helm-padding-msg - 8/28/10

Suggestions and recommendations on how to pad your helm for SCA combat. Descriptions of how helms were padded in period.

NOTE: See also the files: helmets-msg, armor-msg, gorgets-msg, p-armor-msg, shields-msg, SCAweapons-msg, rattan-msg, armorers-lst, armor-chklst-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From:    Halfdanr 
To:      All 
Date: 01-Aug-90 11:26am
Subject: Padding

For a truly period style of padding for your helm try horsehair. I have used
it for my Markland viking helmet which is used in re-enactment steel combat.
It works well and does not mat when wet. I prefer the shed out winter coat as
it is easy to obtain (in Spring) and is softer than the normal coat. Sift out
the dirt and rinse lightly, then sew pouches of deerskin to hold it (use
whatever pattern will work for your helmet) and make small balls of the hair.
Insert the hair until you build up enough of a pad and sew the pouch shut,
attach the rest of the completed pouches to each other and affix the whole to
your helmet. You can also use the hair to pad an arming cap which is worn on
your head and the helmet is placed over it (the padding is external to the
helm itself), This works just as well as padding affixed to your helm and
allows you to have several helms with one set of padding. Good luck and have
fun.


From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) 
Date: 23 Aug 90 03:37:26 GMT 
Organization: University of Chicago 

 Horsehair Padding:

I have also been using this in my helm for some years, with no
problems. I make cloth tubes, stuff them with horsehair, and glue
them vertically in the helmet. I do not think, incidentally, this
this was the period form of construction, but have not yet gotten
around to anything better.

I have also experimented with using human hair as padding (not in a
helm). It is very soft when put in, and has a tendency to come
through coarse cloth. After putting the padded garment through the
washing machine, the hair mats up into a very dense, springy mass.

David Friedman
DDFR at Midway.UChicago.Edu


From: harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Harold Kraus Jr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spun tops ringing...
Date: 25 Oct 1993 13:10:18 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University

The good Jessa wrote:
>Greetings, from Jessa!

>My lord Mitchell advises that you *glue* in the padding in your helmet.
>(Contact cement works well.)  This dampens the vibration of the metal.

I can't remember who I learned this from, Humpk or Pavel, but I recommend 
that the interior of the helm be duct taked first, then the padding glued 
to the tape.  This way, you don't need to use a chissle when it comes time
to replace the padding.

I find that welded seems encourage ringing while riveted seam inhibit
ringing.  I hot forged a peaked round top and welded it to a face and back
plate for a "seamless" great helm.  Just about everyone on site new when
I would catch a flat snap to the side of the head.  Gluing closed cell foam
reduced the sustain time of the ring but the impulse was just about as loud
as without padding (and painfull).  Enough open cell foam would probably 
work better especially if the interior of the open cell foam was in turn 
lined with leather, heavy canvas, or heavy closed cell foam.  Rather than
going to this trouble, I just used ear plugs, rubber or foam,  just a
twist of tissue paper worked fine for me.  BTW, I found that I realy only
needed to protect the ear facing my oponents primary sword arm, off hand
side shots did not seem to cause discomfort (then again, I may already 
be deaf on my right side. :)

Don't trust your hearing to just anyone, especially me.
Harald Isenross, Spinning Winds, Calontir, harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu  


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dlc at fc.hp.com (Dennis Clark)
Subject: Re: Spun tops ringing...
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 18:21:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Marla Lecin (0003900943 at mcimail.COM) wrote:
: Greetings, from Jessa!

: My lord Mitchell advises that you *glue* in the padding in your helmet.
: (Contact cement works well.)  This dampens the vibration of the metal.

  The best cement to use is RTV (you know, bath tub adhesive, smells like
vinegar.)  This stuff cares not about how porous the materials are and it is
flexible throughout its life so it won't crack or break off.

Kevin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dennis Clark  (303)229-4313   telnet 1-229-4313  email dlc at fc.hp.com       |
| Hewlett Packard ESD Perf. Lab, 3404 East Harmony Rd. Ft. Collins CO 80525  |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spun tops ringing...
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:06:12
Organization: University of Arkansas

dlc at fc.hp.com (Dennis Clark) writes:
>:Marla Lecin (0003900943 at mcimail.COM) wrote:
>: Greetings, from Jessa!

>: My lord Mitchell advises that you *glue* in the padding in your helmet.
>: (Contact cement works well.)  This dampens the vibration of the metal.

>  The best cement to use is RTV (you know, bath tub adhesive, smells like
>vinegar.)  This stuff cares not about how porous the materials are and it is
>flexible throughout its life so it won't crack or break off.

Me, I'm a hot glue man. If it comes unstuck you just heat the helm and 
reseat the padding. (It sort of self repairs during hot summer battles.)  
I also always put my padding in a cloth cover. that way I can build a very 
form fitting padding that I can take out re-shape and wash at will. (some of 
my closest friends think it the height of comedy to urinate in my helm.)

It also looks like a great weld when painted. (just don't let the marshals 
find out! Thank Otis I was the Earl Marshal when that happened. :) )

Pavel
Calontir


From: tjustus at sprynet.com  (T. Justus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Late Period Armor Padding (lengthy)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:56:04 GMT

On 21 Mar 1997 22:57:22 GMT, kymrii at aol.com (Kymrii) wrote:
>Could someone comment on late period armor paddong methods, and their
>effectiveness for SCA sport combat armor? So many people put so much time
>and money into period armor that it seems a shame to put it all over
>closed cell foam if there is an alternative.

  I assume that by late period you are refering to the 16th century,
in Europe. Unfortunately armor padding has been neglected by the
professional armor scholars-- I asked David Edge (curator of the
Wallace Collection) about this specifically, and that was the response
I got. Someone can make him-or-herself THE expert pretty easily.... a
surprising amount has survived.

  I  have examined a couple of 16th/17th c helmet paddings. (A cabacet
and a burgonet.) Both were made of quilted linen with tow stuffing.
The linings were stitched to a leather band rivited on the inside of
the helmet, and laced together at the top of the crown. This creates a
suspension system akin to those in modern football and military
helmets. Such a padding would be too thin for SCA-style high impact
fighting. It is fairly simple to cover a closed cell foam pad with
fabric, however, and (I'm told) makes it much more comfortable to
wear. The padding can be laced to an interior leather band, but if the
helmet is snug enough friction will keep it in place.  Experiment with
lacing the crown together-- I have heard complaints that it does the
job too well and makes blow acknowledgement very difficult. 
  As for padding the body armor, the high quality pieces in the 16th c
were often padded throughout, both to absorb shock and sound and to
protect the elegant gilding and etching from being scraped by adjacent
pieces, such as pauldrons. (besides, red leather picadils look SO
refined, especially against blued steel...)  It was not as common to
pad the harness as you go down the social ladder. I won't say it was
never done,  but I'd say it was quite rare for the common soldier to
have padding anywhere on his armor (except the helmet). He wore the
padding on his body, in the form of a padded doublet of cloth or
leather.  

<snip of comments on other pieces of armor - see armor-msg>

Tracy (not Tom) Justus known as Clare de Crecy


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Bruce.sinclair at agresearch.co.nz (Bruce Sinclair)
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:11:34 GMT

John Edgerton <sirjon1 at pacbell.net> wrote:
:My old helm needs to be repadded. Does anyone have suggestions on the
:best materials for padding that will both hold up well and absorb the
:impact?

Try closed cell foam. Great stuff :)

Bruce


From: "Lee Hoermann" <lordheldo at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:58:54 GMT

Also, try computer wrist pads.. .free almost anywhere.
Ld Heldo aus Visselhoevede
Ansteorra


From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:34:22 GMT

John Edgerton <sirjon1 at pacbell.net> wrote:
> My old helm needs to be repadded. Does anyone have suggestions on the
> best materials for padding that will both hold up well and absorb the
> impact?
> 
> Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, West

Horsehair padding is what I have been using for many years. There's even 
a pamphlet someone else did that gives a period design for using it 
(mine is just tubes run vertically).
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html


Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:15:53 -0600
From: Michael <michael at shreve.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?

I like to use tub blocks from the toy store. Just contact cement them in.
I also use the black insulation foam. A big roll is like $20.

Max


From: medievalbk at aol.com (Medievalbk)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 23 Jan 2002 06:45:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Helm padding?

>I like to use tub blocks from the toy store. Just contact cement them in.
>I also use the black insulation foam. A big roll is like $20.

You forgot to mention glue in, THEN WAIT A DAY!

We don't need another fighter collapsing before they even get to the field.

Never used glue myself....

Sleeping bag 1/2 inch closed cell foam in three pieces: wrap, top, and
forehead. Add  three soft foam ducttaped pads to the sides, and as needed to
the other pieces. Pin prick the pads over the ears. Tape the forehead strip to
the wrapper. Run the chinstrap from behind the ear through the closed cell.
Squeeze the top into place. Padding will now stay in place without glue. Wear a
thin painter's smock to both squeeze into the helmet and to absorb sweat. Helm
will not rock or rotate.

Aten loved polearm face thrusts long before  the Middle went to chinstraps.

Vilyehm the Merchant


From: db <deadmonk at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:23:38 -0800
Organization: Applied Theory Communications, Inc.

Another period solution is felted sheep hide.
db


From: "Jim Grunst" <scadragon at juno.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:50:28 +0000 (UTC)

Take a martial arts head protector, carve down the foam a bit.
I believe this was the best I've ever seen.

Or, use a combination of closed cell/ open cell foam, in layers.

                                 zack


From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Organization: dis
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:08:08 GMT

RJ Bachner <ragiwarmbear at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Horsehair padding is what I have been using for many years. There's even 
> >a pamphlet someone else did that gives a period design for using it 
> >(mine is just tubes run vertically).
> 
> My concern is primarily with heat retention and sweat, would the horse hair 
> provide any improvement
> in this way? and where would one get one without asking a horse? 

I think I find it more comfortable than foam.

Ask someone who has a horse.

It can also be bought from supplies for native American stuff, but I 
haven't done that and don't know much about it.

Or find an old horsehair mattress being sold or thrown out, which is how 
I started.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html


Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:25:08 -0600
From: David Hughes <davidjhughes.tx at netzero.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?

Henry Vanderbilt wrote:
> I'd love to find a source of the type of foam they use for karate/
> kickboxer headgear, though - the stuff has a really good mix of stiff
> to sudden impacts but soft to slow pressure that, I think, would make
> a helm lined with it both comfortable and protective.  Anyone know
> where the stuff comes from or what it's called?
> 
>    Harry

ECA Foam (Ethylene Chloride Acetate)  Also used in Water skiing
floatation vests.
Check a good uphosterly supply house, or an industrial supply house
that carries neoprene sponge/foam.

I've got about 20 square feet of 1" thick ECA leftover for my last set
of projects <G>

David Gallowglass
Stargate, Ansteorra


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Bruce.sinclair at agresearch.co.notreally_nz (Bruce Sinclair)
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:43:46 GMT

stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous) wrote:
:Ragi asked:
:> >Horsehair padding is what I have been using for many years. There's even 
:> >a pamphlet someone else did that gives a period design for using it 
:> >(mine is just tubes run vertically).
:> 
:> My concern is primarily with heat retention and sweat, would the horse
:hair provide any improvement
:> in this way? and where would one get one without asking a horse? 
:
:Well, it would almost have to be better than closed cell foam
:as far as heat retention and sweat. Closed cell foam doesn't
:absorb sweat and it is a wonderful insulation. That is one
:reason it is used for backpacking sleeping pads.

True ... an inner lining of toweling or other cloth works wonders for the 
sweat (and if you make it removable you can wash it too :) ) ... but it sure 
is hot :)

Bruce


From: nh0g at andrew.cmu.edu (Nils K. Hammer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: 28 Jan 2002 10:04:20 -0800

I didn't write the _article_ on helm padding, but I did post a little
note here some time ago about what I saw in the Graz Landeszeughaus
on a trip w. Master John and Sir Reinhardt.

Some of these late period helms were hanging up where we could see the
linings. Most of the other thousands of them were piled around where it
was hard to see inside. 

The linings were probabaly linen, a white fabric quilted in two layers.
Some had worn open and white horsehair was sticking out. To make an
approximate pattern, take 24" x 8" rectangle. On the top edge cut down
4 scallop-lobes. Near the top of each lobe put a grommet or button hole.
Stitch the rectangle sides together to make a tube. Put a lacing through
the 4 grommet holes. This is to adjust the helmet height by tightening or
loosing. On the one example I got a very good look at, the lower edge
had been rivetted onto the helmet. I didn't like this because it means
you don't have an adjustable hatband, which I consider important for a
good grip on the head. This helmet would wobble if you didn't ALWAYS 
have the chin strap well fastened. (like my SCA helmet).

Nils K. Hammer



From: sirparlan at msn.com (Robert Gleason)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: 28 Jan 2002 18:00:24 -0800

herveus at Radix.Net (Michael Houghton) wrote
> Nils K. Hammer <nh0g at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >The linings were probabaly linen, a white fabric quilted in two layers.
> >Some had worn open and white horsehair was sticking out. To make an
> >approximate pattern, take 24" x 8" rectangle. On the top edge cut down
> >4 scallop-lobes. Near the top of each lobe put a grommet or button hole.
> >Stitch the rectangle sides together to make a tube. Put a lacing through
> >the 4 grommet holes. This is to adjust the helmet height by tightening or
> >loosing. On the one example I got a very good look at, the lower edge
> >had been rivetted onto the helmet. I didn't like this because it means
> >you don't have an adjustable hatband, which I consider important for a
> >good grip on the head. This helmet would wobble if you didn't ALWAYS 
> >have the chin strap well fastened. (like my SCA helmet).
> >
> I'm having a bit of difficulty visualizing this; I'm running out of edges.
> 
> Correct my visualization, please:
> 
> I see you describing a tube that encircles the head with four flaps that
> get laced together at the top of the head. The scallop lobes get cut into
> one of the 24 inch sides, and the other long side gets rolled up and stitched
> at the base of the lobes? Lame ASCII art would probably suffice for this
> purpose...
> 
> Herveus

The helm padding is channel quilted linen or wool stuffed with
horsehair (mane and tail). Stitched in arounde the outside of the help
and a gather in the top.

Wicks sweat, stays cool.

It is in Brian Price's (Brion Thornbird) "Techniques of Medieval
Armour Reproduction" available at http://www.chronique.com click on
the link "Chivalry Bookshelf".


From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Helm padding?
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 04:03:24 GMT

sirparlan at msn.com (Robert Gleason) wrote:
> It is in Brian Price's (Brion Thornbird) "Techniques of Medieval
> Armour Reproduction" available at http://www.chronique.com click on
> the link "Chivalry Bookshelf".

Brian is, if I remember correctly, the coauthor of the pamphlet on 
period helm padding that I mentioned.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html


From: Robin Lindsey <moiranliam at earthlink.net>
Date: September 11, 2005 5:13:36 PM CDT
To: ansteorra <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Period Helm Liner

For those of you who need this link:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm

Moira


From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.nopsam.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sources of horsehair
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:13:08 -0800

"Ewan (Carolingia, EK)" <admin.westernesse at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to pad my helm with something other than closed-cell foam, and a
> quilted horsehair-padded coif is something I'd like to experiment with.
> 
> I seem to recall that Duke Cariadoc has attempted such a thing in the
> past.  Your Grace, where did you obtain your horsehair from? Would one
> need mane/tail hair exclusively, or would the lighter fibers from grooming
> work?

I still use the helm I padded with horsehair and have been happy with 
it. As best I recall, I got my original supply from an old horsehair 
sofa someone was throwing away and later got fresher horsehair from a 
friend who kept horses. I think some of what she gave me was from 
grooming, but it was quite a long time ago and I'm not sure.

My padding consists of cloth tubes stuffed with horsehair run vertically 
up the sides of the helmet; I think I also have a long tube horizontally 
at about my forehead level. But there is a pamphlet somewhere describing 
a much better version, based on an actual surviving helm padding. My 
memory is that the "tubes" in that one are elongated triangles sewed 
together along the bottom half of the long sides, and that the tips have 
holes, perhaps grommets, with a thong going through them. It works as a 
suspension helm--tighten the thong and the helm rides higher.

I don't have a source for the pamphlet; hopefully someone else can offer 
more detailed information.
-- 
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sources of horsehair
From: mikes at familysquires.net (Michael L. Squires)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:15:51 -0600

David Friedman  <ddfr at daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> "Ewan (Carolingia, EK)" <admin.westernesse at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to pad my helm with something other than closed-cell foam, and a
>> quilted horsehair-padded coif is something I'd like to experiment with.
>
>I don't have a source for the pamphlet; hopefully someone else can offer 
>more detailed information.

I have a morion made by Robert MacPherson that uses a material sold for
repairing Victorian sofas - horsehair held in a foam rubber matrix.  The
triangles are sewn to leather strip riveted to the inner bottom of the
helmet, and each triangle has a grommet at the top where a thong passes
through to allow height adjustment.

I've only used the morion for marshalling but it's protected me the few 
times I've been hit on head (Pennsic).

I can look at it more closely if you wish.

Alan Culross
(mikes at siralan.org)


From: "Dave W" <wiselaw at comcast.net>
Date: January 11, 2010 10:45:49 AM CST
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Helm strapping

If the helm is pivoting at all, then the padding needs to be adjusted to
take up the voids currently in place.  When padding a helm, the less the
chin strap has to do, the better off you are.  Play with the padding a bit
till the helm fits snugly without using the chin strap at all, then add the
strap as a safety measure.  If you can't get the helm to fit snugly after
adjusting the padding, you may just have to start with a better fitting helm...

As for the padding, I usually go with a liner made out of linen laid into
the helm.  It is made of two layers of linen sewn together to form tubes,
which are then stuffed with cotton batting.  By adjusting the level of
stuffing you can shape it.  For most helms, the top will be pie shaped
wedges to fill in the top curves.

Alexis

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces+wiselaw=comcast.net at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces+wiselaw=comcast.net at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf
Of Chris Lucas

Good morning. I have come to all of you to seek help. In the past I have
helped 8 or 9 folks strap their helm  based on a four point over under/chin
cup strapping system with success, a system i've used for years and still use.
However  I have run across  a guy with an odd shaped melon and it doesn't
work. We worked for nine and a half hours and it still pivots up and back
to a  point that is illegal.  It does not pivot forward and the forward strap
keeps the front to back sitting well, because of the shape of his head Njord
says that even his army helmet does the same thing and rides back on his
forehead .we have set it down for now and am asking for advice. We've tried
buckle straps with different tensions and lengths as well as different tie
straps and all to no avail.  So if anyone has an idea or option please let
me know.

Warder Kristoff Fugger von Augsburg


From: Chris Lucas <chrislucas2504 at yahoo.com>
Date: January 11, 2010 10:50:53 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Helm strapping

<<< Type of helm? sounds like a padding issue to me.

EdV >>>

Ashcraft baker spangen helm.  Padding balances well and padding alone keeps it from rocking side to side and front to back on a push. It still will rise and then pivot when the helm rises too much and head gets unseated from padding. I've test hit it at about a five and the padding works well. I'm afraid though that even with a drape that a shot width wise under and across or a well placed thrust that ot will rise or be pushed up and will pivot to allow the front of the chin at the lower apex to be struck thus the illegal part..  I will try to get the camera set so I can put out photos of it.

Kristpff


From: Brandon McDermott <brandonsmcd at yahoo.com>
Date: January 11, 2010 11:09:18 AM CST
To: " Inc.Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Helm strapping

I have to agree with other posts... I think it is a padding issue.

My chinstrap is a set of "Y"'s with an oval cut out on the middle for the chin to rest in. The upper point of the "Y" should be between where the top of the ear meets the head and the temple. The lower "Y" should be behind the ear at the base of the skull just below the "Bumps" (In line w/ the bottom of the jaw).

Sir Lochlan Dunn


From: Jean Paul de Sens <jeanpauldesens at gmail.com>
Date: January 11, 2010 12:52:15 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Helm strapping

Alexis and Lochlann both have the right of it.  A thing I will add is that
helms can rock, and rock safely.  My salada does rock when hit, but never
touches my nose or the side of my head.  The only padding I have is up in
the crown area, where it's roughly two football shaped pieces of padding.
The chin strap is a single, and instead of being above and below the ear,
lies on a line between my chin and the opening of the ear canal.  That
vector gives good resistants to inward (thrusts) and upward movements.

JP


From: "jan_downs at netzero.net" <jan_downs at netzero.net>
Date: August 7, 2010 12:01:43 AM CDT
To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Open Shop

For helm lining attachment that is quick, easy and next to permanent, I use heavy duty double sided carpet tape. It works really really well.

Martel

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	helm-padding-msg	12