.
Caridoc
11 May 92
From: kenm at maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (...Jose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
In article <9205111325.AA20287 at emil.csd.uu.se> vader at emil.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
>
>Agreed. I have seen some authentic helms here, pig-faced bascinets
>and barrel helms. But most SCA helms are open-faced with grilles,
>which is necessary for safety, but makes them look like baseball
>implements.
Mine original reaction to grill-faced helms was the same... *but*,
I've since looked closely at paintings of medieval *tournament* armour
(14th, 15th centuries) and that's what they're wearing... helms with
broad mesh faces.... and *wooden* swords. Some of our armour that isn't
authentic combat armour is actually very close to authentic *tournament*
armour.
....Cinaed de Moravia
Lord Cinaed de Moray
In residence in the lands
of Byron, Baron Rising Waters,
under the Coronet of the Ealdormere,
in the Midrealm.
--
grilled helms
12 May 92
From: vader at emil.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet
Greetings from William de Corbie!
Cinead de Moray writes:
>Mine original reaction to grill-faced helms was the same... *but*,
>I've since looked closely at paintings of medieval *tournament* armour
>(14th, 15th centuries) and that's what they're wearing... helms with
>broad mesh faces.... and *wooden* swords. Some of our armour that isn't
>authentic combat armour is actually very close to authentic *tournament*
>armour.
I certainly am no expert on armor, but I have some nits to pick here:
In those late-period paintings I have seen, jousting knights occasionally
wear a kind of helm which appears to be round like a ball, with a visor
that shows vertical slits, sometimes reinforced with horizontal strips
of metal, somewhat remniscent of our grilles.
I am not saying that this was your purpose, Cinead, but as defense of
the authenticity of grilled SCA helms, this is poor.
a) Most SCA grilled helms are supposed to depict Celtic, Anglo-Saxon,
Norman or Viking open-faced helms from AD 600 - 1100. They have
nothing to do with late-period jousting armor. You cannot say "This
is an authentic 10th century helm with an authentic 15th century
grille, so the helm is authentic..."
b) The late-period grilled helms appear not to have the type of solid
bars seen on SCA helms, but rather strips of plate metal riveted
across a visor with sawed-out vertical slits. At least in the
paintings I have seen, which I may of course have misinterpreted...
c) The late-period grilled helms, if I am not mistaken, belong with
a very special type of jousting armor. In the renaissance, they
developed various types of armor that was reinforced to take the
hits of lances, some even had a metal shield fixed on the left
side of the breast, as part of the armor. I doubt whether those
suits were ever used in real combat, or on foot. Anyway, are those
the kind of tournaments we are depicting here? Methinks not.
I am certainly not out to ban grilles -- they are necessary for safety,
and they may even be period, though hardly typical of medieval armor.
My point in the original posting was that they don't look medieval,
they look like baseball helms (I know nothing about baseball, but
I remember seeing the guys who are supposed to catch the ball wearing
a grilled helm, or perhaps it was in American rugby (which you guys
erroneously call "football") that I saw these grilled thingies...)
Grumble grumble
William
grilled helms
13 May 92
From: mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
I've seen a rather tiny reproduction of a German altarpiece (? - not sure now,
but it was a pictorial representation) from about 1380 showing a bascinet
with grilled visor hinged from the top. The outline was similar to the
plate visor and not identical to the standard MidRealm grilled basicnet
visor, but it was not too far away. It was certainly unique. It did
appear to either use round or square bars, the picture could not
be interepreted clearly either way.
The great bascinet which appeared at about that time is often shown with
a barred visor, and was apparently often used in tourneys. Barred visors
were used in the club tourneys that started in the Middle Ages and continued
until fairly recently in Italy; I suppose one could argue that these helmets
represented an oral tradition.
--
Mike Squires (mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu) 812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
grilled helms
13 May 92
From: aryk at gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: University of Toronto
In article <1992May13.154644.8027 at pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>
>The stuff from Styria is all late and post-period, but there are helms
>with what I would consider face grills. Some of the helms set up this
>way aren't jousting gear. Interestingly--the bars aren't continuous
>in both directions, but consist of verticle bars with short extensions
>to either side. The net effect appears to be to limit the maximum
>size hole in front of the face. Again--I agree on the point about
>early-vs-late, and these are late.
Yes, Hal, those were not jousting gear. Burgeonets like the ones in the Graz
armoury exhibition were frequently made with barred faces. Sometimes they
were worn with bevors to cover the grill. These were certainly worn before
1600 by German heavy horse, including Schwarzreiter pistoleers. I have one
that is SCA-legal; and I've seen others. There are examples of period grilled
vizors; but if you are going to blow money on a helmet, it seems worthwhile
to make sure that you are getting a helmet with a vizor appropriate to the
helmet, and to the rest of your armour. Wearing my grilled-face burgeonet
with chain mail and a Norman surcote would be kinda pointless.
Aryk Nusbacher
P.S. The "Knight Shirts" they were selling were nifty, too.
Basket Faced Helms
15 May 92
From: bnostran at ds5000.crc.northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston MA. USA 02190
Gentles!
There have been several postings recently which assert that basket faced
helms are OOP and resemble the equipment worn by baseball catchers.
While it is true that the faces of these helms do resemble the masks
worn by baseball catchers, it is not true that this visage makes these
helms OOP. Helmets with similar face construction can be found in
the following illustrations:
15th c. illustration of a scene in Roman history portraying a
joust with axes (BL MS Harley 4375,f.171v)
15th c. illustration to Rene d'Anjou, Treatise on the form and
devising of a tournament (Bibliotheque Nationale
MS 2693 ff. 47v-48)
15th c. illustration of the dukes of Brittany and Bourbon
fighting with swords on horseback.
(ibid. MS 2693 ff.32v-33)
15th c. the king-at-arms about to start a tournament
(ibid. MS 2693 ff.62v-63)
15th c. the melee with swords
(ibid. MS 2692 f.67v-68)
Now, it is important to notice that the basket work depicted in these
illustrations appears to be made from bar stock instead of round stock.
However, I consider this to be a minor point. Also, I think that
flattening the bars of a basket faced helmet is within the technological
capabilities of most SCA armourers. (However, please understand that
I am not asserting that the use of round stock is OOP. Just that I do
not have documentation for it.)
A note to these wise, unless you can document when something was
invented, discovered or introduced or can in the case of art
document a countervening aesthetic, it is dangerous to boldly
claim that something is OOP.
Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Basket Faced Helms
15 May 92
From: shick at europa.asd.contel.COM (steve hick)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet
Greetings all,
One of the earliest fencing manuals of all, Fiori dei Liberi's Flos
Duellatorum, inludes illustrations of combat in armor which shows great
bascinets with barred visors. These are shown interchangably with visors with
very narrow occulariums which are very much as expected. These are obviously
intended for mortal combat, as is clearly shown in some of the figures.
Strykar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU
Subject: Horned Helmets
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1993 05:07:38 GMT
Just wanted to ruffle some feathers.
Someone had mentioned horned helmets, this received one or two responses
and no controversy. What is a Jew if not controversial?
Let's begin with early Celts -
A illustration dating nto 1st or 2nd century BCE found in "Greece and
Rome at War" by I forget Who, shows a Celtic military regiment aligned
and ready for battle. Helmets worn include the usual "boat sail " shape,
animal heads, full statues of animals, and horns (some of them real big!).
Continuing in Europe -
We come to 13th and 14th cent. CE in Germany and sometimes England where
great helms were decorated with horns made of tubes of soft leather. These
were often the length of a man's arm. (sorry I forgot the name of the book,
my aprentice is reading it. Dark Mage, if youre there, please post citation).
A little further afield -
India and Persia 15th - 18th cent. (may be earlier beggining and later end)
Helmets oft bear horns made of steel about the size of a man's hand.
Japan , starting 14th? cent.
One can find almost every sort of crest on a Japanese helmet, I've seen
bull horns.
The plains of America, end date late 19th. cent.
Buffalo horns were often worn on a war bonnet.
About the only rgroup who almost definitely did not wear horns are the
Vikings. My guess is that the horned helmet immage comes from the Nazi
operas (this is athematically accurate use of the word) of Wagner (cursed be
his memory and that of his descendants!) wherre the nationalist movement
attempted to link the Vikings to the Aryans of India (see comment on Indian
helmets above).
May the Everliving one hold you ever in the palm of His hand!
Nahum benGershom haZev of Kuzaristan <FNKLSHTN at acfcluster.nyu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Horned Helmets
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 22:06:10 GMT
In article <C57A8q.Htx at cmcl2.nyu.edu> fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU writes:
I think that horned helmets or crested helmets were worn in combat only when
the dominant weapon style was a thusting or thrown spear and swords were
used in a chopping motion rather than a horizontal motion.
>Let's begin with early Celts -
>A illustration dating nto 1st or 2nd century BCE found in "Greece and
>Rome at War" by I forget Who, shows a Celtic military regiment aligned
>and ready for battle. Helmets worn include the usual "boat sail " shape,
>animal heads, full statues of animals, and horns (some of them real big!).
True enough. However, some of the really fancy ones were worn by
chiefs who would be at the back of the formation, directing things. The
dominant weapon was the spear either thrown or weilded from chariot.
>We come to 13th and 14th cent. CE in Germany and sometimes England where
>great helms were decorated with horns made of tubes of soft leather. These
>