chainmail-msg - 1/8/08 Making chainmail. Mail armor. NOTE: See also the files: merch-chainml-msg, chnmail-clean-msg, metals-msg, metalworking-msg, metal-sources-msg, chainmail-beg-art, merch-chainml-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: wayner at otc.otca.oz (Wayne Robinson) Date: 26 Jun 90 22:59:45 GMT tracker at wpi.wpi.edu (The Renegade Ranger) says: > I am once again seeking answers that I have not. I am curious as to what > reccomendations someone may make regarding the gauge of wire to make a sturdy > suit of Chainmail. For the final time guys, the real name is MAIL. Chainmail as a word is an invention of Sir Walter Scott et al. Check any saga. I'll give dimensions in millimeters as the gauges vary across the Pacific. 1.6mm gives good solid links in 6mm diameter suitable for coifs, gloves, etc. This is the wire diameter of the Sutton Hoo suit, but the links were 9mm internal in this case. 2mm wire works well on 12mm links for Celtic/Roman Hamata up to Saxon/Norman period, although apart from the Celtic stuff, it won't be really authentic unless you alternate punched and riveted rows. For real solidity try six-link (each link passing through six others). My wife is the first person in Australia to perfect ten-link. Sorry I can't quote references, but I remember seeing a photo of a six-link glove somewhere. Wayne Dryhtenfyrd (Look that up in your Anglo-Saxon reader!) From: sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali) Date: 28 Jun 90 17:33:06 GMT Organization: Computer Science Club, University of Waterloo Peace be on the realto Before I begin please don't think that I don't value hand made things ,craftmanship,or the joy of doing it on your own, the hard but fun way etc,but as one cannot learn everything or do everything sometimes shortcuts outside your field are very valueable. I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well. Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make sheet to order? Second I have heard that an Italian company is making chain mail "cloth" it is probably nickle plated copper but would be good for dress. I have only found the shark resistant armour.It costs three thousand for a full suit of titanium /aluminum welded link mail(nice if you've got the bucks)custom fitted of course... Also in this book on casting it shows you how to make a mold for casting linear chain ,one day I'm going to try doing patches of chainmail... Imagine producing a suit a day! anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail companies I would appreaciate it. On the more conventional level work hardened alloys should be considered aluminum weling rod work hardens considerably.1/8 dia. with 3/8 hole is difficult,almost impossible to bend partly because it is so strong and also because it is almost double 1/16 may not be strong enough to fight in but for decoration its ok,can anyone find 3/32 aluminum welding rod? Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders it would generate! lowly apprintice glassblower p.s. its not hand made its mouth blown -- sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan Qualil............... From: palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com (Colonel Mode) Date: 29 Jun 90 19:07:31 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali) writes... >I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america >that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing >butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well. >Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make sheet >to order? >anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail >companies I would appreaciate it. I checked into this about a year ago. The company that makes bucher's gauntlets, aprons, and shark suits is Whiting and Davis 23 West Bacon St. Plainville, Ma 02762 508-699-4411 Last I talked to them they absolutely refused to do any custom mesh, as they call it. They do provide aluminum mail to hollywood for mail costumes, but it's not suitable for SCA events and it tinkles, not chinks, as you walk because it's too light. BTW, this comes in sheets, not ready-made garments. Also, the marketing person I delt with had the brain of a brontosaurus and was incredibly frustrating. So I consider them a dead-end/waste of time unless you want the stainless steel butcher's gauntlets. They only sell them in quantity and they're about $150 *each*, not per pair, if I remember correctly, for the full-hand model. ***** Chris Palmer palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com phone (508)486-6667 dtn 226-6667 From: kay at hjuxa.UUCP (KAY) Date: 29 Jun 90 22:16:17 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corp, Manalapan NJ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali): > Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half > surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders > it would generate! I have seen this suggestion twice in the last couple of days. It occured to me that a disk with a hole punched in it has a special name, it is called a "washer" ;-). Duke Dagan in the Middle had a coif about 10 years ago that was alternating rows of rings and narrow anulus washers (I may have the wrong term, the hole matched the rings and the steel part was not too wide). He claimed it was as supple and less maintanence compaired to a all butted set. Those who remember that coif may remember that it was black oxidized. This is a form of weather proofing that involves repeated heating and quenching in oil until you get a fine black finish that does not come off. As I recall he did it at the Pizza joint he managed (using olive oil!). As to closed links, Master Knut is still making riveted mail. I saw his booth at Estrella in 1989 (I missed the merchants this year). He also did some welded mail (a bit less time consuming if you use a spot-welder). > sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan Qualil............... > No disclamer:I stand behind what I say Michael Badali Bart the Bewildered, Carillion, East (Paul Kay, Freehold, NJ, USA) (kay at unx.dec.com, bewildrd%bart at unx.dec.com) From: ileaf!io!kopf!eisen at EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Carl West x4449) Date: 28 Jun 90 18:56:03 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Gwilym, Your idea about rivetted mail making using the retaining rings is interesting, but it has a few flaws. You neglected to explain how you plan to overlap the ends of these presumably heat-treated- so-they-will-spring-back-to-their-original-shape retaining rings so the rivets may be inserted. The plan for making rivets is an interesting one but it will (I have determined this empirically) result in a block of steel with a piece of rivet stock permanently imbedded in it. Lastly, your numbers are a bit off, the 3500 rings will produce rather less than 6 square feet of mail, enough to, perhaps do sleeves and the tops of your shoulders. The general estimate of rings needed for a hawberk is 30,000 to 40,000. This has been a bunch of nay-saying and it sounds awful, I just hope that you haven't sent off your money to these people. I too have been working on tools and techniques for rivetted mail with some slight success. Even if I get it going as well as I hope to I expect I would have to charge 50 cents a link to make as reasonable wage as a mailer as I do as a type designer. Ain't high-tech great! Frydherik Eysenkopf Carolingia,East/Boston,Mass. From: rvd at bunker.UUCP (Robert Del Favero Jr.) Date: 3 Jul 90 13:20:45 GMT Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, Ct Steve Bloch (Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib to us) writes: >By the way, I noticed somebody's post about the difficulty of making >wire in period. Weren't the rings in most period mail ALL punched, >with half of them then broken and riveted back together? The journal Archaeologia published at least two articles some years back containing metallurgical analyses of chainmail rings. The author got some authentic chainmail rings and sectioned them for microscopic analysis. He also did compsitional analysis on the steel. Maestro Roberto has spent a lot of time with the articles, and this is what he told me about them. (As best I remember it.) All of the rings they looked at seem to have been made as follows: 1. Draw some wire with an elliptical cross section. 2. Wrap the wire around a circular rod. The major axis of the ellipse is oriented radially to the rod. Cut individual rings from this spring, with slightly overlapping ends. 3. While the ends of this wire loop are overlapping, punch a hole through both ends at once. (How? Good question. When you figure it out, tell Maestro Roberto, Carl of the West, and everyone else who's been working on riveted mail. Please.) The hole should be wider on the top than on the bottom. 4. Turn the ring over and put a short piece of smaller gauge wire in the hole. The wire should stick up above the ring a little bit. Swat the end of the wire with a hammer. This will peen up the wire rivet and upset it so that it swells to fit on the rivet this way.) A rough sketch: Peen here -\---------------- -------------------- ----\ | | ----------/ \-------\______ / \ \___ ---------------- -----------------\----- Punch hole from this side. As I remember, the only rings that were punched as flat washers were the brass ones that were stamped with the maker's mark on them. I don't remember any welded rings, either. I don't have the references for these articles here, but I can get them for anybody who'd like. But it would be faster and easier for anyone who's really interested to look for Archaeologia in the local university library. The journal has its own indices, so the chainmail articles shouldn't be too hard to find. Vittorio del Fabbro Myrkfaelinn in Exile East Kingdom ---------------------------------------------------------- Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company rvd at clunker.uucp Shelton, Connecticut, USA OR clunker!rvd at oliveb.atc.olivetti.com From: Colin The Blackheart To: Rolfe Von_Duerer Msg #287, 10-Jul-90 12:19pm Subject: Re: Armor RV>Good gentle if it were possible for a mail link knitting RV>machine to be made some one ine the SCA would have one. Thy RV>gauntlet hast been dropped, I challenge thee to find such a It exists, and is patented even. Check out Best of Hammer #4. Patented about 1930, no machinery exists for it. But you've got PLENTY of technical drawings to work from (grin). Colin From: MTG at cornellc.cit.cornell.EDU (Mike Garcia) Date: 15 Apr 91 18:44:29 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings all! William de Corbie wrote (in part): >P.P.S. Butted chainmail: Someone on the net claimed this did not >exist in the real middle ages. But a friend of mine claims that one >of the chainmail coifs from Visby is butted. Is there anyone out >there who has the books and can check on this? First, a little history: In July, 1361, a Danish army invaded Gotland and quickly defeated the the army that opposed them. The Danes them marched on Wisby. The town rasied a milita for defense. In order to raise the troops the town had to scrape the bottom of the manpower barrel quite vigerously. A third of the militia was young boys and old men. Hunchbacks and cripples also served. The militia was ill equiped and virtually untrained. The results were predictable. There were 1800-2000 militia dead. I checked "Armour from the Battle of Wisby, 1361" by Bengt Thordenman, Ph.D. Here is what I found: - 185 coifs were recovered from the mass graves. - Coifs were composed of iron and bronze rings. The bronze rings were on the edges of the coifs. - There was no mention of a coif made up of butted rings. - There was no mention of butted rings. - There was speculation that if the iron rings were not riveted, they were welded or stamped (solid disks). Due to rust, it was not always possible to determine how the iron rings were closed. - All bronze rings were riveted. Since most of the bodies had be striped of armor, it is safe to assume that these pieces were the LEAST valuable ones. This means that the armor found in the mass graves at Wisby was the dreges of the dreges. (The best armor was with the main army, leaving the dreges for the militia. The Danes kept best of what was on the dead. Only after the bodies had lain in the summer sun for several days was armor buried with the dead.) There are at least two very good reasons to think that butted mail was not used in period. Butted mail weighs more that riveted mail and butted mail will not stand up to arrows. Here at Myrkfaelinn we have two mail shirts we ran some experiments on. One was made of butted links by Ken Bender, the other was made of welded links by Robert MacPherson. Ken's shirt weighs 55 lb. Mac's shirt weighs 18 lb. We hung both shirts from a rod passed through the arms and then fired a number of arrows at them from several bows. The wimpiest bow was a 65lbf cross bow with an 9.5 inch draw (~310 lbf-in). The most powerful bow was a "50 lb" longbow that was overdrawn 6 inches, for a 25 inch draw, to 70lbf in draw weight (~875 lbf-in). (lbf = pound force = 4.45 Newtons, us Americans use good old fashion english units :-).) Ken's shirt of butted mail was incapable of stopping any of the arrows. After we had blown eight holes in his shirt, Ken refused to allow any more shots. Mac and I wanted to find out how many layers we could penetrate. Ken didn't want to fix any more holes. Mac's shirt of welded mail was stopped every arrow. One of the longbow shots struck sparks from the iron rings, but did not penetrate. Mike Garcia Cornell Universuty ______ / | INTERNET: MTG at CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU | | AT&T Net: (607) 255-3748 _________/ | USNAIL : Room 321 > | Computing & Communications Ctr. / * Ithaca | Cornell University |______________ | Ithaca, New York 14853 `_ | USA `__| ICBMNET: 42 28 N 76 28 W Alt 995 From: trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) Date: 17 Apr 91 03:06:36 GMT Organization: Open Communications Forum I think it depends on your definition of period. According to Osprey Books (and I know I've also read it elsewhere, but can't remember where at the moment) one of the mail shirts in the Sutton Hoo trove was, upon radiogarphic examination, found to be alternate rows of butted and rivetted rings. Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty convincing to me... Elaine NicMaoilan trifid at agora.rain.com From: CKRUPP at UVMVM.BITNET (Christina Krupp) Date: 18 Apr 91 15:05:24 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings unto all from Countess Marieke! I have here the tome "The Sutton Hoo Ship Burial" by Rupert Bruce-Mitford, published by British Museum Publications in 1982. Volume 2 discusses the arms and armor. Chapter 4 discusses the mail coat, in great detail. This quote from pp. 236-7 may be of interest in the current discussion: "It does, however, clearly show, contrary to previously published statements, that the mail was made of alternate rows of welded or forged links and of riveted links." He explains the "previously published statements" in a footnote: "E.g. Sir James Mann, referring to riveting of mail as universal in the west, says 'the only exception in Europe' is the mail shirt found at Sutton Hoo. 'Minute examination has shown that in this case the ends of the rings are merely butted together as in much mail of Oriental origin...'(Mann, in Stenton, 1957, p.62). ... The idea that the Sutton Hoo mailcoat was composed of links with butted joints had been formulated by the Research Laboratory as a result of visual examination, and only recent radiography has disclosed the true construction." From: vnend at spot.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) Date: 23 Apr 91 00:39:24 GMT Organization: Princeton University trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes: )Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed )repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty )convincing to me... )Elaine NicMaoilan There was recently a discussion of this very passage going on over in the Anglo-Saxon mailing list (mostly scholars talking *way* over my head.) There is a significant body of thought that the word used there and translated as 'swim' may mean 'sail' instead. Certainly, it seems, the word has several meanings, among which are swim, sail and row, so it seems that using this passage as documentation for light mail is suspect. Kwellend-Njal -- Vnend, Lottery winner #316 Ignorance is the mother of adventure. vnend at princeton.edu, vnend at pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend From: tracker at wpi.WPI.EDU (The Renegade Ranger) Date: 15 Oct 91 18:53:36 GMT Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Just a few additions... There are quite a few 'patterns' for mail, 5-ring, 4-ring, suicidal groupings of 6 rings, etc... 4 ring is by far the easiest. In the suit I've been making, I used 14gauge fence wire from Agway (A farming store chain near me). This was suggested to me when I first started my work by a gentle on this group, and the advice proved valuable; 1/4 mile of wire was approximately $19. That will make about 3 small shirts, or 2 large ones. I'd tried using a hacksaw in a vise, with little encouraging success... I found that heavy-duty wire cutters do the job. If you want cleaner rings, try the vise idea, but either use a motorized tool with a fiberglass-reinforced cutting wheel (A mototool, a drill, a cordless screwdriver... tho the latter would take forever..), or a jewler's hand saw. (Shaped like a 'U' with a handle, very thin, small blade.) These are a tad easier for those of us with less coordination... tends to give you fewer mistakes through saw misalignment. One thing I do, which I haven't seen too many people do, is pad the jaws of my pliers, to avoid scratching the rings. Use duct tape, or scrap leather.. you have to change it once in a while, but it can avoid some appearance defects later on... -Tracker From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra) Date: 16 Oct 91 21:23:39 GMT Organization: The Internet Alejandra greets you all.... Please, just "mail." Not "Chainmail". Mail means chain. Chainmail means "chainchain." Plate mail is a D&D-inspired silliness. A suggestion to shorten the tedius process of ring-winding - go out and get a supply of door-springs. Spring steel is tough and springs (!) into a closed ring fairly easily. Jump rings in quantity are also very useful; try a jewelry findings supplier. For tools - instead of padding the pliers, try filing a crescent-shaped groove in the jaws, of the same dimensions of a section of your rings. Avoids the scritching problem, and gives you a LOT more control. I'll carry on a discussion of mail-making on private e-mail, if anyone wishes to....I've made a living making it for the past several months. Alejandra From: rvd at bunker.shel.isc-br.com (Robert Del Favero Jr.) Date: 17 Oct 91 13:47:36 GMT Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, Ct If you're interested in making a mail garment like those of the middle ages, you'll want to do two things that most SCA mailmakers don't do. First, you'll want to rivet the ends of the rings together rather than butt the cut ends together. This means that you can use lighter wire, and the resulting rings will be much stronger and more durable. This is very hard to do, and I know of no one in the SCA who knows a good way to do it. The second thing you'll want to do is to fit your mail garment to the wearer by increasing and decreasing the number of rings in a row where appropriate. This makes the garment fit better and move better, and saves some weight. Here are some articles that address these questions, references provided by my master, Roberto di Milano, OL: "The Mail-maker's Technique", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXIII, 1953, Oxford University Press, London. Speculative reconstruction of mail-making techniques based on observation of many examples of the real thing. "Further Research into the Construction of Mail Garments", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXIII, 1953, Oxford University Press, London. Further speculation on the process and details of fitting. Includes analyses of a hauberk and pair of chausses from the Wallace Collection, with pictures showing increases and decreases used to fit the garments. "The Mail Shirt from Sinigaglia", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXVII, 1957, Oxford University Press, London. A detailed analysis of a 14th century italian mail shirt. "A Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXVIII, 1958, Oxford University Press, London. Detailed analysis of another 14th century mail shirt. "Methods of Making Chain Mail (14th to 18th Centuries): A Metallographic Note", Cyril Stanley Smith, Technology and Culture, vol. 1, no. 1, Winter 1959. A metallographic analysis that gives some insights into the way that chainmail rings were made and assembled. "A Reply to Cyril Stanley Smith on Mail Making Methods", E. Martin Burgess, Technoloby and Culture, vol. 1, no. 2, Spring 1960. Burgess offers refinements on his theories since the 1953 articles. "A Habergeon of Westwale", W. Reid and E. M. Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XL, 1960, Oxford University Press, London. History and analysis of a late-14th century mail shirt from Germany. Permission is given to copy and distribute this list in SCA publications, official and otherwise. Vittorio del Fabbro Myrkfaelinn in Exile Kingdom of the East ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. Olivetti Advanced Financial Development Group rvd at clunker.shel.isc-br.com Shelton, Connecticut, USA From: bobwo at mot.com (DX531 Bob Woodhouse) Date: 18 Nov 91 19:32:29 GMT Organization: secure_comm I understand that there are some mail related questions, and I thought I might share some experiences. I have had success with using 19 ga, half-hard stainless steel wire. When I make the rings, I cut them as one would normally cut them for butted mail, and then I take a 'hex crimper' (used to terminate cables with F connectors) and squeeze the rings from a few directions to make them overlap a bit. A common spot welder can then fuse this overlapping. I prefer to then hammer the weld flat a bit (especially when the metal is still hot). Another thing I have tried is blackening mild steel wire in the forge after the mail product is constructed. This will slow down rust if a piece is not to be handled too much (can't comment on the case where it is handled much). I do not know if black chain is all that fashionable anyway. Don't ask why, but I once use copper power-line with soldered joint. It would be too expensive, but it's what I had at the time. A good day to all, Wolfram Eck a.k.a. Bob Woodhouse bobwo at mot.com Lothar The Wanderer Holmgren Lars chainmail ring size 7 Feb 92 I do a bit of mailing, and what I use is either 17 gauge for ìdecoratory, or 14 gauge for the real stuff. The 14 guage I turn on a ì3/8" rod, and the 17 gauge I use everything from that same rod down ìto, believe it or not, an old 8" disk drive head positioning rail! I ìthink it is about 3/16" or so. Take the time and experiment as the ìring size is based more upon your tastes and strength. The 3/16" 14 ìgauge might look good, but I don't have the wrist strength to do it ìcomfortably. A ring of 1" in diameter would look hideous and would ìhave an easier potential to break because of the angle of the hanging ìrings upon it. Your best bet is to experiment. I chose the gauges I ìuse because they are electric fence (livestock fence) barrier sizes ìand my farm outfitter sells it to me for $20 per half mile of 17 and ì$21 per 1/4 mile of 14 gauge, and yes, if you are going to chainmail a ìlot, it will all be used up and more, I am on my 4th roll of 14 gauge. Good Luck on your chaimailing insanity, Lothar the Wanderer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Organization: Indiana University Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 00:27:07 GMT vader at meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg) writes: >I just want to support the question here... the construction of >feet / shoes for mail leggings is a mystery that I have long >wanted to know about. My guess is that they either wore some >kind of shoe inside the mail, or had a leather sole attached >to the mail. But is there nobody who really knows? > >William de Corbie The effigies I have seen of 13th C. English knights (in the Temple and Westminster Abbey in London, the Musee de Cluny and the Cloisters) lead me to believe that there was no armor on the bottom of the foot and the whole mail chauss was made like a pair of footed hose or the mail was worn over a pair of shoes and held on with points and/or straps passed under the arch of the foot. The pair of SCA-made mail chausses I tried on several years ago had several problems - notably their wieght, their lousy protection vs. crushing blows, poor fit at the foot (due to bad design) and poor fit at the back of the ankle (due to the need to make the mail wide enough to pass over the foot). The problem of weight could be solved with suspenders or points attached to a gambeson. The poor fit at the back of the ankle could be fixed by leaving the chausse open at that point and tying it closed with laces to get a better fit. The lack of protection vs. a crushing blow seems to be an inherant weakness of mail. Lothar \|/ 0 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 03:33:18 GMT OK, I'll bite. I didn't see your original post, but I take it you're looking for references to armoured footwear. I'm not an armourer, but I have seen a terrfic video called "How a Man Schall be Armed"...it's put out though the Tower of London musuem, but I got my copy at the Metropolitan Musuem of Art in New York. I'm sure you could order it through one of these museums. Anyway, there are nifty close-up shots of a man putting on 16th century armour, including sabotons. BTW, there is a nother vido on the tape called "Masters of Defence" which describes the beginnings of fencing. Hope this helps... Nicolaa From: tracker at bigwpi.WPI.EDU (The Renegade Ranger) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Date: 3 Apr 1993 16:31:24 GMT Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) writes: > OK, I'll bite. I didn't see your original post, but I take it >you're looking for references to armoured footwear. I'm not >an armourer, but I have seen a terrfic video called "How a Man >Schall be Armed"...it's put out though the Tower of London musuem, >but I got my copy at the Metropolitan Musuem of Art in New York. I'm >sure you could order it through one of these museums. Anyway, there >are nifty close-up shots of a man putting on 16th century armour, including >sabotons. BTW, there is a nother vido on the tape called "Masters >of Defence" which describes the beginnings of fencing. Just as a side note on the "How a man Schall be Armed" video.. the guy that they're dressing up is Graeme Rimer, (whose name I think I have just horribly mispelled) who is currently keeper of weapons at the Royal Armouries. I've only seen the video twice, but as I remember from a pair of sabatons at the museum, I think they would start with a wide row that ran the circumfrence, then do a limited contraction in the front, much like a miniature coif. Put the contraction over a shaped (well, maybe not shaped, but at least there...) leather piece, so that it was the leather sole and the front piece that held it to the front of the foot. The sole itself would most likely extend an extra 1/2 inch on the sides, which the mail would overlap and fasten to. There would be a strip of lether in the back at the heel location, running up to almost the top of the heel. Note that this is just rom what I remember and what I'd guess to fill the voids from what I don't remember, so it's not accurate or verified. However, from doing some boot work and playing with mail coverings on them, I'd think that it would be a 3/4 leather moc with the front toe and the overlapped sides comprising most of the leather coverage. If anyone knows of a better way, or can thinkl of corrections to improve on my suggestion, please respond. I'd definitely like to find out... -Tracker From: Longshot at f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Headdresses and Colors Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1993 16:53:33 00 Jan 00 04:04:00 From the cutting edge, Longshot heard Lisa J Shea say to All; LJS> I am in the process of joining the SCA and, having received all LJS> introductory literature, am curious about the exact requirements on LJS> clothing. I have done medieval clothing research for local Faires and LJS> sewn a 1300s 3-level dress. Unfortunately, I chose purple, which was LJS> only used by nobles. Also, I have a matching chain-metal headdress (to LJS> the middle of my back) and handpiece. Are these too ostentatious? lo' A matter that I don't know if anyone has mentioned to you yet, but the use of Chain mail (per say) is period. It was done in Poland. ~ Aindries From: Longshot at f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Headdresses and Colors Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1993 17:01:36 00 Jan 01 01:07:00 From the cutting edge, Longshot heard Dorthy J Heydt say to Lisa J Shea; -U> Also, I have a matching chain-metal headdress (to the >middle of my back) and handpiece. Are these too ostentatious? -U> More to the point, they are a 20th-century hippie Ren Faire invention. -U> Wear them if you like, but if you really want to look medieval, leave -U> them home. I would put aside the out-of-period chainmail. Go -U> back to your source books and see what the early 14th-century ladies -U> are wearing. Milady, I may recommend that you explore the Polish (12-1400 era, I think, but apologize that I can not be more accurate) ornamentation. There are some very clear examples of a chain mail style material being used as jewelry. ~ Aindries From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail Date: 6 Apr 1993 21:25:04 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering A serpentine chain can be imagined as two simple chains occupying the same space. Chain 1 +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ ====== ======== ======== ======== | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Chain 2 +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ ======== ======== ======== ======== | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Combined +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ ======| ========| ========| ========| | | ====== |======== |======== |======== | | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Notice the twist in the flat links? The edge on links need to interlace in the same way. If your links are large enough, you can superimpose a more chains. The limitation is the ration of the diameter of the wire to the size of the ring, i.e. how many links will fit in a ring. To build the chain, anchor a ring. Add two rings to the start ring. Add a ring that passes through both of the new rings. Add a ring that passes through the last ring and one of the previous two rings. {Begin repeat} Add a ring that passes through the last two rings. {End repeat} Fiacha From: Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Help chain mail Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 12:21:02 >Hello i am tring to make a chain mail choif (sp?) or hood. I ca not >figure out how to get the round piece at the top. Please E-mail me >if you can help. Start with a single ring, with 8 rings attached to it. Add another row of rings, just as normal. Now go back and add 4 rings to 4 of the original 8. These will not go through two links when you add them, as normal, but will attach only to 1 ring each. Now add another row, as normal, using the 12 rings in your outmost circle to attach to. Then add some extra's (like we did with the 4 earlier). Continue as needed. In the early stages, you want the mail to lay pretty flat on a flat surface. Eventually, you'll quit adding links, add sides, etc. ___ * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229) From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU (Peter G. Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 'idiot's delight' Date: 30 Aug 1993 13:48:54 -0400 I've found a simple way of making ornamental chains out of jump rings, in a modern metalworking book. The pattern is called "Idiot's delight" in the text, and works as follows: (1) \ < < < (2) Hook 4 rings to 2, so that __ v \ __ ^ the middle pair connects the ----/ \---- ----X \ other two pair. ----\__/---- ----X__/ v ^ / Split the rightmost pair, and swing / < < < them back along either side of the leftmost pair. (3) -||---- Split the middle pair along the right edge, ----||- and push the "rightmost" ----||- pair up between them. -||---- ___ (4) / \ Hook another pair through the "righmost pair, -||---- -|---- and through a fifth pair, to the right: ====||= | | -||---- -|---- \___/ Repeat the process of splitting the rightmost pair, then the next- rightmost pair, and hooking 2 more pair through the 2nd to the 1st, until you feel like throwing up... This gives you a nifty chain with a square cross-section. 2 questions: Has anyone seen this particular pattern in period, and where ought I look, to FIND patterns for chains et. al.? -- Azelin From: silbrmnd at acf4.nyu.edu (silbrmnd) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 'idiot's delight' Date: 5 Sep 1993 09:06:41 GMT Azelin causes some of us to lose whatever's left of our minds... >I've found a simple way of making ornamental chains out of jump >rings, in a modern metalworking book. The pattern is called >"Idiot's delight" in the text, and works as follows: [pattern deleted] >This gives you a nifty chain with a square cross-section. Kew-ul! I must be really overtired or something, tho. I couldn't _quite_ visualize the chain based on your instructions (although the ASCII diagrams ended up being very helpful!), so I went over to the other side of my room and dug out my mail pouch (god, I sound like a postal worker, don't I? ;) from under a pile of black t-shirts (I'm in the middle of packing, I'm moving into the dorm tommorrow :) and tried to figure it out. Well, I almost 'mailed Azelin too soon to tell him it wasn't working, but after taking apart my first attempt and trying over, I got it to work. I continued it for 5-ish reps, and it really does look nice. (The main problem, epecially since it's a small piece, is that the ends keep trying to come undone... I ended up sticking a screw thru each end). Sometime later, maybe when I'm more awake, I think I'm gonna make up a few of these and try to figure out the most "esthetically pleasing" way to connect these up for armoring purposes... Get your designer mail shirts! :) (Actually, make one really (_really_) long chain, turn it into a spiral, connect the "sides"... Hmm, could work... Anyone interested in an extra thick mail coif? :) >2 questions: Has anyone seen this particular pattern in period, >and where ought I look, to FIND patterns for chains et. al.? Ditto that. (the second part, anyways...) I'm interested especially in *period* variations of the basic 4-in-1 pattern, as well as other interesting designs that people have come up with (but if possible please tell me if it was a "legitimate" period pattern, or just something that looks cool). And what about using thinner wire and smaller rings for jewelery? (Is this period? What type/gauge wire is generally used? (I use 14 gauge galvanized steel for armor-type things) Also, what do people generally use for different colored rings? (wire hangers'll work for a silver/gold pattern, but a friend of mine noticed that someone had a red mail shirt at Pennsic... (dunno if it was all red, or just had some red rings in it, we figure paint is too impractical (you'd have to repaint it way too often)) Definitely time to get to sleep, it's almost 5... -GAbrielle the Clueless ---------------------------------| DarkMage, the Clueless Wonder |----------------------------------- silbrmnd at acf4.nyu.edu | Gabrielle (Don't call me Gabby!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: willey at ftp.com (Richard E. Willey) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: rivetted chain Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1993 17:47:54 Organization: FTP Software, North Andover, Massachusetts With all due respect to Tracker, I'm not sure that you've ever tried making rivetted mail. You can not simply rivet all the open links together in one large batch. I'e been working on and off on some rivetted mail for quite some time now, and it it virtually impossible to get the mail to lie properly so that you can rivet more than one ring at once. I loose a large amount of time shifting mail around and changing tools. I can close ad rivet about 1 run every 10 seconds, and this is a significant gain over what i used to do. Adding and closing open rings is much slower. hrothgar Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: lbell at nyx.cs.du.edu (Larry Bell) Subject: Re: Chain coifs... Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept. Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 19:42:18 GMT Pete Eidet wrote: >Well someone asked =) > > The general 4 in 1 pattern is _slightly_ changed to start the top of the >coif: > > 1. Start with a slightly bigger ring for the 'top' of the coif, then >put 7 or so rings attached to it (as space allows) and set it down so that you >can see the rings overlap in the "usual" way. Actually, you can start with a regular sized central ring with seven attached to it. That's how I do most of my coifs. The 'extra' rings added to increase the diameter are sometimes called idle rings. Then can also be used to decrease the diameter, as in the waist of a hauberk. Larry Bell - Sir William of Bellwood lb5532 at swuts.sbc.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: petee at icebox.iceonline.com (Pete Eidet) Subject: Chain coifs... Organization: ICE Online Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:18:15 GMT Well someone asked =) The general 4 in 1 pattern is _slightly_ changed to start the top of the coif: 1. Start with a slightly bigger ring for the 'top' of the coif, then put 7 or so rings attached to it (as space allows) and set it down so that you can see the rings overlap in the "usual" way. 2. Start the nnormal process of threading 1 link through 2 which are already there (forget that they are attached in a circle) 3. For every row which is done (remember the rows are now done in CIRCLES) add 4 extra links to the outside (at present) row at even spaces [i.e. one at "north" one at "south" one at "east" etc.] so that the circle is slowly expanding. 4. When you have a large enough space to crown your head i.e. fits like a 'baseball' cap (without the visor of course! =) stop adding the extra 4 links per row, and leave a space large enough for your face (well you do want to see of course ;) 5. When this "tube" part of the coif reaches your shoulders, connect the front of the coif again at the bottem (adding in a sufficient number of rows of course) and once again add the 4 extra links per row, so that it may fit over your shoulders properly. 6. Continue to the length you wish, and trim the bottem with any pattern you desire (embattled, plain, whatever) 7. Don't forget padding underneath if you like your hair/eyebrows/ears Aleron Hauk DeMoion From: design at MCS.COM (Ann Feeney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 11 Mar 1994 12:33:24 -0600 Organization: /usr/lib/news/organi[sz]ation Jesse Ephraim wrote: >In article , >John Groseclose wrote: >>Jesse Ephraim (jpe at metronet.com) wrote: >>: I'm sure that you've all heard this a billion times, but I'd like to >>: learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on >>: the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book >>: suggestions? >> >>: Thanks! Note: I have never made chain mail from these directions. Oppi Untracts Jewelry Concepts and Technology, has a good section on chain mail. Untract is a metalworking GOD (IMHO), and the directions and patterns look superb. Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings supposedly sells a videotape. They have an 800 number--call the 800 directory. (I used to have their number memorized, but forgot it just when I need it...) They sell good stuff. Ann Feeney Enid Wriggleworth >Jesse Ephraim | But what is truth? >jpe at metronet.com | Is truth unchanging law? Ann Feeney |Any similarity of opinions between Ligature, Inc. |those expressed in this posting (312)648-1233 |and anybody else's, including design at mcs.com |Ligature, Inc. is purely coincidental. From: lyoness at panix.com (Jean Krevor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 14 Mar 1994 01:21:45 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC >>>Jesse Ephraim (jpe at metronet.com) wrote: >>>: I'm sure that you've all heard this a billion times, but I'd like to >>>: learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on >>>: the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book >>>: suggestions? Ann Feeney replied: >Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings supposedly sells a >videotape. They have an 800 number--call the 800 directory. (I used to >have their number memorized, but forgot it just when I need it...) They >sell good stuff. Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings' number is 800-533-3299. I haven't gotten a recent catalogue from them, so I don't know about a chain mail video. <> :-) Slainte'-- Elizabeth/Jean Jean Elizabeth Krevor | Nothing is better than eternal happiness. lyoness at panix.com | And, a ham sandwich is better than nothing. Associate member, SFLAaE/BS | Therefore, a ham sandwich must be better Lady Elizabeth Camerona | than eternal happiness. nicIan of Clan Mitchell | I'll have a ham sandwich, please! Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: dwhite at atl.com (David White) Subject: Re: chain mail Organization: Advanced Technology Laboratories, Bothell, WA, USA Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:26:54 GMT > Not to nit-pick. . . > > . .but the terminology "Chain-mail" is incorrect, there is no such thing as >Chain-Mail, that is a common misconception stemming from Dungeons and Dragons >players. > >The correct terminology is just Mail. Also thought i'd mention that Plate >Mail, therefore, is a contradiction in terms, the correct term is Plate >armor. Gary Gygax may have been very creative, but his game is not a basis >for historical observations. > >Eros A Glossary Of The Construction, Decoration And Use Of Arms And Armor In All Countries And In All Times by George Cameron Stone (an authoritative tome, frequently qouted) has the following heading for mail.... MAIL, CHAIN MAIL. He lists a large varieties of mail made with interlocking rings of various paterns and small plates linked with rings. The armour using small plates seams to have been used mostly in Asia. An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour by Charles Henry Ashdown tracts the evolution of armour as follows... CHAIN MAIL PERIOD, 1180-1250 CHAIN MAIL REINFORCED, 1250-1325 THE CYCLAS PERIOD, 1325-1335 THE STUDDED AND SPLINTED ARMOUR PERIOD, 1335-1360 THE CAMAIL AND JUPON PERIOD, 1360-1410 THE SURCOATLESS PERIOD, 1410-1430 THE TABARD PERIOD, 1430-1500 THE TRANSITION PERIOD, 1500-1525 MAXIMILLIAN ARMOUR, 1525-1600 THE HALF-ARMOUR PERIOD AFTER 1600 I think Gary invented the term "plate mail" wich refers to chain mail reinforced with rigid armour. this apears in the 13th century and is used in increasingly improved forms until 1400 or so when full plate makes its appearence. -David W Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: chain mail Summary: Ashdown is not reliable Organization: Indiana University Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 03:58:26 GMT (Michael H Cole) writes: >jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes... >> >>>An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour >>> >>>by Charles Henry Ashdown >>> >>That doesn't necessarily affect any of the other stuff Charles Henry >>Ashdown says, but he does seem to be wrong on the early cutoff of the >>period during which linked metal rings were used as armour. That's probably not the only error in Ashdown. Run, do not walk, to find Claud Blair's European Armour. Ashdown is one of the sources notorious for misinformation. Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 15 Mar 1994 16:18:15 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln : learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on : the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book : suggestions? Try "The Complete Metalsmith" , in print, ~$8-13 -- Tim Myers Toli the Curious University of Nebraska-Lincoln Shire of Mag Mor tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu Kingdom of Calontir Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard Subject: (Chain)mail terms, Romans Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 14 Mar 1994 17:58:42 GMT This is in response to a number of postings about mail and about Romans. The Romans used mail extensively, some of it very fine. I have handled excavated pieces with ring dimensions of about 7 mm.external diameter, 1 mm wire. I think there is evidence for far finer, although probably ornamental rather than functional. There is sculptural representation of mail on Roman monuments and gravestones and a variety of conventions are used to show it: cross-hatching, zig-zags, dot-and-circles, dots, etc. Roman sculpture was also painted and it seems likely that a lot of otherwise blank tunic-like garments on sculptures were painted as mail. These have been interpreted in the past as leather tunics. It seems likely that mail was the most common form of armour in the Roman army from the late Republic through to, well, whatever cut-off point you want :-) It was used by legionaries, auxiliaries - foot and cavalry -and by officers and *NCOs*. The use of the more famous *lorica segmentata* (the strips of iron around the body and over the shoulder) was restricted in its period of use, the type of user and geographical location. As a type of armour, it was only used for maybe two hundred and fifty years, does not seem to have been used by the Auxiliaries (who made up roughly half the army), or to have been popular in the East (where scale and lamellar armour co-existed with mail). The term *lorica hamata* was used for a mail *shirt*; the term *lorica squamata*, referred to a scale *shirt* and a third term *lorica plumata* possibly referred to mail with tiny scales laced through neighbouring links before riveting, producing a combined scale/mail garment. In discussing various terms, I think its important to differentiate between the armour itself as a garment and the material from which it is made. Thus, the only (medieval) period term I have seen for mail is mail (or maille, etc). The Saxons and Vikings seems to have had no special word for the material itself, but called the *garments* hauberks and byrnies etc (developing into the medieval term haubergeon, etc). These terms seem to imply mail construction in the way they are used (poetically referred to as *Odin?s Web* or the *War Net*), but equally, scale existed, so the terms may exceptionally cover garments made of either construction. As information about the term itself, the Romans seem to have picked up mail from the Celts, possibly from Gaul, but their name for it is unknown. For the Romans, the material was called *macula*. This is derived from the Latin for *net*, which itself comes from the term for *dots* - the idea being that a fishing net from a distance is most visible as its knots. It is this term *macula* which becomes *maglia* in Italian and *mailles* in French and eventually *mail* in English, by the thirteenth century. The term *chain-mail* first appears in the late eighteenth century. The authority for this derivation is the respected medieval arms expert Ewert Oakshott, albeit from one of his childrens books, *Dark Age Warrior* (which is what was handy :-)). For further information on Roman kit, look at an excellent standard work, H.Russell Robinson *Armour of Imperial Rome*. (That one is a grown-ups book, honestly!). IMHO the point is *mail*, or *scales* ( - or *wool* - ) is what a garment is made *from* and not really the name of the garment itself. *Mail* is not an exact synonym for *armour*, so I don?t really see how you can qualify it, as with *plate-mail* or *scale-mail*. On the other hand, terms like ring-mail etc are now generally known to a number of people from D&D or wherever and might be considered as modern names for the stuff. I don?t like the terms, I think they grate on the ear, but that is just me :-). I think it all depends if you see your kit being used in a hobby in the modern world or in the recreation of a world. Since I try and re-enact a period, I will try and use period terms when I can. I hope this was of interest. Bill Hubbard Non-SCA, but the same kind of thing (I think). Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard Subject: Re: Help wanted for a long-sleeved hauberk Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:47:39 GMT I would say make your sleeves so that the ring-row direction continues on unbroken - the first of your alternatives. I am not aware of any byrnies which change construction halfway down the sleeve. The *Shirt of St Wenceslaus* in Prague, attributed to the thirteenth century, has sleeves in this unbroken fashion if you need a firm, early, referent. As for shaping the sleeve, take measurements around your gambeson so that you get an idea of where and how quickly it should taper. Work out roughly how many rows you will need and how many *columns* you will need at arm-pit and wrist. Then with the measurements you can easily work out a plan of *drop one row every X columns above the elbow, one row every Y columns below the elbow* To taper it, the way it is done on period examples is to scatter *dropped* rings into the mesh as you work down the arm. That is, do not put all of the 3-in-1 or 5-in-1 discontinuities in one place, or in one line etc. If they are scattered throughout the arm, then the pattern is maintained and the flexibility is not compromised. The joining of the links under the arm is a bit awkward as you are joining rows going at right angles to one another. I would suggest to try and maintain some semblance of the pattern for as long a possible, and just bodge it in the very arm pit :-) For this reason don't make the arm-hole too tight, or else it bunches up in your arm-pit. I hope this helps - Good Luck! Bill Hubbard From: pyuaq at csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G S Sutherland) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Help wanted for a long-sleeved hauberk Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:16:11 -0000 Organization: University of Warwick, Coventry, UK I'm currently attempting to construct a chain (or whatever is the correct term..:) ) hauberk with sleeves that reach the wrists, in the manner of a twelfth century example. First: what is the best way of doing the sleeves, I have seen two methords. One is where the sleeves are extended out from the body in the normal manner, as below (where | is the direction of the rows in the mail.) ........... ........... :|||||||||:...:|||||||||: '''''''':|||||||:'''''''' :|||||||: :|||||||: :|||||||: ''''''''' The second methord is to do what I've heard of is called a `mutton chop' sleeve, where the mail on the arm is made in a different direction, from about midway down the bicep. This is shown in the below `diagram'. ........... ........... :=====:|||:...:|||:=====: '''''''':|||||||:'''''''' :|||||||: :|||||||: :|||||||: ''''''''' Secondly, how do you recommend shaping the sleeve? It's going to require a taper at some point, and I was wondering where I should start it at. One suggestion was about midway down the upper arm, and continuing it until I reached just above the wrist. Graeme Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard Subject: Difference between Roman and Medieval mail Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:40:13 GMT This is a VERY minor point, but it may be of interest. hagen at delta.hut.fi (T. Viljanen) wrote: >Yes. It was called lorica hamata, and it was identical to medieval mail. >Legionarii used it as their primary form of armor until ca. 50 AD, after >that date mainly Auxiliarii and Equites used it. Certainly it looks and functions the same, but there is a slight constructional difference. From the examples that I have seen, Roman mail was constructed of alternate rows of solid rings and riveted rings. If you have made the stuff you will know that you can make a byrnie two rows at a time, using a closing ring to join on the solid ones. By the medieval period, there was a change in construction to all riveted rings. Can this be taken to imply that it was *easier* to make riveted rings than solid ones? This seems a logical, but surprising, assumption to me. I find riveting the stuff incredibly fiddly and time-consuming. I think its interesting that period mail makers had their riveting procedure (of overlapping, swaging, piercing, rivet making, rivet insertion and rivet closure) so well refined that it was *easier* than overlapping and hammer welding a ring. A lot of books claim that the solid rings were punched out of plate using two round punches. In fact, although this seems reasonable, I think its very tricky to do this (even allowing for the fact I am only a very amateur metal worker :-)). The rings are so thin that you tend to get a lot of distortion as the punch pushes through. Specialist armour curators I have spoken to say that these solid rings all seem to be hammer welded. Has anyone got any evidence for other (period) methods of manufacture? This is, as I said, a very minor point: the mail is virtually the same. I don?t want to fuel the continuing postings about possible mail *types*: this is a chronological, not contemporary, difference. BTW, my impression is that the average ring size increased over time (Roman to Medieval) as well: however, it is rare that detailed information on average ring size and wire gauge is published, so this is based on the limited amount of mail I have handled myself and seen *in the flesh*. Unfortunate choice of phrase. Should have worn that gambeson :-) Bill Hubbard From: ajb at hms01.hms.uq.oz.au (Andrew Bennett) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need help with chain mail. Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:28:28 Organization: University of Queensland meananti at cwis.isu.edu (MEANS_ANTIGONE_M) writes: >From: meananti at cwis.isu.edu (MEANS_ANTIGONE_M) >Subject: Need help with chain mail. >Date: 12 Apr 1994 04:13:44 -0600 >Ok whats happened is I know how to make the Chain mail suits and about 15 shirts in the last 10 years> but I'm getting lazy in >my old age and dont want to wrap the rings. Is there some where that >sells just plain metal rings? If so >how much? I've found a few places here that sell what I'm looking for but >they want $0.40 EACH for the rings. If you guys can't help I guess I'll >just have to break down and wrap the wire. But I'm wanting to avoid that >Thank you E-mail would be warmly greated as I don't get to read the >newsreader that much >Shiva >meananti at cwis.isu.edu This may or may not be of help to you good sir. In addition to being in the SCA I am also in a metal weapons re-enactment group specialising in the third crusade. Predominantly our group wears chain- mail with some scale and a couple of ring-mail. In one of our standard hauberks there is approximately 18000 rings of 12mm diameter and naturally we (I especially) have no desire to wrap and cut that many rings by hand. The solution we came up with was unexpected but turned out to be ridiculously cheap and quite viable. What we came up with was this: we approached a local spring-maker and after looking at his machinery we found that it could be altered to suit our needs. Most springs are wound onto a rod in a similar fashion to what you proposed but the machine can be instructed to cut them after every revolution, instead of after say 20 or 40. So the result is that you just place a big tub beneath the end of the winding rod and the guillitine(sp?) cuts off the single rings into the tub. The manufacturer we spoke to was happy to do this for us, at whatever guage we required provided we order in lots of 50000 rings or more to make it economically viable for him too. It costs us about $40 (Australian) for 10000 rings so thats really GREAT value. Hope that this is of help to you. Crispin D'Andreuse (Andrew Bennett. Dept. HMS Uni of Qld) Brother of the Temple. Principality of Lochach, West Kingdom. From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.nyu.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chain mail armour Date: 9 Sep 1994 15:47:17 GMT Organization: New York University, New York, NY bakerd2338 at cobra.uni.edu writ Description of chainmail manufacture - emphasis on uniformness. > > Gospodin Ivan "the Trouncable" Kuzmovich Velikov > This called to mind a recent trip to London. (if I forgot to thank anyone for sightseeing hints THANK YOU!!!) THe "oriental" armour exhibit was down for some junk jewelry exhibit, but the Armoury folks were real nice and let me look at stuff I expressly thought to ask about (you gotta be a student and have a real reason you wanna look at the stuff, the Law student thing wasn't very usefull but the armoury aprenticeship was ). Anyway, one thing I noticed as I lovingly fondled 16th century shirts of mail was that uniformity of mail did not seem to be much of a value. It was far less uniform then the butted mail we usually make. On the other hand, I've since made a few riveted links and they wind up with the same degree of variation as the originals (though I can't say for sure unless I make a whole shirt - and I'm not about to do that unless somone pays an awfull lot of money - Up front :-) Hey, are theree grants available for this sort of thing?) Peace! Nahum haKuzar From: tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail sizes, period Date: 19 Oct 1994 01:07:49 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Charles Lamb (clamb at pipeline.com) wrote: : Does anyone know what size wire and rings were commonly used : for period mail. I've seen plenty of mail but the period stuff : is usually secured behind glass where its very hard to measure. Pardon the delay in responding to the question posed, re: what size were the rings of mail in period. First, obviously they differed. Generally rings in mail got smaller as time went on and both metal and metalsmith got better. The following data comes from articles written by E. Martin Burgess, a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries(England) and published in the Antiquaries Journal. I quote from "The Mail Shirt From Sinigaglia" This mail shirt, which is now in the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh and was in the Meyrick and Noel Paton collections, dates from the fourteenth century. Description of the Rings Recorded Thickness of the Wire(in inches to the nearest thousandth) Whole rings Iron: 0.108,0.110,0.105,0.115,0.103 Recorded variation: 0.012 Average: 0.108 Brass: 0.1085,0.091,0.097,0.080,0.076 Recorded variation: 0.021 Average: 0.086 Riveted rings Iron: 0.056,0.060,0.058,0.062,0.067 Recorded variation: 0.011 Average: 0.061 Brass: 0.063,0.061,0.062,0.065,0.064 Recorded variation: 0.004 Average: 0.063 External Diameter of Rings(parallel to rivet joint) Whole rings Iron: 0.603,0.607,0.597,0.598,0.608 Recorded variation: 0.011 Average: 0.603 Brass: 0.649,0.648,0.660,0.651,0.645 Recorded variation: 0.015 Average: 0.651 Riveted rings Iron: 0.538,0.539,0.539,0.542,0.543 Recorded variation: 0.005 Average: 0.540 Brass: 0.599,0.606,0.615,0.578,0.584 Recorded variation: 0.037 Average: 0.596 I quote from "A Habergeon of Westwale": The date of the shirt cannot be fixed within very close limits from the available information, but even to date a shirt of such distinctive style within sixty years is of value and this one almost surely was made between 1390 and 1450. Description of the Rings Recorded Thickness of the Wire(in inches to the nearest thousandth) Iron rings on front centre chest 0.046,0.053,0.052,0.053,0.060 Recorded variation: 0.014 Average: 0.053 Iron rings on centre back 0.045,0.043,0.048,0.044,0.043 Recorded variation: 0.005 Average: 0.045 Iron rings in crotch flap 0.036,0.037,0.043,0.052,0.042 Recorded variation: 0.016 Average: 0.042 Iron rings in sleeve 0.031,0.036,0.043,0.039,0.037 Recorded variation: 0.012 Average: 0.037 Brass rings in lower edge 0.027,0.028,0.031,0.039,0.031 Recorded variation: 0.012 Average: 0.031 External Diameter of Rings(parallel to rivet joint) Iron rings on front centre chest 0.538,0.505,0.540,0.478,0.554 Recorded variation: 0.076 Average: 0.523 Iron rings on centre back 0.530,0.505,0.515,0.510,0.512 Recorded variation: 0.025 Average: 0.514 Iron rings in crotch flap 0.530,0.494,0.497,0.511,0.483 Recorded variation: 0.047 Average: 0.503 Iron rings in sleeve 0.530,0.501,0.582,0.504,0.485 Recorded variation: 0.094 Average: 0.520 Brass rings in lower edge 0.484,0.472,0.494,0.528,0.520 Recorded variation: 0.056 Average: 0.500 End quote. Hope this helps. Tim Myers Toli the Curious University of Nebraska-Lincoln Shire of Mag Mor tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu Kingdom of Calontir From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: What to make chain mail out of Date: 15 May 1995 08:08:35 GMT sjernigen at aol.com (SJernigen) wrote: >I agree with the use of stainless wire (308) it is good stuff! dont waist >your time on >galvanized wire it will rust up and look REAL period in the long run and >the only way to bring back that "knightly shine" is to sand blast the >mail( a whole lot of work) so IMHO and exp. making camails and coifs use >tiny little rings and spend the extra cash for stainless. Polishing your mail isn't that difficult... Throw your mail into a 5-gallon paint bucket with a recloseable lid, add several handfuls of fine sand, a cup or so of vinegar, and roll it down a hill a few times. Add two cups of baking soda or powdered lime, and roll it down the hill a few more times. The vinegar and sand will remove the rust, and the baking soda will neutralize the vinegar. Then, add a few cups of crankcase oil, and roll it around a little more. Cleans it up very nicely, and there are references available showing "rolling the mail in a barrel with some sand" as being a period practice for cleaning the stuff. John Groseclose From: Malcolm Grandis Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Tools of the Armourer Date: 28 May 1995 00:58:38 +0100 blackdog at netcom.com (David E. White) writes: > I am looking for any info. concerning Armourers tools, esp. those used in > the production of ring mail. Somewhere the original tools must exist. > Some Museum must have them someplace and published illustrations and > descriptions. The Tower of London Armoury in the UK. One of the neat thigs I have seen is a punch and die set which with one blow shapes the (red hot) wire into the correct not-quite circle and flattens the ends whilst marking the centres for the rivet hole (original tool). _ _ Try Our / / Web Page http://ifu.net/html/culture/celts/thecelts.htm \_ELTI\_ From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: making chain mail. HELP! Date: 11 Jul 1995 03:37:10 GMT Organization: New York University Chris Petersen (xris at halcyon.com) wrote: : I have a specific question... which way does the grain go? I thought it : should be up/down so that it stretches horizontally, but a friend thought : he saw the grain going horizontally on some movie (then it stretches : vertically and "opens" up the rings, and looks more like the way ring or : scale mail is done)... I'm beginning to think that this works either way, : which is best? : --- --- --- : Chris Petersen xris at halcyon.com I'm not sure what you mean by "grain". Historically, most nations have worn mail in the following fashion: ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( Romans wore it 90 degrees revolved - ^-^-^-^-^-^ ^-^-^-^-^-^ ^-^-^-^-^-^ ^-^-^-^-^-^ ^-^-^-^-^-^ i don't know if I've made a good job of illustrating (not much of an ascii artist) Greek artistic style makes it impossible to determine which way they did it, without any information either way I will risk the assumption that the roman way is a direct swipe from the Greek and therefore that they wore it like romans. For the fellow asking about sleeves - to make it simple, make a pattern like for a T-Tunic, fold over then connect at what in fabric will be the seam. Peace, Nahum From: margritt at mindspring.com (Margritte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: how do you fit mail sleevs? Date: 6 Sep 1995 04:40:09 GMT hoselton at crl.com (Loren Hoselton) wrote: > I am nearing the completion of a suit of mail. The only thing > that needs to be added are the sleevs, and i have a good start on one > already. My problem is this... > On any ordinary shirt the sleevs are tapered, so that the shoulder is > bigger in diameter then the cuff. does any one know how this would be > done with mail? I couldnt seem to work it out so the links would stay in > pattern. Any help would be gratefully appreciated. Are you adding long sleeves or short sleeves? If the only come down to elbow length, you won't need to taper them at all. The mail will collapse to fit your arm just fine. It will probably be ok for long sleeves too, although I have not tried it. If you are making long sleeves, you may want to consider leaving an opening on the inside of the elbow so that you can bend your arm easily. It also helps to leave a gap under the armpit. I believe I have also seen some people run a leather thong through the links at both the elbow and wrist to secure the mail to the arm so that it doesn't flop when you move. One last thing to consider: attach the sleeves so their links are turned 90 degrees from the links on the shirt. One of the advantages of mail is that it lets sword blows "roll" off-- the links will actually turn when hit. This is much easier to show than to describe. If you run your hand down the front of your mail (while you are wearing it), the links will roll under the pressure from your hand. You want the same thing to occur when you run your hand down your arm. Good luck. -Margritte From: Chimenedes at aol.COM Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Riveted Mail Date: 4 Oct 1995 14:27:14 -0400 Tristan wrote: > No, Ffolkes doesn't have the tool depicted. I don't know if there >*are* any depictions, but one could hunt around, I guess... There are illustrations of mail-making tools on pp 66-67 of: Reid, William. _Arms through the Ages._ New York: Harper & Row, 1976. Not much in the way of documentation, but lots of pretty pictures. Meistari Gerekr Gerekr at aol.com From: bofgvale at aol.com (BofGVale) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Riveted Mail Date: 4 Oct 1995 17:39:53 -0400 The book "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" by David Edge and John Miles Paddok, has drawings of what the tools might have looked like, and a brief, yet informative explanation on how it was made on page 176. It also contains close up photos on construction details of many hinges and latches, details of a guantlet, helm, gorgets, an arm harness and a breast plate with tassets. It explains that there may have been three tools for making mail (Four if you count an Iron rod that the soft iron wire was wrapped around and then chisseled off.) The first is a tapered die and punch that would make the rings overlap. The second, a device that flattens the ends of the links. It is made up of two peices that are hinged at one end, like a stapler, and has a raised plate on the inside of the other ends, that contain a channel cut in them to place the link into and you would, with a hammer I presume, stamp the ends flat. The third tool for punching the rivet holes looks like a pair of pliers but with a pointed chisel on one side and a 'V' notch on the other side. The rivets they show are triangular, cut from thin 'bar stock'. It also says that after the mail was completed, the "soft iron wire" was case hardened, or quench hardened if it was made of a mild steel. I hope that this will help you out in your project. Bernard Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: dbullard at ivory.trentu.ca Subject: Re: Riveted Mail Organization: Trent University, Peterborough Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:31:01 GMT bofgvale at aol.com (BofGVale) writes: >The book "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" by David Edge and John >Miles Paddok, has drawings of what the tools might have looked like, and >a brief, yet informative explanation on how it was made on page 176. It >also contains close up photos on construction details of many hinges and >latches, details of a guantlet, helm, gorgets, an arm harness and a breast >plate with tassets. > >It explains that there may have been three tools for making mail (Four if >you count an Iron rod that the soft iron wire was wrapped around and then >chisseled off.) The first is a tapered die and punch that would make the >rings overlap. The second, a device that flattens the ends of the links. >It is made up of two peices that are hinged at one end, like a stapler, >and has a raised plate on the inside of the other ends, that contain a >channel cut in them to place the link into and you would, with a hammer I >presume, stamp the ends flat. The third tool for punching the rivet holes >looks like a pair of pliers but with a pointed chisel on one side and a >'V' notch on the other side. The rivets they show are triangular, cut >from thin 'bar stock'. It also says that after the mail was completed, >the "soft iron wire" was case hardened, or quench hardened if it was made >of a mild steel. > >I hope that this will help you out in your project. > >Bernard If I may add, in an old copy of of the hammer (vol 8) Polidor discusses making rivetted mail. He gives diagrams of the of the tapered hole block, the swage (which was used to flatten the rings, and the punch to make ,the holes. He notes that to punch the holes, he bought a Roper Whitney Junioir Number 5. When the article was written, albeit 17 years ago, the address of the company was Roper Whitney, Inc. 2833 Huffman Blvd. Rockford Illonois, 61101 (815) 962-3011. It comes with dies ranging from 3/32 to 9/32". He bought and used 1/16" punches. If you ,wish, I can photocopy and send via snail mail the relevant pages. Vladimir Blahuciak. From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chain Armour Question... Date: 16 Oct 1995 21:28:54 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science >I've been making butted-link chain armour (mail) for quite some time >now, and have but one question: What methods are used (either modern >or period) to weld links? Oxy-acetylene? Spot welders? Soldering >irons? Any information, either here or by e-mail, would be >appreciated. Gramercy-- > -The Moore >themoore at lava.net (Morrigann Moore) In period times the only method of welding was forge welding using a blacksmith's forge to heat the wrought iron up to welding temp and fairly gently tapping the overlapped scarfs together. And, yes, examples of forge welded mail links do exist in museums! (it helps using charcoal in the forge and real "wrought iron" for the links.) Note soldering irons are used to solder not weld. wilelm the smith From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) Newsgroups: soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mail chausses Date: 11 Jan 1996 19:55:12 GMT Organization: University at Buffalo Dunmail writes: >Does anyone have any information on what formed the soles of the feet on >mail chausses? >I have looked through quite a few books trying to find out, but noone is >very informative. Manuscript illustrations don't show the bottoms of the >feet! >Dunmail Mail footsies, of course! They were slit at the ankle so that you could get your heel through, then laced up. Check Ffolkes, "The Armorer and His Craft." --Tristan Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: jfs4 at bton.ac.uk (J.F.Scott) Subject: Re: Chain Mail Organization: (University of Brighton) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:02:50 GMT gm350 at aol.com (GM350) writes: > I am not an SCA member, though I would be interested if I can ever find > the time. However, I could use some in the matter of chain mail. I have > devised a proper method for making the links (3/8" dia.) and the wire (16 > gage), though I can't seem to figure out the proper pattern for weaving > them together. If you have WWW access, you can see instructions for both the 4-1 and the 6-1 patterns at http://www.primenet.com/~johnj/HowtoChain.html John (No persona yet) J.F.Scott University of Brighton j.f.scott at bton.ac.uk From: gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: chain mail leggings Date: 14 Feb 1996 09:57:23 -0500 I made my chausses (mail leggings) hang from a sturdy waist belt. I used a weight-lifters belt with padding sewn inside, so it also adds kidney protection. I think in period they also hung them from belts. Also, make sure to put ties just below your knees and just above the thickest part of your calf. You won't believe how something this simple will help so much. It takes some of the weight from off of your hips and distributes it over you leg. Greg --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Gregory Daub | Messiah College | | Administrative Programmer | Computing Services | | Internet: gdaub at mcis.messiah.edu | Grantham, Pennsylvania 17027 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mail Leggings: How to Wear 'em Date: 13 Feb 1996 18:41:18 GMT Organization: University at Buffalo It's simple. Basically, they're knit metal pantyhose. You use a garter-belt type arrangement and hike 'em up with a belt and leather or rope threaded through the top rings... just like any other chausses. --Tristan (See Ffolkes for illustration) From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Historical Mail Question, was Re: Mail Pieces Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:25:24 GMT Organization: New York University Randy Shipp (rshipp at flash.net) wrote: : Mike Dunajew wrote: : Second, on a historical note, aren't there examples of mail hauberks : made with flat links? For one thing, I'd imagine that flat links : would be more easily riveted than round wire links. Plenty of Flat (rectangular cross section) mail in period. I don't know about Western European however. In Russia mail of flat rings was distinguished from mail of round-wire. The flat mail was called "Baidana" while the round was called "Kolchuga" or "Panzir Kolchuzhnik" (depending on specifics of construction). All the Persian and Turkish mail that the Tower Armoury curators showed me was of alternating rows of flat rings (solid rings - no rivet) and round-wire ringsa (riveted). Nahum Kuzari Silk Road Designs Armoury 1802 Ocean Parkway, apt D16 Brooklyn NY 11223 From: elezar at mail.msen.com (Jeff Haas) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need to buy chainmail rings Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:41:43 GMT Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI. D. Swan (swan at fox.nstn.ca) wrote: : I've had carpal tunnel syndrome for some years, now. Here are two : alternatives to buying rings that I have found to work for me: : : 1. use a fine toothed hacksaw; or : 2. use a dremmel tool with a cutting head. : : Either way saves my hands from having to do that "grip grip grip" of : shears. Something that I'll be trying soon, and have friends already using: a portable bandsaw for cutting the rings. Malachi von Ulm -- Jeffrey Haas "Never underestimate the -----------X-- elezar at pfrc.org brilliance of idiots." P F R C | From: onceler at brucehall20.anu.edu.au (Andrew Bishop (The onceler)) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Where can I find information on creating chain mail? Date: 18 Sep 1996 21:46:47 GMT Organization: The Australian National University Anne M. Henderson (anneh at vnet.ibm.com) wrote: [...] : Could any of you kind souls out here in cyberspace help : us out by pointing us to any "how to" manuals we could read to learn more : about chain mail. I'm specifically interested in the types of materials : to use, where to get supplies, and how to properly weave the links. I found myself in a similar situation to yours about a month ago. Having decided to try my hand at making chain mail, but possessing no knowledge of how to do this, I took a look around the 'web and found the following link useful: http://darkstar.swsc.k12.ar.us/~davidc/menu1.html This page contains a list of links to other chain mail pages on the 'web, some of which are better than others, but all of which are worth a look. In addition, I especially recommend "The Apprentice Armorer's Illustrated Handbook For Making Mail", which is the first link from the above-mentioned page, and is found at: http://www.primenet.com/~johnj/HowtoChain.html This gives a good introduction to what to do (it's how I learnt). For supplies, the ingredients for a home-made mail shirt are: 2 pairs of pliers (at least one needle-nose, and both with comfortable handles - you'll be using them a lot) 1 pair compound wire-cutters (a.k.a. bolt-cutters) wire (I use 1.6mm galvanised steel) something to wind the links on (For me, this is a length of 9.5mm dowel, with a hole drilled through at each end) A lot of spare time Everything except the spare time can be found at my local hardware store. Presumably your local hardware store is similarly stocked. I have been going for just over a month now (I am also a full-time student), and am halfway through a shirt. Judging from what I've done so far, a full shirt would take (me) 22,000 rings, which comes to ~750m of wire, at a cost of ~$50 (for the wire only), and taking around 200-250 hours to complete (after I spent ~20 hours working out what to do). It will come out weighing ~15kg. Tools cost a once-off $50 on top of that. Andrew Bishop (no non-mundane name yet -- I've just started) From: jeffebear1 at aol.com (JeffEBear1) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Where can I find information on creating chain mail? Date: 9 Oct 1996 03:31:10 -0400 "Anne M. Henderson" writes: >Could any of you kind souls out here in cyberspace help >us out by pointing us to any "how to" manuals we could read to learn more >about chain mail. There is a book availible from DragonMarsh 3737 6th St. Riverside, Ca 92501 (909) 276-1116 DRAGONMARSH at aol.com called Practical Chainmail in The Current Middle Ages that tells how to do it all. Apx $13.00. Morigianna From: caradoc at neta.com (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hauberk? Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:31:12 -0700 HDXQ27A at prodigy.com (Terry Aucoin) wrote: > I wanted to know how one connects sleeves on a Hauberk If you look at it this way, where A and B are cylinders of mail, and C is another, larger cylinder, then connected at the "corners," it's a bit easier to see: )))))))))))) E )))))))))))) (((((((((((( (((((((((((( )))))A)))))) D )))))B)))))) (((((((((((( (((((((((((( )))))))))))) )))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))C)))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( Then, go fill in the area D, leaving E open for your neck: )))))))))))))))) E )))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))A))))))))))))))))))))))))))B)))))) (((((((((((((((((((D((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))C)))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((( This is only one method. It results in the 'grain' of the mail parallel to the body, but the 'grain' on the arms is perpendicular to the arm. You can also start at the neck, building an expanded circle to cover the shoulders. This results in the 'grain' of the mail being parallel to the body *and* arms as is seen in the better German mail shirts seen in museums. It's also easier to put a 'built-in' coif on this shirt. The 'arms' follow like this: --------------- --------------- --------------/||||||||\-------------- -------------/||||||||||\------------- ------------/||||||||||||\------------ -----------/||||||||||||||\----------- ----------/||||||||||||||||\---------- |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||| I know, it's a poor representation in ASCII... Maybe I'll build two more hauberks, taking pictures at each step, and make another web page. Shyeah... Right. Maybe when I win the lottery and have more time to make mail... From: msaroff at moose.erie.net (Matthew Saroff) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Butcher costume Date: 3 Dec 1996 15:30:09 GMT Organization: ErieNet Philip W. Troy (troy at asan.com) wrote: : Christa Fulton wrote: : > cromabu at aol.com wrote: : > >Keep in mind that denim IS period & was used for things such as a butchers : > >appron (which by the by looks very simular to that used in many parts of : > >the world today). Denim was also used by many tradesmen who got extreamly : > >dirty ie. butchers, sailors, dyers, vinters, carpinters, masons, etc. who : > >wanted a strong, cheep, (cotton), eaisly cleaned, long lasting garment. : > >Check your library's textile section for more info. : > > Hope this helps. : > > Lady Cate : > > : > The person I think was looking for mail. I know the butchers gloves are : nice small link mail. (Can't accidently hack thier fingers off this way.) : > Perhaps its the same with aprons. A nice peace of mail to work with? : > : > Just an alternate Idea : > : > Labhrainn : You're probably right about the mail. The butcher's apron's I've seen are : made of an aluminum sort-of-mail, faced with little round, fluted plates. : You see them used for armor in the film, "Ladyhawke". There are stainless : steel ring mail gloves available, used more by commercial fishermen than : butchers, but they are, I believe, prohibitively expensive as a : body-covering material. They do actually make mail suit for scuba divers, but the price list that I have in front of me lists the cost of a 6-1/2" x 36" bolt of welded #5 welded stainless steel mail (looks to ba about 3/16" ring) costs $69.30, so its VERY pricy. The only commerical source that I know for the stuff is Whiting & Davis, 200 John Dietsch Boulevard, Attleboro Falls, MA 02763, (508)699-4411. Someone might want to set up a factory tour if they can (it's apparrently in the Worcester area), they have a machine that "knits" mail. -- Matthew Saroff aka Sfi Mordehai ben Yosef Yitzhak neat "Whipped Cream and Python" .sig on other account From: mmaurer at northland.lib.mi.us (M. L. Maurer / Ludwig von Eisengrim) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Chain Mail---> A How-To guide for Beginners! Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:35:20 GMT For those interested in learning the very basics of making Chain Mail, you can access Ludwig's Chain Mail Guide for Beginners, a page linked to: http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/2588 This is the home page for the I. Shire of Aquilon! Hope you find it helpful, and if you have any questions or comments, write to us! Ludwig von Eisengrim Seneschal, I. Shire of Aquilon, Alpena, Michigan!! From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail gauge/inner diameter Date: 25 Feb 1997 23:09:43 -0500 Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science Catalog of the wallace collection: A1 mail shirt german late 14th or early 15th: dia rings.435", thickness of wire 0.03 A2 mail shirt german second quarter 15th: dia rings.405", thickness of wire 0.039 A3 mail shirt german first half 15th: dia rings.436", thickness of wire 0.041 A4 mail shirt ?? first half 15th: dia rings.39" thickness of wire : front0.052; back 0.034 A6 mail shirt ?? late 15th: dia rings.421", thickness of wire 0.041, 0.048, 0.039 A7 mail shirt german 16th: dia rings.199", thickness of wire 0.029 A8 mail cap ?? 15th: dia rings.242", thickness of wire 0.033 more to come wilelm the smith From: tjustus at sprynet.com (Tom Justus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail gauge/inner diameter Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 05:02:13 GMT >Can someone tell me where I can find a >mail dimensions chart that is documented? Any help would be much >appreciated. The armoury at the Castle Churburg in northern Italy has a number of fine examples of medieval mail. It is well documented in_The Armoury Of The Castle Of Churburg_ by Oswald Graff Trapp printed in 1928. This book is RARE but might be obtained through inter-library loan at a college or university. Some example measurements are as follows: Hauberk #1- Ring outer diameter 11mm. Ring inner diameter 8mm. Hauberk#2- Ring outer diameter 10mm. Ring inner diameter 6mm. Sleeve of hauberk #3- Ring outer diameter 10mm. Ring inner diameter 7.5mm. Hauberk #4- Ring outer diameter 10mm. Ring inner diameter 8mm Hauberk #5 Ring outer diameter 11mm. Ring inner diameter 7.5mm. Hauberk#6 Welded iron rings, outer diameter 13mm, inner diameter 9mm. Riveted iron rings, outer diameter 10.5mm, inner 8.5mm Brass rings, outer diameter 10mm, inner diameter 8mm Skirt of mail #7 Ring outer diameter 11mm Ring inner dianeter 8mm There are more examples but data entry is not my strong suit. The book also contains size dimensions and weights. The examples I gave you are from the 14th and 15th centuries. If you have no luck obtaining the book you may e-mail me at tjustus at sprynet.com GOOD LUCK. From: Bruno Nicoletti Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail gauge/inner diameter Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:02:22 +0000 Tom Justus wrote: > Can someone tell me where I can find a > >mail dimensions chart that is documented? Any help would be much > >appreciated. > > > The armoury at the Castle Churburg in northern Italy has a number of > fine examples of medieval mail. It is well documented in_The Armoury > Of The Castle Of Churburg_ by Oswald Graff Trapp printed in 1928. > This book is RARE but might be obtained through inter-library loan at > a college or university. Some example measurements are as follows: > Hauberk #1- Ring outer diameter 11mm. Ring inner diameter 8mm. > Hauberk#2- Ring outer diameter 10mm. Ring inner diameter 6mm. > Sleeve of hauberk #3- Ring outer The catalogue of the Wallace Collection is currently available, they have a web page at http://www.demon.co.uk/heritage/wallace/ if you want to contact them. The catalogue lists the stats on all their mail shirts (and armour & weapons), including weight, size etc... From memory (my copy is at home) their mail shirts have rings about the same size as the Churburg rings. ie: 9-11mm ring outer diameter, wire around 2mm by 0.9mm section. Bruno -- Bruno Nicoletti bruno at thefoundry.co.uk The Foundry http://www.havoc.demon.co.uk 66 Old Compton St tel (+44) 171 434 0449 London W1V 5PA England fax (+44) 171 434 1550 From: we4 at widomaker.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail gauge/inner diameter Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:37:29 GMT ashleigh at earthlink.net (Kevin Deal) wrote: >I recently "listened" in on a discusion about wire gauge and >inner diameter of medieval mail. One of the participants >claimed 14ga. wire with a 5/16th" inner diameter was about as >large as mail was ever made. >I checked the Rialto Archive and found reference to only 2 mail >hauberk's dimensions. Can someone tell me where I can find a >mail dimensions chart that is documented? Any help would be much >appreciated. >Eirik >Eirik at juno.com The catalogue of the collection in the castle of Churburg has several. _The Armory of the Castle of Churburg_ by Oswald Graff Trapp, trans. by James Gow Mann. It was a limited edition, some 400 copies, published in 1929 in London. You can get it thru interlibrary loan and photocopy it if you like (300+ pages) Here are what it lists: #1: Iron and brass rings 11.5mm od, 8mm id Flattened rings on collar 11.5mm od, 8.5mm id. #2: Iron links 10mm od, 6mm id. Brass links 10mm od, 7mm id. #3: Iron rings 10mm od, 7.5mm id. Brass rings 10mm od, 8mm id. #4: Iron rings 10mm od, 8mm id. Brass rings 9mm od, 7mm id. #5: Iron rings 11mm od, 7.5mm id. Iron rings down front opening 12mm od, 7mm id. Brass rings 10mm od, 8mm id. #6: Welded iron rings 13mm od, 9mm id. Riveted iron rings 10.5mm od, 8.5mm id. Brass rings 10mm od, 8mm id. #7: Rings 11mm od, 8mm id. #8: Iron rings 9.5mm od, 8mm id. Brass rings 10mm od, 8mm id. #9: Riveted rings 11.5mm od, 9mm id. Punched rings 12mm od, 9mm id. #10: Rings of cape 9mm od, 7mm id. Jazerine-mesh-iron rings 4.5mm od, 2.5mm id. Jazerine-mesh-brass rings 5mm od, 3.5mm id. Outermost row (brass) rings 2.5mm od, 1.5mm id. (1530's bishops mantle) #11: Riveted rings 10mm od, 8mm id. Punched rings 9mm od, 7mm id. #15: Iron rings 11mm od, 9mm id. Brass rings 10mm od, 8mm id. (Aventail) #19: Rings 7mm od, 5.5mm id (Skirt with full plate) #20: Mail rings 7.5mm od, 6mm id. (Sabatons of mail) Most of these are riveted rings. Some of the brass are butted. Some are of round section but others are flattened to an oval. Hope this helps you out. Yours in these Current Middle Ages Mikhail the Armorer Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:59:58 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Leather Braiding Just as a note, the Institute of Texan Cultures in San Antonio has aSpanish shirt of chain mail which is fitted with an upright leather collar (think clerical collar here) so that the leather extends under the neckline to protect the wearer;s throat from the rings. The edge of the collar all the way around is finished in what appears to be four strand Spanish braid. This makes such excellent sense for normal wear. I'll bet that leather collars on chain were frequently used throughout period, but probably were either detached when the mail was cleaned, or have rotted and been lost over the years. Does anybody know whether this is so? Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde Date: 19 Aug 1997 08:34:33 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Leather Braiding This makes such excellent sense for normal wear. I'll bet that leather collars on chain were frequently used throughout period, but probably were either detached when the mail was cleaned, or have rotted and been lost over the years. Does anybody know Roman and Celtic chainmail/lorica also shows signs (in sculpture and other rendering) of having been edged with something (possibly leather), on all the edges. Subject: BG - Link Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 20:41:51 MST From: Kathi To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG Here's a link the fighters may find of interest. It has an animated guide to making chainmail: http://members.aol.com/sblades/maile.html Caitlinn Ingen Brigt/Kat Subject: RE: ANST - Chainmail Trousers??? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:51:57 MST From: Russell Fleming To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" From: Joe Bramblett [SMTP:joeb at waymark.net] >On a related note, has anyone tried brazing/welding links shut? >Any hints/suggestions on how best to do this, or what metals take the >heating best in the small sizes used for links? >JB Try going to this site, http://goddess.coe.missouri.edu/~sara/chainmail/ it has a link to almost any chainmail info on the Web. You could probably find out anything you need to know. Wilkin Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:06:22 -0500 From: Bryan S McDaniel Subject: (Fwd) [TY] chainmail links To: rmhowe Here's some more addresses to add to your collection. Kestrel of Wales ------- Forwarded message follows ------- >From: "Steven E. Sheldon" To: Subject: [TY] chainmail links Date sent: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:32:53 -0500 Hamish: You will likely find that the coiling part is the easiest step of all. I'd forsake cutting for winding any day. If you build your jig right, you can have a crank handle on one end (for demos and things) but leave the other end "plain". You can then chuck up an electric drill onto the plain end and wind like crazy! Just be careful - if you wind yourself up onto the mandrel it hurts at least, and can break fingers at worst! A winding jig can be built out of a single 2x6, a 3/8" metal rod, and some nails. All are available at Home Depot and the like. Of course, a 3/8" rod will wind rings with a 3/8" ID. You may use whatever size you fancy. It will help (but is not completely necessary) to have a blowtorch handy. You have to bend the metal rod into a Z shape at one end (to make a crank handle) and I find it handy to heat the bend zone red hot so that it bends more easily. The Palmer House Brewery & Smithy site was one of the first on the WWW to explain mail. It is what I used to learn. You can find the plans I used to base my winder off of at: http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/HowtoChain.html I would highly recommend Sara Trice's Chainmail Connection. It is simply *the* mail resource on the web: http://www.chainmailconnection.com/ You might also consider buying your links from a spring manufacturer. Once you start ordering in quantities of around 50,000 or so, you can get the price down to around $.01 a ring - preoverlapped for riveted mail. I bought my pre-overlapped rings from Newcomb Spring (they have locations all over, including one here in Atlanta). You can find them on the web at: http://www.kando.com/ If you are interested in doing riveted mail, you can check out my mini-tutorial at: http://armourarchive.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001192.html Stephen of Forth Castle > -----Original Message----- > From: mcnutt at pobox.com [mailto:mcnutt at pobox.com]On Behalf Of Hamish TMD > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 4:00 AM > To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu > Subject: [TY] chainmail links > > Thanks for the help... > I would also say that Im not against cutting the links...I guess I just > dont want to mess with making the contraptions fot coiling the wire...if > anyone aleady coils their own wire, and wants to sell the coils, > that would > be good too...just email me.... > Hamish TMD ------- End of forwarded message ------- Bryan S. McDaniel SCA aka Kestrel of Wales Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:25:52 -0500 From: rmhowe To: "- sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Medieval Women's Belts - Winder take two. dwilson wrote: > I make a lot of jump rings as I make annular brooches and lots of other > things with them. So I like to do a few hundred at a time. > I use bronze welding rod as a basic material. clamp it and a mandrill > (Round rod) in a vice then wrap the bronze rod around the mandrill. Be > careful as the rods are not annealed and are springy. Wear gloves and eye > protection. Then saw the rings apart. I use a jewellers saw as it is > more precise and you will have less clean up to do. I now file the > edges so they line up flat with each other. When I made a winder for chainmail rings years ago (someone stole it) I made a much safer way of winding the heavy rings to go along with it. I made a handle for the wire to run through on the way to the mandrel (piece of round steel rod). The handle was about 8" long, with a V slot in the end where the mandrel lay against it. A hole passed from the bottom of the vee out through the top of the handle. It gave increased leverage. The wire wound more smoothly. It reduced the strain on one's hands. It straightened the wire as it went through. It protected the hand if the wire fed to the end and all of a sudden uncoiled. Still suggest wearing gloves. <== 8" ===> hole for wire feed. _________________ _\ _____________|_______ | \ \\ / | \\ / angles more acute. | \\ / | \/ 90 degree included angle | \ | Handle portion rounded. \ mouth portion squared. |________________ _\ ____________________\ \ To cut the chain rings we ground down one jaw of a small bolt cutter, but that is not up to jewelry standards. Mine cuts several rings at a time. Incidentally: Rome Specialty Company, Inc. P.O. Box 109, Rome, New York 13442-0109 www.roscoinc.com (800) 794-8357 rosco at borg.com (address is a couple years old) Sells stainless steel wire rings in a number of sizes and wire gauges precut. As I recall minimum order is 5000. Magnus Subject: Re: BG - Chainmail Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:49:02 MST From: "Rhavyn's Keep" To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org >Does anyone know a good source of patterns for chainmail. >Looking specifically for Persian Designs.(i.e. half persian, one and a >half persian, double persian, etc.), but any help would be greatly >appreciated. >TIA Sara's Chainmail Connection. http://www.chainmailconnection.com From: "NimLore" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Making mail? Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:39:49 -0600 I have been using end cutters for my springs, but recently have invested in the jump ringer from a jeweller company (it is a sizable investment) and as far as I know so far it will make the closest to || that you can get without ordering professional, but hey maybe that is what them pros are using anyway. I recall someone putting a post on this subject here a bit of time ago... that is what helped me to decide to make the investment, and when I spoke with the rep at the jewellers company she said that the person who uses the most blades makes mail clothing (her words exactly) hehe she also stated that he was cutting an abundance of stainless steal rings. When I get the full kit together and have tried it out, I will post my experience. Blessings in prosperity to all them with good intentions in there hearts. Nim From: "NimLore" To: "Stefan li Rous" Subject: Re: Making mail? Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:47:22 -0600 Getting email from others is great, so thanks for the message. I purchased mine from a jeweler supplier in Edmonton, Alberta Canada called Bedrock... but you will be able to aquire this through a US outlet.. You can find out more about one jeweler company at www.gesswein.com/ The machine is called 'Jump Ringer'. you can also call there (800) 263-6106 I believe that they will send free catalogues on request. Nim From: owly at hem.utfors.se Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Constructiong mail - any suggestions for a beginner? Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:42:44 GMT On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:46:14 -0400, "Josh" wrote: > I'm considering on learning to make mail amor, and I need a suggestion or >two on what type of wire to start out with. I'd planned on going with >galvanized steel, but I'm not sure what gauge/size is best for beginners... >also, what would be a good link size to begin with? My thanks in advance. THE place to go is Sarah's Chainmail Connection at http://www.chainmailconnection.com/ Anna de Byxe From: Theuns Verwoerd Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmaille Question Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:34:02 +1200 Organization: University of Canterbury JofAntioch wrote: > Does anyone have instructions/advice on how to do the chainmaille pattern I > will attempt to describe. > > It appears to be a 2:1 or 3:1 patter that when laid out lays almost ftat. It > looks great but I am having trouble getting it to work right. Also, when laid > flat it almost looks like a sequence of arrows facing in the same direction. Are you referring to the 'persian' pattern (see http://www3.sympatico.ca/c_mcleod/weaves.htm )? If so, I've found the best way to get it going is to start off by making a full persian (basically a box chain that you shift the outer link side inwards), then taking off half of some of it to get a half persian. At that point you can start building onto this (I find it much easier to build on top of a chain than to start from scratch). (You can build the half persian directly, but that's more difficult and tricky to explain 8) ). Hope that's a little help - otherwise email me directly. Michael/Theuns KRN From: Wajdi Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmaille Tutorial for Beginners Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 15:18:35 GMT Interesting tutorial type website on chainmaille at: http://www.crosswinds.net/~mailleman wajdi From: Mark Sebree Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: newcomer seeks site on making mail Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:10:18 -0500 Organization: Raytheon Company Adam Dobrinin wrote: > I know it's probably easy to make chain mail. but I haven't been able to > find any web sites to show me how. I would like illustrations to see how > it's done. An excellent site that I have found with illustrated, step-by-step instruction on making and assembling maille is ChainFire. http://members.aol.com/K17Qdna/index.htm Another good site which sells chain links by the pound (weight) and also has descriptions of some of the metals used is Vistar's Custom Maille. http://www.concentric.net/~vistar/maille.html If you go to a decent search engine and do a search on "chainmail" or "maille", you should get several potentially useful sites. Antonio Tagliaferro From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cutting links? Date: 19 Oct 2000 15:08:36 GMT Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus Ohio >I was wondering, has anyne tried cutting chain mail links with a >Dremel saw? How does it work and which blade should you use? I didn't use a saw blade but I used the little cutoff wheels. You have to make a jig to hold the links, (I used part of a broken electric epee blade), and develop a steady but supple hand. When things worked well I could get about 50 links per wheel; when things were bad the wheel would break at any moment. The smell, dust and whine was unpleasent, the joints were *perfect*. Go to the jeweler's supply places to buy the cutoffs; *MUCH* cheaper than the dremel blister packs. I had some hardened steel wire that put dents in my bolt cutters that cut quite well with the dremel. Thomas -- W.Thomas Powers From: ihess at my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cutting links? Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:12:46 GMT owly at hem.utfors.se wrote: > I was wondering, has anyne tried cutting chain mail links with a > Dremel saw? How does it work and which blade should you use? > > Anna de Byxe I and some of my friends have used a dremel, but only for the jewelry grade "obsession" mail. By this I refer to anything 20 gauge or lighter (for galvanized steel), and some moderate weight aluminum tubing, although I suppose it _might_ work for 18gauge mild steel. We have been using a shoebox with a paper towel in it to catch the rings as they come flying off the dremel. My friend and I are still working on a good jig for both containing the wire spool, and guiding the dremel in a parallel slot. For heavier mail, I used to cut rings with a pair of modified linesman dikes. I found these at a garage sale, and used a grinder to take the hook off of the front of the dikes so that they would fit inside of the wire spools I was working on. Recently, I have been using a vertical bandsaw (or so it was introduced to me). With the help of an armorer friend, I was able to set up a steel bar in line with the cutting blade, which means that I can now cut about 50 rings at a time with nice butted ends. I'm not sure how small rings could be made with this method before the saw blade would remove too much material for the rings to retain a circular shape. Good luck, Ian From: Ed Smith Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cutting links? Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:15:28 GMT edsmith at my-deja.com wrote: > owly at hem.utfors.se wrote: > : I was wondering, has anyne tried cutting chain mail links with a > : Dremel saw? How does it work and which blade should you use? > > This guy has a nice page comparing different types of cutting devices > and the resulting rings. IIRC he uses a jewelers saw with a very thin > blade/disc to produce his rings... > (I've got some rings on order from him so we'll see how they turn out) That's odd... somehow the link vanished... Here it is again... http://members.home.net/ironband/ringcomp.html From: Daniel Butler-Ehle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cutting links? Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:07:55 -0000 : I used to use a hacksaw by clamping the coil lengthwise in the jaws of a : Workmate workbench, then sawing. It worked pretty good--it wasn't : nearly as hard on the hands as cutting with wire cutters. But it was : best done on a hard floor--the rings would get flung out all over the : place. The method I used fifteen or so years back was to 1) polish the wire 2) wrap it on the dowels 3) wrap masking tape around the coil 4) let it set overnight for the coil to relax a little 5) saw away with a hack saw or jeweller's saw 6) trim back the tape and dowel as necessary (dowel gets destroyed in the process) 7) use needle files to remove any burrs 8) use pliers with nylon jaw inserts to knit the mail Ulfin of Wyrmgeard Mistig Waetru Northshield Middle From: ironband at home.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cutting links? Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:28:07 GMT Dremels (and other multitools) work ok and do give a nice cut, but there are two problems: 1. The kerf which is taken out (0.020" for light wheels, more for heavy ones) can distort smaller rings 2. The cutoff wheels are pretty brittle, and only last 50 links or so, more or less depending on how steady a cut is made. As for myself, I use a jeweler's slotting saw mounted in a rig I had custom built. The blade is 0.010" thick and very similar to the blades used in jump ringers (sold by Rio Grande and require a flex shaft). As a side note, jump ringers are great for non-ferrous materials (brass, copper, sterling silver, etc.) but run too fast for steel. I then use a vibratory tumbler with steel shot to remove any burrs. Followed by another cycle in the tumbler with crushed walnut to clean the links. Unfortunately, such a setup is a *bit* expensive. I recommend a good pair of hand cutters (aviation shears, erdi snips, felco c-7 cable cutters, etc.) for the cleanest cut possible without using the saw. !!!SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!!! Of course, I do sell my saw-cut links for anyone who is interested... !!!End Shameless Plug!!! Andre "Ironband" Miron Miron's Mail Manufactory http://members.home.net/ironband Saw-cut loose links as well as chainmail armor, jewelry, and accessories. Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 08:37:16 -0600 From: David Hughes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chain maille supplies Joe Tynan wrote: > If you have the time, and want to save some cash, you can make your > own. I use a mandrel, and regular galvanized steel baling wire that I > got at the local hardware store. Wrap the wire around your mandrel > shaft, and then you take that spring and use some strong wire shears > to cut the rings. With practice you can join the ends of the > individual rings well enough that they will join smoothly. That's > how I made my first shirt. I'm currently in the process of going to > college, and trying to find time to re-tool my mandrel to let me make > 1/8" rings w/ 20ga. wire for a full hauberk. Unfortunately, I can't > figure out for the life of me how to drill a hole crosswise into a > 10ga steel rod.... > > Joe Two methods: 1) Get a fender washer that's just a little too small for the rod. Drill the center hole to fit the rod tightly. At the same time, drill 4 holes sized fot the intended wire at the guadrants. Braze the fender washer to the rod at a convenirnt location for your setup. Start winding. 2) More advanced version. Get a 1' to 2" peice of 1/2" to 1" rod stock and 2 set screws, about 1/4" by #8. Center drill it so that the winding rod slips through cleanly. Drill and tap holes for the set screws, so they can lock the rod in place. Drill an ofset hole for the wire. ( Or just buy a locking collar for 1/8" rod, and drill the offset hole ) David Gallowglass Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:17:52 -0800 From: Michael Horgan To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: why enamel chain mail? > Anyone here tried titanium or niobium for mail? Ti links can be > flash-wlded. :) Yup, Some years back, Master Knut of the Mid Realm was out here in Caid, He showed me some of the work he was doing at that time with welded links. One of the Hauberks he had with him was made from a huge spool of titanium wire he picked u at a Boeing Surplus sale. From hood to knees, it weighed less than a pound. Great protection against a real blade, but useless in SCA combat. No Mass. Michael D. Horgan , lughaid at earthlink.net http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ posting from A BRAZEN ORGERY Blacksmithing and Metalwork Claremont, Ca. From: "Jerry Frost" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [EKMetalsmiths] Chain mail armor Two points. First, don't use galvy. Forgetting about the period police who will be scandalized, handling that much galvy wire while you go ring happy will chap your hands till they bleed. You'll also end up breathing the fumes if you actually attempt the following technique. Two, you don't rivet the links. Spread one end of the link and punch it. Draw the other end into a tennon, bend it 90*, pass it through the hole and pein it over. If on the other hand you actually want riveted links just make them from soft iron wire. Say goodbye to your free time. Frosty ------------------------ The FrostWorks Meadow Lakes, AK. To: Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [EKMetalsmiths] Chain mail armor- long response. The stock answers: #1) Don't use galvy if you don't have to, period or not. Galvanized fence wire is for fences, that won't spend any time leaching strange oxides into your clothes and skin. Read the warnings on some zinc-oxide sunblock, and realize that you'd be using about 15 times the concentration.... You can get some really nice(no laquer,galv or much else,that is evenly annealed) in 16, 14 or 12 ga in 1/5/10 lb rolls(i.e.small enough to work with without stock-holder engineering) from Funke's Trapping supply (it's easy to find on line and they're fast, and reasonably cheap) They also carry "trap-wax" which is descented beeswax and parafin with a black dye in two-pound blocks(get a couple, I'll explain later, and if you're ordering wire, the wax will seem like free shipping) #2) Annealed wire-your friend(or at least a non-beligerant aquaintance) it won't have half the spring-back of non-annealed(a definite plus) and is easier to cut. I use the "mini-boltcutters" and grind the outside of one jaw down so that it fits in the coil better. If you use the method with an overlap before flattening(it works for some people...) you'll want to grind a small "blank spot" in the jaws so that you can "reach over" the first wire and cut at the second(like the really chintzy split-rings they give you when you buy a padlock) #3) if you want to go with what(to me) is an easier route...make your coils bigger that finish size, flatten the ends and then overlap. If you have access to a welder you can make a cheap punch for the rings with a bearing needle (like the ones you spill all over the shop floor when changing a u-joint...let a garage near you know that you want some)or a broken small drill bit(where do you find *those*?...) and a pair of largish pliers(with a threaded pivot) or buy two pairs of the mini bolt-cutters and build up the jaws....On a grinder(insert all the safety warnings where appropriate) square-off one end of a needle(might as well do several, while you're at it) and then smooth off the teeth on the pliers. Drill (heat-treating may be in order) a hole that's a tight slip-fit for the needle straight through both jaws. "Place" the needle through one hole and about 1 1/4 diameters into the other hole. One solid spot of weld should hold it just fine. When you need to change the needle, simply grind off that spot of weld and repeat. This should keep you busy in a useful direction, for a little while, at least -Ekk I forget which issues,but you can't beat the "Best of The Hammer" series for really good ideas,for *lots* of stuff... From: "Chris Salter" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [EKMetalsmiths] chain mail Dan Scheid wrote: <<< Oh that is too funny if it was welded correctly it would be stronger then riveted. But because the expectation of the time was riveted mail then they had to fake it. >>> Where's the evidence for this statement? The Coppergate mail attached to the helmet had a combination of welded and riveted links, using the minimum number of riveted possible. This was quite normal from the roman period, but later in the medieval period there seems to be a drop in standard to all riveted, or may be that was an improvement in standards? In theory a weld should be better than a rivet, but it is difficult to make a perfect hammer-weld every time, in fact the in AS pattern welded swords I am currently sectioning, the welds were pretty poor. This was not unusual for the period. I have seen some knives with large voids at the welds. Welding small rings must have been more difficult but unfortunately I have not managed to get hold of enough archaeological samples of mail in sufficiently good condition to get a handle on how good these welds were. <<< The question is what kind of chain mail you want to make? Riveted or welded? Recently a museum found that their coat of mail wasn't riveted but welded. Each link was welded and swaged to look like it had rivet heads. Can we say medieval product fraud. :-))) >>> Or a modern repair / fake? Incidentally, with reference to an earlier comment mail would not have been made of wrought iron but bloomery iron, the work quite differently. Wrought iron has a much higher slag inclusion density and in general a much lower carbon content. Wrought iron came in with the introduction of the indirect process (the blast furnace), whereas bloomery iron was made directly from the ore without a separate liquid stage. PS It is strictly mail, not chain mail, (chain mail is a tautology). In the historical records they are coats of mail. Talking to one of the smiths at the Royal Armouries he said that 3 months full time work to complete a coat, he said never again. -- Chris Salter, Oxford Materials Characterisation Service, & Electron Microscopy Research Support Group, & Material Science-based Archaeology Group, Oxford University Begbroke Science Park, Sandy Lane, Yarnton, Oxford, OX5 1PF Tel 01865 283722, EPMA 283741, Mobile 07776031608 From: "Andrew Vida" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EKMetalsmiths] chain mail Chris Salter wrote: > Welding small rings must have been more difficult but unfortunately I > have not managed to get hold of enough archaeological samples of mail in > sufficiently good condition to get a handle on how good these welds were. I would tend to disagree with this. I've done a fair amount of welding over the past 25 years and can say without equivocation that smaller welds are definitely faster and easier to do than larger ones in a regular coal forge. OTOH, trying to forge weld a small ring that is woven into a 50# suit, I am sure, presents its own unique challenges. In that context, you may be correct. > Incidentally, with reference to an earlier comment mail would not have > been made of wrought iron but bloomery iron, the work quite > differently. Eh? This seems a bit confusing. In direct reduction processes, the bloom is a pasty ball of iron with a high percentage of slag, which is then beaten with hammers... hence the term "wrought iron". It is beaten with the aim of reducing the proportion of silicate (iron glass) in the iron. Your use of "bloomery iron" must be different from my understanding of the term. Perhaps you could elaborate on this a bit for clarity's sake? > Wrought iron has a much higher slag inclusion density and in general a > much lower carbon content. Wrought iron came in with the introduction of > the indirect process (the blast furnace), whereas bloomery iron was made > directly from the ore without a separate liquid stage. That was still wrought iron. As far as I recall, the intentional addition of slag was done because pure iron was far too soft to be of any real use, expecially in tools and weapons. Inclusion of slag actually stiffens iron up considerably and was the method used before people figured out how to reintroduce carbon into the iron to form blister steel. I forge quite a bit of wroguht iron that I recover from old industrial sites. Several years ago I also had several hundred pounds of pure iron that I used. The pure iron, while vastly superior to the wrought iron in terms of workability, was markedly inferior in strength, pound for pound. The analyses of the materials were basically identical for carbon at about 0.004%, so C was not the differentiating factor. > PS It is strictly mail, not chain mail, (chain mail is a tautology). In > the historical records they are coats of mail. But we all work at the Department of Redundancy Department. > Talking to one of the smiths at the Royal Armouries he said that 3 > months full time work to complete a coat, he said never again. Yeah, that kind of work gets very old, which is probably why the master smiths had the apprentices do all the jackassing. OTOH, there are those that like this sort of work. My mom is a consummate lunatic in this way. She is the quiltress from hell. She pieces and quilts everything by hand only. No machine work at all. A large quilt may take her a year to complete, but she just sits on the floor in the evenings and sews away in bliss. I think I'd burn the house down in under three minutes, doing that. It's good that there are people like that in the world. From: "Chris Salter" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [EKMetalsmiths] chain mail Andrew, > Eh? This seems a bit confusing. In direct reduction processes, the > bloom is a pasty ball of iron with a high percentage of slag, which is > then beaten with hammers... hence the term "wrought iron". NO, it was just called iron as all iron and steel was forged (wrought). The term wrought iron did not appear until the fining of cast iron. > It is beaten > with the aim of reducing the proportion of silicate (iron glass) in > the iron. There was a bloom forging stage, but the actual quantity of slag in the metal seems to have been much less than previously thought, most of this stage was to weld together the separate pieces, and cracks in the bloom. > Your use of "bloomery iron" must be different from my > understanding of the term. Perhaps you could elaborate on this a bit > for clarity's sake? This may be a US / European thing, but bloomery iron is any iron produced by the direct or bloomery process. >> Wrought iron has a much higher slag inclusion density and in general a >> much lower carbon content. Wrought iron came in with the introduction of >> the indirect process (the blast furnace), whereas bloomery iron was made >> directly from the ore without a separate liquid stage. > That was still wrought iron. > As far as I recall, the intentional > addition of slag was done because pure iron was far too soft to be of > any real use, expecially in tools and weapons. The additional of slag was not intentional - where does that idea come from? > Inclusion of slag > actually stiffens iron up considerably and was the method used before > people figured out how to reintroduce carbon into the iron to form > blister steel. ??? There was plenty of steel around well before the 17th century! There were a series of papers on bloomery steel at the recent British Museum conference on Metallurgy - A touchstone for cross-cultrual interaction. The other way that iron was strength was the use of phosphoric iron rather than a low carbon iron. This had a long tradition from the Iron Age through to the 18th century. > I forge quite a bit of wroguht iron that I recover from > old industrial sites. Several years ago I also had several hundred > pounds of pure iron that I used. The pure iron, while vastly superior > to the wrought iron in terms of workability, was markedly inferior in > strength, pound for pound. The analyses of the materials were basically > identical for carbon at about 0.004%, so C was not the differentiating > factor. I would expect pure iron to be more easily worked, but in terms of mechanical properties the slag inclusions are nothing but trouble, not matter what seem old text books say. Jennifer Hopper produced a good thesis giving a variety of wrought irons the full series of modern mechanical tests and the results were that the slag act as built in cracks and nothing else. What was the phosphorus content of the wrought iron that has a considerable effect on the properties? >> Talking to one of the smiths at the Royal Armouries he said that 3 >> months full time work to complete a coat, he said never again. > > Yeah, that kind of work gets very old, which is probably why the master > smiths had the apprentices do all the jackassing. OTOH, there are those > that like this sort of work. My mom is a consummate lunatic in this > way. She is the quiltress from hell. She pieces and quilts everything > by hand only. No machine work at all. A large quilt may take her a > year to complete, but she just sits on the floor in the evenings and > sews away in bliss. I think I'd burn the house down in under three > minutes, doing that. It's good that there are people like that in the > world. I know I have a tendency to make over complex silver and copper-alloy jewellery with lots of fiddly parts - my tutor keeps saying do you really want to make that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't as jewellery but I do finish them eventually. -- Chris Salter, Oxford Materials Characterisation Service,& Electron Microscopy Research Support Group,& Material Science-based Archaeology Group, Oxford University Begbroke Science Park, Sandy Lane, Yarnton, Oxford, OX5 1PF Tel 01865 283722, EPMA 283741, Mobile 07776031608 From: Jeremiah Sullivan Date: October 3, 2006 10:41:15 PM CDT To: stefan at florilegium.org Subject: Sharksuits Hello Stefan, This is an accuracy update for your site. The first steel mesh shark suits were created by marine biologist Jeremiah Sullivan in 1978. The product is actually called the Neptunic Sharksuit I asked Whiting and Davis(two or three owners back) to fabricate a prototype of my earliest design. After seeing the success of my well known tests, and suspecting that I probably would not take them to court they decided to claim my work as their own. At this point nearly thirty years later and after some forty five television and film projects that we have been involved with there are very few people that still associate them with the products that our company invented and manufactures. We would be delighted to add your site to those that have chosen to provide the public with accurate information. For more information please visit www.neptunic.com. Best Regards, Jeremiah Sullivan Neptunic Sharksuits San Diego, Ca. 619 236 0711 www.neptunic.com Edited by Mark S. Harris chainmail-msg Page 57 of 57