knife-throwing-msg - 5/11/00 Knife-throwing and throwing knives. NOTE: See also the files: swords-msg, knife-sheaths-msg, quarterstaff-msg, swordcare-msg, axes-msg, bladesmithing-msg, swordsmiths-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: jokke at nipsu.unda.fi (Jokke Kaksonen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Date: 17 Feb 1994 12:15:34 GMT Organization: Unda Oy - a Scitex Company I can't claim to be an expert in this area, but as of my own experience in the matter i have noticed the following. When you start practising knife throwing just let the blade slide from your hand. Don't add any rotation to the throw. By this technique you learn by trial and error the distances at which point the knife turns by its own weight. It's propably something like 3 meters for one spin and 6 for two spins. So if you throw the knife keeping it by the blade it's point will be pointing forward at 3, 6, etc meters. For distances between these, you got to adjust the throw by adding more rotation to it. I don't think that adding weight to the hilt helps in the spin, propably just the opposite. Throwing daggers are usually balanced so that the weight is more on the blade, at least the ones I have. In service of the Dream Celestinus mac Criohmthainn From Aarnimetsa Finland From: jokke at nipsu.unda.fi (Jokke Kaksonen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Date: 17 Feb 1994 12:35:07 GMT Organization: Unda Oy - a Scitex Company Oops just noticed an error that I wrote ******** THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SCA *********************** > It's propably something like 3 meters for one spin and 6 for two spins. So > if you throw the knife keeping it by the blade it's point will be pointing > forward at 3, 6, etc meters. For distances between these, you got to adjust > the throw by adding more rotation to it. The distances should be 3, 9, etc. At six meters you'll have the hilt pointing forward > ******** END OF NOTHING TO DO WITH SCA *************************** In service of the Dream Celestinus mac Criohmthainn From Aarnimetsa Finland Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: caradoc at indirect.com (John Groseclose) Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Organization: Internet Direct Inc (602)274-0100 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 19:41:59 GMT Jokke Kaksonen (jokke at nipsu.unda.fi) wrote: : > It's propably something like 3 meters for one spin and 6 for two spins. So : > if you throw the knife keeping it by the blade it's point will be pointing : > forward at 3, 6, etc meters. For distances between these, you got to adjust : > the throw by adding more rotation to it. : The distances should be 3, 9, etc. At six meters you'll have the hilt pointing : forward : > ******** END OF NOTHING TO DO WITH SCA *************************** Still nothing to do with the SCA, but you might try looking for two books on knife throwing: I don't have the titles handy, but the authors are Harry McEvoy and Blackie Collins. Both books can usually be found in the same "used" bookstores that I get most of my SCA-related research materials from. If you *do* get into knife throwing, don't discount the possibility of getting into axe throwing. . . A francisca, or Frankish throwing axe, can be a whole lotta fun! -- John D. Groseclose Use FINGER to obtain PGP public key block From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Date: 17 Feb 1994 23:25:32 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, I have also heard of the practice of tying a tail to the handle of a throwing knife to work like the feathers on an arrowand keep the point headed towards the target. However, you would do better to talk to the blackpowder groups since they practice knife and tomahawk throwing on a much more regular basis than the SCA does (at least in Western Washington). Fiacha haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: kdz at sae.com (Douglas Zimmerman) Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Organization: Template Software Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 18:39:41 GMT In college, a friend an I learned to throw knives, much to the dismay of local trees. Purely by trial and error, we learned of several differnt ways the throw knives. Since then, I have read about the 'right' way, which we almost had. The first way we learned was a straight throw, with no spinning at all. This only worked for distances up to 10 feet or so. Holding the knife by the handle, we threw with an arm motion similar to a baseball throw, keeping the knife at a constant angle, index finger along the edge, point slightly up. We were very careful to impart no spin. The knife travelled like a dart, point first. This was a very fast and powerful throw, and so long as the target was under 10 feet or so, distance was irrelevent. But beyond 10 feet, the minimal spin on the blade caused the point to get out of line, and the knife to hit other than point first. With more practice, we could have gotten the distance up somewhat. Then, we tried holding the blade with the finger along the (very dull) edge, and making it do half a flip to hit point first. This required finesse, not power, as it was very sensitive to exactly how much spin you put on it. While there was a certain 'sweet' distances where we hit easily (about 10'), we eventually learned to control the spin and hit targets at any distance from 5 to 15 feet. We practiced at distances above 15', which required holding the knife by the hilt, and imparting a full 360 degree flip to the blade. This was very frustrating, as there was much more room for error. But when we hit, it was pure pleasure. Since then, I have learned that professional throwers use a rather heavier knife than we did, and hold the grip rather like one would hold a hammer. They impart 1 or more full flips, and hit very reliably. However, they almost always limit themselves to less than 30', and for shows, always throw from a fixed distance. Since we spent only a few months doing this, we hardly reached the pinnacles of knife throwing skill. However, I could reliably (say, 80%) hit a tree at 15' or less point first, within, say, a 1 foot circle. More spectacularly, I could do this from a start facing away from the target with a turn and throw, even from a slow walk. In fact, the turn made the throw more powerful. At no point was the knife doing anything I would call 'spinning'. The knife flipped 1/2 or 1 turn over a distance of yards. The skill was adjusting the speed of the flip to the distance from the target. As for the actual throwing blades, they are flat, with no hilt or distinct handle - all one piece. The blade tends widen back an inch or so from the point, like a leaf, then slowly narrow to the hilt. They are definitely point heavy, and have no edge. Size varies; ours were cheapies perhaps 9 inches long overall, an inch and a half wide. Pros use blades a bit larger. We also played with throwing more conventional daggers (e.g. the ubiqitous British commando dagger). This was doable, by holding the knife at the very tip, and basically flipping it into the target. I still have fun flipping letter openers and pencils into things, like my office ceiling. Once you get the hang of judging how much flip to use, you can throw anything and have it hit point first. -- Douglas Zimmerman kdz at template.com uunet!template!kdz 703-318-1218 Template Software 13100 Worldgate Dr, Ste 340 Herndon, VA 22070-4382 From: cclaus at jupiter.willamette.EDU (Conrad Claus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: throwing knives Date: 17 Feb 1994 16:52:30 -0500 Organization: The Internet ADAM SHEIK wrote: >Subject: Throwing knives. Some answers please! > > Hmm... is this the >right newsgroup to post to? Oh well. Here goes: > I am researching the >mechanics of throwing knives for use in a story I am > writing. My >problems are how to make them realistic whilst reading. My own > theory is that the knife spins very fast when thrown with the weighting > toward the hilt. -- nope.. my experiance that the speed of spin on a knife has to do with the length of the knife, the total weight of the knife and the manner in which it was thrown. I do like throwing balanced stuff though. The weight distribution will affect how you throw the knife but I dont think it will imbalance the spin so that one side spends less time forward. > Does the blade even have > to spin at all? Usually yes. >Although try throwing something without it spinning - tricky. Tricky and hard to learn but possible, especially at close range. Not used alot though. Called a slide throw (among other things) > Does the distance of throwing matter? ALWAYS > What are the differences between normal daggers and throwing daggers? > Has anyone actually seen a throwing dagger? Well it depends what you are talking about. There are TONS of different types of throwing knives. Most of the professionals use a "knife" which most closely approximates a rod with the end sharpened. It is a knife without the edges sharpened. Folks who hunt with knives usually use something commonly called a "bowie-axe" (this is actually a model name as well) - it is a heavy sharp blade meant to deliver a stunning blow evn if it does not hit point first. In warfare, folks tended to use multi bladed/tipped weapons like throwing irons or shaken (sometimes called "throwing stars" or "ninja stars") or heavy things like axes, javelins, etc. > How confident do you reckon a person who had been practising a >long while would be of hitting a target point-first? Surely it wouldn't >be at all certain. Well, yes and no. Lotsa practice and they would be fairly sure. I have heard tell of a fella who even has a recorded kill of an antelope with a simple playing card. But (and this is a big but) any throwing wepaon cannot classify as a precision weapon. It takes years of practice to achieve a high degree of skill and even then mistakes happen. Have you read David Edding's 'the Belgariad'? Silk seems altogether > TOO good - although the books are a great read. Wanna see unrealistic knife throwing read Steven Brust's books in the Jehreg series...but the action is good and the way he presents knife throwing is fun to read. >I would appreciate ANY info about throwing daggers please. I > would have >posted this to the roleplaying games newsgroups but I fear they > would >draw comparisons with their characters in the game so it wouldn't > be as >helpful! I don't belong to the SCA so I wouldn't know if any of you > lot >hurl knives at each other *:} > > -- > Well - if you want to gain some usefull knowledge about knife and axe throwing a great source is the TRU-BAL knife company. The will be happy to send out some brief instructional materials to you for the asking I would think. Helpfull people and they produce a great product (throwing knives). ---- I will give you a short explanation of knife throwing however. Throwing normally, folks throw with their strong hand over head. Whether point or handle is held depenmds upon the balance of the knife (point heavy are thrown by holding the handle, there are some knives that are evenly balanced and can be thrown either way.) Usually with the off leg forward, the arm is drawn back and then brought down usually in a straight line. Making sure to follow through, the thrower releases the knife at a point where he/she thinks it should be released. The knife is supposed to spin when released. It will hopefully hit the target point first. There are many other ways to throw a knife, but that is the most common and perhaps the strongest. Some things to keep in mind: 1 - Throwing a knife involves total body commitment. It really is not something done while sitting down unless you are very good. 2 - The first stage of skill in knife throwing is being able to correctly Throw a knife the exact same way every time. As long as the same knife is used, the thrower will then have some parameters of when the knife is hitting point first. Say at 4, 8, 12, etc. feet away. Something to keep in mind is that as the distance increases, the distance for the knife to completely turn over usually decreases. This is usually not important to beginners as they are not throwing at distances where it matters. 3 - The second stage of skill is to be able to correctly judge the distance so that it does not have to be paced off every time. 4 - The Last stage is to learn all the variables that go into a throw so as to be able to modify them to decrease of increase the number of spins a weapons does before it hits a target. Example: thrower sees a target 4 1/2 complete spins away - thrower modifies throw so as to make the knife spin 4 or perhaps 5 times and hit the target point first. Grip, degree of body commitment, finger involvment, snap imparted, timing of release, etc. can go into this modification. A real capable thrower can make these modifications unconsciously and throw based on his judgement of the distance. Much of the time a weapon can be made to hit point first if it is thrown right. 5 - When folks arm themselves for war or hunting they usually want a throwing knife of axe that carries some punch. Light knives mostly dont cut it (no pun intended) as they not only will not penetrate armor or cause significant damage, but also, if you hit someone with a heavy weapon it generally has some effect regardless of point position. it might be intructional to take a close look at the heft and power of a good sized camp axe (hatchet). Hit someone unarmored with that point first in the body and they are likely a deader. Handle or butt first and they will likely go down from the impact. Hit someone in heavy armor and it still will possibly have some effect. You would have to be awfully good with a small throwing knife to have a hope of seriously stopping a grown man with it in a fight. (Rather gory information about knife wound statistics available upon request... 6 - In a fight a smart warrior would ALMOST NEVER throw his knife. A knife is almost always better used in your hand rather than thrown. Keep these situations in mind: In all situations A throws a knife at B A has 1 blade, B has 1 blade = A is now disarmed - B might be slightly bleeding and mad A has 1 blade, B has none = A has just armed B A has 2 blades, B has 1 = A had a huge advantage (two againt 1 is a big advantage) and A threw it away - possibly giving it to B A has 3 blades, B has 3 blades = ok - now A might have done the right thing by throwing See what I mean? Generally, in a non literary, RL sense, folks generally kept their knives for close in work. I am sure plenty of counter examples could be found, but I feel fairly safe in saying this in any case. I hope I have been of some help. Please feel free to email me if you have any questions or comments. If nobody else online is interested in this topic, I appolagize for wasting badwidth. Conrad From: sgs at access1.digex.net (Steve Smith) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Date: 21 Feb 1994 03:17:20 -0500 Organization: Agincourt Computing In article <2jtv5n$nnu at cc_sysk.coventry.ac.uk>, ADAM SHEIK wrote: > Hmm... is this the right newsgroup to post to? Oh well. Here goes: >I am researching the mechanics of throwing knives for use in a story I am >writing. My problems are how to make them realistic whilst reading. My own >theory is that the knife spins very fast when thrown with the weighting >toward the hilt. This would mean that the point spins round fast in comparison >to the lateral movement thereby ensuring that there is a greater probability >of hitting point first. Is this at all correct? Does the blade even have >to spin at all? Although try throwing something without it spinning - tricky. > Does the distance of throwing matter? ie: circus acts always throw >from the same distance. > What are the differences between normal daggers and throwing daggers? >Has anyone actually seen a throwing dagger? > How confident do you reckon a person who had been practising a long >while would be of hitting a target point-first? Surely it wouldn't be at all >certain. Have you read David Edding's 'the Belgariad'? Silk seems altogether >TOO good - although the books are a great read. > > So I would appreciate ANY info about throwing daggers please. I >would have posted this to the roleplaying games newsgroups but I fear they >would draw comparisons with their characters in the game so it wouldn't >be as helpful! I don't belong to the SCA so I wouldn't know if any of you >lot hurl knives at each other *:} I went through quite a knife throwing phase in high school. Some comments: 1. Set up a cardboard box full of newspapers somewhere that a stray knife won't hurt. Throw knives at it. (This is called "research" :-) For effectiveness, the heavier the better. Balance doesn't really matter, although it's a bit easier with the balance toward the blade. Hold the knife by the point and throw with your arm -- don't bend your wrist. The blade shouldn't be too sharp, for obvious reasons. The blade should turn over once in the air. 2. Virtually everything I've seen in fiction about knife throwing is nonsense. A thrown knife is a lousy weapon. Too light. Too slow. Not accurate enough. If you miss, you just announced your presence and gave your opponent a weapon. If you hit, unless you're very lucky, your opponent will be almost completely unhurt, but *really* mad. 3. Other things make better thrown weapons. Look up "franchesca". My own favorite was a WWI vintage bayonet, about 18" long and rather heavy. I could throw it through a redwood 4x4 post from a distance of ~20 ft. 4. The "throwing daggers" that I've seen for sale are utter trash. They have a heavy triangular blade and no separate hilt (although some have leather wrapping on the hilt area). They are stamped out of mild steel that you can bend with your fingers. I don't know what circus knife throwers use. Hope this helps. -- Etienne du Forgeron -- Steve Smith Agincourt Computing sgs at access.digex.net (301) 681 7395 "Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense." Organization: University of Maine System Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 17:57:30 EST From: Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Throwing knives. Some answers please! Just a few more things... Circus performers use the very same stamped metal "throwing daggers" critiqued in that there other article...they are nice in that they are mass produced and weighted pretty much identically to one another... you can throw a series of them consistently... Throwing knives aren't necessarily lousy weapons, and HAVE been used effectively by folks, but I agree that the knife-thrower of virtually all fiction is silly and unrealistic. Basically, a beefy, pointy piece of steel can be whipped just like a hatchet, and at close range (i.e. a half a spin, maybe a full one) could concievably be a reliable weapon (not by me, not yet, but probably by somebody) in a pinch. 'S worth practicing to some people. Marcellus Endewearde Subject: file on Knive-Throwing at Rialto Index Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 17:11:32 MST From: ChristianThiel at t-online.de (Christian Thiel) To: markh at risc I just found your collection of postings on the subject of knife-throwing. The quality of the articles varies widely, some are really good, some are simply false. It would perhaps be a good idea to include the addresses of two web-Sites that deal with knife-throwing quite expertly. http://www.crl.com/~mjr/thrower.html The folks here deal with thwowing weapons in general, but the main field of interest is knife-throwing. The site is text-oriented and has very detailed instructions. http://www.commonlogic.com/knife The StickingPoint - Site is more graphically oriented and has very good illustrations, excellent for beginners. The quality of the pages is not as good as at MJRs Site Christian Thiel Edited by Mark S. Harris knife-throwing-msg Page 9 of 9