plastic-armor-msg - 10/17/00 Making plastic armor. NOTE: See also the files: armor-msg, p-armor-msg, armor-leather-msg, shields-msg, Shield-Balanc-art, gambesons-msg, coat-of-plates-msg, armor-chklst-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: fixit@astro.dasd.honeywell.com Subject: Re: How build plastic armour? Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 17:22:34 GMT Good health to you Lord Kimura your words: > Those barrels are uglu blue colour and thick plastic. Does anyone know > any hints how we can work with that material? My experiences: Rough cut it to size with a saw (power) Heat in an oven at 350 degrees until pliable Shape to fit or press over a mold Quench it in cold water to preserve shape Fine trim with a jewelers saw or drimmel or Clean up the edges with a torch Warnings: To much time in the oven will burn the piece Use the original curvature as much as possible in design It melts very easily with a torch Recomendations: Unless you WANT to look like Robo-Cop, cover it. Tabbard or Skarta and baggy pants. Paint doesn't adhere well. One person tried heating a piece of mail and melting a pattern into the plastic. The piece was then painted. The paint in the pattern lasted much longer. It makes very protective armour but it doesn't look so great. I like the low cost for getting new folk on the field. Most everyone 'round here replaces it eventually when they can get better gear. > Sorry about my english :-) No apologies necessary. Sorry I can't write Finnish. Gunwaldt From: faust@ace.com (Faust) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: How build plastic armour? Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 17:30:38 EST Organization: Argus Computerized Exchange a saw designed for cutting metal should work nicely, (a hacksaw) avoid any sort of melting, or 'hot knife' stuff, as plastic tends to be very toxic when burning. you will need to smooth the edges with fine sandpaper or polishing cloth. faust@ace.com Thomas of Berwick p.s. hit the barrel with sticks for a while, and see if the plastic takes the damage in a manner you can tolerate Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: treid@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Ambrose) Subject: Re: How build plastic armour? Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 13:22:19 GMT faust@ace.com (Faust) writes: >a saw designed for cutting metal should work nicely, (a hacksaw) >avoid any sort of melting, or 'hot knife' stuff, as plastic tends to be >very toxic when burning. >you will need to smooth the edges with fine sandpaper or polishing >cloth. >faust@ace.com Thomas of Berwick >p.s. hit the barrel with sticks for a while, and see if the plastic >takes the damage in a manner you can tolerate Our little armour makeing group has found that a jig saw quickest to cut the plastic. Then a piant scraper can be used to take the sharpness and the frills (produced by the jig saw) off the edge. A paint scraper is reuseable unlike sand paper. Then a heat gun to mold the plastic. Remember, everything loks good with a nice tabard! Ambrose Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance) Subject: Re: How build plastic armour? Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 22:26:33 GMT Kvedjur fra Mikjal! Be sure to check out the temperature range of the plastic you're making armor with, if at all possible, especially if you plan to do any outdoor fighting during cold weather seasons. Some grades of plastic barrels get brittle below certain temperatures. Baron Devin may remember the incident better than I, but I recall the early attemps at plastic barrel armor in the Shire of Swordcliffe, Midrealm (Springfield , IL). The full leg harness I saw worked fine all summer long. However, at the first real autumn tourney outdoors, the first solid shot to the cuisse blew a great hole in it. Seems the particular type of plastic got very brittle around 55 degree Fahrenheit. Moral: Check the cold weather properties of your plastic armor before trying to fight in it under those conditions. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: ab899@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu From: rcml@acpub.duke.edu (Robert Lonon) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: How build plastic armour? Date: 20 Sep 93 00:16:47 GMT Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C. If you're going to use plastic, a good way to hide it is to make it into Wisby plate armor. This gives you great protection, and hides the plastic at the same time. It's reasonably simple to make, and really low in cost. As an added benefit, it's (essentially) period as well. I've made more than one set, and if you cut the plastic at the correct angles, you don't even have to heat-form it. I've written up instructions on how do this, altho it hasn't been tested yet (ie given to people who don't have me on hand to ask questions). If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to try to email them a copy (altho I'm not that heavy of a net user; it might tak me a few trys to get it right). If you'd like a copy, email me at rcml@acpub.duke.edu. Any feedback would be appreciated as well. Corwyn Sinister Barony of Windmaster's Hill Kingdom of Atlantia Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson) Subject: Re: How build plastic armour? Organization: University of Waterloo Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 16:35:31 GMT BTW, You can reshape the plastic with a propane torch, a tub of water and two layers of gloves. Soaking the gloves in water gives you a "heat capacitor" which slows the transfer of heat from the plastic to your hands. You will have to hold the pieces briefly in the tub while the cool and fix to shape. This also "recharges" the gloves with cold water. Best bendings come from heating both sides of the bend, apply a bit of water to the surface of plastic, and reheating again before bending. This leads to a more uniform "softness" through the plastic and prevents melting of the outer plastic. Brian Goodheart the Warper Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith) Subject: Re: Plastic Armour Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 23:22:15 GMT Dan_J._Hurst@thequest.com (Dan J. Hurst) writes: >Yea, verily Yea! Mikjal, thou didst say unto All ... > > M(> Baron Devin may remember the incident better than I, but I recall the > M(> early attemps at plastic barrel armor in the Shire of Swordcliffe, > M(> Midrealm (Springfield , IL). The full leg harness I saw worked fine > M(> all summer long. However, at the first real autumn tourney outdoors, > M(> the first solid shot to the cuisse blew a great hole in it. Seems the > M(> particular type of plastic got very brittle around 55 degree > M(> Fahrenheit. > >Those leg harness were made from Kydex, not barrel plastic. The barrels .... >I had assumed they were using a similair material, because it was >described as "those ugly blue barrels". But then, we all know what >assumeing does. OK, here is the guide that I go by, and it seems to be OK: Ugly Blue barrels are OK, but chill a 2x6" piece in the freezer first. If it snaps, don't use it. (This goes for _all_ plastic) Barrels that contained the following should be OK: Kerosene (Dark green) Rust Check (Black, with textured surface) Industrial Pink Cleaner (Black, very variable thickness *caution*) If you can find out what sort of plastic it is, and you are not sure of its mechanical properties at cold temperatures check with an engineer or a chemist, they will be able to find data for you. In the near future, I hope to compile a list of 'acceptable' plastics. If such a list already exists, let me know. I plan on both a tensile strength test on real pieces at room temperature, and impact (charpy?) testing at 30, 20, 0, -10 Celcius. These I can then cross check with data from tested 1040 steel samples which would cover a similar area. I don't think that any harness tests would give any useful data. Any Opinions? Sebastian, who is momentarily playing the part of: Andrew Smith Mech. Engineering Student. M.U.N. amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca From: DDF2@cornell.edu (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plastic Armour Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:16:50 GMT Organization: Cornell Law School Eric Huber writes: > It's very affordable, I bought a really large sheet of it (more than enough > for what I need, I think it was around 7 or 8 square feet) for less than > 40 dollars. > > It's *doesn't* look very period however, so I plan to cover it with garb or > whatever. The Baron covered his armor with suede to make it look period. Leather of a thickness suitable for armor (about 13 ounce) can be purchased by mail for under $5 a square foot. Add another $1/square foot for beeswax and you have hardened leather at something pretty close to the price quoted here for plastic. It is easier to cut than plastic (a utility knife instead of a saw). You shape it by soaking instead of heating, which is probably means fewer burned fingers (although you will have to heat it after it is shaped, in order to harden it). On the other hand the leather is probably less flexible soaked than the plastic is heated, so it will be harder to do something which is supposed to end up very convex. And you save the cost and trouble of covering it with suede. David/Cariadoc DDF2@Cornell.Edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) Subject: Re: Plastic Armour Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 08:48:33 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith) writes: > Dan_J._Hurst@thequest.com (Dan J. Hurst) writes: >>Yea, verily Yea! Mikjal, thou didst say unto All ... >> >> M(> Baron Devin may remember the incident better than I, but I recall the >> M(> early attemps at plastic barrel armor in the Shire of Swordcliffe, >> M(> Midrealm (Springfield , IL). The full leg harness I saw worked fine >> M(> all summer long. However, at the first real autumn tourney outdoors, >> M(> the first solid shot to the cuisse blew a great hole in it. Seems the >> M(> particular type of plastic got very brittle around 55 degree >> M(> Fahrenheit. >> >>Those leg harness were made from Kydex, not barrel plastic. The barrels >.... >>I had assumed they were using a similair material, because it was >>described as "those ugly blue barrels". But then, we all know what >>assumeing does. > >OK, here is the guide that I go by, and it seems to be OK: > >Ugly Blue barrels are OK, but chill a 2x6" piece in the freezer first. >If it snaps, don't use it. (This goes for _all_ plastic) >Barrels that contained the following should be OK: >Kerosene (Dark green) >Rust Check (Black, with textured surface) >Industrial Pink Cleaner (Black, very variable thickness *caution*) Barrel plastic is low and sometimes medium density polyetheline. It isn't very good for armour. I reccomend buying a 4x8 sheet of the high density stuff from a plastic company. Carolus -- Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --Unknown net.person Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) Subject: Re: Plastic Armour Organization: University of Tennessee Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 20:18:13 GMT DDF2@cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes: >And you save the cost and trouble of covering it with suede. But it does have the tendency to go limp in hot weather or when it gets soaked. I would also tend to think that it sheds beeswax. >David/Cariadoc =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Mail to PA142548@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU. Mail to ARCHER at that address will bounce. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Plastic Armour Date: 5 Oct 93 13:18:42 Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture WRT to cheap armour : I recently completed a set of Wisby-style torso armor. (The latest Creative Anachronist is an Excellent treatise on armour-made-from-metal-plates-and-leather-or-fabric BTW, including the Wisby finds and later brigadine armour!) Total cost : about $5 for the 1/16" 6061T6 aluminum (doesn't show) about $7 for the heavy canvas it's riveted to about $1 for the little leather squares to reinforce the cloth under selected rivets about $7 for the rivets themselves ( #9 copper rivets) Took about 14 hours over the course of 5 days to build. Weighs under 10 pounds, breathes well (important in Phoenix AZ!). Very very comfortable, very protective when worn over the canvas-and-half-inch-felt gambeson I wear (which breathes and wicks sweat, BTW). The gambeson weighs as much as the armor, uses about $10 in materials, and about 20 hours of sewing to do, (sewing half-inch felt strips inside 2 layers of 11 ounce canvas takes time!) and is great in hot or as-cold-as-it-gets-in-AZ weather. I would have no reservation recomending this setup to someone who wants comfort, protection and good period _appearance_ in torso armour for under $30 all told. If you want to spend more, use leather instead of canvas : but that ups the price 100-200% ! Of course, having people around to teach you how to build this kind of stuff, and who have Beverly Shears (may they never rust!) is an enormous help. -- Dennis O'Connor doconnor@sedona.intel.com Intel i960(R) Microprocessor Division Solely responsible for what I do. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) Subject: Re: Pickle Barrel Plate?!? Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 05:54:47 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes: >zutzba@malins.mala.bc.ca writes: >]I would like to know if it is possible to fasten plate steel to pickle >] barrel? Would it cause the plastic to crack? It would not be of too heavy >] gauge metal, as the weight factor. The protection would be by the plastic >] and the looks by the metal. > >I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would go to all this effort >instead of just using a light-weight metal without any plastic. Aluminium >at a scrap dealer is $1.25 a pound, which is about 1 sq.ft. of 1/16th inch >aluminium. This is for nice never-used big sheet metal peices, not rubbish. > >Admitidly, it doesn't quite have the same color and patina as steel, >and it does not deep-dish well. But surely it's easier to make >and better looking than a metal-plastic sandwich ! > >Unless someone is building a plastic-metal sandwich shield, of course. >I wouldn't count on such a beast lasting too long, tho : metal and >plastic react so differently to impact, I'd be afraid such a shield >would be badly beaten out of shape before too long. I am on a quest to make my 1350 era harness look, and weigh, to truly period standards. The easiest way to do this is metal/plastic composites. My leg armour is extremely durable (no denting in 5months of use), attractive, and made of 1/8" high density poly etheline plastic, covered in heavy suede, studded with rivets for that 'splinted' look, and reinforced with 18ga metal. Based on it's current performance, I expect it to last many years. It's an unqualified success. Carolus Malvoix -- Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time, struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd. --Unknown net.person Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: jr1417@albnyvms.bitnet Subject: Re: Pickle Barrel Plate?!? Organization: University of Albany, SUNY Date: Fri, 8 Oct 93 04:14:42 GMT doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes: >zutzba@malins.mala.bc.ca writes: >]I would like to know if it is possible to fasten plate steel to pickle >] barrel? Would it cause the plastic to crack? It would not be of too heavy >] gauge metal, as the weight factor. The protection would be by the plastic >] and the looks by the metal. > >I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would go to all this effort >instead of just using a light-weight metal without any plastic. Aluminium >at a scrap dealer is $1.25 a pound, which is about 1 sq.ft. of 1/16th inch >aluminium. This is for nice never-used big sheet metal peices, not rubbish. well, aluminum has this nasty habit of stress cracking. and your average pickle-bucket won't pass inspection in the east without some reinforcing, i've had to learn. as a breast-plate it's too flexible. I my self use an old juice barrel cut into plates(trying to at least use a period pattern for my stuff, if not period materials...total cost: $12.00) much thicker plastic, and when it's on the strapping makes it more resiliant to shots, being under tension. i could see using aluminum to cover plastic, but then you are defeating the purpose of using plastic...weight. you just added all the weight back that you tried to lose by using plastic. see cariadoc's article on lamellar armor, if you want a good pattern. it's one of the best i've seen, and i've seen a few patterns. of course he would cry if he heard that it was being done in barrel plastic....:> on the other hand, plastic makes a good substitute for horn, which was used as armor, and is now much harder to come by. >Unless someone is building a plastic-metal sandwich shield, of course. >I wouldn't count on such a beast lasting too long, tho : metal and >plastic react so differently to impact, I'd be afraid such a shield >would be badly beaten out of shape before too long. i've seen some plastic/aluminum shields in use around here for about three years. they hold up better than plain aluminum, and don't show much sign of wear. i'm switching over to one this year, since they hold up so well. i've used a shield made from 9-ply, cabinet-maker grade plywood for years, and it's done well, but these aluminum/lexan shields appear to be indestructable! we're also experimenting with 2 layers of aluminum (we have left-over material when we make our shields) to see how well that holds up. plain T-6 signs just don't hold up well in combat if you make them only one layer thick. personally, i'll probably go back to my old wooden shield. my fighters are techno-buffs (they go to RPI-an engineering school...), but i'm a history major (sunya-1/4th the cost of rpi), and prefer the feel of something which at least approximates the real thing. however, today, if you want to be a serious fighter, tech makes the difference. a bascinet, or barbute, and kydex body harness makes a big difference over someone wearing a barrel helm and steel coat of plates in the woods. of course there are moments (the bridge battle) where having the extra pounds helps too!! if i had the cash, i'd get a set of both, because there would be a use for both. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: rynr_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Dave) Subject: Re: Plastic armour Organization: University of Rochester Computing Center Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 07:09:45 GMT >Does anyone know of a good way (actually I'd settle for a bad way at this >point) of bending plastic for armour without having to put it in some- >body's oven? I haven't an oven of my own and am loath to treat anybody >else's in such a manner. >Coinneach MacAonghais >Canton of Eoforwick First find a propane torch. Borrow one from a SCA friend, he (or she) probably has one. Heat the plastic and bend it to the shape you want. Then submerge in ice cold water to quench the plastic. Keep in the water for an hour or so and then you can go about with the piece. A cooler with 2 bags of ice and alot of water works great. By the way, BE CAREFULL. The plastic is HOT (yes i know you know but so did I outch!). Also some plastics can give off toxic vapors so try to heat it up in a ventalated area (like yout garage). Best of luck, Cohen the Tinker Thescore, Aethelmark. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bdorion@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Brian Dorion) Subject: Re: Plastic armour Organization: University of Waterloo Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:41:58 GMT Dave wrote: >First find a propane torch. Borrow one from a SCA friend, he (or she) >probably has one. Heat the plastic and bend it to the shape you want. >Then submerge in ice cold water to quench the plastic. Keep in the water >for an hour or so and then you can go about with the piece. A cooler with >2 bags of ice and alot of water works great. > >By the way, BE CAREFULL. The plastic is HOT (yes i know you know but so >did I outch!). Also some plastics can give off toxic vapors so try to heat >it up in a ventalated area (like yout garage). > >Best of luck, >Cohen the Tinker Thescore, Aethelmark. Hmmmm...My attempts to use a propane torch have not been too successful. I have found that a propane torch does not produce an even heat throughout the plastic. Rather it tends melt the plastic on the outside without heating the interior sufficently to mold the plastic. Because you've melted the outside it looks pretty bad as well. Cooling the plastic shouldn't take so long. I have found that five minutes under cold running water sufficent time to allow you to handle the plastic with bare hands. Konrad Matthias Jaeger Bryniau Tywynogg, Ealdormere Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: gregsta@microsoft.com (Gregory Stapleton) Subject: Re: Plastic armour Organization: microsoft.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 22:55:39 GMT I have tried this,and it does work, but it's not the safest method. I have had great success with an electric heat gun. It works great, is more controlable and less likely to cause a fire (at least not as quickly) than a lit propane torch. All in all, I would suggest finding a kind soul who makes plastic armour and request an evening with their oven. I use 3/8th inch ABS plastic sheet. Heated to 300-degrees Fahenheit for about 7 minutes. It comes out as pliable as wet leather of an equal thickness. My 2-cents worth. Gawaine Kilgore From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: bending plastic Date: 8 Nov 1993 10:26:25 -0500 >Does anyone know of a good way (actually I'd settle for a bad way at >this point) of bending plastic for armour without having to put it in >some- body's oven? I haven't an oven of my own and am loath to treat >anybody else's in such a manner. Actually, this might be of general interest for the newbie fighter types. First, check to see if it's thermoplastic! (Some types of plastic will burn before they melt) Try a _small_ piece, since burning plastic produces toxic fumes. 1) If you have a toaster oven and small pieces, put the pieces on aluminum foil. Set oven to about 400 or so, until it softens. Bend pieces as desired. Quench in cold water. 2) Boiling water will work for _some_ plastics. I haven't yet tried boiling oil. 3) _Very_ carefully hold the plastic above the burners. This is easier if you have a gas burner. Fujimoto From: ba09058@bingsuni.cc.binghamton.edu (ba09058) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: bending plastic Date: 11 Nov 1993 12:41:50 -0500 Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Another method is to get a PROPANE torch, the kind used for brass and copper plumbing work. You can get them in most Wal-Mart type stores in the hard ware section. They are excellent for heating barrel plastic (carwash soap barrels specifically). You should heat the plastic from both sides until it starts to flex. Water cooling is recomended as this method gets the plastic pretty hot, and standing around holding the plastic in shape for twenty minutes while it cools is pretty dull. (Needlessly time consuming too!) - Myrddin Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: gregsta@microsoft.com (Gregory Stapleton) Subject: Re: Gauntlet Questions Organization: Microsoft Corp. Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:18:20 GMT peterbi@microsoft.com wrote: > Good Day; I am working on some armor and a few questions have come to mind. > > What sort of wax is Courboulli (sp?) made with? (Beeswax, parafin, Italian > ear wax, etc.) > > Does anyone have any tips for handling/shaping ABS? I will be working with 1/8 > and 1/4 inch thicknesses, and I need to bend it. The heat gun has worked okay > for spot manipulation but what about whole pieces? People have mentioned the > oven but I don't know temperatures, times, etc. > > Any/all suggestions are appreciated. I am building some demi-period Japanese > hand guards that could be very cool looking and work at the same time, > and I really don't want to make too much of a hash of it. They have > cotton, leather and horse-hair padding, calfskin glove inners, and ABS outer > armor. > > Thanks very much for your time, > Peter (peterbi@microsfoft.com) I recently finished my 1/4" ABS armor and I heated the pieces in the oven at 300 degrees Farheniet for 5 to 7 minutes. You would need to check your pieces every 3 minutes or so and see how your oven performs, as ovens aren't all uniform, unfortunately. I liked to get the ABS as soft as well-soaked leather in terms of pliability. Use oven mitts to handle the pieces. Yours in Service, Gawain Kilgore Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: jbeltzner@TrentU.CA Subject: Re: Gauntlet Questions Organization: Trent University, Peterborough Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 05:38:35 GMT Peter Writes: >Does anyone have any tips for handling/shaping ABS? I will be working with 1/8 >and 1/4 inch thicknesses, and I need to bend it. The heat gun has worked okay >for spot manipulation but what about whole pieces? People have mentioned the >oven but I don't know temperatures, times, etc. > I've heard of the oven method as well, but don't realy recommend it... it smells up the house something awful and if you overcook it, you have a lot of really tough cleaning to do. Personally, I've found that using an old grill over the barbeque works great... how long do you leave it on there? Just keep schecking it every minute or so until you find that it's easily pliable... you may want to get a pair of cheap or old oven mitts for this task as well (cheap and old work OK... In service, Malachai Shel Ha Cheitz Shavar Petrea Thule, Septentria, Ealdormere JBELTZNER@TRENTU.CA From: dneedham@csi.compuserve.com (Douglas Wade Needham) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: plastic barrel armor Date: 24 Feb 1994 12:54:41 -0500 jf471003@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (J.Fleischer) writes: >In article <94052.145106IO10426@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, writes: >|> I have a question about the use of plastic barrels for armoring: > (..stuff..) >|> How well can the stuff be shaped/dished/stretched? I remember doing >|> stuff like that in metals shop in highschool, heating it up in a kiln >|> and then forming it as it cooled...could I use a conventional electric oven? >|> How durable is it for articulation? If I want holes to stay how far >|> or close to the edge of the lame or section is safe? Do they pull through >|> the plastic often? > (..more stuff..) >|> Marcellus >|> Endewearde > >Well, I originated my SCA career in a small college based shire.. and >plastic body armor was the _NORM_ there. :^) As you can imgaine it was very >practical as a cheap, easyily made armor for the transitory college fighting >population. During my stay I saw many different designs for the plastic armor >and there were two that stick in my mind as eminently practical and very sturdy >pieces of work. But neither one of these designs used _any_ articulation... and >in my experience it is very very unnessecary to articulate a plastic armor (at >least in the body). The only other things I've seen done with plastic are 1- peice >vambraces and the occaisonal plastic elbow cops... Although with ABS there have >been a couple of people who made succesfull articulations that I've heard of.. I >just dont know anything about how. (I think there was a merchant selling a full >gothic plate suit made of ABS at last Estrella... ) I love the cheap part! Except my vambraces and helmet, I use BLUE plastic armour. I have articulated legs and elbows (using the pattern from the KWHB with modifications...add about 2-3cm to each dimension to account for the thickness) and have hot glued padding to the inside of the armour. It works great, but you may go through 2 or 3 generations before you get it really confortable to wear. However, the body armour is still lacking and I am thinking of using a medium weight leather (7-8oz. or so) and placing plates inside of it. It does not match the looks of steel, and I always get ribbed about being a giant 6ft. blueberry by friends as I wear blue almost exclusively! Only other problem is it slips on many surfaces so fighting from the knees is somewhat difficult. > In my experience if you are taking this plastic from one of the big >55-gallon drums it almost never needs to be shaped.. the curvature is already >very close to most of the human body. But if you use pickle buckets for the >plastic you can shape them pretty well by using a $7 propane torch from >Wal-Mart.. just be careful about leaving the torch on any one spot to long.. you >can blacken and bubble and even (this takes a VERY long time) catch the plastic >on fire. Do this in a well ventilated room. As for making holes in the plastic a >regular power drill works just fine.. just give about a 1/4-/12 and inch from any >edge of the plate before you drill. I don't know about that oven thing.. never >tried it. But I hear thats how they do ABS.. > In service to the DREAM, > Caradoc ap Rhys Yes, a very ventilated room. (Here comes my HAZ-MAT training) The gases given off from hot plastic can be quite toxic even at low levels (I avoid PVC, try to avoid ABS, and prefer HDPE), and if any burning or charring occurs, you can get nasty things like HCN gas (quite deadly). Depending on the torch and the plastic, this may not take quite as long as you think. As for the oven, avoid it since ventilation is more difficult, and you get better temperature control (including localization of the heat) with the torch after a little practice. I have seen to many peices go from too stiff to being too hot and small in a very short time. IMHO With the torch this does not happen as easily and you can do some pretty tight turns this way. A couple of hints for you. 0) Practice heating some scraps before you ever heat a piece of your armour. Get a feel for how it works. Do it for every barrel (they do differ some) or if you have been away from it for more than a day or two. 1) Round the edges a bit (like \_/ ) then use the torch to lightly melt the plastic (Be really careful about ventilation at this stage and do it outside on a breezy day, standing upwind). This is about the only time I try to melt the plastic. Be careful about the liquid... need I say that it is hot, drips and runs, and that it is what will burn. Do this before bending. 2) To shape the plastic, heat it on both sides a bit, but put more heat on the outside of the curve (plastic will tend to curve away from the hotter side unless you start melting it). 3) Go slow. Let the heat soak in really well. Rushing just causes the outside to get too hot and possibly melt, and the curve will leave the piece sooner if you do not get the interior warm enough. 4) Use the bottom of the barrel as a cooling basin. Form the piece, tie it in shape if possible, then quench it in cold water. Let it soak the heat out when the shape is suitable. My first set of legs and arms were rushed and flattened out so that they became springs which wanted to keep my arms and legs straight. I used them at Pennsic two years ago, but after that they had already flattened from the warm sun. The legs I use now survived all last summer and never flattened a bit (even after getting hot enough to burn me a few times). You learn with practice and experimentation. Have fun and let me know how this works for you! +--------+ | * // | In service to the DREAM, the MidRealm, and the Marshallate... | // | Cinnion map Lluien map Higuel (of Tirnewydd) | // | Member: 38678 \ * * / ------ ******************************************************************************* Douglas Wade Needham BSD kernel programmer Email: dneedham@csi.compuserve.com -or- dneedham@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu USnail: Compuserve 216 S. Burgess Ave. 5000 Arlington Centre Blvd. Columbus OH 43204 Columbus, OH 43220 Voice: (614)457-8600 (614)274-0769 From: meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: plastic armor Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 00:44:58 EST Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op And then there was the infamous Stonemarche Industrial Strength Armor--for all I know it may still be kicking around the Barony somewhere.It was made from giant blue Industrial Floor Cleaner Containers. Whoever made the armor had the decency to paint most of it flat black, and the good humor to leave the breastplate unpainted. The writing on the breastplate read: DANGER! DO NOT USE NEAR YOUNG CHILDREN OR PETS. WARNING - MAY CAUSE WET AND SLIPPERY FLOORS. Of course, my personal favorite is the fighter at Pennsic who has the heater shield made from a traffic sign which says (facing the viewer) YIELD Megan, who remembers the days when "chainmail" was silver spray-painted waffle weave longjohns. == In 1994: Linda Anfuso In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644 YYY YYY meg@tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | |____n____| From: Jester.Of.Anglesea@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Jester Of Anglesea) Date: 25 Feb 94 17:01:06 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Plastic Armor Organization: Fidonet:TIDMADT 703-765-0822 (1:109/120) I'm currently getting rid of my plastic armor piece-by- piece as I replace it with metal or leather. It was constructed out of a black plastic 55-gallon barrel and was shaped by heating it in an electric oven, forming it to the appropriate shape, and then rapidly cooling it by dousing it with cold water. This procedure is dangerous if you are using an actual body for the forming process. When we make leg armor in this way (the only item we make using the human body as the form) we dress in two layers of sweat pants, get the pants soaking wet, and wrap a frozen towel (wet it, stick it in the freezer for two or three hours) around the leg. One person, wearing welder's gloves, holds the piece to the leg and another uses a garden hose to cool the piece off. My armor is lorica segmentata based on period illustrations, statues, and the reconstruction efforts of various scholars. I created a pattern that was fitted to my body, leaving a margin to be hand-trimmed to obtain the best fit. I used a jig-saw to cut the pieces to shape, sandpaper to smooth the edges, and a regular hand drill to drill holes. I left at least a quarter of an inch margin around each hole and have not experienced any ripping as of yet. I used ornate, brass door hinges to hold several pieces together and scrap leather to hold the rest. The only problem I encountered involved the rivets that I used. I was unable to find rivets with sufficient body length. Consequently, I've lost a piece or two when the rivet simply lost it's grip. I considered making elbows and knees but rejected the idea. I've seen too many people who suffered joint injuries to want to join their ranks, and while I feel that plastic armor is sufficient to protect my body I want *metal* on my joints. My plastic armor has kept me very safe. It's light enough to wear comfortably, rigid enough to take the sting out of a shot while still letting me accurately gauge the force of the blow. Because it is flat black it is very often mistaken for cuirboiled leather (even at short distances) and I've received a number of compliments on it. It's a good starter project and I highly recommend it. Good luck. Jester of Anglesea MKA: Tony Jordan From: michael.mccollum@dazed.charleston.sc.us (Michael Mccollum) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: plastic armour Date: 17 Mar 95 16:04:00 GMT Organization: Dazed & Confused BBS - Ladson, SC - 803.873.5797 Hiya Victoria, VG> And then there are some fighting personas that almost require the VG> use of plastic in order to present not only an authentic appearance, VG> but also an authentic fighting style. VG> I'm curious....if I used plastic armour...would painting it with VG> Aluminum paint make it more "period"? Or must I still put a tabard VG> over it? You'll probably receive lots of suggestions in this area, but I like my hubby's solution. When he has made plastic armour in the past, just before he was ready to strap each piece he would cover it with an appropriate color of velvet. He did this by applying 3-M Marine adhesive spray to the plastic then laid the velvet over it and applied pressure overnight. He trims the velvet so it overlaps the edges and applies the adhesive spray to the backside of the piece and applies pressure to it overnight again. Once the velvet is applied he puts his straps on. I've also seen him drill holes in the edges of the piece and after the velvet's on he puts decorative rivets around the piece. It turns out very nice this way and keeps him from having to wear lots of flowing surcoates, etc. I hope this suggestion finds some merit with you. Just trying to help out where I can. Katie aka Arianne From: Theo Wooten Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Plastic is Period! Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:31:27 -0700 I have been following this thread all the way down and I am having trouble with a number of points. So my friends settle back and get comfy because I am going to climb up on my soap box then step into the pulpit. Frist of all I would like to remind everybody of the Game that we Play. This is a game of make believe, a game of let's pretend. A Dream time......As they might have been, Not as they should have been. This is a game of Chivalry and Honor. We welcome any and all to the game. As time has gone on I have seen a change in the way the SCA has been played and it seems to me that people are more intereasted in politis and power bases and have for gotten what we are suppose to be doing, recreating the middle ages as they should have been. When I go to and event even though there are cars and plastic ice coolers and eye glasses I do not see the golf carts or the eleciric street lights for I see the middle ages, I see Kings and Queens, Knights and Lords, Ladys in pretty dresses and Chivlry is in the air. Please I beg of you remember the dream and the society we try to recreate. I hope that will clear up the point about Period. Point number two: I make plastic armor for a living. I do it seven days a week all day long and I can say that it is a lot of hard work. Just as much as steel for you have to still do all of the same steps as you do in steel. Oh by the way steel isn't period either. The modern steels that we use have too much nickel in them. Armor was made of pig iron and coke a very low grade of steel and that is why armor was known to shatter. Point Three: Pickle Barrel as it is known as is polyvinyl chloride alloying with acrylic. Better known as kydex I do not recommend this material for use as armor. It does not have the strength to withstand the blows of some of our figthers. In my armor that I make I use acrylonitrile butadiene styrene better known as ABS plastic. It has a much higher tensile strength than kydex and is uv resistance which stops it from breaking down in the sun. I can give you the numbers if you want them. All of my patterns were taken from real pices of armor and are as authentic as I can make them. I ask all of you to look at my home page at http://www.azstarnet.com/~kutedge/index.html then please tell me that my armor is period or not. And if not how may I make It more Period. Point Four: My frist suit of armor cost $20 dollars, it was carpet and duct tape. I have made suits of leather and steel. I have been in the society for 23 years and have been a knight for 22years and yes, I am the merchant at potrero that the gentle spoke of on an earlier thread. I can no longer fight on the field of honor due to a heart attack so I make armor to get as many fighters on the field to participate in the dream. So in closing dear friends just remember what dream we are trying to play and let all of us play whether you are a history buff or a fanticy Robin Hood,there is room for both. Lets have fun. In Service to a different dream, Count Master Sir Theo drawf monster Crusedeen, Lord Mightrinwood AoA, KSCA, Pel, O.Q.G., O.L.A., OoS. One of the Nine Worthes of the Known World Deputy Earl Marshall for the Kingdom of Atenveldt Theo Wooten Ye Olde Kutting Edge Armory 216 W Flores St. Tucson AZ 85705 (520)622-7234 kutedge@azstarnet.com Home Page:http://www.azstarnet.com/~kutedge/index.html From: amazing@mail.utexas.edu (dennis grace) To: ansteorra@eden.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:23:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Plastic for Armor Greetings, Mistress Gunnora and anyone else interested. Sir Lyonel here. As a fairly small fighter from a northern clime where everyone wears much armor (which means they all hit pretty hard, too), I have been a long time practitioner of the not-quite-forbidden art of plastic armor. It provides full coverage without adding much weight. >What kind of plastic is being used for armor? Where do you get it? Is it >being heat shaped? The plastics of choice for armor are ABS and Kydex. Kydex is stronger but costs almost twice as much as ABS and is dangerous to work. (I saw some other plastics mentioned in the Rialto archives, but I know nothing about them.) You can get either of these from nearly any plastics shop. A-1 and Regal, here in Austin, carry both varieties. 1/8" sheets of ABS run $48 per 4X8' sheet at A-1; I think the Kydex was about $78 per sheet. Both varieties also come in 3/16" sheets--highly recommended for leg armor--and the price increase tends to be directly proportional to the increase in material (i.e.--50% more than 1/8" sheets). >I have a set of knees and elbows made of some dark black plastic that are >really sturdy, and which I suspect were heat-shaped. I have some really >nifty A&S ideas that would involve using this type of plastic as molds and >frameworks and stuff. I'd really appreciate any information I can find >about this type of plastic. The plastic is most easily cut on a jigsaw, but I've usually used a set of beverly shears for the big cuts and a dremel tool for cleanup. You are no doubt correct about the heat shaping. It can be accomplished in at least three ways within my ken. My method of preference is an oven on a clean cookie sheet at 250F. After about five to ten minutes, the plastic softens to a consistency similar to that of supple leather. Handle the plastic only with heavy oven mitts or welder's gloves (tongs will scar the plastic). You'll have about five minutes to form the plastic. Remember, I was using ABS. Kydex takes (I think--check with your supplier) a 300F oven, and Kydex puts out cyanide gas if it gets too hot. You can also heat the plastic with an industrial hot air gun (blow dryer's don't generate enough heat), but this process is tedious and uneven. On of the Rialto archives also suggests a barbecue, which would avoid filling your home with that warm plastic smell. As for forming, I've primarily relied upon custom fitting. You place a wet towel over the appendage to be armored, and have your two helpers in oven mitts wrap the plastic over the appendage and hold/smooth it into place while you grow increasingly uncomfortable. With the 3/16" ABS, we always had to stop before the process was complete and change the towel. Otherwise the armored individual would suffer some rather large first-degree burns. You can use a similar method to form the plastic on molds that don't have too deep a curveor too many complex angles. You can also dish the leather-hard ABS into a stump concavity in much the same manner as steel. Instead of a ball-pean hammer, use a rubber mallet. You'll want to dish the plastic quickly and then quench it. The result is harder than the original. Sir Gaston (the knight who helped ESPN cover Estrella War a few years back) runs a special effects shop in Hollywood, and he makes most of his very fancy armour of ABS covered in colorful suede or velvet (I have photos, if you're interested). He uses a vacuum mold to make smooth round things. He tells me you don't need a fancy shop to do this, just make your molds of thick plaster or concrete, forming the mold with a 1/4" length of poly tubing (aquarium airline would do) pushed through before it dries (or carefully placed and poured around). To apply vacuum just attach a standard vacuum cleaner hose to the poly tube with (what else) massive amounts of duct tape. I hope some of this has been of assistance to you, Mistress. Come on out to Bryn Gwlad Fighter practice, and I'll show you my armor. Feel free to call or write if I can answer any further questions on this matter. You might also want to check those Rialto archive files. Yours in Sturdy Lightweight Service Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace ____________________________________ Dennis G. Grace Postmodern Medievalist From: dennis guy grace To: ansteorra@eden.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:49:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Plastic for Armor Sir Lyonel here. At 11:38 AM 10/14/96 +0000, Scot Eddy wrote: >I don't know what the official name for the plastic is (I've heard it >called Kydex, but I'm not sure whether that's correct or not) but it's >obtained most commonly from 55 gallon barrels bought from any car >wash. They are used to transport the detergent so be sure to wash them >out thouroughly in a carwash bay (the easiest way) > >The plastic is formed on of two ways that I know of. If there are >gentles who know of other ways please feel free to add those. Here is >how I have made shield baskets, elbows and knees, and other bits of >body armor. > >Heat your kitchen stove to 350 degrees, fill your sink with cold >water, cut your plastic in the desired shape, and place it in the >oven. WATCH it until it begins to droop (sorry there is no exact time >to leave it in) Using leather work gloves pull out the plastic and >form it. "Quench" it in the sink until it regains it's original >rigidity and hardness. A Drill and sabre saw are sufficent to work the >material. Sorry to nit-pick, but I consider this an important safety matter. First, I think most of the detergent bottles are ABS. Kydex is a bit expensive for such mundane uses and generally gets saved for things like furniture and truck beds and the like. Just on the (not so) off chance that I'm wrong, though, don't set your oven that high. Kydex exudes HCN before reaching that temperature. ABS doesn't put out the toxins, but it still smells worse at a higher temperature. Double checking my notes on the two plastics, I find that ABS will soften in a 250F oven and Kydex takes about 280 to 300F. Not much margin for error. Also, you can cut ABS on a beverly shears. >If you get black plastic it does a darned good job of imitating >leather courbuillie (sp?). See my klibanion that i wear on the field. >It definitely passes the 10 FT. rule. And, unlike real courbouille, the plastic won't absorb sweeat stench or soften when it gets wet. Unlike the SCA courbouille (wax-hardened), the plastic won't soften, sweat wax, or smell like honey on hot days. I've fought in my black ABS armor on 102F days (please, let's not get personal in the responses) and noted no consequent deformation. If the appearance bothers you, you can also cover the plastic with thin suede or cloth--glue them on with 3M marine cement or a similar compound--or hide them undera cyclas, tabard, or skarta. Yours in Virtual Service Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace Dennis G. Grace Postmodern Medievalist From: Scott White To: ansteorra@eden.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:07:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Plastic for Armor I've been making plastic armor from ABS for a while & even tried making 36-piece plastic finger gauntlets this weekend. (They came out looking like big, ridiculous Darth Vader hands and the plastic is just plain too thick to do really well-tuned fingers, but it was a fun project and will probably translate easily into mittens.) However, I learned a couple cool things this weekend. First, I had been shaping my pieces in an oven, which, like Jovian said, is cool for big things but tuning them using the oven can be a real bear. So I got a $20 heat gun and boy it works like a charm! It enabled me to shape & reshape all those small finger articulations with very little headache, plus it allowed me to make some much-needed adjustments on my other finished armor. A great tool for your arsenal! Second, a belt sander works best for rounding the edges of the plastic (DON'T skip this step or your armor will cut you to shreds!). However, I don't own one and spent a long time struggling to find a low-cost alternative. This weekend I happened upon it -- get a 2 1/2" barrel sander bit for your drill motor. Rough in the edges with that, Then spend a minute or two polishing w. fine sandpaper and it'll make those edges glassy smooth. By the way, folks, I AM going to cover the overly-shiny, overtly plastic stuff as soon as I get my designs tuned. It's not really that noticable on my vambraces & gorget, but I agree that the pauldrons do look sorta 'spacey.' At any rate, let's please NOT resurrect the silly & ugly steel/plastic debate recently banged out in rec.org.sca, OK? If you attend Bryn Gwlad fighter practices, look me up & I'll be happy to talk plastic with ya. Gnith From: amazing@mail.utexas.edu (dennis grace) To: ansteorra@eden.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:36:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Plastic Quenching Lyonel here. >Point of discussion on plastic armor: > >I started out quenching my pieces after baking but have since heard that >quenching degrades strength of plastic coz the molecules line up differently >when the outside is cooled more suddenly than the inside. > >I now let my armor air cool after baking but I really haven't done any A/B >strength comparisons between quenched & air-cooled armor. > >Any insight? C'est vrai. Sort of. The resultant plastic is harder, but that means it's also more brittle. We (my friends in the armoring group in Artemisia) allowed our armor to cool slowly when body forming or mold forming. The plastic keeps trying to relax, but you can smooth it back into shape with welding gloves or oven mitts. Also, for vacuum forming, the vacuum speeds the cooling process slightly and holds the shape until you turn off the vacuum. For dishing, however, you need to be able to quench the plastic. Otherwise, not only will you have to keep pounding for twenty minutes, but the plastic will end up too thin. Sir Wulfstan in the East Kingdom uses the dish/quench sequence for knees and elbows in part because it provides a deeper curve but also for the added hardness on those critical joints. Kutting Edge Armory (they advertise through Chivalry sports) uses press molds on their knees and elbows, and the resulting joints are not as deep or as solid. Yours in Plastic Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace ________________________ Dennis G. Grace Postmodern Medievalist Subject: Plastic armor Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 13:26:40 MST From: "tdowling" To: markh@risc I wandered into your site accidentally. I do not know too much about armor use but I can tell you a bit about plastics. Most plastic barrels are made of commodity grade polyethylene. This is a fairly inert polyolefin. Polypropylene another choice is similar, a little harder, and slightly less chemical resistant. The chemical resistance makes them almost impossible to paint, but some adhesives e.g. pressure sensitive gum-resins can used to attach foil or other lables. The poly clan varies in physical properties based on molecular weight, cross linking, branching and linearity of molecules. The barrels, unless they were made for food, pharmeceutical, or exacting chemical use may vary quite a bit in properties such as impact resistance at a given temp. This is because a buyer might say, get me 150 tons of LDPE at the best price on the spot market. So, you could have a range of quality in the finished, allegedly identical product. The person who suggested cold impact tests like charpy, etc. is right. Also heat forming the poly can alter the properties a bit so testing a sample that has been processsed might help. In the less critical applications these days, lots of recycled poly, usually dark grey or greenish is out there. This has unpredictable quality and inhomogenities that could lead to cracking. Long term exposure to petroleum products or toxic chemicals can permeate polyethylene rendering it weaker and toxic to heat or possibly cut. Colorants and UV resistance additives might also be present. Otherwise, virgin PE and PP are chemically related to candle wax, and not unusually toxic, even when burned. You might also look into vacuum forming. Lindsay Publications (do a net search) has lots of odd technology books, including info on DIY vacuum formers. With these techniques you could also get into high impact plastics such as Lexan (Merlon, in the U.K.). These might be obtained as scraps from a sign maker. Vandal resistant transit bus and other similar windows are also made from lexan. It is "soft" so it scratches and becomes less transparent, and may be retired while still mechanically strong enough for your uses. I also have seen an I.D. testing chart from a plastics industry council. This is out of print, but reappears from time to time as a promo item put out by plastics dealers and recyclers. Hope this helps. Tom Dowling tdowling@lsc,org Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:16:44 -0500 From: Tracey Steele To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA armor I do believe you are referring to Kidex (sp?) armor. Several members of my shire own pieces of it. One person in my household even bought an entire set of this armor at Gulf Wars! Below are two sites that might be useful to you. I hope this helps! Wisby Plate armor using plastic buckets: http://www.duke.edu/~ricks/wisbylb.htm Armoring site - their links page is wonderful!: http://www.armourarchive.com/frameset.html Cicilia Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:15:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA armor Kydex, though, can apparently become brittle when exposed to low temperatures for any length of time, so around here (MN) we use ABS plastic. Works the same way, but doesn't shatter in January. Pickle barrels are functional, but ugly. ABS and Kydex have the advantage that you can shape them to look like plate or leather. Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent Tor Aerie Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:19:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA armor > But... this other plastic mentioned.... Kydex and ABS plastic... where > is a reliable reasonable source to get this and what is a heat gun? > > Bere ABS and Kydex can be obtained in 4'x8' sheets. Check in the Yellow Pages for places that sell industrial plastics. For example, I found our usual supplier listed under Plastics--Rods, Tubes, Sheets, Etc. Cut it with a standard bandsaw or skilsaw, heat it in the oven at 300F until pliable. Form it over a body part or over a rigid heat-proof form. If you're using a body part, insulate it with a towel or similar so you don't burn yourself. It also insures room for padding the armor. Kydex comes in nifty colors, ABS I know comes in black and red. I've never seen it in any other color. You can sand it and drill it with no problems. High impact will cause it to fracture, though. My body armor, which is a modified Wisby coat, has plates of ABS to minimize the weight. My leg armor, shoulder spaulder and lames, and vambraces are also all ABS. The formed pieces were done over a metal form, or over my leg, depending on which piece. We used the heat gun to flare the edges of the knee cops after forming. A heat gun is like a heavy-duty hair dryer, that is used to heat-shrink shrink wrap packaging and other such applications. You could probably find one in a large hardware or home-improvement store, especially one that caters to contractors. Margaret FitzWilliam Tor Aerie Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:27:45 -0400 From: rmhowe To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA armor Bere Patterson wrote: > I had heard that a lot of folks use some plastic type substance that > can be heated in the oven then molded over the desired body part to form > a base for armor. Does anyone know off hand where I can get information > about this? > > Berengaria > costume@earthlink.net > www.patternsoftime.com There is/was a person doing this with Kydex in my kingdom years ago. After he badly burned himself by using his leg, which he thought was adequately covered to protect himself, he switched to what I believe he said were clay molds to drape the oven heated plastic over. He became quite adept at it, and made a number of armors for others. As I recall Kydex was a mixture of acrylic / pvc according to him. If Bauschamp? Paul still plays in Atlantia I don't know. I haven't seen him on our kingdom list. I took his armor class fifteen years ago. Having worked in a place that did vacuum forming I can tell you the temperature is several hundred degrees. When it starts to sag is when it's moldable. I do not advocate molding on body parts, and I suggest you ask someone in your area doing vacuumforming. Maybe get a look at the process. We generally used wood (cherry or mahogany) or aluminum molds cast from the wooden ones. How big? well, up to 5 x 6 feet and a quarter of an inch thick. Never handle hot plastic without protection and gloves. Melted plastic sticks to you and takes a while to cool. I used to solvent and stick weld and bend the stuff as well. Kydex I never worked with. Mostly ABS, PVC or styrene for what we did. Also polypropylene, polyethelene, acrylics, and polycarbonates. Magnus Subject: ANST - barrel armour Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 19:07:23 MST From: "Rhonda & Chuck Leggett" To: Greetings, my fellow subject. Please allow me to introduce myself. I am known as Marion du Massue (pronounced "Massey"), and I may be able to help with some of your questions. I have helped some few new fighters to build armour out of those big industrial plastic drums, and they are fairly simple, very sturdy, and easily maintained. First item: Make sure you know what they were used for. Car washes sometimes can be talked out of them (these are usually white), and you can feel fairly confident that whatever was in them was probably not a hazardous substance -- just rinse it out 'till there are no suds. If you buy them from a recycle place, you may want to make sure to find one with a contents label that is legible & understandable. Second item: Let's build something. I generally cut the ends off with a circular (power) saw, then cut it roughly in half lengthwise (end-to-end). Then I can cut some strips "crosswise" and some strips "lengthwise." This way, when I cut the panels, or plates, I have some curved in either direction to fit the shapes & contours of the body. The plates for the torso (kidney belt) are about 8-9 inches high by 4-5 inches wide; the upper chest and upper back plates are about 5 inches square, and the shoulders are about the same. Tassets (skirting) is a good idea, especially for inexperianced fighters, and can reduce the demand for leg armor (much more complex to make). Third item: Let's assemble it. My favorite means of assembly is to use round workboot laces, preferably long ones. They are tough, strong, readily available, and pre-threaded. A bootlace in the armor box IS your repair kit. Just remember when you drill the (pairs of) holes in your plates to drill them large enough to lace easily, but small enough that the knots (on the outside) can't pull through. Don't worry- the holes can't stretch. Now for the hard part: Although I have made knees & elbows out of this, it really isn't worth the effort. Cheap steel ones can be had, better & easier. However, if you wish, send me a fax # or a mailing address and I'll send you a pattern that can work with a heat gun & welding gloves. Since this material is a similar thickness to leather. then you can use a leather vambrace pattern and a heat gun (or oven), but be sure to allow room for padding. I will use this as a seguey to the last item: PAD it. This material has many advantages, one of which is NOT shock absorbancy. Helmets will have to addressed elsewhere. Sorry 'bout that. Hope this helps. It really is that simple. Yours in service, Marion du Massue (leggettr@netzero.net) Subject: ANST - Plastic armor Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:25:30 MST From: "Lawrence D. Ruiz" To: HL Isabol, Down here in Seawinds we have been making the plastic armor for the Youth Boffer and Youth Chivalric for a while mainly because the price is right up their alley (free). We use two basic patterns available on the web. The first is the Wisby coat of plates held together with Nylon Strapping, brass rivets, and parachute cord. To bend the plastic to conform to the human body (SECRET TRADE SECRET) Put the cut plastic in the oven at 250 degrees for 5 minutes. Pull the plastic out and form it to the shape you want then put it in a cold sink of water. The second design, segmenta lorica, I like better as it is more durable than the Wisby as all the pieces are glancing surfaces in the down direction (unless you hit the shoulders). This pattern is also available on the internet. We use Nylon strapping (1 1/2" wide and a little 1" for the buckles on the legs), parachute cord, and brass rivets. The next design that we have not had anyone interested in making, but is possible is lamellar. This would look sharp with different color parachute cord on a black barrel. Several variations of this pattern is available on the web. Someone mentioned before the white plastic barrel. These can be used to make bone armor. Construction time for a suit is usually about 20 hours. A typical teenager uses a barrel and a half for an entire suit of armor (we don't use 4" from the end of the barrels as the plastic is too thick there). To clean a barrel with acid in it, use a base, like baking soda and water. We rinse the barrels three times with baking soda before working on them. Our barrels cost us $10 each. Hope this helps, HL Isabol, and anyone else interested in getting their children in armor. Ld. Lawrence the Rampant of Ram's Isle Subject: Re: ANST - Plastic armor Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:07:56 MST From: JEvans5420@aol.com To: ansteorra@ansteorra.org < Edited by Mark S. Harris armor-plastic-msg