f-fighters-msg - 7/14/17

Protective gear for female fighters in the SCA. Groin and chest protection.

NOTE: See also the files: Women-Battle-art, Shield-Balanc-art, armorers-lst, Fightng-Small-art, tournaments-art, SCAweapons-msg, armor-msg, WS-bib.

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From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Questions about armor
Date: 21 Jun 93 10:59:41
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture

lthomas at perdita.gac.edu writes:
] I have somehow been drafted, [...] into making armor for a friend of mine.
] I have in the past produced several rather successful padded gambesons,
] currently beeing worn under chain with appropriate hard coverings. However
] because the next project is for a female (all the others were for males) I
] am in need of some information.  I am interested in finding out what
] peoplehave discovered has and hasn't worked.  Both in usability and in
] getting past the marshalls (Middle Kingdom) preferably without trouble or
] question.

The first question of course is how endomorphically (i.e. wrt body shape)
female your friend is. I assume she is somewhat so, or you would just
put her in a male armour with some minimal extra chest protection.

My wife, on other hand, is abundantly female. What works well for her
is a gambeson made of 1/2" industrial felt sewn between two layers of
light cotton canvas ( the same gambeson design she made for me, in
fact ). Over which she wears first a gorget with a collar of 1/16"
6061 T6 aluminum plates riveted to canvas that covers the shoulders
near the neck, the upper vertebrae of the spine, and the front of
the chest just below the throat. This collar is then fastened (we
use velcro but may switch to a tie or snap ) to the front of the
gambeson as extra insurance against a blow to the throat.

Then partly covering the collar she wears a modified version of 
transitional plate (I think it's called that : 8 pieces of shaped 
metal arrangend cylindrically around the torso ), made again of 1/16"
6061 T6 aluminum. The modification consists of widening the front
center peice to cover the entire chest, and extending up enough
that it overlaps the collar.

Pounding the compound curves needed into the 6061 T6 was tough :
it's an extremely hard aluminum allow, commonly used in aircraft.
In fact, we couldn't get the curves over the upper chest right
except by making a cut in the top center of the front center
pice, and bending the piece so that there was a triangular area
of overlap at the cut, then putting a rivet in the top of this
overlap. It would have been easier to make the plates of mild steel.
This is one reason, BTW, why I believe elbow and knee cops should
always be of steel : it's tough to get deep compound curves into
the hard aluminum without compromising the metal's properties,
unless you know how to properly heat-treat aluminum.

[ We've debated aluminum and other modern material before : 
  Please, let's not do it again. ]

Anyway, this arrangment is relatively light but provides excellent 
upper body protection. Even heavy unhindered "proofing" shots to the
torso armour are reduced to just a good heavy shove by the time they
reach flesh.

You mention "clam shell"-style breast protection. I believe that the
SCA-wide armor standards prohibit metal breast cups unless they are
rigidly attached to each other, so your "clam shells" may not pass.
--
Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com
Intel i960(R) Microprocessor Division    Solely responsible for what I do.


From: margritte at aol.com (Margritte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: women warriors (pelvic protection)
Date: 11 Oct 1994 11:56:04 -0400

mujle at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jennifer L Edwards) writes:

> Here in the Middle, some form of protection is required (i.e. a "hard
over soft" form 
> of protection). I recomend a strip of leather or plastic, covered with
foam, sewn into a
 > pair of large old underwear.

Try taking a piece of sole leather, cut like an hourglass.  Glue a
similarly shaped piece of closed-cell foam to the inside.  If you wear it
between two pairs of underwear, it will stay in place, but can easily be
slipped off with the rest of your armor


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: eng3mxg at hibbs.vcu.edu (Mikele A. Galbraith)
Subject: Re: women warriors
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:28:58 GMT

When it comes to groin protection for women: Ouch!  I've been hit
there!  A good safe thing to use is a women's cup, available most
easily through Karate suppliers...

Maire/ Mikele of Anglesey
aka known as the Viking girl..


From: johanus at ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Johanus Haidner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: women warriors
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 17:23:54 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3

yes, you must wear groin protection, at here in An Tir.  According to the
An Tir book of combat (the ABC's) a female fighter must wear "female 
groin protection" or equivalent.  This is a commercial sports "cup"
designed specifically for female use.
Caoimhtheach
--
Johanus Haidner   johanus at ersys.edmonton.ab.ca   
Edmonton Remote Systems   Serving Edmonton/Northern Alberta since 1982


From: jyeates at bga.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: women warriors
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 12:11:29 PDT
Organization: Texas Department of Health

> yes, you must wear groin protection, at here in AN TIr.  According to the
> An TIr book of combat (the ABC's) a female fighter must wear "female 
> groin protection" or equivalent.  This is a commercial sports "cup"
> designed specifically for female use.

saw an excellent solution to the problem ... for any women interested in 
SCAdian martial arts, and looking for basic armour, check out some of the mail 
order rollar-hockey suppliers.  was looking through a catalog to price some 
basic gear and noted some well designed groin and breast protectors ... a good 
starting place would be to snag a copy of "Inline" and write/call for catalogs
 
'wolf


From: Jill.Mason at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jill Mason)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: women warriors
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:38:00 -0800

According to the ABC (AnTir book of combat) female groin protection is 
required.  I beleive it also outlines the type of 
protection required.  I have always relied on the rigid front tasset on 
my armor, but no one has asked if I had groin protection.  In "The 
flowers of Souvence" (an Outlands publication about women warriors, 
which I don't know if it is still in production) they had an article 
about making a diaper like groin protection (I would be happy to send 
you a copy or deliver one if you attend dragon'smist or 3M fighter 
practice).  Some people also use karate protection. Although the 
plumbing is not on the outside I am not looking forward to taking a hit 
in that area.  Hope this is of some help.  E-mail me for more info.

In Service Jill Blackhorse


From: pp003060 at interramp.com (Laurie Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Beginner's Armor for Women
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 1995 15:24:18 -0500
Organization: the Polyhedron Group

Having been a women fighter for over ten years now I have found that the
brest protection to be next to usless and I am a C cup. Though good groin
protection is a must, raising shots anyone?  :0 .  I wear a quilted
gamboson under chain, elbows, mitten gauntlets, articulated legs, and an
open face bassenett helm all of steel, and a leather gouge. I would like
to make a recomdation subscribe to the Flower of Sovence write Countess
Cymber of the Darkwater (KC Lancaster) at 6633 Irving St. Denver CO
80221-2137, for current subscription costs.  Its a good on going dicussion
on women and fighting.
-- 
Laurie E. W. Brandt|aka Her Ladyship, Pegasus Devona, A.o.A., G.d's.
5814 Gloucester Ln.|    Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra
Austin, Tx 78723   |Gules, a pegasus rampent within a bourder argent.
                   |Society for Creative Anachronism Membership #04720


From: CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at smtplink.sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Women's fighting protection
Date: 26 Oct 1995 12:07:22 -0400

I've seen a few inquiries into gender-specific groin protection. I'm a
relatively new-fighter, and have modeled my "cup" from that of a
veteran female fighter in my Shire.  It has also been recommended by
my female fighting friends to NOT use any commercially-sold "female
sports cups" as that they will cut into the groin painfully.

What we use locally (for both heavy & rapier combat protection) is a
T-shaped foam and kydex (or other heavy rigid plastic) "cup."  The
rigid material is roughly 2"x4", two pieces, which are secured to 1/4"
close-cell foam as so:   ============  The drawing here, of course,
                        ||  _-----_  || does not really do it justice.
The foam extends past   ||  -_____-  ||
the rigid material       ===  /-\  ===
about 1 1/2".  The        ||  | |  ||
two rigid pieces are      ||  \-/  ||
not connected so that      =========
they can easily "bend" down slightly between the legs. I've found that
the protection becomes almost unnoticeable after fighting for a while,
and is not that difficult to walk, sit, etc. in.

Hope this helps everyone
--
Eilidh Swann of Strathlachlan  *  Darach Shire, Caid (Ventura, CA)
Christine (Cat) McGlothlin     *  Production Editor, Journals
cat_mcglothlin at sagepub.com     *  Sage Publications, Inc.


From: thorgierr at aol.com (Thorgierr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Breast protection
Date: 4 Nov 1995 19:30:57 -0500

v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)
writes:
>	Breast protection for women is definitely a good idea. For the more
>endowed amongst us, this can be a pain in the butt, but it's better than
>a pain in the nipple. It can be hard to engineer armor that's big enough
>in front that also has mobility enough that you can clap, so I recommend
>rondels.

    As a woman with "vast tracts of land"  I have heard discussions over
the years of what men think women should use for armor.  The things I have
heard for the past 15 years and interesting (and sometimes frightening)
but the one I find most amusing is the rondel idea.
     I think some of it comes from Bugs Bunny cartoons of Wagnerian opera,
and the many times we have seen Burnhilda with a horned helm, long blonde
braids, and breastcups in chainmail.  Having fought, and knowing how rigid
items react when attached to non-rigid (like arming coat or chainmail), I
have always referred to this sort of armor as "cookie cutter mail" because
of what could happen to the breast underneath that rounded piece of metal
(shudder!!!!)
   I wanted rigid breast protection, and so my lord and I put together a
leather torso piece.  It has been sort of an in-joke because in order to
make it large enough to cover portions of my anatomy, and yet reduce
enough at the top to let me move my arms, we took a tuck in the front,
forming a sort of "mono-breast" (which causes enough laughter or
embarassment that I sometimes get the first shot).
   I agree with the inadvisability of "nipple shots" but i think there is
a better way than mini bucklers strapped to my chest!

    Lady Tyrca Ivarsdottir, Oleander, OPN


From: nataliae at aol.com (Natalia E)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Breast Protection
Date: 7 Nov 1995 21:59:35 -0500

>> My solution is a metal or leather or steel round thingie placed to
either side, as in a 15th century suit of "white armor" (see Caravachi's
painting of the condottierri) or one of those German Gothic suits. Joan of
Arc is generally depicted with one of these. They cover the armpit, yet
allowfull motion.

Since I did not see the original post, I would imagine you are talking
armor for the chest of a woman under her regular armor?  If you are there
are plastic chest protectors (I wear one fencing) that are available at
Cherris Fencing in Cheyenne, Colorado.   They fit across the front much
like a brassiere and cover the sides as well, still allowing plenty of
room for arm motion.  Anyone interested in getting them, I would highly
recommend them, can email me for the info.

Nataliia.


From: pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US (Pat Lammerts)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Breast coverage
Date: 6 Nov 1995 21:28:12 -0500

> Hrm, now I have a garb question.  I am too busty to wander about
>sans bra.  It's uncomfortable, makes me cranky and I tend to get a
>rash.Is wearing a bra under garb going to get me thwaped on the head?
>
> julia
>
Only if Mistress Laurel Seamchecker sees you or if you enter
a costume contest, otherwise no. 8>}

However if you are wearing Tudor/Elizabethan era garb, it would
be superfluous to wear a bra.  A well made period corset should
support you even better than a bra.

If you wish to to fight, you might wish to make a leather corselet,
which will protect your breasts and keep you from bouncing (and
thereby chaffing). I have a friend who is a FF cup who puts a
handtowel under her breasts for extra support and absorbency before 
cinching herself in.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Mistress Huette Aliza von und zu Ahrens und Mechthildberg +
+         Ars non gratia artis, sed gratia pecunae          + 
+                     Kingdom of Caid                       +
+        Barony of the Angels, Canton of the Canyons        +
+                   (pat at lalaw.lib.ca.us)                   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


From: kolton at kitts.u.arizona.edu (Jason C Kolton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Armor for women
Date: 27 Jan 1997 06:11:54 GMT
Organization: The University of Arizona

maeryktr at fast.net wrote:
: I am wondering if anyone can point me to any sources (internet or
: otherwise) concerning building SCA armor for a woman (specifically ME
: :)  My male friends who have built their own armor look at my...
: specifications with some confusion.  No one seems to know how  to
: protect certain body parts adequately.  

: Charissa

Most of the females I know who fight use either a full clam shell breast
and back or a coat of plates with extra protection or the chest.  You can
also use the fencing cups under a heavy leather vest.  For groin
protection you can go to a martial arts store for a sparring cup for
females or you can build one out if various materials.  I have seen them
built out of linoleum.  Check with you local martial on the specifics for
you kingdom. I do know that females are required to the same minimum
armour (helm, knees, elbow, kidneys, groin, neck) that males are plus  
some form of rigid protection for the chest.

Cheers,
Jason

(Who learned long ago that ladies hit VERY hard :)
---------------------- 
Jason C Kolton   
kolton at U.Arizona.EDU 


From: Lou Stewart <lhs at ctwok.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ladies' chest protection- Vanora
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:44:21 -0500

Trevor Barker wrote: 
> Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net> wrote
> [or, rather, I assume a lady using his account wrote...]
> > There is some talk about dropping the women's chest protection rules and
> > reg's in Ansteorra from the current 6-8oz. leather to coorporate's
> > gambison rule. Some of us ladies would like to see coorperate ultimately
> > drop the rule of mandatory chest protection for us... OR make it
> > mandatory for all men in all kingdoms. What's the general opinion?
> > -V-
> 
> I think there is a good reason for mandating extra chest protection for
> women.  The female breast, even if small, contains mammary glands that
> render it rather more susceptible to damage than the male breast.
> 
> Conversely, a woman's groin area is less susceptible to damage as the
> delicate generative organs are internal rather than external.  Only a
> foolhardy man would wish to decrease the amount of groin protection he
> uses, just because women don't need so much.
> 
> Just my tuppennyworth,
> 
> Trevor.

Skiing magazine's winter 97 issue of Skiing for Women mentions a new
sports bra for women called (I'm not kidding!) Turtle Shells.  It has
hard plastic cups in the shape of turtle shells that are supposed to
protect soft mammary tissue.  There's no indication in the article as to
where these can be bought, if you were inclined to - ah- stick your neck
out.  :)  Luigsech


Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 20:52:31 -0600
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"
Subject: ANST - re: ANST- Ladies Chest Protection

This discussion comes back up every so often.  I have been dealing with the 
topic since I started fighting around 1979 or 1980.  Personally, I hate any 
type of chest armor.  It's hot and uncomfortable and restricts movement way 
too much.  But I wear it none the less.

Back in 1979 or 1980, when I started fighting the first time, I consulted 
with my mother, who is a physician (OB/GYN), and she in turn consulted with 
 a colleague of hers who specializes in diseases of the breast.  Both 
agreed fully that while getting hit in the tits with heavy rattan might 
hurt, and could certainly cause bruising, there was no medical reason that 
it was a bad thing: they agreed it could not cause cancer, deformity, or 
other breast disease.  At that particular time, the marshallate was 
claiming that they wanted women to wear breast armor because they were 
afraid being whacked in the breast might cause cancer!

I've gotten hit in the breast a time or three -- the worst being a time 
when I caught a great sword going full speed and stopped it with my breast. 
 The breast looked like the world's largest concord grape for weeks, but  
since the sword tip had missed my chest wall, I actually was able to 
continue the fight and fought on later that afternoon.  The blows I've 
received there caused no scarring, no deformation, and no problems.  The 
worst injury I ever received to the breast while fighting was from an 
underwire bra, which is why ladies should not wear underwires on the list 
field -- I ended up with six stitches from that one!

I will mention that I am wearing a breastplate hidden under my gambeson.  
It's not to protect my tits.  It's to protect my sternum.  The breastbone, 
in men and women alike, most certainly *can* be damaged badly.  Worse, if 
you're hit just right (like, say, with one of those ! at #$%$# at ! pultruded 
fiberglass spears) the impact can snap the sternum loose from the ribs, 
allowing the ribs and sternum to do unlovely things in turn to your heart 
and lungs.

Another serious risk is the little tab attached to the bottom of the 
sternum.  That tab angles inwards anyway, and a good hard blow can break it 
off, or drive it back into lungs or apparently even into the liver (though 
this is more of a motor vehicle accident problem).

Basically, wearing only a gambeson to protect the chest is stupid.  It does 
nothing to protect against anything and only adds heat and restricts 
movement.  Wearing rigid or semi-rigid armor to protect the chest does make 
more sense, as it will tend to spread the force of the blow, keeping shots 
from concentrating on the breastbone or on a rib and possibly causing 
serious injury.

Thing is, I don't think that just women should be required to wear this 
type of armor -- the tits don't need protecting, the sternum does -- and 
thus men and women alike should protect it if *any* of us have to.  

I rather look upon armor as a chance to weed the gene pool -- it's like the 
motorcycle helmet controversy.  If someone is retarded enough to want to 
fight with no helmet, for the good of the human species we should let them. 
 And likewise body armor should be a matter of choice as far as I'm 
concerned: plate armor for the chest, some hot padding in a gambeson, or 
nothing -- I really wish they'd leave it up to the wearer.

That's my opinion.  I'd be glad to come up with the medical information 
about trauma injuries and breast risk factors related to same if the 
marshallate would find it helpful in making a useful decision.

Gunnora Hallakarva,
Writing from work
(This account goes away Nov 10, 1997 -- write to me at gunnora at bga.com)


Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 23:05:02 -0600
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"
Subject: ANST - Armor for Ladies

Tiger Lil said:
>There may be quite a few ladies who are not overly hampered by 
>extraneous appendage in the upper chest, however for some of our more 
>generously endowed ladies, if they aren't sufficiently forwarned, they 
>may possibly lose a nipple to a pinch tween stick and kidney belt.
>This may not happen often, but it may happen more often if they rule 
>isn't there.  

and also said:
>As for dropping the one or creating the other, why should men be 
>forced to wear a protective device for something they dont have. 
>Honestly, I'm not sure I like the idea of groin gaurds for women, but I 
>also haven't heard of alot of groin shots to women either.

Actually, anyone can get a nipple mashed (men do have them too, you know!  
Ask Ivar -- I got both of his at the same time with the same mace blow 
years ago and he's still bitching about it!).  But a good sports bra keeps 
this from being a problem even for big chested women -- there's a scenario 
where the guys actually are worse off -- most women strap their nipples 
down to some degree or other just simply by wearing a bra, but guys have 
their nipples just out there. Though to tell the truth I don't know how a 
kidney belt can somehow contribute to nipple mashing as described here.  
You don't need plate armor to protect the nipples, just a good sports bra.

As for groin armor for women, the ladies on the IronRose list (for lady 
fighters in the SCA) have discussed this topic a bunch.  In normal tourney 
fighting, one can probably be safe in reckoning that a woman will never get 
a solid shot landing smack on the labia.  However, in a war scenario, where 
you may be falling over and tring to cover up while lots of unfriendly 
strangers are trying to introduce you to their pet stick of rattan, there 
is some risk of getting smacked on what's tender.

The odds-on favorite for ladies' groin armor that I've seen discussed on 
Iron Rose is what's known as a "female cup".  Somewhere I still have my 
royal dispensation from King Jan that allowed me to fight *without* a man's 
cup back when we first went to the unisex armor rules... these "women's 
cups" are not the same critter at all as the triangular cup that guys use.  
There are two varieties, one is made for women's martial arts, the other 
for women's ice hockey.  Both are made from some sort of slightly flexible 
plastic, and can be special ordered by the sproting goods store of your 
choice, I understand. The "female cups" are flat or slightly curved, and 
have more of an hourglass shape.

Again, the point is being missed a bit here in the armor rules.  I am 
unconcerned about a stick catching me between the legs (been there, did 
that, yes it hurt but not as bad as getting a hard shot to the biceps!).  I 
am much more concerned about possibly getting a hard thrust into the lower 
abdomen, and mashing ovaries and other tender bits internally.  I wear a 
gambeson with a stiffened skirt, so rising blows can't get me between the 
legs anyway, and I have a rounded triangular plate that is sewn into the 
front of the gambeson skirt and protects from just about my navel to a 
little below the groin.  Some ladies use a pair of rolled up socks, stuck 
into their pants -- this is legal armor, but gaghhh!! how uncomfortable.  I 
like my solution, since my "groin armor" --actually lower abdomen armor -- 
never touches me at all but provides dandy protection.

Those who are very interested in these topics, do be sure to checkout the 
Iron Rose mailing list, which is designed for discussing lady fighter's 
issues.  I have subscription info at home, you can write me there 
(gunnora at bga.com) and I'll try to get the info back to you!

::GUNNORA::
(Writing from work.
This account goes away 11/10/97 -- write me at gunnora at bga.com


Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:23:53 -0600 (CST)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Nan Bradford-Reid <ad-4na at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: ANST - ANST- Ladies Chest Protection

Greetings, Lady Vanora, and others:

There are several things to consider here:  First, having taken a series of
very hard spear thrusts to the chest, I am *very* glad to say I was wearing
a steel breastplate!!  Whether the feminists like it or not, men and women
are different (duh!).  A man's musculature is different, they fuild up
useful and protective muscles on the chest which protect them.  Unless we
are Arniettes, we don't, no matter how much we fight.  And as far as getting
hit in the breasts, no, it probably doesn't cause cancer, cancer is caused
by a completely different set of circumstances, genetic and environmental.
However, having been hit twice in my right breast, both equal to a sword hit
or thrust, I can tell you it *does* cause damage!! (not to mention pain!)  I
won't go into detail, but suffice to say if you ever want to breastfeed
future children, I strongly recommend against it.  I don't fight any longer,
but if I did, I wouldn't care what the rule was, I would wear steel
protection.  If the breastplate is constructed properly, it doesn't
interfere with your fighting.  Kydex is acceptable, too, but you must
remember that proper protection should a) arc over the breast area and not
lie flat on it, b) be padded underneath, and c) NOT NOT NOT be separate
cups!  OOH, more dangerous than no protection at all.

I remain in Service,

HL Catherine Harwell, Lady Wife to Sir Conor macCinneide


Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:17:56 -0600 (CST)
From: keandbc at ix.netcom.com (Keith Ewing)
Subject: Re: ANST - re: ANST- Ladies Chest Protection
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>type of chest armor.  It's hot and uncomfortable and restricts movement 
>way too much.  But I wear it none the less.

Sorry...I like my chest/soft tissue armour...but I wear it because I am 
left-handed and really like two swords.  :)

>it was a bad thing: they agreed it could not cause cancer, deformity, or 
>other breast disease. 

according to several sports-centered clinic, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, 
repeated trauma to the soft tissue of the breast does not increase 
chances of breast cancer...however repeated trauma may cause tissue 
scarring to the area which can show up as a positive area on a 
mammogram.  On the flip side, there is also not much information 
available because it has not been studied extensively...there are very 
very contact sports that women participate in that can cause ecchymosis 
as we see in heavy combat.

I personnally have two scars on my left breast from when I wore a 
leather set of armour.  The soft tissue got pinched hard enough that 
the bruise was black and broke the skin.

>Wearing rigid or semi-rigid armor to protect the chest does make 
>more sense, as it will tend to spread the force of the blow, keeping shots 
>from concentrating on the breastbone or on a rib and possibly causing 
>serious injury.
>Thing is, I don't think that just women should be required to wear this 
>type of armor -- the tits don't need protecting, the sternum does -- and 
>thus men and women alike should protect it if *any* of us have to.  

I agree...it should be a personal choice.

><snip>
> And likewise body armor should be a matter of choice as far as I'm 
>concerned: plate armor for the chest, some hot padding in a gambeson, or 
>nothing -- I really wish they'd leave it up to the wearer.

In Service to the Dream...
Alisha MacLeod

mka Barbara E. Carroll, RN, C-Med/Surg,


To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:39:55 CST
From: Lady Jotahn Firesteed <calypso at chaosbutterfly.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - ANST- Ladies Chest Protection

From my own experiences let me tell you a few things. I began fighting "heavy" while I was still nursing my 6 mo. old son. My trainers and Dr. and Midwife all told me that the risks were great for damage to breast tissues while nursing/lactating. Blows to the milk ducts could bruise, block and permanently damage the milk ducts, this damage could eventually lead to a CHANCE for breast cancer. However the chances for breast cancer resulting from injuries when NOT lactating are minimal. Since there has never been medical studies on this  specific area, there aren't any guarantees. I WAS NOT allowed to receive blows as long as I was  nursing and for an additional month after I weaned off my son. So I spent my time practicing  techniques, strenghening my body and learning tactics. When I was ready to start fighting, my  trainers recommended at least a padded gambeson. I worked with that for a while and  discovered that all the extra layers put me at serious risk of heat stroke. The padding worked for the  most part, especially after I cut it short. Tournaments went well for this because It could be  removed between fights and the blows thrown were more controlled. I foound that that the  gambeson was TOO HOT for field/woods battles and that it was often not as effective in these  less controlled battles. I later designed a "chestplate" of a retired conveyer belt of  metal links that flexed if I bent over and was well ventilated, the trade off was the weight.  Leather might have worked also and been lighter. 

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND USING A GAMBESON ON THE  TOURNEY FEILD, AND AT LEAST LEATHER "CHESTPLATE" FOR FIELD BATTLES (FOR HEAVY)

        For Rapier the best thing to use for breast protection is either the metal  domed disks sold by martial arts shops (if you can find them there. The alternative is very  similiar, but made of leather. Use "heavy" armor weight leather, soak it in water until thoroughly  wet, then find a bowl the closest size to self and tie or rubberband the leather disk to the  bowl and let dry.(NEVER USE DUCT TAPE TO HOLD THE SHAPE-IT WON'T HOLD) When dry you can coat  the disk in several layers of the sealer sold by TAndy leather, or you can leave it as is and  it and allow sweat to keep its shape. Do the disks one at a time. They last indefinitly if  allowed to dry in the open. if you cram them into the armor bag damp they will change shape,  just dampen again and reshape, and let air dry. Make pockets in your armor for the disks, this  keeps them from shifting out of place (and rubbing you raw in your bra.) Large busted women may  find that the disks are not adequate protection for the sides of the breasts. For these ladies  I would recommend a leather band folded in half with triangular pieces removed from the  sides  to allow the sides to meet, then stitch together.Again add a pocket to the inside of  your armor.

I hope this helps, I'll be happy to answer any questions or rebuttals.
 
Lady Jotahn Firesteed


To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:41:50 CST
From: Lady Jotahn Firesteed <calypso at chaosbutterfly.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - ANST- Ladies Chest Protection

Groin protection for women has been discussed before with tempers flaring on both sides.

Anyway they can be VERRRRRY UNCOMFORTABLE to women. Can you say rubbed raw?-even
through cloth. They have protected me from one definitely unforeseen situation. I was "dead" on the ground, curled up under the shield when the sheild wall I had been in advanced. I received a boot in the crotch, quite hard. If I had not been wearing the "groin" protection, I would have been in severe pain rather than just immense pain as I was. 

By the way the protection I wore was a heavy weight leather cut like a pad, then covered in fleece to cushion it, then placed inside a pocket in the bike shorts I used. It was hot and shifted sometimes, it rubbed through the fleece eventually and I had to replace it. The biggest complication was that time of the month, everything together was too thick, so the "groin" protection was left off. Anyway I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Lady Jotahn Firesteed


Subject: Re: ANST - Info Request
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 16:25:55 MST
From: "Katrina O'Keefe" <ladyknight at austin.rr.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

What your friend needs to do is go to the IronRose web site. The address is
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/

Tell her to get on the mailing list. It will help her a whole bunch.

Katina Ananda


Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:53:51 -0500
From: "C. L. Ward" <gunnora at bga.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: SCA armor and Info for Lady Fighters

Berengaria asked:
>I had heard that a lot of folks use some plastic type substance that
>can be heated in the oven then molded over the desired body part to form
>a base for armor. Does anyone know off hand where I can get information
>about this?

<snip of plastic armor making directions>

In addition, let me add two informative items for lady fighters.  First,
every lady fighter should consider getting a copy of the following book:

Tobi Beck (Duchess Elina of Beckenham).  The Armored Rose.  San Jose:
Beckenhall Publications. 1999. ISBN 0-9669399-0-5.  Ordering information is
as follows, send check or money order for $17 (includes S&H) to Tobi Beck,
3417 Cedardale Dr., San Jose CA 95148.

This is a book written by and for ladies fighting in the chivalric style in
the SCA.  It is valuable both to the new and the experienced lady fighter,
as well as to the men who fight with these ladies, or who train these
ladies.  Duchess Elina discusses physical differences and how this affects
necessary armor and sword construction, psychological differences and how
these affect the lady fighter and how to cope with some of the nastier
subconscious messages women are imprinted with in the Western World, as
well as providing stop-action photographs showing the differences in the
way men and women throw blows, and "flip book movies" of women throwing the
standard types of blows.  It's a wonderful book, and no I am not in any way
affiliated with the author or publisher.

Secondly, there is a valuable resource for lady fighters, the Ironrose List
and Website, maintained by Lady Grainne Gelleo <grainne at peak.org> and
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/ (instructions for signing up to the
email list are available on the website, or you can contact Grainne
directly).  The list is particularly useful for communicating with other
women fighters, who can advise you as to such critical information as "why
doesn't my husband's armor fit me when I'm the same size?" or "what is the
best type of groin protection for women to wear?" or "why can't I generate
enough force with my blows?" or "why do I burst into uncontrollable tears
on the list field?"

Gunnora Hallakarva, OL
Baroness to the Court of Ansteorra


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:28:38 +1100
From: "Amara Om Shazadi" <amara_shazadi at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: [Lochac] Groin Protection for Girls- Boys if you're squeamish
	look	away now!
To: <lochac at sca.org.au>, <lochacfighters at yahoogroups.com>

To the ladies who've offered help- 

It's a groin protection issue. I suppose I should just deal with the fact
everyone will know my business and just state the issue outright. 

I have an area that is 'unprotected' of approx 3.5 inch Triangle in that
area- due to my body shape. My body has kindly installed its own protection,
and therefore there really *isn't* room for a girl cup there. Really- I'm
not just saying that because they're uncomfortable. I had the same issue
when I played sports (softball-catcher- cup required!) and was given a
special provision once our Coach saw the issue in reality. And we used a
different approach.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because I read the rules as being that
the cup needed to cover the pelvic bone and ovaries- my ovaries are
protected by my body itself, so therefore without much discomfort and
annoyance, can't be covered by a cup- which leads me to if we go with a
smaller area cup- is it going to be technically legal? 

Margrethe The Mender


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:49:14 +1300
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Groin Protection for Girls- Boys if you're
	squeamish	look away now!
To: lochac at sca.org.au

Quoting Amara Om Shazadi <amara_shazadi at yahoo.com.au>:
<<< I'm not sure what the solution is, because I read the rules as being that
the cup needed to cover the pelvic bone and ovaries- my ovaries are
protected by my body itself, so therefore without much discomfort and
annoyance, can't be covered by a cup- which leads me to if we go with a
smaller area cup- is it going to be technically legal? >>>

Ah.  When I was fighting -- in another kingdom, sometime after the  
rocks hardened but before the monocots and dicots diverged -- a plate  
something akin to a hardened loincloth was considered sufficient.  We  
didn't actually have to wear "girl-cups".  So, something in the front  
(an individual plate, or part of an armored skirt, or whatever) that  
was wide enough that a spear thrust to the pubic bone would "bottom  
out" against the tops of the thighs and bottom of the tummy.  If that  
makes sense.

The rules may have gotten more specific since then.

--Kazimira


Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:38:07 +1100
From: "Margrethe The Mender" <amara_shazadi at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Groin Protection.
To: <lochacfighters at yahoogroups.com>, <lochac at sca.org.au>

Wow- I sure stirred up the pot!

I'm kind of glad, because it has created debate, and got people talking- its
an important issue. I have natural padding over my pubic bone, and I know
from experience that it hurts like hell when you're whacked there. 

So I agree that I need some sort of padding, however, due to the actual part
of me that would be a potential target being 3.5 inches triangle, working out
how to keep it where it should be, without extreme discomfort is my issue
now. I have been given many many ideas, and I intend on trying them out. I
also intend to make a plated leather and metal 'skirt' that should afford me
some protection as well- and I fully intend on making sure if I'm laying
Supine position that I will be mindful of falling arrows! 

I didn't quite envision where this discussion would lead, and at first I was
a little embarrassed I'll admit, but now- well....if me being a bit
embarrassed helps clarify the rules and help women like me be properly
protected, then its all worth it. I have been unsure about exactly how
specific to get in this group situation, but after speaking to those offlist
-  where I could be much more specific about the particular issue- I think I
might have worked out how to be protected, and not fiddling with the
protection every five minutes as it drives me completely mad. 

Margrethe.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	f-fighters.msg	Page 2 of 15