chainmail-msg - 1/8/08 Making chainmail. Mail armor. NOTE: See also the files: merch-chainml-msg, chnmail-clean-msg, metals-msg, metalworking-msg, metal-sources-msg, chainmail-beg-art, merch-chainml-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: wayner at otc.otca.oz (Wayne Robinson) Date: 26 Jun 90 22:59:45 GMT tracker at wpi.wpi.edu (The Renegade Ranger) says: > I am once again seeking answers that I have not. I am curious as to what > reccomendations someone may make regarding the gauge of wire to make a sturdy > suit of Chainmail. For the final time guys, the real name is MAIL. Chainmail as a word is an invention of Sir Walter Scott et al. Check any saga. I'll give dimensions in millimeters as the gauges vary across the Pacific. 1.6mm gives good solid links in 6mm diameter suitable for coifs, gloves, etc. This is the wire diameter of the Sutton Hoo suit, but the links were 9mm internal in this case. 2mm wire works well on 12mm links for Celtic/Roman Hamata up to Saxon/Norman period, although apart from the Celtic stuff, it won't be really authentic unless you alternate punched and riveted rows. For real solidity try six-link (each link passing through six others). My wife is the first person in Australia to perfect ten-link. Sorry I can't quote references, but I remember seeing a photo of a six-link glove somewhere. Wayne Dryhtenfyrd (Look that up in your Anglo-Saxon reader!) From: sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali) Date: 28 Jun 90 17:33:06 GMT Organization: Computer Science Club, University of Waterloo Peace be on the realto Before I begin please don't think that I don't value hand made things ,craftmanship,or the joy of doing it on your own, the hard but fun way etc,but as one cannot learn everything or do everything sometimes shortcuts outside your field are very valueable. I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well. Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make sheet to order? Second I have heard that an Italian company is making chain mail "cloth" it is probably nickle plated copper but would be good for dress. I have only found the shark resistant armour.It costs three thousand for a full suit of titanium /aluminum welded link mail(nice if you've got the bucks)custom fitted of course... Also in this book on casting it shows you how to make a mold for casting linear chain ,one day I'm going to try doing patches of chainmail... Imagine producing a suit a day! anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail companies I would appreaciate it. On the more conventional level work hardened alloys should be considered aluminum weling rod work hardens considerably.1/8 dia. with 3/8 hole is difficult,almost impossible to bend partly because it is so strong and also because it is almost double 1/16 may not be strong enough to fight in but for decoration its ok,can anyone find 3/32 aluminum welding rod? Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders it would generate! lowly apprintice glassblower p.s. its not hand made its mouth blown -- sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan Qualil............... From: palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com (Colonel Mode) Date: 29 Jun 90 19:07:31 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali) writes... >I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america >that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing >butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well. >Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make sheet >to order? >anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail >companies I would appreaciate it. I checked into this about a year ago. The company that makes bucher's gauntlets, aprons, and shark suits is Whiting and Davis 23 West Bacon St. Plainville, Ma 02762 508-699-4411 Last I talked to them they absolutely refused to do any custom mesh, as they call it. They do provide aluminum mail to hollywood for mail costumes, but it's not suitable for SCA events and it tinkles, not chinks, as you walk because it's too light. BTW, this comes in sheets, not ready-made garments. Also, the marketing person I delt with had the brain of a brontosaurus and was incredibly frustrating. So I consider them a dead-end/waste of time unless you want the stainless steel butcher's gauntlets. They only sell them in quantity and they're about $150 *each*, not per pair, if I remember correctly, for the full-hand model. ***** Chris Palmer palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com phone (508)486-6667 dtn 226-6667 From: kay at hjuxa.UUCP (KAY) Date: 29 Jun 90 22:16:17 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corp, Manalapan NJ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali): > Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half > surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders > it would generate! I have seen this suggestion twice in the last couple of days. It occured to me that a disk with a hole punched in it has a special name, it is called a "washer" ;-). Duke Dagan in the Middle had a coif about 10 years ago that was alternating rows of rings and narrow anulus washers (I may have the wrong term, the hole matched the rings and the steel part was not too wide). He claimed it was as supple and less maintanence compaired to a all butted set. Those who remember that coif may remember that it was black oxidized. This is a form of weather proofing that involves repeated heating and quenching in oil until you get a fine black finish that does not come off. As I recall he did it at the Pizza joint he managed (using olive oil!). As to closed links, Master Knut is still making riveted mail. I saw his booth at Estrella in 1989 (I missed the merchants this year). He also did some welded mail (a bit less time consuming if you use a spot-welder). > sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan Qualil............... > No disclamer:I stand behind what I say Michael Badali Bart the Bewildered, Carillion, East (Paul Kay, Freehold, NJ, USA) (kay at unx.dec.com, bewildrd%bart at unx.dec.com) From: ileaf!io!kopf!eisen at EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Carl West x4449) Date: 28 Jun 90 18:56:03 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Gwilym, Your idea about rivetted mail making using the retaining rings is interesting, but it has a few flaws. You neglected to explain how you plan to overlap the ends of these presumably heat-treated- so-they-will-spring-back-to-their-original-shape retaining rings so the rivets may be inserted. The plan for making rivets is an interesting one but it will (I have determined this empirically) result in a block of steel with a piece of rivet stock permanently imbedded in it. Lastly, your numbers are a bit off, the 3500 rings will produce rather less than 6 square feet of mail, enough to, perhaps do sleeves and the tops of your shoulders. The general estimate of rings needed for a hawberk is 30,000 to 40,000. This has been a bunch of nay-saying and it sounds awful, I just hope that you haven't sent off your money to these people. I too have been working on tools and techniques for rivetted mail with some slight success. Even if I get it going as well as I hope to I expect I would have to charge 50 cents a link to make as reasonable wage as a mailer as I do as a type designer. Ain't high-tech great! Frydherik Eysenkopf Carolingia,East/Boston,Mass. From: rvd at bunker.UUCP (Robert Del Favero Jr.) Date: 3 Jul 90 13:20:45 GMT Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, Ct Steve Bloch (Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib to us) writes: >By the way, I noticed somebody's post about the difficulty of making >wire in period. Weren't the rings in most period mail ALL punched, >with half of them then broken and riveted back together? The journal Archaeologia published at least two articles some years back containing metallurgical analyses of chainmail rings. The author got some authentic chainmail rings and sectioned them for microscopic analysis. He also did compsitional analysis on the steel. Maestro Roberto has spent a lot of time with the articles, and this is what he told me about them. (As best I remember it.) All of the rings they looked at seem to have been made as follows: 1. Draw some wire with an elliptical cross section. 2. Wrap the wire around a circular rod. The major axis of the ellipse is oriented radially to the rod. Cut individual rings from this spring, with slightly overlapping ends. 3. While the ends of this wire loop are overlapping, punch a hole through both ends at once. (How? Good question. When you figure it out, tell Maestro Roberto, Carl of the West, and everyone else who's been working on riveted mail. Please.) The hole should be wider on the top than on the bottom. 4. Turn the ring over and put a short piece of smaller gauge wire in the hole. The wire should stick up above the ring a little bit. Swat the end of the wire with a hammer. This will peen up the wire rivet and upset it so that it swells to fit on the rivet this way.) A rough sketch: Peen here -\---------------- -------------------- ----\ | | ----------/ \-------\______ / \ \___ ---------------- -----------------\----- Punch hole from this side. As I remember, the only rings that were punched as flat washers were the brass ones that were stamped with the maker's mark on them. I don't remember any welded rings, either. I don't have the references for these articles here, but I can get them for anybody who'd like. But it would be faster and easier for anyone who's really interested to look for Archaeologia in the local university library. The journal has its own indices, so the chainmail articles shouldn't be too hard to find. Vittorio del Fabbro Myrkfaelinn in Exile East Kingdom ---------------------------------------------------------- Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company rvd at clunker.uucp Shelton, Connecticut, USA OR clunker!rvd at oliveb.atc.olivetti.com From: Colin The Blackheart To: Rolfe Von_Duerer Msg #287, 10-Jul-90 12:19pm Subject: Re: Armor RV>Good gentle if it were possible for a mail link knitting RV>machine to be made some one ine the SCA would have one. Thy RV>gauntlet hast been dropped, I challenge thee to find such a It exists, and is patented even. Check out Best of Hammer #4. Patented about 1930, no machinery exists for it. But you've got PLENTY of technical drawings to work from (grin). Colin From: MTG at cornellc.cit.cornell.EDU (Mike Garcia) Date: 15 Apr 91 18:44:29 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings all! William de Corbie wrote (in part): >P.P.S. Butted chainmail: Someone on the net claimed this did not >exist in the real middle ages. But a friend of mine claims that one >of the chainmail coifs from Visby is butted. Is there anyone out >there who has the books and can check on this? First, a little history: In July, 1361, a Danish army invaded Gotland and quickly defeated the the army that opposed them. The Danes them marched on Wisby. The town rasied a milita for defense. In order to raise the troops the town had to scrape the bottom of the manpower barrel quite vigerously. A third of the militia was young boys and old men. Hunchbacks and cripples also served. The militia was ill equiped and virtually untrained. The results were predictable. There were 1800-2000 militia dead. I checked "Armour from the Battle of Wisby, 1361" by Bengt Thordenman, Ph.D. Here is what I found: - 185 coifs were recovered from the mass graves. - Coifs were composed of iron and bronze rings. The bronze rings were on the edges of the coifs. - There was no mention of a coif made up of butted rings. - There was no mention of butted rings. - There was speculation that if the iron rings were not riveted, they were welded or stamped (solid disks). Due to rust, it was not always possible to determine how the iron rings were closed. - All bronze rings were riveted. Since most of the bodies had be striped of armor, it is safe to assume that these pieces were the LEAST valuable ones. This means that the armor found in the mass graves at Wisby was the dreges of the dreges. (The best armor was with the main army, leaving the dreges for the militia. The Danes kept best of what was on the dead. Only after the bodies had lain in the summer sun for several days was armor buried with the dead.) There are at least two very good reasons to think that butted mail was not used in period. Butted mail weighs more that riveted mail and butted mail will not stand up to arrows. Here at Myrkfaelinn we have two mail shirts we ran some experiments on. One was made of butted links by Ken Bender, the other was made of welded links by Robert MacPherson. Ken's shirt weighs 55 lb. Mac's shirt weighs 18 lb. We hung both shirts from a rod passed through the arms and then fired a number of arrows at them from several bows. The wimpiest bow was a 65lbf cross bow with an 9.5 inch draw (~310 lbf-in). The most powerful bow was a "50 lb" longbow that was overdrawn 6 inches, for a 25 inch draw, to 70lbf in draw weight (~875 lbf-in). (lbf = pound force = 4.45 Newtons, us Americans use good old fashion english units :-).) Ken's shirt of butted mail was incapable of stopping any of the arrows. After we had blown eight holes in his shirt, Ken refused to allow any more shots. Mac and I wanted to find out how many layers we could penetrate. Ken didn't want to fix any more holes. Mac's shirt of welded mail was stopped every arrow. One of the longbow shots struck sparks from the iron rings, but did not penetrate. Mike Garcia Cornell Universuty ______ / | INTERNET: MTG at CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU | | AT&T Net: (607) 255-3748 _________/ | USNAIL : Room 321 > | Computing & Communications Ctr. / * Ithaca | Cornell University |______________ | Ithaca, New York 14853 `_ | USA `__| ICBMNET: 42 28 N 76 28 W Alt 995 From: trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) Date: 17 Apr 91 03:06:36 GMT Organization: Open Communications Forum I think it depends on your definition of period. According to Osprey Books (and I know I've also read it elsewhere, but can't remember where at the moment) one of the mail shirts in the Sutton Hoo trove was, upon radiogarphic examination, found to be alternate rows of butted and rivetted rings. Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty convincing to me... Elaine NicMaoilan trifid at agora.rain.com From: CKRUPP at UVMVM.BITNET (Christina Krupp) Date: 18 Apr 91 15:05:24 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings unto all from Countess Marieke! I have here the tome "The Sutton Hoo Ship Burial" by Rupert Bruce-Mitford, published by British Museum Publications in 1982. Volume 2 discusses the arms and armor. Chapter 4 discusses the mail coat, in great detail. This quote from pp. 236-7 may be of interest in the current discussion: "It does, however, clearly show, contrary to previously published statements, that the mail was made of alternate rows of welded or forged links and of riveted links." He explains the "previously published statements" in a footnote: "E.g. Sir James Mann, referring to riveting of mail as universal in the west, says 'the only exception in Europe' is the mail shirt found at Sutton Hoo. 'Minute examination has shown that in this case the ends of the rings are merely butted together as in much mail of Oriental origin...'(Mann, in Stenton, 1957, p.62). ... The idea that the Sutton Hoo mailcoat was composed of links with butted joints had been formulated by the Research Laboratory as a result of visual examination, and only recent radiography has disclosed the true construction." From: vnend at spot.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) Date: 23 Apr 91 00:39:24 GMT Organization: Princeton University trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes: )Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed )repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty )convincing to me... )Elaine NicMaoilan There was recently a discussion of this very passage going on over in the Anglo-Saxon mailing list (mostly scholars talking *way* over my head.) There is a significant body of thought that the word used there and translated as 'swim' may mean 'sail' instead. Certainly, it seems, the word has several meanings, among which are swim, sail and row, so it seems that using this passage as documentation for light mail is suspect. Kwellend-Njal -- Vnend, Lottery winner #316 Ignorance is the mother of adventure. vnend at princeton.edu, vnend at pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend From: tracker at wpi.WPI.EDU (The Renegade Ranger) Date: 15 Oct 91 18:53:36 GMT Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Just a few additions... There are quite a few 'patterns' for mail, 5-ring, 4-ring, suicidal groupings of 6 rings, etc... 4 ring is by far the easiest. In the suit I've been making, I used 14gauge fence wire from Agway (A farming store chain near me). This was suggested to me when I first started my work by a gentle on this group, and the advice proved valuable; 1/4 mile of wire was approximately $19. That will make about 3 small shirts, or 2 large ones. I'd tried using a hacksaw in a vise, with little encouraging success... I found that heavy-duty wire cutters do the job. If you want cleaner rings, try the vise idea, but either use a motorized tool with a fiberglass-reinforced cutting wheel (A mototool, a drill, a cordless screwdriver... tho the latter would take forever..), or a jewler's hand saw. (Shaped like a 'U' with a handle, very thin, small blade.) These are a tad easier for those of us with less coordination... tends to give you fewer mistakes through saw misalignment. One thing I do, which I haven't seen too many people do, is pad the jaws of my pliers, to avoid scratching the rings. Use duct tape, or scrap leather.. you have to change it once in a while, but it can avoid some appearance defects later on... -Tracker From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra) Date: 16 Oct 91 21:23:39 GMT Organization: The Internet Alejandra greets you all.... Please, just "mail." Not "Chainmail". Mail means chain. Chainmail means "chainchain." Plate mail is a D&D-inspired silliness. A suggestion to shorten the tedius process of ring-winding - go out and get a supply of door-springs. Spring steel is tough and springs (!) into a closed ring fairly easily. Jump rings in quantity are also very useful; try a jewelry findings supplier. For tools - instead of padding the pliers, try filing a crescent-shaped groove in the jaws, of the same dimensions of a section of your rings. Avoids the scritching problem, and gives you a LOT more control. I'll carry on a discussion of mail-making on private e-mail, if anyone wishes to....I've made a living making it for the past several months. Alejandra From: rvd at bunker.shel.isc-br.com (Robert Del Favero Jr.) Date: 17 Oct 91 13:47:36 GMT Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, Ct If you're interested in making a mail garment like those of the middle ages, you'll want to do two things that most SCA mailmakers don't do. First, you'll want to rivet the ends of the rings together rather than butt the cut ends together. This means that you can use lighter wire, and the resulting rings will be much stronger and more durable. This is very hard to do, and I know of no one in the SCA who knows a good way to do it. The second thing you'll want to do is to fit your mail garment to the wearer by increasing and decreasing the number of rings in a row where appropriate. This makes the garment fit better and move better, and saves some weight. Here are some articles that address these questions, references provided by my master, Roberto di Milano, OL: "The Mail-maker's Technique", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXIII, 1953, Oxford University Press, London. Speculative reconstruction of mail-making techniques based on observation of many examples of the real thing. "Further Research into the Construction of Mail Garments", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXIII, 1953, Oxford University Press, London. Further speculation on the process and details of fitting. Includes analyses of a hauberk and pair of chausses from the Wallace Collection, with pictures showing increases and decreases used to fit the garments. "The Mail Shirt from Sinigaglia", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXVII, 1957, Oxford University Press, London. A detailed analysis of a 14th century italian mail shirt. "A Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection", E. Martin Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XXXVIII, 1958, Oxford University Press, London. Detailed analysis of another 14th century mail shirt. "Methods of Making Chain Mail (14th to 18th Centuries): A Metallographic Note", Cyril Stanley Smith, Technology and Culture, vol. 1, no. 1, Winter 1959. A metallographic analysis that gives some insights into the way that chainmail rings were made and assembled. "A Reply to Cyril Stanley Smith on Mail Making Methods", E. Martin Burgess, Technoloby and Culture, vol. 1, no. 2, Spring 1960. Burgess offers refinements on his theories since the 1953 articles. "A Habergeon of Westwale", W. Reid and E. M. Burgess, The Antiquaries Journal, volume XL, 1960, Oxford University Press, London. History and analysis of a late-14th century mail shirt from Germany. Permission is given to copy and distribute this list in SCA publications, official and otherwise. Vittorio del Fabbro Myrkfaelinn in Exile Kingdom of the East ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. Olivetti Advanced Financial Development Group rvd at clunker.shel.isc-br.com Shelton, Connecticut, USA From: bobwo at mot.com (DX531 Bob Woodhouse) Date: 18 Nov 91 19:32:29 GMT Organization: secure_comm I understand that there are some mail related questions, and I thought I might share some experiences. I have had success with using 19 ga, half-hard stainless steel wire. When I make the rings, I cut them as one would normally cut them for butted mail, and then I take a 'hex crimper' (used to terminate cables with F connectors) and squeeze the rings from a few directions to make them overlap a bit. A common spot welder can then fuse this overlapping. I prefer to then hammer the weld flat a bit (especially when the metal is still hot). Another thing I have tried is blackening mild steel wire in the forge after the mail product is constructed. This will slow down rust if a piece is not to be handled too much (can't comment on the case where it is handled much). I do not know if black chain is all that fashionable anyway. Don't ask why, but I once use copper power-line with soldered joint. It would be too expensive, but it's what I had at the time. A good day to all, Wolfram Eck a.k.a. Bob Woodhouse bobwo at mot.com Lothar The Wanderer Holmgren Lars chainmail ring size 7 Feb 92 I do a bit of mailing, and what I use is either 17 gauge for decoratory, or 14 gauge for the real stuff. The 14 guage I turn on a 3/8" rod, and the 17 gauge I use everything from that same rod down to, believe it or not, an old 8" disk drive head positioning rail! I think it is about 3/16" or so. Take the time and experiment as the ring size is based more upon your tastes and strength. The 3/16" 14 gauge might look good, but I don't have the wrist strength to do it comfortably. A ring of 1" in diameter would look hideous and would have an easier potential to break because of the angle of the hanging rings upon it. Your best bet is to experiment. I chose the gauges I use because they are electric fence (livestock fence) barrier sizes and my farm outfitter sells it to me for $20 per half mile of 17 and $21 per 1/4 mile of 14 gauge, and yes, if you are going to chainmail a lot, it will all be used up and more, I am on my 4th roll of 14 gauge. Good Luck on your chaimailing insanity, Lothar the Wanderer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Organization: Indiana University Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 00:27:07 GMT vader at meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg) writes: >I just want to support the question here... the construction of >feet / shoes for mail leggings is a mystery that I have long >wanted to know about. My guess is that they either wore some >kind of shoe inside the mail, or had a leather sole attached >to the mail. But is there nobody who really knows? > >William de Corbie The effigies I have seen of 13th C. English knights (in the Temple and Westminster Abbey in London, the Musee de Cluny and the Cloisters) lead me to believe that there was no armor on the bottom of the foot and the whole mail chauss was made like a pair of footed hose or the mail was worn over a pair of shoes and held on with points and/or straps passed under the arch of the foot. The pair of SCA-made mail chausses I tried on several years ago had several problems - notably their wieght, their lousy protection vs. crushing blows, poor fit at the foot (due to bad design) and poor fit at the back of the ankle (due to the need to make the mail wide enough to pass over the foot). The problem of weight could be solved with suspenders or points attached to a gambeson. The poor fit at the back of the ankle could be fixed by leaving the chausse open at that point and tying it closed with laces to get a better fit. The lack of protection vs. a crushing blow seems to be an inherant weakness of mail. Lothar \|/ 0 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 03:33:18 GMT OK, I'll bite. I didn't see your original post, but I take it you're looking for references to armoured footwear. I'm not an armourer, but I have seen a terrfic video called "How a Man Schall be Armed"...it's put out though the Tower of London musuem, but I got my copy at the Metropolitan Musuem of Art in New York. I'm sure you could order it through one of these museums. Anyway, there are nifty close-up shots of a man putting on 16th century armour, including sabotons. BTW, there is a nother vido on the tape called "Masters of Defence" which describes the beginnings of fencing. Hope this helps... Nicolaa From: tracker at bigwpi.WPI.EDU (The Renegade Ranger) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mailed feet (again...) Date: 3 Apr 1993 16:31:24 GMT Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) writes: > OK, I'll bite. I didn't see your original post, but I take it >you're looking for references to armoured footwear. I'm not >an armourer, but I have seen a terrfic video called "How a Man >Schall be Armed"...it's put out though the Tower of London musuem, >but I got my copy at the Metropolitan Musuem of Art in New York. I'm >sure you could order it through one of these museums. Anyway, there >are nifty close-up shots of a man putting on 16th century armour, including >sabotons. BTW, there is a nother vido on the tape called "Masters >of Defence" which describes the beginnings of fencing. Just as a side note on the "How a man Schall be Armed" video.. the guy that they're dressing up is Graeme Rimer, (whose name I think I have just horribly mispelled) who is currently keeper of weapons at the Royal Armouries. I've only seen the video twice, but as I remember from a pair of sabatons at the museum, I think they would start with a wide row that ran the circumfrence, then do a limited contraction in the front, much like a miniature coif. Put the contraction over a shaped (well, maybe not shaped, but at least there...) leather piece, so that it was the leather sole and the front piece that held it to the front of the foot. The sole itself would most likely extend an extra 1/2 inch on the sides, which the mail would overlap and fasten to. There would be a strip of lether in the back at the heel location, running up to almost the top of the heel. Note that this is just rom what I remember and what I'd guess to fill the voids from what I don't remember, so it's not accurate or verified. However, from doing some boot work and playing with mail coverings on them, I'd think that it would be a 3/4 leather moc with the front toe and the overlapped sides comprising most of the leather coverage. If anyone knows of a better way, or can thinkl of corrections to improve on my suggestion, please respond. I'd definitely like to find out... -Tracker From: Longshot at f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Headdresses and Colors Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1993 16:53:33 00 Jan 00 04:04:00 From the cutting edge, Longshot heard Lisa J Shea say to All; LJS> I am in the process of joining the SCA and, having received all LJS> introductory literature, am curious about the exact requirements on LJS> clothing. I have done medieval clothing research for local Faires and LJS> sewn a 1300s 3-level dress. Unfortunately, I chose purple, which was LJS> only used by nobles. Also, I have a matching chain-metal headdress (to LJS> the middle of my back) and handpiece. Are these too ostentatious? lo' A matter that I don't know if anyone has mentioned to you yet, but the use of Chain mail (per say) is period. It was done in Poland. ~ Aindries From: Longshot at f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Headdresses and Colors Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1993 17:01:36 00 Jan 01 01:07:00 From the cutting edge, Longshot heard Dorthy J Heydt say to Lisa J Shea; -U> Also, I have a matching chain-metal headdress (to the >middle of my back) and handpiece. Are these too ostentatious? -U> More to the point, they are a 20th-century hippie Ren Faire invention. -U> Wear them if you like, but if you really want to look medieval, leave -U> them home. I would put aside the out-of-period chainmail. Go -U> back to your source books and see what the early 14th-century ladies -U> are wearing. Milady, I may recommend that you explore the Polish (12-1400 era, I think, but apologize that I can not be more accurate) ornamentation. There are some very clear examples of a chain mail style material being used as jewelry. ~ Aindries From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail Date: 6 Apr 1993 21:25:04 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering A serpentine chain can be imagined as two simple chains occupying the same space. Chain 1 +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ ====== ======== ======== ======== | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Chain 2 +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ ======== ======== ======== ======== | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Combined +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ ======| ========| ========| ========| | | ====== |======== |======== |======== | | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ | +------+ +------+ +------+ +------+ Notice the twist in the flat links? The edge on links need to interlace in the same way. If your links are large enough, you can superimpose a more chains. The limitation is the ration of the diameter of the wire to the size of the ring, i.e. how many links will fit in a ring. To build the chain, anchor a ring. Add two rings to the start ring. Add a ring that passes through both of the new rings. Add a ring that passes through the last ring and one of the previous two rings. {Begin repeat} Add a ring that passes through the last two rings. {End repeat} Fiacha From: Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Help chain mail Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 12:21:02 >Hello i am tring to make a chain mail choif (sp?) or hood. I ca not >figure out how to get the round piece at the top. Please E-mail me >if you can help. Start with a single ring, with 8 rings attached to it. Add another row of rings, just as normal. Now go back and add 4 rings to 4 of the original 8. These will not go through two links when you add them, as normal, but will attach only to 1 ring each. Now add another row, as normal, using the 12 rings in your outmost circle to attach to. Then add some extra's (like we did with the 4 earlier). Continue as needed. In the early stages, you want the mail to lay pretty flat on a flat surface. Eventually, you'll quit adding links, add sides, etc. ___ * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229) From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU (Peter G. Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 'idiot's delight' Date: 30 Aug 1993 13:48:54 -0400 I've found a simple way of making ornamental chains out of jump rings, in a modern metalworking book. The pattern is called "Idiot's delight" in the text, and works as follows: (1) \ < < < (2) Hook 4 rings to 2, so that __ v \ __ ^ the middle pair connects the ----/ \---- ----X \ other two pair. ----\__/---- ----X__/ v ^ / Split the rightmost pair, and swing / < < < them back along either side of the leftmost pair. (3) -||---- Split the middle pair along the right edge, ----||- and push the "rightmost" ----||- pair up between them. -||---- ___ (4) / \ Hook another pair through the "righmost pair, -||---- -|---- and through a fifth pair, to the right: ====||= | | -||---- -|---- \___/ Repeat the process of splitting the rightmost pair, then the next- rightmost pair, and hooking 2 more pair through the 2nd to the 1st, until you feel like throwing up... This gives you a nifty chain with a square cross-section. 2 questions: Has anyone seen this particular pattern in period, and where ought I look, to FIND patterns for chains et. al.? -- Azelin From: silbrmnd at acf4.nyu.edu (silbrmnd) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 'idiot's delight' Date: 5 Sep 1993 09:06:41 GMT Azelin causes some of us to lose whatever's left of our minds... >I've found a simple way of making ornamental chains out of jump >rings, in a modern metalworking book. The pattern is called >"Idiot's delight" in the text, and works as follows: [pattern deleted] >This gives you a nifty chain with a square cross-section. Kew-ul! I must be really overtired or something, tho. I couldn't _quite_ visualize the chain based on your instructions (although the ASCII diagrams ended up being very helpful!), so I went over to the other side of my room and dug out my mail pouch (god, I sound like a postal worker, don't I? ;) from under a pile of black t-shirts (I'm in the middle of packing, I'm moving into the dorm tommorrow :) and tried to figure it out. Well, I almost 'mailed Azelin too soon to tell him it wasn't working, but after taking apart my first attempt and trying over, I got it to work. I continued it for 5-ish reps, and it really does look nice. (The main problem, epecially since it's a small piece, is that the ends keep trying to come undone... I ended up sticking a screw thru each end). Sometime later, maybe when I'm more awake, I think I'm gonna make up a few of these and try to figure out the most "esthetically pleasing" way to connect these up for armoring purposes... Get your designer mail shirts! :) (Actually, make one really (_really_) long chain, turn it into a spiral, connect the "sides"... Hmm, could work... Anyone interested in an extra thick mail coif? :) >2 questions: Has anyone seen this particular pattern in period, >and where ought I look, to FIND patterns for chains et. al.? Ditto that. (the second part, anyways...) I'm interested especially in *period* variations of the basic 4-in-1 pattern, as well as other interesting designs that people have come up with (but if possible please tell me if it was a "legitimate" period pattern, or just something that looks cool). And what about using thinner wire and smaller rings for jewelery? (Is this period? What type/gauge wire is generally used? (I use 14 gauge galvanized steel for armor-type things) Also, what do people generally use for different colored rings? (wire hangers'll work for a silver/gold pattern, but a friend of mine noticed that someone had a red mail shirt at Pennsic... (dunno if it was all red, or just had some red rings in it, we figure paint is too impractical (you'd have to repaint it way too often)) <Gak> Definitely time to get to sleep, it's almost 5... -GAbrielle the Clueless ---------------------------------| DarkMage, the Clueless Wonder |----------------------------------- silbrmnd at acf4.nyu.edu | Gabrielle (Don't call me Gabby!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: willey at ftp.com (Richard E. Willey) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: rivetted chain Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1993 17:47:54 Organization: FTP Software, North Andover, Massachusetts With all due respect to Tracker, I'm not sure that you've ever tried making rivetted mail. You can not simply rivet all the open links together in one large batch. I'e been working on and off on some rivetted mail for quite some time now, and it it virtually impossible to get the mail to lie properly so that you can rivet more than one ring at once. I loose a large amount of time shifting mail around and changing tools. I can close ad rivet about 1 run every 10 seconds, and this is a significant gain over what i used to do. Adding and closing open rings is much slower. hrothgar Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: lbell at nyx.cs.du.edu (Larry Bell) Subject: Re: Chain coifs... Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept. Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 19:42:18 GMT Pete Eidet <petee at icebox.iceonline.com> wrote: >Well someone asked =) > > The general 4 in 1 pattern is _slightly_ changed to start the top of the >coif: > > 1. Start with a slightly bigger ring for the 'top' of the coif, then >put 7 or so rings attached to it (as space allows) and set it down so that you >can see the rings overlap in the "usual" way. Actually, you can start with a regular sized central ring with seven attached to it. That's how I do most of my coifs. The 'extra' rings added to increase the diameter are sometimes called idle rings. Then can also be used to decrease the diameter, as in the waist of a hauberk. Larry Bell - Sir William of Bellwood lb5532 at swuts.sbc.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: petee at icebox.iceonline.com (Pete Eidet) Subject: Chain coifs... Organization: ICE Online Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:18:15 GMT Well someone asked =) The general 4 in 1 pattern is _slightly_ changed to start the top of the coif: 1. Start with a slightly bigger ring for the 'top' of the coif, then put 7 or so rings attached to it (as space allows) and set it down so that you can see the rings overlap in the "usual" way. 2. Start the nnormal process of threading 1 link through 2 which are already there (forget that they are attached in a circle) 3. For every row which is done (remember the rows are now done in CIRCLES) add 4 extra links to the outside (at present) row at even spaces [i.e. one at "north" one at "south" one at "east" etc.] so that the circle is slowly expanding. 4. When you have a large enough space to crown your head i.e. fits like a 'baseball' cap (without the visor of course! =) stop adding the extra 4 links per row, and leave a space large enough for your face (well you do want to see of course ;) 5. When this "tube" part of the coif reaches your shoulders, connect the front of the coif again at the bottem (adding in a sufficient number of rows of course) and once again add the 4 extra links per row, so that it may fit over your shoulders properly. 6. Continue to the length you wish, and trim the bottem with any pattern you desire (embattled, plain, whatever) 7. Don't forget padding underneath if you like your hair/eyebrows/ears Aleron Hauk DeMoion From: design at MCS.COM (Ann Feeney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 11 Mar 1994 12:33:24 -0600 Organization: /usr/lib/news/organi[sz]ation Jesse Ephraim <jpe at metronet.com> wrote: >In article <CM8y5q.JnG at news.direct.net>, >John Groseclose <caradoc at indirect.com> wrote: >>Jesse Ephraim (jpe at metronet.com) wrote: >>: I'm sure that you've all heard this a billion times, but I'd like to >>: learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on >>: the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book >>: suggestions? >> >>: Thanks! Note: I have never made chain mail from these directions. Oppi Untracts Jewelry Concepts and Technology, has a good section on chain mail. Untract is a metalworking GOD (IMHO), and the directions and patterns look superb. Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings supposedly sells a videotape. They have an 800 number--call the 800 directory. (I used to have their number memorized, but forgot it just when I need it...) They sell good stuff. Ann Feeney Enid Wriggleworth >Jesse Ephraim | But what is truth? >jpe at metronet.com | Is truth unchanging law? Ann Feeney |Any similarity of opinions between Ligature, Inc. |those expressed in this posting (312)648-1233 |and anybody else's, including design at mcs.com |Ligature, Inc. is purely coincidental. From: lyoness at panix.com (Jean Krevor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 14 Mar 1994 01:21:45 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC >>>Jesse Ephraim (jpe at metronet.com) wrote: >>>: I'm sure that you've all heard this a billion times, but I'd like to >>>: learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on >>>: the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book >>>: suggestions? Ann Feeney <design at MCS.COM> replied: >Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings supposedly sells a >videotape. They have an 800 number--call the 800 directory. (I used to >have their number memorized, but forgot it just when I need it...) They >sell good stuff. Rio Grande Albuquerque/River Gems and Findings' number is 800-533-3299. I haven't gotten a recent catalogue from them, so I don't know about a chain mail video. <<disclaimer -- I have no financial interest in RGA/RGF, but considering how many folks I've sent to get their catalogs, boy, do I *WISH* I did.>> :-) Slainte'-- Elizabeth/Jean Jean Elizabeth Krevor | Nothing is better than eternal happiness. lyoness at panix.com | And, a ham sandwich is better than nothing. Associate member, SFLAaE/BS | Therefore, a ham sandwich must be better Lady Elizabeth Camerona | than eternal happiness. nicIan of Clan Mitchell | I'll have a ham sandwich, please! Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: dwhite at atl.com (David White) Subject: Re: chain mail Organization: Advanced Technology Laboratories, Bothell, WA, USA Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:26:54 GMT > Not to nit-pick. . . > > . .but the terminology "Chain-mail" is incorrect, there is no such thing as >Chain-Mail, that is a common misconception stemming from Dungeons and Dragons >players. > >The correct terminology is just Mail. Also thought i'd mention that Plate >Mail, therefore, is a contradiction in terms, the correct term is Plate >armor. Gary Gygax may have been very creative, but his game is not a basis >for historical observations. > >Eros A Glossary Of The Construction, Decoration And Use Of Arms And Armor In All Countries And In All Times by George Cameron Stone (an authoritative tome, frequently qouted) has the following heading for mail.... MAIL, CHAIN MAIL. He lists a large varieties of mail made with interlocking rings of various paterns and small plates linked with rings. The armour using small plates seams to have been used mostly in Asia. An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour by Charles Henry Ashdown tracts the evolution of armour as follows... CHAIN MAIL PERIOD, 1180-1250 CHAIN MAIL REINFORCED, 1250-1325 THE CYCLAS PERIOD, 1325-1335 THE STUDDED AND SPLINTED ARMOUR PERIOD, 1335-1360 THE CAMAIL AND JUPON PERIOD, 1360-1410 THE SURCOATLESS PERIOD, 1410-1430 THE TABARD PERIOD, 1430-1500 THE TRANSITION PERIOD, 1500-1525 MAXIMILLIAN ARMOUR, 1525-1600 THE HALF-ARMOUR PERIOD AFTER 1600 I think Gary invented the term "plate mail" wich refers to chain mail reinforced with rigid armour. this apears in the 13th century and is used in increasingly improved forms until 1400 or so when full plate makes its appearence. -David W Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: chain mail Summary: Ashdown is not reliable Organization: Indiana University Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 03:58:26 GMT (Michael H Cole) writes: >jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes... >><SNIP> >>>An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour >>> >>>by Charles Henry Ashdown >>> >>That doesn't necessarily affect any of the other stuff Charles Henry >>Ashdown says, but he does seem to be wrong on the early cutoff of the >>period during which linked metal rings were used as armour. That's probably not the only error in Ashdown. Run, do not walk, to find Claud Blair's European Armour. Ashdown is one of the sources notorious for misinformation. Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chainmail beginner wants help! Date: 15 Mar 1994 16:18:15 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln : learn the basics of making chainmail. Is there a FAQ or text file on : the net that teaches this, or does anyone have any good, in-print book : suggestions? Try "The Complete Metalsmith" , in print, ~$8-13 -- Tim Myers Toli the Curious University of Nebraska-Lincoln Shire of Mag Mor tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu Kingdom of Calontir Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard <b.hubbard at aston.ac.uk> Subject: (Chain)mail terms, Romans Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 14 Mar 1994 17:58:42 GMT This is in response to a number of postings about mail and about Romans. The Romans used mail extensively, some of it very fine. I have handled excavated pieces with ring dimensions of about 7 mm.external diameter, 1 mm wire. I think there is evidence for far finer, although probably ornamental rather than functional. There is sculptural representation of mail on Roman monuments and gravestones and a variety of conventions are used to show it: cross-hatching, zig-zags, dot-and-circles, dots, etc. Roman sculpture was also painted and it seems likely that a lot of otherwise blank tunic-like garments on sculptures were painted as mail. These have been interpreted in the past as leather tunics. It seems likely that mail was the most common form of armour in the Roman army from the late Republic through to, well, whatever cut-off point you want :-) It was used by legionaries, auxiliaries - foot and cavalry -and by officers and *NCOs*. The use of the more famous *lorica segmentata* (the strips of iron around the body and over the shoulder) was restricted in its period of use, the type of user and geographical location. As a type of armour, it was only used for maybe two hundred and fifty years, does not seem to have been used by the Auxiliaries (who made up roughly half the army), or to have been popular in the East (where scale and lamellar armour co-existed with mail). The term *lorica hamata* was used for a mail *shirt*; the term *lorica squamata*, referred to a scale *shirt* and a third term *lorica plumata* possibly referred to mail with tiny scales laced through neighbouring links before riveting, producing a combined scale/mail garment. In discussing various terms, I think its important to differentiate between the armour itself as a garment and the material from which it is made. Thus, the only (medieval) period term I have seen for mail is mail (or maille, etc). The Saxons and Vikings seems to have had no special word for the material itself, but called the *garments* hauberks and byrnies etc (developing into the medieval term haubergeon, etc). These terms seem to imply mail construction in the way they are used (poetically referred to as *Odin?s Web* or the *War Net*), but equally, scale existed, so the terms may exceptionally cover garments made of either construction. As information about the term itself, the Romans seem to have picked up mail from the Celts, possibly from Gaul, but their name for it is unknown. For the Romans, the material was called *macula*. This is derived from the Latin for *net*, which itself comes from the term for *dots* - the idea being that a fishing net from a distance is most visible as its knots. It is this term *macula* which becomes *maglia* in Italian and *mailles* in French and eventually *mail* in English, by the thirteenth century. The term *chain-mail* first appears in the late eighteenth century. The authority for this derivation is the respected medieval arms expert Ewert Oakshott, albeit from one of his childrens books, *Dark Age Warrior* (which is what was handy :-)). For further information on Roman kit, look at an excellent standard work, H.Russell Robinson *Armour of Imperial Rome*. (That one is a grown-ups book, honestly!). IMHO the point is *mail*, or *scales* ( - or *wool* - ) is what a garment is made *from* and not really the name of the garment itself. *Mail* is not an exact synonym for *armour*, so I don?t really see how you can qualify it, as with *plate-mail* or *scale-mail*. On the other hand, terms like ring-mail etc are now generally known to a number of people from D&D or wherever and might be considered as modern names for the stuff. I don?t like the terms, I think they grate on the ear, but that is just me :-). I think it all depends if you see your kit being used in a hobby in the modern world or in the recreation of a world. Since I try and re-enact a period, I will try and use period terms when I can. I hope this was of interest. Bill Hubbard Non-SCA, but the same kind of thing (I think). Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard <b.hubbard at aston.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Help wanted for a long-sleeved hauberk Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:47:39 GMT I would say make your sleeves so that the ring-row direction continues on unbroken - the first of your alternatives. I am not aware of any byrnies which change construction halfway down the sleeve. The *Shirt of St Wenceslaus* in Prague, attributed to the thirteenth century, has sleeves in this unbroken fashion if you need a firm, early, referent. As for shaping the sleeve, take measurements around your gambeson so that you get an idea of where and how quickly it should taper. Work out roughly how many rows you will need and how many *columns* you will need at arm-pit and wrist. Then with the measurements you can easily work out a plan of *drop one row every X columns above the elbow, one row every Y columns below the elbow* To taper it, the way it is done on period examples is to scatter *dropped* rings into the mesh as you work down the arm. That is, do not put all of the 3-in-1 or 5-in-1 discontinuities in one place, or in one line etc. If they are scattered throughout the arm, then the pattern is maintained and the flexibility is not compromised. The joining of the links under the arm is a bit awkward as you are joining rows going at right angles to one another. I would suggest to try and maintain some semblance of the pattern for as long a possible, and just bodge it in the very arm pit :-) For this reason don't make the arm-hole too tight, or else it bunches up in your arm-pit. I hope this helps - Good Luck! Bill Hubbard From: pyuaq at csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G S Sutherland) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Help wanted for a long-sleeved hauberk Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:16:11 -0000 Organization: University of Warwick, Coventry, UK I'm currently attempting to construct a chain (or whatever is the correct term..:) ) hauberk with sleeves that reach the wrists, in the manner of a twelfth century example. First: what is the best way of doing the sleeves, I have seen two methords. One is where the sleeves are extended out from the body in the normal manner, as below (where | is the direction of the rows in the mail.) ........... ........... :|||||||||:...:|||||||||: '''''''':|||||||:'''''''' :|||||||: :|||||||: :|||||||: ''''''''' The second methord is to do what I've heard of is called a `mutton chop' sleeve, where the mail on the arm is made in a different direction, from about midway down the bicep. This is shown in the below `diagram'. ........... ........... :=====:|||:...:|||:=====: '''''''':|||||||:'''''''' :|||||||: :|||||||: :|||||||: ''''''''' Secondly, how do you recommend shaping the sleeve? It's going to require a taper at some point, and I was wondering where I should start it at. One suggestion was about midway down the upper arm, and continuing it until I reached just above the wrist. Graeme Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: Bill Hubbard <b.hubbard at aston.ac.uk> Subject: Difference between Roman and Medieval mail Organization: Information Systems, Aston University Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:40:13 GMT This is a VERY minor point, but it may be of interest. hagen at delta.hut.fi (T. Viljanen) wrote: >Yes. It was called lorica hamata, and it was identical to medieval mail. >Legionarii used it as their primary form of armor until ca. 50 AD, after >that date mainly Auxiliarii and Equites used it. Certainly it looks and functions the same, but there is a slight constructional difference. From the examples that I have seen, Roman mail was constructed of alternate rows of solid rings and riveted rings. If you have made the stuff you will know that you can make a byrnie two rows at a time, using a closing ring to join on the solid ones. By the medieval period, there was a change in construction to all riveted rings. Can this be taken to imply that it was *easier* to make riveted rings than solid ones? This seems a logical, but surprising, assumption to me. I find riveting the stuff incredibly fiddly and time-consuming. I think its interesting that period mail makers had their riveting procedure (of overlapping, swaging, piercing, rivet making, rivet insertion and rivet closure) so well refined that it was *easier* than overlapping and hammer welding a ring. A lot of books claim that the solid rings were punched out of plate using two round punches. In fact, although this seems reasonable, I think its very tricky to do this (even allowing for the fact I am only a very amateur metal worker :-)). The rings are so thin that you tend to get a lot of distortion as the punch pushes through. Specialist armour curators I have spoken to say that these solid rings all seem to be hammer welded. Has anyone got any evidence for other (period) methods of manufacture? This is, as I said, a very minor point: the mail is virtually the same. I don?t want to fuel the continuing postings about possible mail *types*: this is a chronological, not contemporary, difference. BTW, my impression is that the average ring size increased over time (Roman to Medieval) as well: however, it is rare that detailed information on average ring size and wire gauge is published, so this is based on the limited amount of mail I have handled myself and seen *in the flesh*. Unfortunate choice of phrase. Should have worn that gambeson :-) Bill Hubbard From: ajb at hms01.hms.uq.oz.au (Andrew Bennett) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need help with chain mail. Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:28:28 Organization: University of Queensland meananti at cwis.isu.edu (MEANS_ANTIGONE_M) writes: >From: meananti at cwis.isu.edu (MEANS_ANTIGONE_M) >Subject: Need help with chain mail. >Date: 12 Apr 1994 04:13:44 -0600 >Ok whats happened is I know how to make the Chain mail <I've done 3 full >suits and about 15 shirts in the last 10 years> but I'm getting lazy in >my old age and dont want to wrap the rings. Is there some where that >sells just plain metal rings? <about the circumfrence of a dime> If so >how much? I've found a few places here that sell what I'm looking for but >they want $0.40 EACH for the rings. If you guys can't help I guess I'll >just have to break down and wrap the wire. But I'm wanting to avoid that >Thank you E-mail would be warmly greated as I don't get to read the >newsreader that much >Shiva >meananti at cwis.isu.edu This may or may not be of help to you good sir. In addition to being in the SCA I am also in a metal weapons re-enactment group specialising in the third crusade. Predominantly our group wears chain- mail with some scale and a couple of ring-mail. In one of our standard hauberks there is approximately 18000 rings of 12mm diameter and naturally we (I especially) have no desire to wrap and cut that many rings by hand. The solution we came up with was unexpected but turned out to be ridiculously cheap and quite viable. What we came up with was this: we approached a local spring-maker and after looking at his machinery we found that it could be altered to suit our needs. Most springs are wound onto a rod in a similar fashion to what you proposed but the machine can be instructed to cut them after every revolution, instead of after say 20 or 40. So the result is that you just place a big tub beneath the end of the winding rod and the guillitine(sp?) cuts off the single rings into the tub. The manufacturer we spoke to was happy to do this for us, at whatever guage we required provided we order in lots of 50000 rings or more to make it economically viable for him too. It costs us about $40 (Australian) for 10000 rings so thats really GREAT value. Hope that this is of help to you. Crispin D'Andreuse (Andrew Bennett. Dept. HMS Uni of Qld) Brother of the Temple. Principality of Lochach, West Kingdom. From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.nyu.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Chain mail armour Date: 9 Sep 1994 15:47:17 GMT Organization: New York University, New York, NY bakerd2338 at cobra.uni.edu writ Description of chainmail manufacture - emphasis on uniformness. > > Gospodin Ivan "the Trouncable" Kuzmovich Velikov > This called to mind a recent trip to London. (if I forgot to thank anyone for sightseeing hints THANK YOU!!!) THe "oriental" armour exhibit was down for some junk jewelry exhibit, but the Armoury folks were real nice and let me look at stuff I expressly thought to ask about (you gotta be a student and have a real reason you wanna look at the stuff, the Law student thing wasn't very usefull but the armoury aprenticeship was ). Anyway, one thing I noticed as I lovingly fondled 16th century shirts of mail was that uniformity of mail did not seem to be much of a value. It was far less uniform then the butted mail we usually make. On the other hand, I've since made a few riveted links and they wind up with the same degree of variation as the originals (though I can't say for sure unless I make a whole shirt - and I'm not about to do that unless somone pays an awfull lot of money - Up front :-) Hey, are theree grants available for this sort of thing?) Peace! Nahum haKuzar From: tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: mail sizes, period Date: 19 Oct 1994 01:07:49 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Charles Lamb (clamb at pipeline.com) wrote: : Does anyone know what size wire and rings were commonly used : for period mail. I've seen plenty of mail but the period stuff : is usually secured behind glass where its very hard to measure. Pardon the delay in responding to the question posed, re: what size were the rings of mail in period. First, obviously they differed. Generally rings in mail got smaller as time went on and both metal and metalsmith got better. The following data comes from articles written by E. Martin Burgess, a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries(England) and published in the Antiquaries Journal. I quote from "The Mail Shirt From Sinigaglia" This mail shirt, which is now in the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh and was in the Meyrick and Noel Paton collecti