coat-of-plates-msg - 5/10/10

Coats-of-plates, scaled armor.

NOTE: See also the files: armor-msg, p-armor-msg, gambesons-msg, chainmail-msg, helmets-msg, gorgets-msg, armorers-lst, gauntlets-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:coat of plates
Date: 1 Dec 1993 14:38:30 -0500

Greetings,
   Sigurd HardTrader asked about some ideas for a coat of plates.  There
is an article in The Compleat Anachronist #2 about making a coat.  Also
you can check out Armour from the Battle of Wisby.  This book has many
patterns from actual coats of plates excavated from the 14th century battle.
I will try to give you some ideas (from memory):

   1) Horizontal and vertical plates:

                         ------
                        / |  | \
                       |  |  |  |
          ------------------------------------
          |  |  |  |  |          |  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  ------------  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  |          |  |  |  |  |
          ------------------------------------
                      |          |
                       \________/

        This is the style of the coat in the CA#2.  It horizontal plates that
     are curved to fit the body in front, and vertical plates that wrap around
     the sides.  The CA#2 has 5 horizontal plates and 6 vertical plates on
     each side.  The top part is 3 vertical plates, the 2 outer ones curved
     for the arms.   In ABW, the number of horizontal plates ranges maybe 3 to
     maybe 6 or 7; to vertical plates also range in number.  There was no set
     number of plates, so you have a lot of leaveway.  The CA#2 coat will
     take about 20 plates.

     2) All vertical plates:

                         -------
                        / |   | \
                       |  |   |  |
          -------------------------------------
          |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
          ------------|  |  |  |  |------------
                      |  |  |  |  |
                       \ |  |  | /
                        ---------


           This is similar to #1, but all of the plates are vertical.  Again,
        there is no set number.  There will probably be more plates than #1,
        though.

     3) Vertical plates in horizontal bands:

                         -------
                        / |   | \
                       |  |   |  |
          -------------------------------------
          |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  -------------  |  |  |  |
          |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
          -------------------------------------
                      |  |  |  |  |
                       \ |  |  | /
                        ---------

            This is sort of a combination of #1 and #2.  All of the plates
        are vertical, but the front is made up of horzontal bands of vertical
        plates.  This increases the number of plates, but might aid in mobility
        as the front can flex both sideways and up and down.

   These are just a few ideas.  There are also coats that have over 100 plates,
and are almost a cross between lamellar and scale armor.  If there is a style
that you are particularly interested in, and you can't find the books for it,
let me know.  I have copies of some of the plans and can give you exact sizes
and counts of the plates.  I hope this has been helpful.

                                                     Greg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Gregory Daub                      |  Messiah College                   |
|  Administrative Programmer         |  Computing Services                |
|  Internet: gdaub at mcis.messiah.edu  |  Grantham, Pennsylvania 17027      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: GS1297%ALBNYVMS.bitnet at UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU
To: markh at khyber
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994
Subject: Re: Seeking Scale Armor Advice

I am very familiar with the second type of armor you have described, in
ffolkes' The Armorer's Craft, I think that you can find a very good description
of the way in which that type of jack was constructed in period.

involved (straight up Jazeraint or scale armor) has several reasons behind it:
1)most of the extant examples that I know of (keep in mind most of the work I
do is with early period armor (Romano-Brit) involve sewn down scales.
 that the bond between the bottom layer and the scales will last much longer:
 there will be a smaller amount of direct pressure on the garment so there
 will be no "pull through effect." plus  I think that the sinew will actually
last longer than something like the standard leather rivet will (which tends to
rust rather quickly I've found).

I too am currently working on a jazeraint (one involving a large number of
small circles based on the roman style of armor known as the lorica plumata)
and in my experimentation and experience with other's armor of that type, I
have found that all too often the fabric will begin to give way around the
rivets, and they will start too pull through.  Sewn on scales have the
advantage of not being able to "pull through" the fac
fabric backing unless it actuall rips or fails in some similar fashion.
For ornamental purposes the one rivet mehod of holding down scales will work
and last, but for continual combat use something stronger is required.

One more thing, if the sewn down scale does come off because the "thread" 
breaks you have the advantage of a simple thread break which can be easily replaced, while if a rivet pulls through, then the garment itself is damaged.

I hope that what I have written makes some sense...
if you have any more questions, feel free to ask, I've been working on
different types of scale, lamellar, and other "piece" type armors for some
time and I might have some tips.

good luck,
Alaric


From: Alan G. <102256.3503 at CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brigandine help
Date: 1 Aug 1995 02:39:50 GMT

 >Were brigandines ever made with the plates rivetted between 2 
layers of cloth/leather...

I've made a rendition of the coat of plates in the Met. From the 
outside it looked authentic. Having never seen the original I went 
with placing the plates between leather and velvet. Now after a 
couple of years steady use the velvet needs replacing but the plates
still hang well from the leather and it still performs well (rides, 
moves etc.). 

I made a 4 pc vest from the leather to completely cover the plates 
from the inside. This makes for a very warm suit. However it has 
never chaffed the quilted aketon I wear beneath (talk about hot!).

Do ensure to sand/file the plate edges to prevent cutting of 
materials after a little wear. This includes the holes that you 
punch/drill!

Alan G.


From: mike at srmdel.demon.CO.UK (Michael Lacy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: (re) Brigandine Help
Date: 1 Aug 1995 20:56:11 -0400

>  I'm working on a brigandine, and I had a question.  Were brigandines ever
>made with the plates rivetted between 2 layers of cloth/leather instead of
>just inside 1?  I am concerned that the metal plates will wear on my arming
>doublet, and I thought that an inner layer of leather would prevent this.
>Right now I have a mail shirt to wear between the brigandine and the doublet,
>but I am thinking of going with mail gussets and a mail skirt once the
>brigandine is finished.  Will the plates wear out the doublet where there is
>no mail if I do this?

I have done lots of research on Brigandines, and no, there are no examples
of brigandine plates being sandwiched between layers of fabric or leather
(although later period "jacks of plates" are constructed like this).   And
yes, from my practical experience, they do tend to tear up a fabric arming
doublet.  I would recommend wearing a light mail shirt under the brigandine
to protect the padding, as it seems was done in many period iconographical
sources.  A leather jerkin would also be a good way of protecting the
padding.

Sir Michael DeLacy


From: sirb at hevanet.com (Phred Meyer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brigandine help
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 22:02:59 -0800
Organization: Sir Blackhand

gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU wrote:
>    I'm working on a brigandine, and I had a question.  Were brigandines ever
> made with the plates rivetted between 2 layers of cloth/leather instead of
> just inside 1?

Leave the inside open for repair and flexability. Your gambison below may
ware, but that's normal. I have made two diffrent brigandines both with
two layers of cotton duck/denim on the outside. The plastic plates were
fastened with two two-piece leather rivets. To facilitate flexibility and
so they don't bind, the plates overlap the plate below it by about one
half inch. If you make the brigandine knee length you will only need
padding (and a cup) under it.  Leave a gap in the plate pattern at the
waist so you can put on a belt.
    
Y Blackhand KSCA,OL,OP
  Omnia Pecuniae


From: pmartin at postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au (Peter Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Brigandine help...
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 15:06:56 -1100
Organization: University of Tasmania

Gentlemen: I have about 4 different references to armour plates being
in between 2 layers. The one that sticks in my mind currently is this...

   It mentions a stuffed (with wool or other padding) brigandine,
"interlined" (ie inbetween 2 layers) with "busk" which is another name for
whalebone or just bone in general. It's from an inventory in the 15th
century.
   Mail me in 4 or 5 days and I'll try to have the reference at hand.

                                                Cormac.


From: DMKEY at vnet.ibm.com (David Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brigandine help
Date: 3 Aug 1995 12:29:32 GMT
Organization: IBM (UK) Ltd, Hursley

gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes:
>   I'm working on a brigandine, and I had a question.  Were brigandines ever
>made with the plates rivetted between 2 layers of cloth/leather instead of
>just inside 1?  I am concerned that the metal plates will wear on my arming
>doublet, and I thought that an inner layer of leather would prevent this.

I am no expert on brigandines, and I have (typically) just taken home a very
good article on surviving brigandines and illustrations of them so this is from
what I can remember about them, and from those I have seen.

1. The outer covering seems to have been made from Velvet or Fustian (Fustian
    is a tricky subject but may be similar to moleskin [that's what it's called in
    England ... actually it's a strong fine woven cotton cloth with a raised nap 
    which was used in the C19th for workmens trousers and is still used for some
    hiking trousers etc.] although Fustian was probably half linen and half cotton).

2.  There does not appear to have been a second internal lining as you
    describe.

What I was wondering was ... what you were using as an arming doublet? This is
where I think you have the problem.

Several C15th illustrations show arming doublets made from (probably) several
layers of linen and fustian (as per the Jack and Doublet of fense ... though 
probably less of them ... Jacks having typically at least 20 layers). In addition 
many of these arming doublets are shown with black/dark strips running down 
the collar, body and arms. These are often interpreted as leather (although 
they may again be fustian) reinforcing strips ... possibly to protect the 
seems/stitching of the main body of the doublet from precisely the wear and 
chafing you are worried about.
 
I can probably get more info if required as other members of the groups
I belong to ... The White Company (1450-1500) and The Company of 
St George ... know far more than I do.

I hope this helps 

David Key,
Tel. (UK) 01962 818575,
MP 102, IBM Hursley Park, Hampshire, England


From: pmartin at postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au (Peter Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Alternative coat of plates documentation
Date: 12 Jan 1996 05:50:19 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania

A while back I found some very interesting documention, which then got
intricately hidden by my parents, and then I just found it again.
   What it boils down to is this: There are a million and one examples of
a layer of cloth or leather, with scales/plates on the inside.
   However, in some places in the SCA, there exist coats which have the
plates between a layer of gambo'-type-padding and the outer layer of
cotton or tapestry cloth or such like.
   Wanting to document this, I went to the State Library, and found the
following reference, in which I interpret "interlined" to be plates
between 2 layers of cloth.
   It's only a little reference, but I like it...


   This is taken from "The Armourer and His Craft", by Charles Ffoulkes.
The chapter is "The use of fabrics and linens", on page 87.

   It quotes an inventory of Edward IV, of 1470: "Item a doublet of
crimson velvet lined with hollande cloth, and interlined with busk"
   The book explains: "This may only be an ordinary doublet, or it may be
some kind of 'coat of fence' or 'privy coat' lined with plates of steel,
horn or whalebone. These "busks" of steel are found as late as the
C17th...."
                           Cormac the Traveller.


From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Armor
Date: 4 Jun 1996 22:20:48 GMT
Organization: New York University

Robert W. Pastor (rpastor at grouper.pasco.k12.fl.us) wrote:
: Can anyone point me in the right direction for armor patterns. I 
: would like to make my own armor (both leather and metal) for heavy 
: fighting. I'm brand new at this and need some advice, patterns, 
: techniques, etc.

If you're new to armouring, simple scale or brigandine provide
very good solution for body, thigs and the upper arm:
cut pieces three by two inches. place so that three is height, two is
width. punch three holes aproximately as shown:

----------------
| x      x     |  
|              |
|              |
| x            |
|              |
|              |

With leather or very strong fabric cut out a poncho so that it's a little longer than your waist.

Attach plates on to the poncho, either by riveting or tyeing, overlapping so that the upper plate covers the top holes of the lower and the left plate covers the side holes of the one to it's right.

Arange plates so that they allow your arms to move when you wear the
whole.

For thigh protection use similar fabric to make a skirt in two halves (a
left and a right rather than a front and back) - essentially, two
rectangles of fabric (each wide enough to cover the leg) attached to a
belt. Attach plates as above.

For upper arms, make two rectangles of fabric which will cover shoulder
and upper arm. attach plates as above.

Depending on the relative attractiveness  of the fabric and plates wear
with one or the other showing.

For forearms, make splints aprox one inch wide and a length that would be appropriate for your fore arm. punch three holes (one at each end and one at the middle). attach to a backing wide enough to encircle your arm. Do same for lower leg.

If you don't know what you are doing I recomend purchasing knee and elbow cups as well as gauntlets and helmet.

For more information (including explanations that require more
draftsmanship than possible in this medium) feel free to write or call.

Silk Road Designs
Armoury
1802 Ocean Parkway, apt D16
Brooklyn, NY 11223

(718)376-4810

Sincerely,
Nahum Kuzari


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:21:55 +1200
From: Peter & Helen Lyon <lyonesse at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: [Lochac]  Plates for Brigandine
To: lochac at sca.org.au

Assuming you are after a brigandine rather than a coat of plates, they were
definitely in use by 1361 as there are two (#24 and #25) in "Armour from the
Battle of Wisby 1361" by Bengt Thordeman; #24 is front fastening, #25
fastens at the sides. This book was reprinted a few years ago by Chivalry
Bookshelf. The book is a rich source for CoPs as well.

Peter Lyon


Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:16:38 +1000
From: "woodrose1" <woodrose1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Plates for Brigandine
To: "'The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list'" <lochac at sca.org.au>

http://www.emachineshop.com/

Still in business after all these years, apparently.  Saw this site around
1999.  You download their drawing program, draw up your bits, specify the
materials, qty's etc.  and "add to basket".  When I first saw the site I
thought -- lorica segmentata, Wisby plate, Spangen patterns...
Worth looking at for fun value at the least.  

Rudolf von der Drau
De-lurking (Suth Moot was so much fun, think I might start playing a bit
again)

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Miller <condotierri_au at yahoo.com.au>
Was wondering if anyone knew of a source of metal plates for making a
Brigandine vest for body armour?

Failing that a decent diagram of what size, how many and where to stick them on backing?

Simon


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Mole <matthew_mole at yahoo.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Plates for Brigandine (Simon Miller)
To: lochac at sca.org.au

<<< Was wondering if anyone knew of a source of metal plates for making a Brigandine vest for body armour?

Failing that a decent diagram of what size, how many and where to stick them on backing?

Simon >>>

For diagrams see the CA0069 (9/93) The Development of the Coat of Plates. It has the best explanation and diagrams that I have found anywhere.

Emrys


From: Matthew Mole <matthew_mole at yahoo.co.nz>
Date: April 14, 2009 7:39:11 PM CDT
To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
Subject: Difference between Brigandine and coat of plates.

Coat of plates
Earlier period larger plates worn for war. Originally worn by higher class nobles as a reinforcement to mail. Difficult to say when it appeared as early examples are hidden under long surcoates.

Brigandine
Smaller plates usually for lower class soldiers (brigand, brigandine, footsoldier) but also used by higher class people due to its flexibility. Commonly in 15thC manuscripts worn by archers and other common soldiers. In Italy light weight brigandines appear as a civilian defence against daggers.

Emrys


From: "K. Marsh" <maelgwyndda at yahoo.com>
Date: August 19, 2009 11:59:39 AM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Lamellar

Some folks have asked me lately about where I got my lamellar plates.  They are sold by Calontir Trim and here is the link: http://scintillaflaminia.com/test/armor.php

I recommend the fluted 20 gauge plates for most portrayals.

Maelgwyn

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	coat-of-plates-msg	Page 2 of 5