firearms-msg - 11/27/05 Early firearms and cannon. Reproductions. NOTE: See also these files: siege-engines-msg, p-handgonnes-lnks, warfare-msg, wounds-msg, blackpowder-msg, casting-msg, metals-msg, metalworking-msg, pottery-wepns-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Ioseph of Locksley To: Simon Date: 26-Nov-89 12:54am Subject: Re: creation vs re-creation S<>Hokay, it's time for Simon to show how Simple he is again! S<> S<>What exactly are the differences between wheellocks, matchlocks, S<>and flintlocks? (No, you needn't explain padlocks, fetlocks, S<>or sidelocks.) And what in the name of choice> is farbeling? Ah, yes.... Serpentine lock: a hand-gonne touched off by a slow-match held in the hand or in a linstock (a length of wood or metal to hold the burning saltpeter-soaked rope (slow-match). Matchlock: a mechanical arrangement to lower the slow match into the pan (the little doo-dad at the side of the barrel that primes the main charge) with a trigger Snapping-matchlock: the match is lowered by a spring arrangement, quickly. Wheellock: Look at a common Zippo lighter. Works the same way, only the rotation of the wheel is caused by a spring which must be wound by hand for each shot. VERY fast ignition of the priming powder. Dog-lock: predecessor to flintlock (see below) Found commonly on Highland pistols pre-1745. Flintlock: A hammer holding a piece of flint is actuated by a spring, the flint strikes the cover of the priming pan, thus releasing sparks which ignite the priming charge. Used by 1601, incidentally! This has the advantange over the wheel lock in that it is cheaply manufactured, has less moving parts and thus does not foul as badly (black powder leaves an INCREDIBLE mess), and has no winding-wrench to lose. It's advantage over the match-lock is simply that there is no glowing match to give you away in the dark or to get rained on..... BTW: breech-loading firearms are QUITE period.....!!!! --- * Origin: (Opus 1:114/29) From: Ioseph of Locksley To: All Date: 26-Nov-89 01:09am Subject: Period firearms I need to say something here.....I tend to assume that everyone was raised as I was, around all types of firearms/edged weapons, and thus knows the RULES about such.....Simon's message back there a ways kindof jogged my memory... Period firearms use BLACK POWDER. This is NOT the same as modern smokeless powder. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN A BLACK POWDER WEAPON. It will blow up in your face. Black powder is inherently unstable. DO NOT SMOKE, DO NOT USE MIND/MOOD/JUDGEMENT ALTERING CHEMICALS AROUND IT, DO NOT LET IT GET INTO THE HANDS OF FOOLS AND IDIOTS! It does not burn, in an unconfined space, slowly like modern smokeless powder does, IT ALL GOES AT ONCE! DON'T * PLAY * WITH IT. It WILL kill you, DEAD! And, for Deity's sake, boys and girls, CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS! Some jurisdictions put black powder firearms on the same level with machineguns and double-edged daggers! --- * Origin: (Opus 1:114/29) Ramrods & Re-enactment Date: 16 Jun 92 From: aryk at gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House Some of us are trying to arrange with the autocrat to have a firing demo of pre-1600 black powder arms at Pennsic, so I think it's worth having a brief discussion about what pre-1600 (and pre-1650) manuals call the scouring stick. The scouring stick is meant to push the charge and the ball down the barrel of a muzzle-loading firearm. It is also designed to hold attachments for cleaning the firearm, and for clearing misfired charges. Before the mid- 18th century, military munition scouring sticks were wood, sometimes with a metal head. Some English Civil War groups have introduced for safety purposes a seperate evolution in the firing drill: "secure your scouring stick", to ensure that they are not inadvertently left in a barrel and fired downrange. Groups which do later period re-enactment generally have more people on the field, and frequently fire massed volleys at other bodies of troops. In order to ensure that their ramrods are not fired into the other bodies of troops (or into the other troops' bodies), the ramrods are not brought onto the field at all, except when firing is done over an empty field. A muzzle-loading piece can be fired without the charge being rammed with a stick. It involves a rapid-fire drill in which the entire musket is rapped smartly against the ground once to settle the powder, and once again to knock the ball down against the charge. I believe this comes from an early 17th century manual, but I don't know which. As long as the ball is small enough, it need not be rammed with a stick. Of course, the greater the windage between the ball and the barrel, the less accurate the piece will be, and the musket- and caliver-men of the sixteenth century were still picking their targets rather than counting on volume of fire. Anyone interested in pre-1600 black powder should inquire at the Borough of Southwark Trayned Bandes camp (Elizabethan Camp) at Pennsic, or ask by email. Aryk Nusbacher From: torin.ironbrow at sfnet.COM Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: MUSKETS Date: 14 Apr 1994 16:55:46 -0400 Organization: SF NET San Francisco's Coffee House Connection I would like to point out that a swordmaker friend of mine living in Atenveldt (Faris of Falcon Arms) has made a black powder paintball matchlock. You have to be very careful about your powder charge or your paintball will disintergrate in the barrel. He used about a (WARNING WARNING: What follows is from memory and may be WRONG!) 10 grain charge. In Service Torin Ironbrow From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: measurements Date: Mon, 09 May 1994 09:02 Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA) In article <2qd665$86o at nntp.hut.fi>, hagen at delta.hut.fi (T. Viljanen) writes: {deletia} n) writes: >Practical, isn't it ? :-) Only the practice of announcing the calibre of guns >in means of weight is about as useful (the old British means of measuring the >caliber of guns was to announce it as the weight of an iron sphere, which >diameter was the same as that of the gun: therefore, a 42-lb gun did not >necessarily shoot 42 lb balls, but its bore was the same as the diameter of >an iron sphere of 42 lb in weight). ;-) {deletia} > >Alfonso Henriques de Montoya, MKA Tuomas Viljanen >-- >** Tuomas Viljanen Well, not to put too fine a point on it, the bore and the caliber of an artillery piece are different, but related measurements, and I believe this held true in period as well. As a modern example, a naval gun (say on a destroyer) might be referred to as "5-inch, 38 caliber"; this means that the inside diameter of the bore is five inches, and that the bore is 38 bore-diameters (190 inches) in length. Counterexamples desired. -- Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: steam engine Summary: they had the technology Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:05 GMT In article <5125 at beacon.rain.com> Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes: >As James Burke has so often pointed out in "Connections", many ideas are >tinkered with off and on for centuries until some much-needed technology >(such as consistant metalurgy for decent boilers, and the technology to >make a relatively air tight piston-to-cylinder fit, in this case) catches >up to the imaginations of humanity. One of the (main deck?) guns on the Mary Rose, sunk 1545 and raised in 1981, was a breech-loader made of a single sheet of wrought iron forged around a mandrel using a large trip-hammer and forge-welded into a cylinder. When discovered it was thought to be one of the standard iron guns forged out of bundles of iron rods, but X-rays showed the true structure. Iron was delivered to the gunworks in "blooms" which had to first be forged into a sheet or rod before being forged into a cannon. Later in the century the English figured out how to cast iron into large cannons with a fairly small risk of explosion. The casting process required the bore be drilled out after casting. Muzzle-loaders replaced breech-loaders as gunpowder got much better during the late 16th century and gunnery tactics moved towards longer ranges and the breech-loaders couldn't contain the gas pressure. Piston seals were made of leather into the late 19th century. The main problem for a 20th century engineer caught in 16th century England would be (1) the boiler (2) something useful to do with the engine. Steam engines came into common use in England and Wales to pump out mines which had been mined so deeply that water was filling up the diggings, and horse/ox/man power was insufficient to pump out the water. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Wheel Locks Date: 3 Jun 1994 13:41:31 -0400 Organization: the internet Sean Paxton asks about Wheel Lock pistols and or muskets. Have you tried the Tower of London? It is my impresseion that there are several of these devices there. Also, does anyone know if the Catalogue of the Tower of London Armories is available on the WWW? This would be a great source of information. From: STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wheellock Pistols/Muskets Date: Sun, 05 Jun 94 20:40:41 EDT Organization: Temple University In article <2snclu$6r0 at search01.news.aol.com> tommyboyd at aol.com (Tommy Boyd) writes: >Does anyone know of a source for period Wheellock Pistols and/or >Muskets? > >Must be functional. I don't know if they have complete weapons, but Dixie Gun Works carries (or did the last time I checked) an excellent wheellock mechanism. It Lp} might be worth your while to attempt to assemble the firearm you desire from components. Dixie's address is: Dixie Gun Works Gunpowder Lane P.O. Box 130 Union City, TN 38261 Good luck! Lord Cyrillion de la Izquierdo Lado formerly of the Barony of Grey Niche Kingdom of Meridies MKA Stewart Riley Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: Wheel Locks Organization: Indiana University Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 21:16:18 GMT In article johnric at saturn.wwc.edu (RICHARD ALLAN JOHNSON) writes: >In article <9406031738.AA00764 at hal.physics.wayne.edu> corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) writes: >>From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) >>Subject: Wheel Locks >>Date: 3 Jun 1994 13:41:31 -0400 >> >>Sean Paxton asks about Wheel Lock pistols and or muskets. Naval Arms made a wheel lock pistol which would work for a few times before it broke, or so people who bought them told me. It is possible to use it to make a practical wheellock but the one person who has done so had to make a new chain and a few of the other parts (they were too weak and broke quickly). Naval Arms has stopped making it, apparently. I would visit those huge gun shows and look; it is likely that a reproduction wheellock will show up. There was an article in one of the Midrealm's regional science newsletters (Illinois?) some years ago about how to make a 16th century gun using a commercial wheellock. Someone from Wurm Wald will no doubt remember. What I want to see the the six-barreled pepperbox that Lorenzo de Medici owned, and how they kept the whole thing from blowing up in his face. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: FORE! (was: Wheel Locks) Date: 3 Jun 1994 23:18:45 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry Dixie Gun Works sells a servicable wheellock. It's very plain, but seems well made. Mine hasn't broken in 4 years of low to moderate service. There was a fellow at Southern California Renn Faire who was selling very ornate wheellocks.. hey, since Faire is still going on (this is the last weekend), perhaps you could call them and find out who it is. On a slightly different note, finaly finished my "golf ball cannon". It's a reproduction of a German 1450's peice that fires golf balls... I got tired of firing 3 pound lead balls from the falconette... between the cost of the lead and the cost of the powder, and the problem of moving a 2/3 ton cannon around, I decided I needed something cheaper and easier to move. THis one is nice.. total weight is probably a little under 300 to 400 pounds, and disassembles into 4 cumbersome peices. Carriage made out of oak 4 x 6's, which gives it some "authority". Possible to sling in the back of my truck. The ammo is cheap; used golf balls can be had for $0.08 each in quantity, and the amount of powder is measured in hundreds of grains (rather than hundreds of grams). Took it out last weeked and shot it at targets at a distance of about 100 to 300 yards. Hard to hit things smaller than refrigerator boxes at 300 yards, but we dented and knocked holes in a freon can at 150 yards. At first I was a little dissappointed in the fact that the can was only dented the first time we hit it, but as I stood there and contemplated the fact that the internal volume had been reduced by ~33%, I realized that it would severely hinder any fighter unlucky enough to receive such a ding in his helm or breast plate. What was more impressive was the damage done by ~1 pound of 00 buckshot at 100 yards. The can looked like an economy sized strainer. I guess that makes it inappropriate for use in melees? Oh darn. You guys never let us late period artillary types have fun. Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: wew at nuxi. (Bill Wilson) Subject: Re: No Black Powder at SCA, ever? Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ, USA Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 21:53:14 GMT Tom Perigrin (tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu) wrote: : There have been several of us considering hosting an Atenveldt and Caid : artillery and small arms event... all period black powder weapons, no : flint locks, etc.. Does this mean that we couldn't do it as an official Just to let you know, various early flintlocks came out as early as 1550-1570. I have listings for miquelets and snaphaunces dating back this early. As a note I am forming a musketeer company in Atenveldt. We will also have pikemen. To date we have two matchlock muskets and my personal one will be done by the Aten-Outlands War where we will give a matchlock salute to start the war. Anyone interested in matchlock parts can send me a note and I'll share my findings. -------------------------------------------------------------------- William E Wilson (wew at sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson at nauvax) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: wew at nuxi. (Bill Wilson) Subject: Re: Wheellock Pistols/Muskets Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ, USA Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 22:02:57 GMT STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU wrote: : I don't know if they have complete weapons, but Dixie Gun Works carries : (or did the last time I checked) an excellent wheellock mechanism. It Lp} : might be worth your while to attempt to assemble the firearm you desire : from components. Dixie's address is: Dixie doesn't carry the lock anymore. Their latest catalogue doesn't show it and when I had the money to buy one they had run out of stock. I'm currently checking on some leads for lock sets, including snaphaunce and miquelet. -------------------------------------------------------------------- William E Wilson (wew at sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson at nauvax) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: wew at nuxi. (Bill Wilson) Subject: Re: Wheel Locks Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ, USA Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 22:00:21 GMT michael squires (mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote: : Naval Arms made a wheel lock pistol which would work for a few times before I don't think that they produce the arm anymore. : I would visit those huge gun shows and look; it is likely that a reproduction : wheellock will show up. Schroeter from California sells German and Italian wheellock kits. They aren't bad. A friend of mine has one. I can also get plans for a simple wheellock (includes plans for other types of pistols) for around $10. I'll try my had at fashioning one as soon as I have the time. I may also have a line on wheellock parts sets. I am currently writing a manual on how to make a matchlock musket. I hope to have it done by September. -------------------------------------------------------------------- William E Wilson (wew at sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson at nauvax) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 From: gpetrola at prairienet.org (Gregory Petrolati) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wheellock Pistols/Muskets Date: 8 Jun 1994 22:05:25 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Gentles, I believe the wheellock mechanism in question was manufactured by Navy Arms of New Jersey (I haven't their address) They produce many other black powder weapons and do advertise in various relative publications. They purchased the lock mechanism from someone in Italy, I believe. The lock in question I have worked with. I built a dragon that incorporated the lock. My experience with the lock was that it was as reliable as similar locks of its type (that means at best so-so). The main design flaw in this particular lock was that the eccentric cam that connected the spring to the wheel, over the course of repeted use would shear through the connecting link. When this occured to my lock it had to be repared by a professional who fixed the design flaw. If you are unable to obtain the lock from either Navy Arms or it's manufacturer. You mioght try advertising in blackpowder gun magazines for BROKEN WEAPONS that may be gathering dust in someone's collection... When ths lock works, it's thrilling... the ignition time is much shorter than that of the flintlock since, the spark is made IN the pan rather than falling from the frizzen to the pan (nearly as fast as percussion). Another word of advice... when you get your weapon built, use Steel Match instead of the more period pyrites or, youmay find yourself winding the lock all day and firing it rarely. Your servant, sir Gregory von Lucida, Baron Bhakaill (ret.) -- Greg Petrolati gpetrola at firefly.prairienet.org 1962 TR4 From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Wheellocks & matchlocks: whee Date: 10 Jun 1994 17:23:57 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Inc. Where to get Wheellocks and Matchlocks: J.S. Schroeter 1-714-645-9083 -- locksley at indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd From: tip at lead.tmc.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Laws regarding Black Powder Date: 15 Jun 1994 16:45:52 GMT Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona Recently there has been some questions about blackpowder. Since there are a number of people who are interested in using blackpowder, and owning blackpowder weapons, I thought I might share a little of my research into the laws with them... I'll break it into two sections, entitled "The Weapons" and "Blackpowder", since different laws cover them... THE WEAPONS... Quote from a letter to me from BATF... "Your proposed activities with regard to black powder artillary do not require BATF licensing for the manufacture or use thereof. Please find enclosed a booklet which contains and explains the relevant laws. I have marked several parts for your attention." From "Federal Firearms Regulation, ATF P 5300.4" Title 27, Part 179, section 11, Subpart A Destructive Device. subsection c. The term shall not include ... or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. From the section entitled: Definitions. Antique Firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. From the section of Rulings and General Information Section L, part 27. Muzzle loading cannons not capable of firing fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, and replicas and models thereof, are antiques and not subject to the provisions of either Title I or Title II of the GCA. [179.11] WITH REGARD TO BLACK POWDER ITSELF... From "ATF-Explosives Law and Regulations ATF P 5400.7" Title 27, Part 55.141 Exemptions section 9.b Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be liscenced under subpart D [ed note, manufacturer, importer, or dealer] this does not apply to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 USC 921(1)(16), or antique devices, as exempted from the term "destructive devices". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having said that, you also reduce your legal exposure by applying for a BATF Explosives License... Since I distribute black powder for people to use at festivals and events, I decided to cover my butt by getting a combined section 29/31 dealer/manufacturer (low explosives, limited) license. The cost is $25 for initial application, and $35/three year renewal. The only down side compared to just using it is that you must construct a type 4 magazine at least 75 feet from occupied buildings, roadways, railroads, and highways, and you get a yearly visit from a BATF officer who will want to inspect your magazine and your records... If anybody would like to know anything else about BATF regulations, or anything about Arizona Revised Statutes and State Fire Marshal regs, just ask. I've done a lot of looking into the rights and legalities of using black powder, and can bore you to tears with the details. If anyone wants to come shoot, I can give or sell you powder... However, don't ask me to sell it to you if you don't live in Arizona - I don't have a DOT-E-8249 license, so I can't ship in interstate commerce, sorry. Yours in Service to the Society Ld. Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus From: tip at lead.tmc.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Amateur Artillary... Date: 17 Jun 1994 10:30:12 GMT Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona In article Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore) writes: > >But large, inherently dangerous weapons made by amateurs strike me >as being not necessarily healthy. I seem to recall a provision >in some obscure American legal document (smile, dangit) about >providing for the common defense and promoting the general welfare. >I'd say laws limiting the possession and use of dangerous weapons >intended to serve those purposes. A cannon that might blow up in >my face doesn't make me any happier than an Uzzi in the hands of a >schizophrenic. Me neither... That is why all of the barrels of my large bore weaponry was manufactured by a liscenced gunsmith in Colorado or Worchester England (import laws were obeyed). The barrels were all proofed. The British ones are serial numbered and registered with the British Proof House. When I said I completed... you should remember what I talk about - I talk about WOODWORKING. I buy (legally) the barrels, the wheels, and the raw wood for the carriage (red oak, no exotics controlled by federal laws). When I complete a cannon, I mean that I have done the woodworking (obeying all pertainent state and federal workplace safety laws) to complete the carriage to mount the cannon. (cannon carriages do not require registration as a motor vehicle or trailer under Arizona DOT). Anyway, I am very worried about safety... when I fire these things, they are generally away from the public. (All applicalbe state and federal rules with regard to distance to roads, buildings, water ways, rivers, etc.. are observed). However, I am standing next to them, or within several dozen feet. Thus, if anybody is going to get hit with shrapnel, it's ME. Thus, every year I put them in my truck (all registration, title, insurance in legal order) and drive (my passanger vehicle drivers license is current) them to a shop that does magnafluxing on them (disposal of used magnafluxing materials performed according to EPA regulations). Now, having said that I am worried about safety, what do I think the law should do about it? Well, there are several possibilities... I prefer to enact regulations that, if followed, lead to safe behavior. As you may have noticed from my posting about laws pertaining to black powder, I know the law, I have corresponded with BATF about it uncounted times... I have more licenses than dogs have fleas... Fortunately the licensing isn't as bothersome as it could be... I hate it when I have to spend over 1/2 day getting my car smog tested and registered. However, licensing by government leads to abuse... either they figure out that license fees are a revenue source, or somebody gets a bug up their provebial and starts to make it harder and harder for responsible citizens to exercise their rights by tightening the regs or putting more and more bother in the way of getting the license. You should see the amount of bother I had to go through to get a license to legally import firearms into England!!!!! Actually, the most amusing story is the amount of work I had to do to get a permit to import a Mudskipper into England... I swear on my Father's grave that I have displaced person papers and a visa for my (now deceased) Mudskipper. Signed by the vice counsel for the British Embassy, with photo's affixed, and suitably embossed with the legal seal. Does anybody want to know how far I go to obey the law??? There is your answer - I get identity papers and a visa for a FISH! And if anybody doubts me, I'll bet them $5 I can produce them on demand. (in other words, you pay me a fiver to make it worth my time and I'll send you a Xerox...). So, My Lady, I share your concern about safety of black powder weapons. I just don't think the answer is to ban everything that might not be safe. Soon we would be banning everything in sight to make a fool proof society. Freedom always carries some risk, and it's not right to try to reduce the other guy's freedom, and not expect to jeapordize your own down the line. It could be argued that rampant overregulation doesn't serve to promote the general welfare either... as somebody once quipped... "No mans life or liberty is safe while congress is in session". I think education and regulation, in moderation, is the answer. Ld. Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Did anyone ever say use Black Powder in Combat? Date: 17 Jun 1994 20:57:41 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Inc. F.L. Watkins (folo at prairienet.org) wrote: : Vlasta writes: : : True, it was period, but most of our personnas would not have ever : seen it due to time frame. : What about the fire hazards? : There will eventually be some nut who is convinced that he is either : above or beyond the rules/laws governing discharging a black powder : device in an encampment and do so. : Folo responds: : Fire hazards are taken care of in our proposed rules, : which are based on NWTA regulations. Safety first. If : there is a fire hazard in the area, then no black powder. : It's that simple. I tend to wad with magician's flash paper...burns up before it hits the bushes. : There is nothing to keep some idiot from doing that now, : anymore than all of our regulations will keep some idiot : from doing a live-steel demonstration on his own and : chopping off someone's hand. Abuse of anything--swords : or black powder--seems to me a good case for banishment. Hear! Hear! Or if not banishment, at least a nice auto-da-fe? Hmmm? Pretty please? -- locksley at indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd From: grm+ at andrew.cmu.EDU (Gretchen Miller) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: 17 Jun 1994 12:22:07 -0400 Organization: the internet 3rd post same opinions --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 15-Jun-94 blackpowder DYSON at music.ferris.EDU (1011) > Sorry to yell but the only time B.P. might be seen is in 1600+ isn't it. > I may be wrong but I do not remember it before swash and it was the > death of fencing as a way to fight a war. Yup, yr wrong. From the Academic American Encyclopedia: (from gunpowder) Gunpowder, or BLACK POWDER, was the first true EXPLOSIVE. A mechanical mixture of 10% sulfur, 15% charcoal, and 75% saltpeter (potassium nitrate), it is generally thought to have originated in China, where explosive grenades and bombs were in use by AD 1000. The Arabs were acquainted with gunpowder by the 13th century, and the English philosopher Roger Bacon described its preparation in 1242. By the early 14th century, BLACK POWDER and guns were being manufactured in Europe. Early FIREARMS were clumsy and of limited dependability, but they were rapidly improved. These weapons had great social impact, sounding the death knell for the feudal system. (from musket) The musket, which first appeared in Spain in the mid-1500s, fired a lead ball weighing about 1.5 oz (42 g). Although it was lighter and more accurate than the older ARQUEBUS, it was still so heavy and long that each musketeer needed an aide who helped carry the weapon and its ammunition and prop it up on its stand. The first simple muskets were fitted with matchlocks as the refiring mechanism. The later wheel lock, a serrated wheel that struck sparks from iron pyrites, was too complicated and costly for rough use. The simpler flintlock, known in England as a snaphance, was produced in the late 1500s. toodles, margaret Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: wew at nuxi. (Bill Wilson) Subject: Re: blackpowder Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ, USA Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 16:20:46 GMT Gretchen Miller (grm+ at andrew.cmu.EDU) wrote: : (from musket) The musket, which first appeared in Spain in the : mid-1500s, fired a lead ball weighing about 1.5 oz (42 g). Although it : was lighter and more accurate than the older ARQUEBUS, it was still so : heavy and long that each musketeer needed an aide who helped carry the : weapon and its ammunition and prop it up on its stand. The first simple : muskets were fitted with matchlocks as the refiring mechanism. The : later wheel lock, a serrated wheel that struck sparks from iron : pyrites, was too complicated and costly for rough use. The simpler : flintlock, known in England as a snaphance, was produced in the late : 1500s. The snaphaunce is a very different mechanism than the flintlock and did come out in England and Denmark in the mid 1500s. The snaphaunce mechanism resembles more the wheellock than the flintlock. There is a hammer similar to the flintlock but the pan cover mechanism works more like the wheellock. When the trigger is pulled the pan cover opens and the cock head holding the flint comes down striking the frizzen. The frizzen and pan cover are not attcached as in a true flintlock. I have books showing examples of actual flintlocks from around the turn of the century. These existing pieces (from known datable (sp) gunsmiths) would indicate that the locks must have been invented in the late 1500s. -------------------------------------------------------------------- William E Wilson (wew at sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson at nauvax) Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011 From: STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 09:48:08 EDT Organization: Temple University In article wew at nuxi. (Bill Wilson) writes: >Gretchen Miller (grm+ at andrew.cmu.EDU) wrote: >: (from musket) The musket, which first appeared in Spain in the >: mid-1500s, fired a lead ball weighing about 1.5 oz (42 g). Although it >: was lighter and more accurate than the older ARQUEBUS, it was still so >: heavy and long that each musketeer needed an aide who helped carry the >: weapon and its ammunition and prop it up on its stand. The first simple >: muskets were fitted with matchlocks as the refiring mechanism. The >: later wheel lock, a serrated wheel that struck sparks from iron >: pyrites, was too complicated and costly for rough use. The simpler >: flintlock, known in England as a snaphance, was produced in the late >: 1500s. Greetings to you both, gentles. Though you (Gretchen) are generally correct in your description of pre- flintlock weapons above, I would like to note some points regarding the differences between muskets and arquebuses. The arquebus was certainly older (late 15th century in fact) but was in fact smaller than the musket. Its shot averaged only about 1 oz. and the whole gun wieghed at 10 - 12 lbs. The musket was introduced to give increased range & firepower (both to keep enemy pikemen at bay and to penetrate the better armor of the cavalry). It fired a shot averaging 2 oz. and weighed some 18 - 20 lbs., thus the need for the musket rest to aid in aiming & firing. This increase in size did give the musket a significantly better range & accuracy (from, as one of my sources puts it, "laughable accuracy at 50 yards" to reasonable accuracy at 100 yards). Heavy though it was, however, it was handled & fired by one man. The references to assitants sometimes found tend to be for even heavier matchlocks, sometimes called amusettes, which were almost light artillery and which the Spanish occasionally employed in the mid-to-late 1500's. They were never popular weapons and died out quickly. Sorry to sound like I'm lecturing, but this is my area of historical specialty (i.e. early modern military history). >The snaphaunce is a very different mechanism than the flintlock and did >come out in England and Denmark in the mid 1500s. [deletions of excellent chronology of lock development] >books showing examples of actual flintlocks from around the turn of >the century. These existing pieces (from known datable (sp) gunsmiths) >would indicate that the locks must have been invented in the late >1500s. I would just like to note, Bill, that though both kinds of flintlocks (snaphaunce and true) were being made, they remained very rare until the late 17th century, mostly being used on sporting guns. Lord Cyrillion de la Izquierdo Lado formerly of the Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies MKA Stewart Riley Dept. of History, Temple University stwriley at vm.temple.edu From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: 21 Jun 1994 17:21:13 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry In article <2u5d77$oc3 at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) wrote: [snip] > ... at least until the quality of powder improved. The major improvements were better methods of purifying the saltpeter, the discovery that softwood charcoal was better, corning, and stamping under pressure. A 15:3:2 mix of saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur is called "greenmix", "junkmix", or "pulverone". It is lightly greenish in tint, and burns very poorly. It also stratifies in the pwoder barrel under shipping and storage, so that the lighter charcoal floats up and the saltpeter sinks. Wetting it and making it into grains or corns reduces that tendancy and allows fire to pass from one corn to the other. If you wish to see the difference, consider the burning of compressed powder in a rocket versus the burning of slightly compressed corns in a gun. The final discovery was that stamping the material or compressing it in rollers for a few hours increases the strength of the burning of the corns by a factor of 2 or more. > ...My hand cannon (manufactured by Master Talbot > macTaggert) dates from the late 14th century and is essentially > a small cannon on a stick. Sounds fun, what bore, what length, what manner of construction? How much and can I get one? Lord Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: 23 Jun 1994 17:30:31 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry In article <2uc405$sqr at beacon.dev.com>, Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) wrote: > > TP> From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) > > TP> The final discovery was that stamping the material or compressing it > TP> in rollers for a few hours increases the strength of the burning of > TP> the corns by a factor of 2 or more. > > Wonder how many of these rollers/stampers they blew up before they got it > right... ;-> There is the sad story of how Berthelot was demonstrating his new improved stamping mill and powder formulation to some visiting royal dignataries. They had champagne, he described his process, and they went to visit the plant. Just as Their Highnesses approached the stamping mill it exploded, flinging them "vast distances". According to the report I read they were alive when found (shows how vast the distance must have been), but they died within minutes afterwards. They still blow up from time to time... thats why stamping mills are built in flimsy buildings (to provide little confinement to the blast), built behind or within large blast berms of dirt, and are turned on and off remotely. The stampers are made of hop hornbeam wood pounding into wood or granite bowls. These materials have been found to reduce sparking and to provide the highest degree of safety. Stamping mills also have strict protocols about relative humidty and weather conditions, and are not run during periods when thudnerstorms or static discharges are allowed to happen. Workers wear only all cotton clothing, to reduce static. Shoes, etc..., are all carefully made to reduce the possibility of static. Workers are required to completey change clothing before entering the work area. Some traces of some chemicals, such as chlorates, can cause fire even in trivial amounts. Any worker caught carrying matches or any smoking materials into the production area is summarily dismissed. The safety protocols of the high explosives industry are also fun to learn about... for example, prior to the introduction of robotics and remote control, in the nitration process of making nitroglycerin they used to have the process in a tall flimsey building away from all the rest. The height provided a gravity feed for the product, and an escape route for the vatman. He worked standing or sitting directly in front of a long slanting chute with a water puddle at the bottom. If anything goes wrong he flings himself backwards into the chute, and the water cushions his fall and extinquishes him if he is flaming. To help prevent vatmen from falling asleep on the job they were provided with one legged stools... they fall asleep, they fall over. Of course it's all remote control now, at least, in the US. If anyone wants to know more, Tenny L. Davis, The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, is a great book. Before somebody decides to turn me in on some pretext, I am knowledgeable about this due to my previous position at the USAF Academy in the Frank J. Seiler High Energy Materials Lab (SFRP, FJSRL/NC, Fairchild 2655, Lt. Col. A. Scheaffer, Cmdr). Everything I have done with high energy materials (as opposed to low explosives such as black powder) has not only been fully legal, but done in the service of my country. Lord Thomas Ignatius Peregrinus From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Wheelock Kit Availability Date: 27 Jun 1994 01:08:57 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Just received my new issue of MUZZLELOADER magazine, and there, on page 31, is an ad: RECREATE YOUR PIECE OF HISTORY. German and Itaian Style Wheellock Pistols and Matchlock Caliver Caliver: 36" half octangonal/round .43 cal. barrel full length walnut stock, kit only. $350 Italian pistol: 15" octagonal .43 cal. barrel, walnut stock, kit only, $275 German pistol: 12" half octagonal/round .43 cal. barrel, walnut stock, kit only, $275 Parts are machinbed 4140 steel investment castings, detailed instruction manual. To order call toll free 1-800-838-2024. Send $3 for 28 page illustrated catalog. Antique Arms J> F> Schroter Antique Arms PO Box Box 10794 Costa Mesa, CA 92627 ---- Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA) From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: 28 Jun 1994 22:50:28 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Most blackpowder groups I've encountered allows the use of Pyrodex in muskets and such; however, it is not recommended for use in artillery. I'm certainly no expert, but someone who is told me that the pressure builds up quicker and harder with Pyrodex (I'm certain someone more familiar with it can correct me if I'm misremembering). As a result, using the same amount of Pyrodex as you would blackpowder could possibly rupture the tube. On the other hand, Pyrodex is cleaner and more stable than black powder. Having never used it, I do not know whether it is more reliable. Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA) From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The Technical Blackpowder Thread (was: loooong) Date: 23 Jun 1994 13:35:53 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana This is the way the NWTA and most Civil War groups I've worked with make their charges. It is also the way that my mentor, Baron Fionn MacGiollapadraig, taught me to do it. Our crew briefly--very briefly--considered using loose powder but quickly decided against it. Using our templates (okay, a juice can and a tupperware container...) we make a sleeve from a piece of aluminum foil. We pour the powder into the bottom and then place a separating piece of aluminum foil over it. Then we place cornmeal (just ordinary cornmeal...dunno the caliber) on top of the second layer of foil, bend over the foil so that it looks like a huge phallus (my powder monkey's term, not mine). Some people mark that end with a red marker, but we have found no similarity between the ends. The Civil War groups with whom I've had contact use the same procedure, although they generally use flour. Flour, being combustible, can give some very impressive results. Unfortunately, the fire damage is also much greater. Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA) From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Technical Blackpowder Thread (was: loooong) Date: 23 Jun 1994 22:37:45 GMT Organization: Department of Chemistry In article <2uc33p$oa3 at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) wrote: > > Using our templates (okay, a juice can and a tupperware > container...) we make a sleeve from a piece of aluminum > foil. We pour the powder into the bottom and then place a > separating piece of aluminum foil over it. Then we place > cornmeal (just ordinary cornmeal...dunno the caliber) on > top of the second layer of foil, bend over the foil so > that it looks like a huge phallus (my powder monkey's > term, not mine). Some people mark that end with a red > marker, but we have found no similarity between the ends. Ah... so in fact you do use an inertial mass to increase compression. Your mass is a divided cornmeal in what amounts to a sabot. I use thin fireproofed cotton with an overburden of chopped grass. The question of the behavior of powder or grains in the internal ballistics of large bore weaponry obviously has some serious implications in the military, and so it is a matter of serious study. There is a complicated formula that evaluates dv/dt for a powder in a barrel as a function of permiability, as a function of compaction, individual partical mass, density of packing, compressability, etc... It's been a long time, but if I remember right the entrainment and compaction of loose powder by an expanding gas front serves to compact the powder into a dense mass for the first few milliseconds of the deflgration event. As long as the powder (generally we are talking propellant and not nachos *grin*) is travelling slower than the expanding gas front, then compaction continues. Note, this generally means that you want a progressive powder or a sufficient amount to make sure there is still gas gneration for the full length of the barrel. This may explain why you use what seems to me to be a rather large amount of powder. I would guess you are getting a brisant "snap" rather than a compressive "boom"? You might find that 1F or C might give you a better accoustically coupled compression blast than what you are doing now. I actually tune my guns by using a mix of 10% to 50% FFg for a bit of snap and 90% to 50% C to get the compression wave. When we demonstrate near parking lots I can tell the effectiveness of the compression wave by the number of car alarms, even when we are firing AWAY from the parking lot and at a safe (and legal) distance. With FFg only I seldom set off alarms. With a mix of FFg and C, I can often get 2 to 5 alarms. Lord Thomas Ignatius (eh, what did you say?) Perigrinus From: pyotr at chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Wadja put in the Cannon?!?! Date: 27 Jun 1994 06:20:55 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. john_attwood at tscnet.eskimo.com (John Attwood) writes: >On wadding with musket fire -- > A small caliber rifle with a powder - only load, if tamped >fairly hard and brought up to the present with care, will make a fairly >mild bark. A large caliber musket gives out a silly hissing "PONK!" >that makes the spectators all laugh. It's the wadding that makes the >noise, in my experience, WITH SMALL ARMS. Wadding with either grass or >cornmeal with artillery should do the same, I would think. I recieved this story from a cannoneer at the Kent Canturbry Fest last summer. Apparently, a fellow gunner decided to add a little flour to the wadding to provide a nice big poofy cloud. One eensy, teensy tiny problem: flour is combustable. 'And lo there was a great roar and a large cloud of smoke, and the smell of burnt toast did waife across the area.' Oops. As to load size, Denis McLaren took his firearm to a shooting match, pulled a 'standard' MacFlandry parade load and inquired "Is this okay?" Yoicks and small codfish - it was not! Seems what we fire for parades, where we want flash and bang (Sturm und Drag?) is way too big for putting bullets down range. Maybe a "lonnng" ways down range, but not normal loads. just my kopecks Nikolai Petrovich Zampollet to the MacFlandries. > * Master Evan Graham of MOntrose, Colonel, Graham's Greys > Regiment of Foot, in the An Tir Brigade of Guards * -- pyotr at halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. Plant Rice by Day From: STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 08:19:54 EDT Organization: Temple University In article <2uq6fo$k4r at netaxs.com> gothic at netaxs.com (Matt Kriebel) writes: >Trouble is, Pyrodex has a very high ignition temperature and as such can >only be used with percussion cap weapons. Match, wheel, flint locks and >their many variations are not able to ignite Pyrodex. Actually, I have used Pyrodex in both matchlocks and a wide variety of flintlocks, from tiny squirrel rifles to reproduction Brown Bess muskets and it works perfectly. The FFFFg grade makes fine priming powder and the FFg canlly make a Bess roar. Lord Cyrillion de la Izquierdo Lado formerly of the Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies From: gothic at netaxs.com (Matt Kriebel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: 30 Jun 1994 21:38:37 GMT Organization: Netaxs BBS and shell accounts! STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU wrote: : : >Trouble is, Pyrodex has a very high ignition temperature and as such can : >only be used with percussion cap weapons. Match, wheel, flint locks and : >their many variations are not able to ignite Pyrodex. : : Actually, I have used Pyrodex in both matchlocks and a wide variety : of flintlocks, from tiny squirrel rifles to reproduction Brown Bess : muskets and it works perfectly. The FFFFg grade makes fine priming : powder and the FFg canlly make a Bess roar. Really??! Maybe I'm not up-to-date but I thought Pyrodex is sold (by Dixie gunworks anyway) in only three grades: pistol, rifle and shotgun. They made no mention of F grades. I made this statement out of my own experience with Pyrodex at the Rev war battle at Cliveden (Germantown, Philadelphia). After I ran out of blackpowder during the second battle my comander gave his (as then untried) Pyrodex charges. The stuff was corns larger than 1F blackpoder. I might as well have poured charcoal briquettes down my Bess barrel. Dixie gunworks also states in their catalogue (which I do not have the most up-to-date version of) that Pyrodex can only be used with percussio cap weapons. Are we talking about the same stuff here? Matt. From: STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 22:20:15 EDT Organization: Temple University In article <2uve0t$e2h at netaxs.com> gothic at netaxs.com (Matt Kriebel) writes: >Really??! Maybe I'm not up-to-date but I thought Pyrodex is sold (by >Dixie gunworks anyway) in only three grades: pistol, rifle and shotgun. >They made no mention of F grades. > >I made this statement out of my own experience with Pyrodex at the Rev >war battle at Cliveden (Germantown, Philadelphia). After I ran out of >blackpowder during the second battle my comander gave his (as then >untried) Pyrodex charges. The stuff was corns larger than 1F blackpoder. >I might as well have poured charcoal briquettes down my Bess barrel. > >Dixie gunworks also states in their catalogue (which I do not have the >most up-to-date version of) that Pyrodex can only be used with percussio >cap weapons. Are we talking about the same stuff here? > >Matt. Sorry Matt, I misstated in an attempt at non-confusion. Pyrodex is graded in its own system but it lists the equivalent on the bottle (i.e. "pistol" is FFFg, "rifle" is FFg, etc.). They were making a priming powder/FFFFg equivalent, but I haven't bought any of that in about 3 years, they may have discontinued it. All the flint weapons I worked with were owned by theatre companies ( I could never afford my own on a techie's salary :-)). What your commander probably gave you was the Fg equivalent, which I hated in firearms, too hard to ignite (though it does make good morter bombs for reciprocal charges when you're simulating cannon shots). Stick with the finer grades and you shouldn't have any problems. Lord Cyrillion de la Izquierdo Lado Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Blackpowder in the SCA From: john_attwood at tscnet.eskimo.com (John Attwood) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 04:05:00 -0800 Organization: TSCNET Inc. d(206)692-2388 v(206)613-0708 Gentles, An Tir Kingdom law does not ban black powder weapons or, indeed, address them at all. Both Regiments of the An Tir Brigade of Guards carry them. Contrary to popular belief, the "first flintlock" previously believed -- the piece now in the Hermitage, made for Henri of Navarre in 1608 - 1610 -- turns out not to be the first. The Arms and Armour Annual states on P. 114, perinformation by Robert Held I believe, that the oldest example now known is a French flintlock -- and it is a true flint with the L-shaped pan-cover and battery [Frizzen], NOT a snap-haunce, in which they are separate; I do not know if it has the final refinement of a half - cock position instead of an external dog lock. The piece is in poor condition *and* is dated 1595. As has been pointed out, the dominant weapon of the period 1450 - 1650 was a matchlock of some kind. From 1480 - 1540 or so this was a weapon of three or four foot overall length firing a ball of .3 - .7 inch of 15 to 30 gauge somewhere, which has come to be known as the "arquebus," French reduction of the original German term, "Hachsenbuechse", hook - gun. A feudal magnate [the Prince of Savoy, I think] wanted a large number of them -- 7000 according to one of my books -- made to one set standard, and these were known as "Harquebuses de la calivre de la prince," meaning they wouldall fire the same size ball -- and the name "Caliver" stuck to the descendant of the arquebus, which continued in use at least to the end of the 1600s. The true musket was a man-smashing brute of 5 or 6 foot length firing a ball from .7 to nearly 1 inch in diameter, or about 4 to 12 bore in weight. [This bore gusiness is the ancestor of the modern "gauge" measure of delineating shotguns, bythe way, and originally measured how many shot you could mould out of a pound of lead, if you were REAL careful!] Again a matchlock, the musket had tobe fired from a rest; 10 men per 100 in Spanish companies of shot carried them. Their first confirmed use is at the Battle of Muehlberg in 1547, when they turned a flank at a prodigious distance across a river the enemy had believed secure. The mechanical igniters were always rare. They required specialists to make and repair and they cost a lot -- they were high tech, in their day! This was especially true of the wheel - lock, which may have appeared much earlier than thought -- the tale of its invention by the German gunsmith Kalfbus in 1517 appears to be apocryphal, and according to Robert Held it mayhave appeared as early as 1512. The Imperial Diet made strict regulations governing their use after a whole was accidentally shot with one at about that time. They were everynobleman's favourite toy in northern Italy and southern Germany at the time, too! The snaphaunce seems to have appeared about 1550. We really don't know, because all the surviving ones are from much later than that, neat slim well - made toys of boot - pistols [the Art of Chivalry exhibit was lousy with them, if you saw that, some dating to the 1700s, believe it or not!]. The flintlock began to appear in the 1590s, apparently the flintlock in France and Miquelet in Spain, if Held is right about this. There are some amusing things to this. The mechanical igniters were believed to be overpriced toys as far as military use went; the Black Reiters in Germany began employing wheelock pistols in boot and pommel holsters in about the 1540s, and wheel-locks were still being made in 1650, according to a surviving Table of Gun Maker's Rates. But wheel-lock carbines and long - arms were extremely rare and costly, used mostly for hunting ["fowling pieces"]. a snap-haunce seems to have been a poor man's wheel - lock, and like the wheel lock was considered too frail for the pounding they would get in military use; there seems to have been an effort to get them into the hands of artillery guards and dragoons, but these were small parts of the armies of the day. What gave me a chuckle was that civilian sporting arms were available in significant numbers out in the countryside in the Empire during the Thirty Years War, and in England and Scotland during the English Civil Wars. In the Thirty Years War there is an oft - told tale of peasants sick of being plundered chasing a regiment of Imperial troops into a wood, and using the superior accuracy and reliability of their "firelocks" to shoot down the soldiers like dogs at ranges, and in weather, where the soldiers could not adequately reply. And in the English Civil War King and Parliament grabbed everything they could lay their hands on and shoot; there seems to have been some employment of sharpshooters with the better fowling pieces, as portrayed by re-enactors in BY THE SWORD DIVIDED on PBS, if you saw that. The plug bayonet was first experimented with in the 1630s in France and, I think, Sweden. This was a conscious effort to replace the musket with the pike, and it took until 1705 to retire the last pikes from the British army. By the 1600s regiments of foot were well established at one third pike, two thirds musket. Sorry to wander here, I am putting this together as I remember it. The musket shrank to something not much larger than the old caliver; efforts were made to lighten it so that the rest could be dispensed with. This seems to have happened in the field by the 1630s - 1640s. The drill books mention shooting from a rest, but they seem to disappear from battlefield accounts. Now. Safety in the SCA. Both the Royal MacFlandryRegiment of An Tir and Graham's Greys have musket safety training that anyone bringing a gun into the troop needs to take, and demonstrate that they know. Bearing such an expensive and possibly dangerous bit of kit is a jealously guarded priviledge; in the Greys, to be a Chosen Man you have to demonstrate the ability to load and fire safely on themarch [this is with flintlocks, mind, not matchlocks], and load and fire live ball at a target. Safety brecautions by the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society in America are even more strenuous -- each musketman has to demonstrate that he knows his drill to a very skeptical panel of experienced men. There used to be much more demonstration of black powder firearms in An Tir than there is now. Frankly, there is a cultural value against it, just as there is in the Mountain Men against cannon. We carry ours a lot more often than we get to set them off. My personal use of muskets has been far greater, and more appreciated, in community parades, at community demos, and in combination with the later Voyageurs, whos eperiod onlybegins to take up where ours leaves off. I have fired about 750 live rounds and more than 1000 "blind charges" since I began shooting in 1980; I would guess I am the most experienced hand at this who does black powder in An Tir, although there are other folks who shoot extensively outside the SCA and not inside. * Master Evan Graham of Montrose, Colonel, Graham's Greys Regiment of Foot, in the An Tir Brigade of Guards * Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder From: john_attwood at tscnet.eskimo.com (John Attwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 23:22:00 -0800 Organization: TSCNET Inc. d(206)692-2388 v(206)613-0708 Lord Cyrrilon, The shoe's been on the other foot, for me. I know of nearly no one -- Mountain Men, Civil War re-enactors, budding ECW enthusiasts, or us -- who uses pyrodex. It is claimed to have a higher burning temperature nad compression, cost more, and be evenmore corrosive, and is not popular. I have hardly ever seen it and fired comparatively little of it in 14 years. Now, that's in An Tir, especially in Washington, and it's not the last word even there. I frequent about ten different gun shops and vendors at Rondys and so on; all carry black powder in the common sizes in stock, but PyroDex has to be ordered as it does not "move" well. * Master Evan Graham of Montrose, Colonel and Musket Moghul * From: STWRILEY at VM.TEMPLE.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: blackpowder Date: Mon, 04 Jul 94 22:52:57 EDT Organization: Temple University In article <5d.13511.1890 at tscnet.eskimo.com> john_attwood at tscnet.eskimo.com (John Attwood) writes: >Lord Cyrrilon, > > The shoe's been on the other foot, for me. I know of nearly no >one -- Mountain Men, Civil War re-enactors, budding ECW enthusiasts, or >us -- who uses pyrodex. It is claimed to have a higher burning >temperature nad compression, cost more, and be evenmore corrosive, and >is not popular. I have hardly ever seen it and fired comparatively >little of it in 14 years. Now, that's in An Tir, especially in >Washington, and it's not the last word even there. > > I frequent about ten different gun shops and vendors at Rondys >and so on; all carry black powder in the common sizes in stock, but >PyroDex has to be ordered as it does not "move" well. > > * Master Evan Graham of Montrose, Colonel and Musket Moghul * Master Evan, most humble greetings, It is interesting how different usage is out in the northwest. Most of my experience has been in Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, with the first two predominant. Certainly in theatre circles Pyrodex is popular, but our needs can be a bit specialized, stressing qualities like stability and lessened fire hazard. Pyrodex, which does burn faster, hotter, with a higher compression, and apparently more completely, is far safer in the close quarters of a theatrical setting. I have never had availability problems in any of the above states, indeed I found Pyrodex common even at small gunshops in KY since it was the choice of BP hunters. It also is *less* corrosive in my experience, as long as guns are promptly cleaned. Corrosion problems only arrise if Pyrodex residue is left in a gun for an extended period, when it makes an even better rust activator than BP. Lord Cyrillion de la Izquierdo Lado From: ottar69 at aol.com (Ottar69) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period firearms Date: 3 Jan 1995 10:10:43 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Matchlocks were in use from somewhere around 1550 or earlier. I can't remember the exact author but there is a book called "The English Civil War" wich shows the Brits doing the same sort of reenactments that we do except for the English Civil War period. There is a reference section in the back of the book wich gives some supplier lists. Also Dixie Gun Works in Union City Tennessee has an EXCELLENT new manufacture ,firing matchlock that is period in design and shoots pretty darn well. The only drawback is it costs about $900. Hope this helps! Ottar Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: william.wilson at nau.edu (William E Wilson) Subject: Re: Period firearms Organization: Northern AZ University Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 16:43:50 GMT In article <3ebpdj$rb2 at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ottar69 at aol.com (Ottar69) wrote: > Matchlocks were in use from somewhere around 1550 or earlier. I can't > remember the exact author but there is a book called "The English Civil > War" wich shows the Brits doing the same sort of reenactments that we do > except for the English Civil War period. There is a reference section in > the back of the book wich gives some supplier lists. Also Dixie Gun Works > in Union City Tennessee has an EXCELLENT new manufacture ,firing matchlock > that is period in design and shoots pretty darn well. The only drawback is > it costs about $900. Hope this helps! > Ottar For those people wanting to build there own matchlock and save hundreds of dollars, I supply locks, barrels and other parts. The matchlock was in use throughout the 1400's and 1500's. Well within period. In fact, I now have information showing that the true flintlock mechanism may have been in use as early as 1595. Snaphaunces started to be used as early as 1550, miquelets by 1580 and wheellocks during Da Vinci's time. I should be carrying wheellock mechanisms within a year if all goes well. Email me if you would like any information. Lord Gwylym ---------------------------------------- William Wilson -- william.wilson at nau.edu Northern Arizona University Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: duncanb at spider.co.uk (Duncan Bell) Subject: Re: Society-Wide Guild of St. Barbara Summary: Guns blow up mundanes Keywords: gun black powder accident safety Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK. Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:19:47 GMT Greetings! At a re-enactment event in Oxford, England yesterday a gun crew of the Sealed Knot re-enactment society (English (sic.) Civil War) destroyed 30 parked autos belonging to spectators by accidently firing at them. I currently have no details on WHAT they fired: cannon balls are usually only fired by mutual consent! It is often difficult to keep spectators at a safe distance at these events: perhaps the autos were also trying to join in the fun ... Duncan, musician, musketeer and pikeman in the Earle of Loudon's Regiment of Foote Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: albion at castle.ed.ac.uk (Andrew Casson) Subject: Re: Society-Wide Guild of St. Barbara Organization: University of Edinburgh Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 14:43:00 GMT Keywords: gun black powder accident safety duncanb at spider.co.uk (Duncan Bell) writes: >Greetings! >At a re-enactment event in Oxford, England yesterday a gun >crew of the Sealed Knot re-enactment society (English (sic.) >Civil War) destroyed 30 parked autos belonging to spectators >by accidently firing at them. I currently have no details on >WHAT they fired: cannon balls are usually only fired by >mutual consent! According to the BBC news reports I heard about this, burning wadding from one of the cannon set fire to stubble in the field they were using. The fire then spread to the area being used for parking by the spectators and 30 or so cars went up. Injuries were described as minor. Wolfgang Adolphus Jager Harpelestane (Edinburgh, Scotland) From: Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: black powder matchlock sources Date: 19 Mar 1996 02:06:30 GMT Organization: neca.com >snip >Second question: Any idea where to get a working replica matchlock? >We've seen flintlocks, but nothing earlier except for on-of-a-kind works >of art,. >Berwyn >Lord Berwyn AEthelbryght of Ackley, >Rudivale shire, Northshield, Midrealm >BRgarwood at aol.com My lord, In addition to the suggestions which have already been made, might I also suggest JF Schroter Antique Arms from Costa Mesa, CA. They have a matchlock caliver kit which looks pretty nice, altho' they have the pan screwed to the lockplate not welded to the barrel as it should be. It is easily modified by a competent gunsmith however. Cost - about $400 If you are more experienced you might try one of the locks from The Rifle Shoppe, Rte 1 Box 82C, Jones, OK 73049, 405-396-2583. They have an extensive selection of locks. If you would be interested in dicussing this further, please drop me an email note. Yours in service, Mistress Freydis Ragnarsdattir Canton of Fennbrycg, Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom Subject: Make a Matchlock Page Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 19:07:05 MST From: rmhowe To: stefan at lonestar.texas.net, "Mark.S Harris" , http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/Tattershall-tb/ml.html [Submitted by: rmhowe ] Subject: Making Tudor Canon Question Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:49:33 -0500 From: gregory.stapleton at funb.com To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org Got this off Rec.Crafts.Metalworking. I was under the impression that this would have been cast....Anyone know? Can you supply sources? Thank you, Gawain Kilgore ========= >Chris Topp wrote: > >> We are a company of traditional blacksmiths in England who through our >> sister company 'The Real Wrought Iron Co.',are, as far as we know the >> only world supplier of real wrought iron. >> >> We recently constructed a replica wrought iron cannon for the Mary >> Rose Trust and the Royal Armouries using metal staves, hoops and >> bands which was for the purposes of both firing to ascertain the >> effectiveness of tudor weaponary and for display puposes at the >> Artillery section of the Royal Armoury at Fort Nelson nr Portsmouth >> in England. >> >> We have now been asked to construct a replica of a ship borne swivel >> gun, again from the Mary Rose. The gun is a breach loader, some 6ft >> long with a 2" bore and will be made from Charcoal Iron. The original >> however does not appear from either visual examination or XRay to >> have any welds in the barrel. >> >> Does anyone have any information on how this may have been constructed >> as we do not believe they had the ability to bore this size of >> material. We wish as far as is possible to use the manufacturing >> techniques of the period. >> Thanks >> Steve Suff >> Office Manager >> >> -**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- >> http://www.remarq.com/ - Host to the the World's Discussions & Usenet > ............... > >Hi Chris, > > > >You are to be commended for such an undertaking..Quite a task!! > >So far as the swivel gun is concerned there is only one possible method > >that comes to mind that would not involve forge welding..either > >logitudinally or spiral welding' > . > >This is to forge from a solid billet in the way that much later (and > >modern)gunmakers did it. > > >The billet is heated and pierced part way through to form a fat "cup". It is > >then forged out to length over a bore size mandrel, the outside diameter > >getting progressively smaller the bore remaining constant and the length > >growing as forging progresses. > >In modern practice the proces is called "Drawn over Mandrel" and is used for > >both pressure vessels and tubing. > > >First a cubic billet (actually the cross section is called "Gothic") > >is sawn to length, heated to forging temperature and subjected to a > >piercing/back extrusion operation, that first produces a thick walled cup. > >This cup is then placed on a long mandrel of the required bore diameter > >and pushed , horizontally, (on a "Push Bench" no less) through a series > >of ring or roller dies, that reduce the O/D and elongate the length. > >This all takes place in ONE heat in about ONE minute!! > > >Interestingly a similar technique is used to make toothpaste tubes!! > > >You might want to contact TI CHESTERFIELD...(if they are still in > >business) in Chesterfield, Derbyshire. They are the gas cylinder > >manufacturing arm of Tube Investments (Head Office in Birmingham) They > >may be able to show you how it is done...they may even be able to do > >the rough forging and drawing for you! > >8^) > >Robert Bastow > >(Ex Export Sales Manager..TI Chesterfield) ;^) > > >PS Where in N Yorks are you? I am from the Huddersfield area..now in > >Atlanta GA > ........................ Yep... Charles Ffloulkes not only wrote a book on Armourers when he was Master of the Armouries at the Tower, he also wrote the following: The Gun-Founders of England - With a List of English and Continental Gun-Founders from the XIV to the XIX Centuries, by Charles Ffoulkes, C.B., O.B.E. Officer of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem. Hon. D.Litt. Oxon., F.S.A., F.R.S.A. Master of the Armouries, Tower of London, with a preface by Lord Cottesloe, C.B., V.D. Cambridge, at the University Press 1937. Even though this book was written before the raising of the Mary Rose it covers cannon from the Mary Rose. There are a number of illustrations in it that are drawn from Denis Diderot's A Pictorial Encyclopedia of Trades and Publications, which cover a number of the processes of making cannons during the later 18th C. in France in detail. Diderot is available in two volumes of illustrations from Dover. Gun-Founders of England is available through BiblioFind although you may not be terribly enthused with the prices. It seems to be a single printing and averages $100-185. However I imagine it could be ILL'd. ................... Gunfounding is also covered in the following books: Biringuccio's Pirotechnia (1540) Bang on for date. Theophilus' Divers Arts describes Bellfounding from which gunfounding was evolved. A History of Technology by Singer covers gunfounding in Volume III. Daumas' History of Technology and Invention covers it to a lesser degree in Volume II. Roundshot and Rammers by Harold L. Peterson discusses the artillery used in the Colonies by the various powers of Europe from the earliest days. Even depicts leather field cannon. Leonardo Da Vinci has designs for a variety of cannon and in fact started as a bellfounder. Clubs to Cannon by O.F.G. Hogg discusses the evolution of cannon and gunpowder to some degree. ............... The cannon for the Golden Hinde reproduction were cast by Cliff Matthews of the Isle of Wight, who specialises in the reproductions of period cannon and has supplied cannon for Carrisbrooke Castle. "A master plug or cast is the first stage in manufacture. The Foundry then uses the plug to make a mould in which the cannon are cast." Depictions of the modern moulds are in _The Golden Hinde_ copyright Golden Hinde Ltd. (no author or publisher specified), an exhibition booklet. ............... Pictures of the cannon of the Mary Rose may be found in the following publications: National Geographic May 1983, "The Search for the Mary Rose" The Mary Rose - The Excavation and Raising of King Henry VIII's Flagship, by Margaret Rule, Windward, 1982. How We Found the Mary Rose, by Alexander McKee 1982 St. Martin's Press. Note - I don't have access to rec.crafts.metalworking thru NCSU. The Mary Rose (Exhibition Catalog), 1985, Mary Rose Trust. http://www.maryrose.org/ M. Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, GDH From: "Terry Decker" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Muslims with Guns Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:48:57 -0600 Needham, Joseph, Science and Civilization in Ancient China; Cambridge, 1954-. The first reference to the preparation of gunpowder noted appears in a Taoist alchemy text from the 9th Century. The evolution of gunpowder weapons appears to begin in the 10th Century. Metal gun barrels were being made by the beginning of the 14th Century. The first known Chinese use of cannons is in mid-14th Century. The first European reference is found in the writings of Roger Bacon from 1268. It is possible he learned of gunpowder from William of Rubruck. The earliest documented use of cannon in Europe is at the Siege of Cividale (Northern Italy) in 1331 by two German knights. (Contamine,Phillipe, War in the Middle Ages.) Bear Edited by Mark S. Harris firearms-msg