chainmail-msg – 1/8/08
Making chainmail. Mail armor.
NOTE: See also the files: merch-chainml-msg, chnmail-clean-msg, metals-msg, metalworking-msg, metal-sources-msg, chainmail-beg-art, merch-chainml-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: wayner at otc.otca.oz (Wayne Robinson)
Date: 26 Jun 90 22:59:45 GMT
tracker at wpi.wpi.edu (The Renegade Ranger) says:
> I am once again seeking answers that I have not. I am curious as to what
> reccomendations someone may make regarding the gauge of wire to make a sturdy
> suit of Chainmail.
For the final time guys, the real name is MAIL. Chainmail as a word is an
invention of Sir Walter Scott et al. Check any saga.
I'll give dimensions in millimeters as the gauges vary across the Pacific.
1.6mm gives good solid links in 6mm diameter suitable for coifs, gloves, etc.
This is the wire diameter of the Sutton Hoo suit, but the links were 9mm
internal in this case.
2mm wire works well on 12mm links for Celtic/Roman Hamata up to Saxon/Norman
period, although apart from the Celtic stuff, it won't be really authentic
unless you alternate punched and riveted rows.
For real solidity try six-link (each link passing through six others). My
wife is the first person in Australia to perfect ten-link. Sorry I can't
quote references, but I remember seeing a photo of a six-link glove
somewhere.
Wayne
Dryhtenfyrd (Look that up in your Anglo-Saxon
reader!)
From: sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali)
Date: 28 Jun 90 17:33:06 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Club, University of Waterloo
Peace be on the realto
Before I begin please don't think that I don't
value hand made things ,craftmanship,or the joy of doing it on your own,
the hard but fun way etc,but as one cannot learn everything or do everything
sometimes shortcuts outside your field are very valueable.
I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america
that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing
butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well.
Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make sheet
to order?
Second I have heard that an Italian company is making chain mail "cloth"
it is probably nickle plated copper but would be good for dress.
I have only found the shark resistant armour.It costs three thousand for
a full suit of titanium /aluminum welded link mail(nice if you've got the
bucks)custom fitted of course...
Also in this book on casting it shows you how to make a mold for casting
linear chain ,one day I'm going to try doing patches of chainmail...
Imagine producing a suit a day!
anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail
companies I would appreaciate it.
On the more conventional level work hardened alloys should be considered
aluminum weling rod work hardens considerably.1/8 dia. with 3/8 hole
is difficult,almost impossible to bend partly because it is so strong
and also because it is almost double 1/16 may not be strong enough to
fight in but for decoration its ok,can anyone find 3/32 aluminum welding rod?
Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half
surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders
it would generate!
lowly apprintice glassblower
p.s. its not hand made its
mouth blown
--
sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan
Qualil...............
From: palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com (Colonel Mode)
Date: 29 Jun 90 19:07:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali) writes...
>I have known for some time that there are two machines in north america
>that are capable of making chainmail.Presently they are both used for makeing
>butchers gloves($80/pair)they make them with welded links as well.
>Shurely someone must be able to locate one and find out if they can make
sheet
>to order?
>anyway if any one could inform me of the location of any premade mail
>companies I would appreaciate it.
I checked into this about a year ago. The company that makes bucher's
gauntlets, aprons, and shark suits is
Whiting and Davis
23 West Bacon St.
Plainville, Ma 02762
508-699-4411
Last I talked to them they absolutely refused to do any custom mesh, as they
call it. They do provide aluminum mail to hollywood for mail costumes, but
it's not suitable for SCA events and it tinkles, not chinks, as you walk because
it's too light. BTW, this comes in sheets, not ready-made garments. Also, the
marketing person I delt with had the brain of a brontosaurus and was
incredibly frustrating. So I consider them a dead-end/waste of time unless
you want the stainless steel butcher's gauntlets. They only sell them in quantity and they're about $150 *each*, not per pair, if I remember correctly, for the full-hand model.
*****
Chris Palmer
palmer at tallis.enet.dec.com
phone (508)486-6667 dtn 226-6667
From: kay at hjuxa.UUCP (KAY)
Date: 29 Jun 90 22:16:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp, Manalapan NJ
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu (Michael Badali):
> Finally the romans punched half the links and rivited the other half
> surly if someone made a die it would pay handsomely through all the orders
> it would generate!
I have seen this suggestion twice in the last couple of days. It occured to
me that a disk with a hole punched in it has a special name, it is called a
"washer" ;-). Duke Dagan in the Middle had a coif about 10 years ago that
was alternating rows of rings and narrow anulus washers (I may have the
wrong term, the hole matched the rings and the steel part was not too
wide). He claimed it was as supple and less maintanence compaired to a all
butted set.
Those who remember that coif may remember that it was black oxidized. This
is a form of weather proofing that involves repeated heating and quenching
in oil until you get a fine black finish that does not come off. As I
recall he did it at the Pizza joint he managed (using olive oil!).
As to closed links, Master Knut is still making riveted mail. I saw his
booth at Estrella in 1989 (I missed the merchants this year). He also did
some welded mail (a bit less time consuming if you use a spot-welder).
> sinbad at watcsc.waterloo.edu Habib Hasan
Qualil...............
> No disclamer:I stand behind what I say Michael Badali
Bart the Bewildered, Carillion, East
(Paul Kay, Freehold, NJ, USA)
(kay at unx.dec.com, bewildrd%bart at unx.dec.com)
From: ileaf!io!kopf!eisen at EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Carl West x4449)
Date: 28 Jun 90 18:56:03 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Gwilym,
Your idea about rivetted mail making using the retaining rings
is interesting, but it has a few flaws. You neglected to explain
how you plan to overlap the ends of these presumably heat-treated-
so-they-will-spring-back-to-their-original-shape retaining rings
so the rivets may be inserted. The plan for making rivets is an
interesting one but it will (I have determined this empirically)
result in a block of steel with a piece of rivet stock permanently
imbedded in it. Lastly, your numbers are a bit off, the 3500 rings
will produce rather less than 6 square feet of mail, enough to,
perhaps do sleeves and the tops of your shoulders. The general
estimate of rings needed for a hawberk is 30,000 to 40,000.
This has been a bunch of nay-saying and it sounds awful, I just
hope that you haven't sent off your money to these people. I too
have been working on tools and techniques for rivetted mail with
some slight success. Even if I get it going as well as I hope to
I expect I would have to charge 50 cents a link to make as reasonable
wage as a mailer as I do as a type designer. Ain't high-tech great!
Frydherik Eysenkopf
Carolingia,East/Boston,Mass.
From: rvd at bunker.UUCP (Robert Del Favero Jr.)
Date: 3 Jul 90 13:20:45 GMT
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company, Shelton, Ct
Steve Bloch (Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib to us) writes:
>By the way, I noticed somebody's post about the difficulty of making
>wire in period. Weren't the rings in most period mail ALL punched,
>with half of them then broken and riveted back together?
The journal Archaeologia published at least two articles some years
back containing metallurgical analyses of chainmail rings. The author
got some authentic chainmail rings and sectioned them for microscopic
analysis. He also did compsitional analysis on the steel. Maestro
Roberto has spent a lot of time with the articles, and this is what
he told me about them. (As best I remember it.) All of the
rings they looked at seem to have been made as follows:
1. Draw some wire with an elliptical cross section.
2. Wrap the wire around a circular rod. The major axis of the ellipse
is oriented radially to the rod. Cut individual rings from this
spring, with slightly overlapping ends.
3. While the ends of this wire loop are overlapping, punch a hole through
both ends at once. (How? Good question. When you figure it out,
tell Maestro Roberto, Carl of the West, and everyone else who's
been working on riveted mail. Please.) The hole should be wider
on the top than on the bottom.
4. Turn the ring over and put a short piece of smaller gauge wire in the
hole. The wire should stick up above the ring a little bit. Swat
the end of the wire with a hammer. This will peen up the wire rivet
and upset it so that it swells to fit on the rivet this way.)
A rough sketch:
Peen here
-\---------------- --------------------
----\ | |
----------/ \-------\______
/ \ \___
---------------- -----------------\-----
Punch hole from this side.
As I remember, the only rings that were punched as flat washers were
the brass ones that were stamped with the maker's mark on them. I don't
remember any welded rings, either.
I don't have the references for these articles here, but I can get them
for anybody who'd like. But it would be faster and easier for anyone who's
really interested to look for Archaeologia in the local university library.
The journal has its own indices, so the chainmail articles shouldn't be too
hard to find.
Vittorio del Fabbro
Myrkfaelinn in Exile
East Kingdom
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert V. Del Favero, Jr. ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company
rvd at clunker.uucp Shelton, Connecticut, USA
OR clunker!rvd at oliveb.atc.olivetti.com
From: Colin The Blackheart
To: Rolfe Von_Duerer Msg #287, 10-Jul-90 12:19pm
Subject: Re: Armor
RV>Good gentle if it were possible for a mail link knitting
RV>machine to be made some one ine the SCA would have one. Thy
RV>gauntlet hast been dropped, I challenge thee to find such a
It exists, and is patented even. Check out Best of Hammer #4. Patented about
1930, no machinery exists for it. But you've got PLENTY of technical drawings
to work from (grin).
Colin
From: MTG at cornellc.cit.cornell.EDU (Mike Garcia)
Date: 15 Apr 91 18:44:29 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Greetings all!
William de Corbie wrote (in part):
>P.P.S. Butted chainmail: Someone on the net claimed this did not
>exist in the real middle ages. But a friend of mine claims that one
>of the chainmail coifs from Visby is butted. Is there anyone out
>there who has the books and can check on this?
First, a little history:
In July, 1361, a Danish army invaded Gotland and quickly defeated the
the army that opposed them. The Danes them marched on Wisby. The town
rasied a milita for defense. In order to raise the troops the town had
to scrape the bottom of the manpower barrel quite vigerously. A third
of the militia was young boys and old men. Hunchbacks and cripples
also served. The militia was ill equiped and virtually untrained. The
results were predictable. There were 1800-2000 militia dead.
I checked "Armour from the Battle of Wisby, 1361" by Bengt Thordenman,
Ph.D. Here is what I found:
- 185 coifs were recovered from the mass graves.
- Coifs were composed of iron and bronze rings. The bronze rings
were on the edges of the coifs.
- There was no mention of a coif made up of butted rings.
- There was no mention of butted rings.
- There was speculation that if the iron rings were not riveted, they
were welded or stamped (solid disks). Due to rust, it was not
always possible to determine how the iron rings were closed.
- All bronze rings were riveted.
Since most of the bodies had be striped of armor, it is safe to assume
that these pieces were the LEAST valuable ones. This means that the
armor found in the mass graves at Wisby was the dreges of the dreges.
(The best armor was with the main army, leaving the dreges for the
militia. The Danes kept best of what was on the dead. Only after the
bodies had lain in the summer sun for several days was armor buried
with the dead.)
There are at least two very good reasons to think that butted mail was
not used in period. Butted mail weighs more that riveted mail and
butted mail will not stand up to arrows.
Here at Myrkfaelinn we have two mail shirts we ran some experiments on.
One was made of butted links by Ken Bender, the other was made of
welded links by Robert MacPherson.
Ken's shirt weighs 55 lb. Mac's shirt weighs 18 lb.
We hung both shirts from a rod passed through the arms and then fired a
number of arrows at them from several bows. The wimpiest bow was a
65lbf cross bow with an 9.5 inch draw (~310 lbf-in). The most powerful
bow was a "50 lb" longbow that was overdrawn 6 inches, for a 25 inch
draw, to 70lbf in draw weight (~875 lbf-in). (lbf = pound force = 4.45
Newtons, us Americans use good old fashion english units :-).)
Ken's shirt of butted mail was incapable of stopping any of the arrows.
After we had blown eight holes in his shirt, Ken refused to allow any
more shots. Mac and I wanted to find out how many layers we could
penetrate. Ken didn't want to fix any more holes.
Mac's shirt of welded mail was stopped every arrow. One of the longbow
shots struck sparks from the iron rings, but did not penetrate.
Mike Garcia
Cornell Universuty
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From: trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Date: 17 Apr 91 03:06:36 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum
I think it depends on your definition of period. According to Osprey Books (and
I know I've also read it elsewhere, but can't remember where at the moment) one
of the mail shirts in the Sutton Hoo trove was, upon radiogarphic examination,
found to be alternate rows of butted and rivetted rings.
Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed
repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty
convincing to me...
Elaine NicMaoilan
trifid at agora.rain.com
From: CKRUPP at UVMVM.BITNET (Christina Krupp)
Date: 18 Apr 91 15:05:24 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Greetings unto all from Countess Marieke! I have here the tome "The Sutton
Hoo Ship Burial" by Rupert Bruce-Mitford, published by British Museum
Publications in 1982. Volume 2 discusses the arms and armor. Chapter 4
discusses the mail coat, in great detail. This quote from pp. 236-7 may
be of interest in the current discussion:
"It does, however, clearly show, contrary to previously published
statements, that the mail was made of alternate rows of welded or forged
links and of riveted links." He explains the "previously published statements"
in a footnote: "E.g. Sir James Mann, referring to riveting of mail as universal
in the west, says 'the only exception in Europe' is the mail shirt found at
Sutton Hoo. 'Minute examination has shown that in this case the ends of the
rings are merely butted together as in much mail of Oriental origin...'(Mann,
in Stenton, 1957, p.62). ... The idea that the Sutton Hoo mailcoat was composed
of links with butted joints had been formulated by the Research Laboratory as
a result of visual examination, and only recent radiography has disclosed the
true construction."
From: vnend at spot.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Date: 23 Apr 91 00:39:24 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
)Beowulf describes mail shirts that were light enough to swim in, and needed
)repair after every battle. Although that's anecdotal evidence, it sounds pretty
)convincing to me...
)Elaine NicMaoilan
There was recently a discussion of this very passage going on over
in the Anglo-Saxon mailing list (mostly scholars talking *way* over my
head.) There is a significant body of thought that the word used there
and translated as 'swim' may mean 'sail' instead. Certainly, it seems,
the word has several meanings, among which are swim, sail and row, so
it seems that using this passage as documentation for light mail is suspect.
Kwellend-Njal
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