armor-msg - 9/27/08 General comments on armor, SCA armor. NOTE: See also the files: armor-leather-msg, armor-plastic-msg, duct-tape-msg, p-armor-msg, pottery-wepns-msg, rattan-msg, SCAweapons-msg, chainmail-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Ioseph of Locksley To: All Date: 02-Jun-90 12:23pm Subject: Armour In re: the continuing conversation about armour.... The absolute best amour I ever saw was (is?) used by Sir Gaston, late of Atenveldt and now being annoying over in Caid. He walked out on the field in a most gorgeous Cavalier outfit, and put on his helm. His opponent goggled at him, and then walked over to ask if he had on *any* armour at *all.* Gaston rapped his sword over his whole body with satisfying -thunk- sounds....he had sewn plates under the beautiful Cavalier! From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Alternatives to Hockey Plastic In the discussion of people with plastic armor, two important points seem to have been largely, although not entirely, neglected. 1. It is possible to make plastic armor that is not obviously out of period. One example is a Visby Coat made of leather, using plastic for the (out of sight) plates. Aside from the sound when it is hit, and the light weight, it might as well be steel. On this subject, Rhys writes "If anyone claims this (hidden plastic armor) is unneccessary and should be avoided... I'd ask what their helm is lined with. Straw?" Since you asked, my helmet is padded with horsehair. I have been using it for years, and it works very well. I confess that the design is not based on any period original, but I have seen pictures, and one of these years ... . 2. It is possible to make light armor that not only looks period but is period. I have an article on hardened leather armor forthcoming in T.I. which discusses the subject in some detail. If you are willing to accept fairly minimal legal protection (i.e. body protection suitable for a sword and shield fighter who does not get in messy melees very often), you can cover your body with hardened leather lamellar for a cost of about twenty dollars and a weight of about five or six pounds (a little more for giants). For another two pounds of weight and another ten or fifteen dollars you can use 13 ounce leather instead of 8 ounce leather in the vulnerable places, and have body armor that should be entirely adequate for most fighters. I have made two klibanions in the former version and am currently converting one of them into the latter. My previous body armor was a Char Aina of 18 guage steel. It only weighs about six pounds and provides very good protection, although less coverage and much less flexibility than the lammellar. Cariadoc curved blades Date: 7 Feb 92 From: MPFOSTER at mtus5.cts.mtu.EDU (Wulfgar Silberbar) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Yes, there is an advantage to straight bladed swords in SCA combat. Straight blades will strike quicker (the end reaches the target slightly faster than a curved end would) and are harder to block (curved blades are the opposite of hafted weapons; an axe can strike over a shield, but a curved blade will strike "under" the shield, as it were). I hear that curved blades to not hit as hard (they were designed to slice, not hack). Curved blades had but a single edge. So why use a curved blade? Because if everybody used a long, straight, double-edged sword, we would be the Society for UN-Creative Anachronism. I applaud those who use weapons based on their personna, rather than the best weapons available. The same with armor (I'm trying to convince my hips that they won't hurt that much when I switch to "authentic", rather than "protective" tassets). Wulfgar Silberbaer Open Faced SCA Helm_ Date: 15 Jun 92 From: Nils Hammer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Some time back it was said that early period people couldn't have a period helm and fight in it too. Here in the BMDL (East) we have a fighter who made an open faced helm designed to be used with an armor-mask like the japanese use. The mask is blued much darker than the shiny nasaled helmet. from a distance it looks disturbingly like an unauthorizable helm. I have suggested that he glue a beard to it, but I suspect that he doesn't want to cover up his handwork. When not fighting the helm can be worn alone for a decidedly period appearance. Nils nh0g at andrew.cmu.edu BMDL Pittsburgh Date: 13 Jun 92 From: parr at acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes: >>I note that you express no reservations about my preferred materials >>for construction (to wit--stainless steel). Still . . . I'd like to >>expand on it a bit. Given the effort it takes to keep armor looking >>good (knights in rusty armor? Nah . . .), and the lack of my time and >>household labor, I consider stainless to be a non-accidental , valid >>compromise. At least--it still looks like steel. The alternative >>would be a carbon steel (or, really, a wrought iron) with a good >>coating of black on it. I don't really think that'll work with mail. > >I hadn't express any either, but since you ask... :-) > >Stainless never looks right to me, but gualvanized metal, once the >"new" has worn off, looks much better. It still doesn't rust and >needs little if any upkeep, but doesn't have that bright stainless >steel shine. > >I'm not complaining about those who choose stainless, but since you >asked (more or less) what people thought about it... Easy answer to this one....Don't polish the stainless in the first place;-) Make it smooth and shiny, but don't buff it or go all the way to emery paper, and it never gets that chrome look. Granted, it still has a different tone from mild steel, but so do thr differing grades and alloys, which are in turn *very* different from the (poor) steels of the middle ages... This is one place where I like to apply the "they'd have used it if they had it" rule... Carolus Mediocris, Montengarde An Tir From: Joe Bethancourt_ To: Charly The Bastard Re: Unobtrusive SCA-legal armor for early periods___________ Date: 13 Jun 92 -=> Charly the Bastard said to Michael A. Chance on 06-06-92 21:06 <=- MA>Ideally, I'd like to get a set of fully articulated knee armor, complete MA>with reverse articulation on the back of the knees, similar to Henry MA>VIII's foot armor in the Tower. Then, I wouldn't need the wings, and MA>could wear them under a pair of breeches. But I've yet to find an SCA MA>armorer who'd attempt it, and I can't afford the Royal Armory's MA>prices! 8-) CtB> CtB> If you can come up with a good set of drawings or photos, I MIGHT be CtB> persuaded to take a crack at it. If so, send to Dwarven Metals, 333 CtB> SE 39th, Oklahoma City, Okla. 73129. If I can fabricate the items, CtB> they won't be cheap, but they'll fit and work. CtB> charly the Bastard, HMFIC, Dwarven Metals You both might want to talk to Sir "I don't have a Laurel, but I -do- have an Oscar.." Gaston, of Dilligent Dwarves in N. Hollywood CA. He built a suit of plate that fits -under- his Cavalier outfit. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ross at chem.queensu.ca (Ross Dickson) Subject: Re: arrows and armor Summary: A reference! Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University Date: Sun, 9 May 1993 02:17:12 GMT Greetings, all you military historians! I was today discussing this matter of arrow penetration with my good friend Godwin Hrothmundsson, whom some of you may remember as Graydon the Curious. He showed me a recent (1992) article on the very subject which addresses some of the questions which have been raised here on the Rialto. First, the citation: Peter N. Jones, "The Metallography and Relative Effectiveness of Arrowheads and Armor During the Middle Ages." _Materials_Characterization_, vol. 29, pp.111-117 (1992). [A periodical published by Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., 655 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10010] To summarize the relevant points, Jones and his colleagues have examined surviving arrowheads (broadheads and bodkins) and armour to ascertain their construction and hardness. He mentions that Robert Hardy demonstrated in _Longbow_ that mail was ineffective against the longbow, and that mail was the "principal protection worn by the French cavalry at Crecy" in 1346, but that plate armour was in wide use by the time of Agincourt in 1415, the last great victory of the longbow. The hardness of plate armour samples from the period improves steadily through the Hundred Years War and into the sixteenth century, which Jones suggests contributed to the demise of the longbow. He gives tables of samples which show the Vickers Hardness Number of some armour pieces increasing from 100-140 early in the 1400s to 240-250 by 1550. By contrast, the bodkins studied were typically 350 Vickers Hardness Number. Furthermore, plate was distributed on the body economically, thickest in the faces of helms, and thinnest in arm and leg armour. Thicknesses from 1.2 mm up to 4.5 mm were found in armour pieces from the late 1300s. Mr. Denis Gotts fabricated some bodkin arrowheads with the methods and materials determined earlier, and these were assembled into arrows by Mr. John Waller, who then shot them at samples of wrought iron rolled down to thicknesses of 3 mm, 2 mm, and 1 mm, using a 70 pound self yew bow (28 inch draw, 10 meter range). Penetration was achieved on the 1 mm sheet at angles of up to 20 degrees from straight on. No useful penetration was achieved on the 2 or 3 mm plate. One straight-on trial on the 2 mm plate penetrated 11 mm (less than half an inch). Jones concludes: "These results indicate that the pattern of damage inflicted on an advance of armored infantry at the Battle of Agincourt would have been one of many disabling wounds [esp. to the arms and legs] and few fatalities. ... It also shows that in the earlier battles (Crecy in 1346 and Poitiers in 1356) the longbow would have been extremely lethal and that in later battles, when armor had been further improved, it would become marginal." He also points out, along the way, that "the records of the holdings of arrows in HM Tower of London for 1356 indicate there were over 400,000, and enormous stock and procurement problem," and calls this "perhaps the most impressive finding from this investigation." Yours academically, Angus Boghadair Mackintosh, Greyfells | Ross M. Dickson, Queen's Univ. Ealdormere, Midrealm | Kingston, Ontario, Canada Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Griff Griffith) Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Organization: Multimedia Software Technology Group Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 14:44:51 GMT Get in touch with R. J. Leahy, Inc. of San Francisco - That's where I got my rivets from... They'll ship and bill you upon request. :-) and I got a good bunch of standard 1/8" x 3/8" metal rivets. (shoot, price was something like $28 for about 5 lbs? I think??) :Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore. :griff at ibeam.intel.com :SCA!: Lord Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, : Sargeant of Three Mountains : Marshall of Dragons' Mist, An Tir From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Date: 30 Jun 93 08:48:31 Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes: ] The advice I received from this list has helped me on my mail and arming ] doublet, and I am ready for a new armoring question. What are good to use ] for rivets? All I can find in hardware stores are pop-rivets, and I am ] doubtful about them. I need rivets for a variety of uses: ] 1) Attach metal plates to leather for a coat of plates and gauntlets. ] 2) Rivet metal to metal for a helm. ] 3) Attach leather straps to metal plates for arms and legs. In these parts, metal-to-metal connections are usually done with solid soft iron rivets and burrs (washers). Leather-to-metal connections are usually done with solid copper rivets and burrs. Tandy Leather sells copper rivets and burrs, but is pricey. We found a better source of copper rivert at a local place that does saddle repairs (calld Boston Shoe Store, for some reason). $9 for 1 pound ( about 100 1" rivets and 100 burrs: 1" is longer than you need, but we have monster flush-cutters in our horse supplies. ) Iron rivets I usually buy off a local SCA armourer. -- Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com Intel i960(R) Microprocessor Division Solely responsible for what I do. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 17:22:16 GMT For joining leather to leather, or leather to metal, use copper rivets. The wide head and the "washer" on the back keeps the rivet from pulling through the leather when it is under stress (mostly). You will need to make a hole in the leather before you insert your rivet using a belt punch or an awl. Slits in the leather tear. If you have a very long shanked copper rivet and you are paranoid about the leather pulling through, you can use a standard galvanized washer with the same i.d. as the washer you are replacing and a much wider diameter. You need the longer shank since the new washer will be thicker. For joining metal to metal, you need machinists rivets. Flat headed rivets are period (they were called "arming nails"), but the round headed rivets flatten if they are peened on a hard flat surface. DO NOT use an anvil face to do this. It will leave little round dents in the anvil which will take forever to grind and polish out. Obviously you will have to drill out holes where you want to place your rivets. Make the hole just a bit wider than the shank of the rivet, since the shank will expand when you peen the end over. If you want the rive to pivot or slide, put a washer between the metal and peened end of the rivet and be careful peening the end. To peen the rivet shank over so that it will hold, use a ball peen hammer and carefully upset the rivet working around the edges of the rivet so that you flatten the shank evenly. A well set rivet should look just as pretty from the inside as from the outside. For more on medieval armoring techniques, see -Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight- by Miles Edge and Neil Paddock -The Armorer and his Craft- by Ffoulkes (Dover reprint ed. in print.) Lothar Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: griff at anvil.intel.com (Griff Griffith) Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Organization: Multimedia Software Technology Group Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 20:52:39 GMT In article , fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU writes: > Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > From: fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU > Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets > > thomas barnes writes: " 3/8" ... rivets" > 3/8" ? my G-d! talk about big! > We use 3/16" and I thought they looked a bit bulky... > > Peace! > Nahum Oh Gawd - did I say 3/8" -- You're right, Milord, I *did* mean 3/16.... :-) - Cyrus :Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : iNTEL, Hillsboro Ore. :griff at ibeam.intel.com :SCA!: Lord Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, : Sargeant of Three Mountains : Marshall of Dragons' Mist, An Tir From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle FitzWilliam) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Light, Breathable Armor Date: 5 Aug 1993 19:02:54 GMT Organization: Bergental, East Kingdom Keywords: armor Jalut (Guy Wells) asks about typical armor worn, and armor that has breathing capability. On the first question, my armor is a combination of wax-hardened leather, steel splints, and plate steel. The body is leather (hardened) rivetted to leather (oiled). I sweat a lot. ;-) >Is there such a thing as "breathable plastic?" Or "breathing steel?" There is an illustration in Rene' d'Anjou's Tournament Book, showing a breast plate that has many holes in it (probably between 1/2 and 3/4 inch diameter). A surcoat was worn over this armor. I recently saw a fighter wearing something similar, made of black plastic, again covered by a surcoat (although the sides were exposed -- he wanted a new tabard). So, I would say, yes, there is such a thing as "breathable" armor. Lyle FitzWilliam ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249 From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Light, Breathable Armor Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 10:27:32 Organization: University of Arkansas Summary: sources, how-to questions Keywords: armor >Basically, I'm looking for ideas on what to put together that still >provides beyond adequate protection. I currently wear a padded gambeson, >breast and back plates, mantle and pauldrons, vambraces... So you get >the idea, I'm almost completely covered. OR does anyone have any >armorers who have had to deal with this sort of thing, and already have >a system in place? >Is there such a thing as "breathable plastic?" Or "breathing steel?" >Jalut Here in southern Calontir (NW Arkansas) we regulary face 90-100+ weather. (humintity 80-90%) Those of us who, like your self, require max protection wear coats of plates with out gambisons. Since our weapons don't have real pokies plates can have 1'-2" gaps to let air flow through the armor. (I use .5" straps to connect the plates.) The strapping allows the armor to be flexable while still protecting against the heavest blows. I also glue 1/8th" neaprem (sp?) foam to the inside of the plates for padding. (some plates might require more in you take more blows there.) Wearing a light cotten 'fighting shirt' under a coat of plates helps with 'wicking' of heat/sweat. My personal armor has 12 plates. Two dished plates on the belly/cheast (sort of a split globebos.) two over the shoulder next to the neck, these cover the collor bone and the tissues on the top of the shoulder. ( from these I suspend trollabite paldrons and roundels to protect the shoulder joint. I don't count this as part of the body armor for plate count.) These connect to shoulder blade shaped shoulder blade plates have sole leather connecting them over the spine and tope three virtabrea (sp?). From this is supended two 4" wide plates down the spine to the tail bone. ( the bottom plate is curved out to match the curve at the bottem of the spine. This makes it more comfy to fight from your knees from.) Two large curved plates are connected to the sides of the spine plates. The wrap around to the front and are connected to the front plates by strap/buckle arrangments. Two plates allow for lots of movement and still protects from the shot to the ribs. If you tighten up the side plate the weight is kept of the shoulders. This type coat of plates is called 'Pavel Plate' around here. its designed to let old fat guys with artificial joints survive on the field with young jocks with great swords. (was designed by myself and Her Majesty Arion the Herion many moons ago.) If you want a pattern contact me Snail Mail or phone, After Pensic Hell, Come to Grimfells some week end, buy the supplies, and I'll make you a set. (I've given 27 sets of this armor away. ) Pavel Calontir Paul A. Byers 220 W. Lafayette Fayetteville, AR 72701 (501) 443-7174 (501) 442-6086 FAX PAULB at SATURN.UARK.EDU From: PORTERG at gems.vcu.EDU (Greg Porter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Tuchux, Fools and armor cooling device Date: 28 Aug 1993 17:46:17 -0400 Greetings to the Rialto: I do not know any of the Tuchux personally, but a lady who was with the group that came to the Drachenwald encampment before the field battle helped me get the celtic chariot and King Elfin to the field in style, and she and another gentle helped me get it back to the Drachnwald camp after- wards, for which they received much thanks and water (off-site water, so it didn't taste like the bottom of a mine). Concerning the Fools' Parade and the annoyed lady: you never know what kind of a day someone has had before you get to them. Pennsic has the potential to be very stressful, especially to people in authority. Before complaining of her loud response to your intended tomfoolery, it would be kindest to give her some leeway for her actions. You may have been the last straw in a rough day. Coolness and armor: Lab Saftey Supply Inc., PO Box 1368, Janesville, WI, 53547-1368 phone: 1-800-356-0783 (6am to 9pm CT) carries thermal vests which are lightweight and easily cleanable. The vest contains 6 reusable hot or cold packs depending on the temperature desired. It is recommended that the vest be worn over a light shirt. I don't know if this would work for fighters under armor, but it might be worth checking out as a way to reduce heatstroke. The vests come in men's sizes (S,M,L), and two colors (blue, and blaze orange). One blue vest costs $30.85 (orange $35.85). If you buy 6, the price drops to $27.80 ($32.30). Item # Blue is QC-7637; Orange# is QC-20534. Fare well, Morgan Wolfsinger (Catherine DeMott) by my lord's net access Barony of Caer Mear, Atlantia (Richmond, VA) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance) Subject: Re: Hand protection for early Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 23:20:34 GMT Kvedjur fra Mikjal! I sympathize with those who have early SCA characters with regards to hand protection for combat. Having started fighting in the Midrealm, I fought with hockey gloves for many years (making sure that I bought quality gloves, and not beat-up kid's hockey gloves with little or no protective value from a garage sale). While they provided usually adequate protection (and with a bit of modification, better than adequate for combat with polearms and two-handed weapons forms), they never _looked_ right. And, as I got more concerned about the appearance of my armor, they became downright embarassing. All that ended when I moved to Ansteorra from Drachenwald. Ansteorran armor standards do not permit un-modified hockey gloves, and don't permit the type of modifications that I'd made to mine. Not having the time nor talent to make a pair of leather gauntlets that would protect my hands to my satisfaction, I bought a pair of steel gauntlets. And promptly went down to the local hardware store, bought a can of Rustoleum leather brown spray paint, and painted the things brown. Made the armorer cringe, but they don't look nearly as out of place with an attempt at late 11th century Varangian armor. Heck, I've even had folks approach me with the intent of asking who made my "leather" gauntlets, until they get close enough to see that they're just painted steel. It's not perfect, but it suffices. I've done it to my steel articulated knees, as well, which makes Count Valerius' (their maker) apprentices groan. He just sighed. Adding anything over hockey gloves just looks dumb. It's nearly impossible to make them look anything like medieval armor. And they usually have so much padding that it makes your hands look huge. They may be OK (with help) as starter armor (if you can find a good, inexpensive pair), but you need to upgrade them as soon as you can. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc3078 at sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 17:30:26 GMT Oh yeah, another thing. The magic word is 3/8" machinists rivets. If you scrounge (or phone) enough you'll find a place that has them. These work fine for attaching metal to metal. Space them 1" to 2" apart, depending on how you want your helm to look and how strong you want it to be. They should be placed at least 1/4" in from any edge so they don't tear out under stress. Pop rivets are completely unacceptable for most purposes. They are too weak to use for armoring, and tend to tear out of leather straps. For leather, you want 1/4" copper rivets with washers and a 1/2" to 3/4" shank. You can get them at the same place you got your machinist rivets, or at tack or leather stores. These work fine for attaching leather to leather and straps to metal. Don't skimp on the straps. You want nice thick, leather - belt weight at least. In high stress areas or areas where a thin strap would cut into you use a wider strap. Another good book: The Best of the Hammer Vol. 1 -4 ed. Brian Flax. Pub. by Raymond's Quiet Press. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) Subject: Re: rivets, rivets, rivets Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 18:15:39 GMT tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes: |> Oh yeah, another thing. The magic word is 3/8" machinists |> rivets. If you scrounge (or phone) enough you'll find a place that has Ummm...do they make armour differently out your way? Around here, the standard rivet has a 1/8" diameter shaft and a length of 3/8". Some people use 3/16" diameter rivets for helms. The largest rivet I ever use is 1/4" diameter for knee articulations. |> them. These work fine for attaching metal to metal. Space them 1" to 2" |> apart, depending on how you want your helm to look and how strong you |> want it to be. They should be placed at least 1/4" in from any edge so |> they don't tear out under stress. |> Pop rivets are completely unacceptable for most purposes. They |> are too weak to use for armoring, and tend to tear out of leather |> straps. |> For leather, you want 1/4" copper rivets with washers and a 1/2" |> to 3/4" shank. You can get them at the same place you got your machinist Do they make 1/4" diameter saddlers rivets? I think you mean 1/8" diameter. And the 'washers' are usually called 'burrs' in this context. I think the difference is that a washer is intended to fit loosely on a bolt shaft, while a burr fits snuggly on the rivet shaft. So if you ask for 1/8" washers you will get something different than if you ask for 1/8" burrs. But then, you can always make your own from scrap copper or brass. |> rivets, or at tack or leather stores. These work fine for attaching |> leather to leather and straps to metal. Don't skimp on the straps. You |> want nice thick, leather - belt weight at least. In high stress areas or |> areas where a thin strap would cut into you use a wider strap. |> |> Another good book: |> |> The Best of the Hammer Vol. 1 -4 ed. Brian Flax. Pub. by |> Raymond's Quiet Press. Here's another tip! Rather than using standard drill bits, ask for 'stubbs'. These bits are short (don't need to be long) so they are harder to break. The point is also designed to be self centering, so you don't need to mark your hole with a punch. Some of them are double ended which gives you more bang for the buck, but I've been told they are lower quality than the single ended ones. Cheers, Balderik From: harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Harold Kraus Jr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Metal in period Date: 18 Oct 1993 16:07:42 -0500 Organization: Kansas State University Ahoy! Folks write: >> > ...SI units please ... >> >> Well, I believe he posted inch thicknesses as the principal... >> ...In general, however, U.S. gauges of thickness are reciprocals of >> fractions of inches. That is, x gauge = 1/x inches = 25/x mm. >> >> Thus, roughly: > !!!^^^^^^^!!! >[conversion deleted] >This is very roughly indeed, and accurate to a factor 2 or so. >Gauges for plate are not gauges for wire are not gauges for pipe >etc. etc. And a factor of 2 would set 16ga. in the range of 11 ga. No direct relationship between gauge numbers and thickness was ever intended, as far as I can tell. I presume that much confusion over the relationship stems from the apparent coincidence that for 16ga., 16ga. = .0625in = 1/16in = 1.59mm. The relationship holds only for the Birmingham Gage, as far as I know, not necessarily true for other standards and other metals. Historicly, US sheet metal gauges are a *weight* per square foot standard and were originally based on a density of 480 pounds/cu. ft. for wrought iron, not steel which has a different density. For gauges 3 to 14, oz/sf = 190 - 10*gauge number 14 to 16, oz/sf = 120 - 5*gauge number 16 to 20, oz/sf = 104 - 5*guage number The Manufactures' Standard Gage for Sheet Steel is based on a weight of 41.82 pounds for a 1 inch thick, 1 square foot piece of steel. This value is an adjustment for the variation of thickness from the edge to the middle of rolled sheet steel. I understand that the basic value for steel density is actually 40.8 pounds per 1x12x12 inch steel. Some Values: Gauge Inches mm. 10 .1345 3.416 11 .1196 3.039 12 .1046 2.657 13 .0897 2.278 14 .0747 1.897 15 .0673 1.709 16 .0598 1.519 (not exactly 1/16 inch) 17 .0538 1.367 18 .0478 1.214 19 .0418 1.062 20 .0359 .912 However, I think any such industrial standardization is OOP. :) So back to a more SCA relevant discussion. :) What of those who wish to portray lightly or unarmored personnas? Plastic is fine for hiding under fighting garb (or woad wet-suits). I use aluminum because 1) its is a metal and not obviously non-steel (pollished) at a distance so it does not need to be covered with garb 2) it does not rust so it always gives that clean-living immage 3) IMO, many period pieces (16-18ga) would stand the service seen from weekly practices and tourneys 4) I have no natual padding so I like rigid plate (hardened leather doesn't cut it for me 5) Aluminum allows me to have thicker- and stronger-than-period plate to help me surive, without undue dammage and discomfort, many times the number of pactices, wars, and tourneys the typical medieval noble experienced 6) I don't own any slaves so I'd have to hammer out dents and scour off rust myself (and if I did own slaves, I'd still have to feed, cloth, and house them, Ah-hah, so thats where SCA squires come in!). Much the same argument can be made for the use of plastic save for its blatantly modern apperance when uncovered. Clovis wrote: >I don't know how things really work, but I do know that for instance >plate is sold as 16 gauge but is rolled down to thinner dimensions. Thinner than 1/16 inch, yes; thinner than .0598, not really. >At least there is a very rigid definition of the meter, and thus the >millimeter as well. 16ga tolerance is about +/- .007in (+/- .178mm) There is also a rigid definition for an inch. >Plate dimensions varied depending on time and use. Extremes that I >have seen here in Europe are several cm (over one inch) thick jousting >chest plates and under 1 mm (1/25th inch) for lames on 16th century >equestrian leg armour. 1mm = 19-20ga. IMO, 18ga steel, while period and safe (in good condition), will not stand up to SCA use unless you rarely fight or rarely get hit. Anything less is not much better than tinfoil. Point to ponder....We SCA fighters are to act out all blows as though we are wearing armour that protects no more than chainmail regaurdless of personna or actual equipment. Should we also act out all fighting as though our armour weighs as much as chainmail (60-70 lbs of armor for 10-15 pounds worth of protection) regaurdless of personna or actual equipment? I think not. Harald Isenross, Spinning Winds, Calontir, harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu From: mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: More period armor Date: Sat, 09 Oct 93 22:06:36 GMT v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu writes: > Personally, I think armor-equalization is a good idea. Plastic > might be discouraged by making it count as "no armor" if concealed, or > making the person have to stand there looking like a pickle barrel... My personal is 11th Century Icelandic Mercenary - who would have worn no armour on his legs, or possibly arms. I conceal plastic legs under baggy trousers, and have been told it looks very nice. I currently wear no body armour bar a very thick gambeson, and hope to complete a set of boiled/waxed leather Lamellar some day. Forearm protection consists of splint steel over leather. Since the Society has adopted "light chain over leather" with an open faced helm, as being the defacto armour for all, why should allowance be made for anything else? Your suggestion would heavily influence fighters to adopt armour not worn by their persona, or a persona who would have worn such armour. Much of the diversity and interest in armour making would be removed (for me), and fighting would become just a little more boring. Thorfyrd Hakonson, Shire of Southron Gaard, Caid Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz From: AGrunow at vitgwms1.telecom.telecom012.telememo.AU (Grunow, Aroleon) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: RE: Spun-top helmet noise problem Date: 25 Oct 1993 20:35:24 -0400 > how to reduce the noise level inside certain helmets, especially > spun-tops If you have not yet made the helmet, and are rivetting the bottom/back of the helmet to the spun-dome top, put a strip of light leather between the two plates when rivetting. If the helmet is already made, glue strips of light leather about an inch wide to the inside of the dome, and glue the padding over that. You could put a helmet roll on the outside of the helmet, and/or hang chainmail from the bottom of the helmet. > I don't have any idea what a spun-top helm is It is a turned bowl of metal, usually 14 gauge to start with, and becomes 16 gauge after spinning. I don't know how they are made, but they look like a salad bowl and have marks in them from turning. You use the dome for the top of the helm and add a backplate and faceplate, resulting in a round-top helm. Hope this helps. ----------Sven the Stormdriven (Aroleon Grunow)--------- Knight Marshal of the Principality of Lochac (Australia) in the Kingdom of the West AGrunow at VITGWMS1.TELECOM.telecom012.telememo.au -------------------------------------------------------- From: mjohnso7 at osf1.gmu.EDU (Michael P Johnson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Armor Question on Period Date: 16 Mar 1995 22:07:34 -0500 To have all o your basic armor questions answered, check your local library or bookstore for a book entitled The Armourer and His Craft, by Ffoulke. It gives a good over view of armor history, and production techniques. It was the first book that my teacher had me read and I still use it as a reference, because I'm still learning. To answer your question, yes, plate and mail were worn together, from the beginning of the fourteenth century onward through the fifteenth century. Visored helms also started appearing in the fourteenth century with the adent of the bascnet with the hound skull face plate. This progressed into several different types of visored helms. The sallet and armet became popular during the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries, but mainly in the fifteenth. The armet progressed into the close helm. Well, I could go on and on about armor. If you have any other questions, let me know, and I'll answer them as best as I can. Lord Ingelri Kelvin Argent Company From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Armor Question on Period Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:47:49 -0700 mjohnso7 at osf1.gmu.EDU (Michael P Johnson) wrote: >To have all o your basic armor questions answered, check your local >library or bookstore for a book entitled The Armourer and His Craft, by >Ffoulke. It gives a good over view of armor history, and production >techniques. It was the first book that my teacher had me read and I >still use it as a reference, because I'm still learning. To answer your >question, yes, plate and mail were worn together, from the beginning of >the fourteenth century onward through the fifteenth century. Visored >helms also started appearing in the fourteenth century with the adent of >the bascnet with the hound skull face plate. This progressed into >several different types of visored helms. The sallet and armet became >popular during the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries, but >mainly in the fifteenth. The armet progressed into the close helm. >Well, I could go on and on about armor. If you have any other questions, >let me know, and I'll answer them as best as I can. Be aware of the errors that ffoulkes makes. He makes several "observations" about banded "mail" and ring "mail" that I can find documented nowhere but in his book. Page 47 shows several drawings of armor "constructions" that, to the best of my research, do not exist, did not exist, and aren't really workable. -- John Groseclose From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Armor Question on Period Date: 19 Mar 1995 19:48:57 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Summary: Other sources John Groseclose wrote: >mjohnso7 at osf1.gmu.EDU (Michael P Johnson) wrote: >>To have all o your basic armor questions answered, check your local The best one I've run into is in most large libraries but is out of print: European Armour by Claude Blair. Be very careful with anything published before about 1950, and very very careful of anything published in the 19th century. One major problem for novice armorers is that the armorers of the SCA have acquired a huge amount of information which is not published in written form anywhere; the best source for this is The Hammer but it stopped publishing quite a few years ago and some of things described in it have been replaced by others (such as the method of making bascinets, now commonly done with the "3-cut" process that you can see on most SCA bascinets now sold. For example, many of the armorers at Pennsic make their cops by welding two pieces together in order to get a sharp vertical line. It is actually faster and the product more reliable if you do it the correct way, as the weld will always fail. So the best way is to find a local armorer and watch what they do. If no one is local, go to an armorers's event or visit the armorers at a large event such as Pennsic. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: crystal at io.com (Derk Groeneveld) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Metal Scales from Australia Date: 13 Jun 1995 15:51:01 GMT [ Article crossposted from soc.history.living ] [ Author was Derk Groeneveld ] [ Posted on 12 Jun 1995 22:54:02 GMT ] Today, a package arrived on the mail that made me a happy man indeed. Inside I found the 1000 or so metal scales that Bill O'connel sent me... they really do look _great_, anyone ccontemplating scale armour, don't go through the awful trouble of making them yourself, order them from bill.. at australian $ 110, INCLUDING postage to the Netherlands, for 1000 scales (should be more then enough for a byrnie), I for one won't go through the pain of making them myself. Technical details: thickness: 0.8mm Length: 3.7cm width: 2.5cm weight (1000 scales): +-5kg transit time 2 weeks (Australia - Netherlands, Economy Air Mail) There are also a number of double-sized sccales, for on the shoulders, which have oval adges on both sides ad holes in the center - found 7, so far. I think they're made of steel (correct me if wrong, Bill), of the NON-stainless type, for authentiic look. They have some spots of rust on, but that is to be expected in sheet metal - nothing a good polisghing won't cure... Overall, very good quality - clean cuts, clean holes (two of them along the top)... the bottom edges are neatle rounded in a semi-circle. I'll get back to y'all once I made a byrnie out of the scales, and share the experience with all... Anybody interested can either contacct me (crystal at io.com) or bill (bill at iinet.net.au) cheers, Derk Groeneveld P.S. I have NO commerccial interest in this at all, although I hope that if a lot more people get interested, there might be room for more such initiaativves.. P.P.S. although I have a US email address, I really do live in the Netherlands... Honestly! From: tjustus at sprynet.com (T. Justus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Late Period Armor Padding (lengthy) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:56:04 GMT On 21 Mar 1997 22:57:22 GMT, kymrii at aol.com (Kymrii) wrote: >Could someone comment on late period armor paddong methods, and their >effectiveness for SCA sport combat armor? So many people put so much time >and money into period armor that it seems a shame to put it all over >closed cell foam if there is an alternative. I assume that by late period you are refering to the 16th century, in Europe. Unfortunately armor padding has been neglected by the professional armor scholars-- I asked David Edge (curator of the Wallace Collection) about this specifically, and that was the response I got. Someone can make him-or-herself THE expert pretty easily.... a surprising amount has survived. I have examined a couple of 16th/17th c helmet paddings. (A cabacet and a burgonet.) Both were made of quilted linen with tow stuffing. The linings were stitched to a leather band rivited on the inside of the helmet, and laced together at the top of the crown. This creates a suspension system akin to those in modern football and military helmets. Such a padding would be too thin for SCA-style high impact fighting. It is fairly simple to cover a closed cell foam pad with fabric, however, and (I'm told) makes it much more comfortable to wear. The padding can be laced to an interior leather band, but if the helmet is snug enough friction will keep it in place. Experiment with lacing the crown together-- I have heard complaints that it does the job too well and makes blow acknowledgement very difficult. As for padding the body armor, the high quality pieces in the 16th c were often padded throughout, both to absorb shock and sound and to protect the elegant gilding and etching from being scraped by adjacent pieces, such as pauldrons. (besides, red leather picadils look SO refined, especially against blued steel...) It was not as common to pad the harness as you go down the social ladder. I won't say it was never done, but I'd say it was quite rare for the common soldier to have padding anywhere on his armor (except the helmet). He wore the padding on his body, in the form of a padded doublet of cloth or leather. The pikeman of Elizabeth's day wore a helmet, a gorget, a breastplate with tassets and backplate and a full arm harness with pauldrons and gauntlets. Troops would "lose" the less useful pieces on campaign, such as the arm defenses. A Trained Bandsman of no pretensions would have just a helmet and a jack or breastplate. If you were to do an SCA interpretation of the average soldier you'd have to put selective protection under your clothing to meet requirements. Fortunately this is not too difficult to do and retain the correct profile. Although hideable arm and leg armor will be easier to find than proper 16th c gear, you'l have to be prepared to replace your breeches on a regular basis, especially if you fight from your knees much. A couple of books to look at: The Armada Campaign by John Tincey, Osprey Elite series #15 and Patterns of Fashion 3: the Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women c1560-1620 by Janet Arnold. I know this response was lengthy and digressive but I hope it answered your question. Tracy (not Tom) Justus known as Clare de Crecy BTW, there was a lovely morion padding at auction in England last year. It was red silk velvet tie-tacked with yellow silk ribbons! The photo was spectacular, wish I could have seen the real thing! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 00:14:52 -0500 To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG From: Dennis and/or Dory Grace Subject: Re: ANST - Re: ANST-Field Personnas? Salut, mes Cosyns, Lyonel aisai. Lord Stefan posts Master Ioseph's: >The absolute best armour I ever saw was (is?) used by Sir Gaston, late >of Atenveldt and now being annoying over in Caid. >He walked out on the field in a most gorgeous Cavalier outfit, and put >on his helm. His opponent goggled at him, and then walked over to ask if >he had on *any* armour at *all.* >Gaston rapped his sword over his whole body with satisfying -thunk- >sounds....he had sewn plates under the beautiful Cavalier! Yep. ABS plastic plates. I've not only seen the suit, I have it on video; Sir Gaston wore it for the ESPN segment on Estrella War a few years back. Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace _____________________________ Dennis Grace University of Texas at Austin English Department Recovering Medievalist Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:45:52 -0400 From: rmhowe Subject: Lamellar Armour From: battleax at swbell.net Subject: Re: Lamelar ? Morganna, Check with the Armour Archive at http://www.armourarchive.com/ The Armour Archive has a lot of people who can give you information about the Birka Lamellar. Use the search engine and enter "lamellar", it should give you lots of articles. I have never found a good single source of information about the Birka lamellar, only bits and pieces in different books. The archeologist Bengt Thordeman gets mentioned a lot in relation to the Birka lamellar, and his name might be a starting place for finding information. I hope you can read Swedish. :) Lamellar was mostly an Eastern form of armor, but the Vikings were closely linked through trade with the Byzantines so they had access to products from that part of the world. I think there was also (again, Eastern-influenced) lamellar used in Northern Europe in the 6th century or so. I don't know if this style of lamellar was still in use at the start of Viking age, but someone else might. Since Birka was a trading city, I guess the lamellar there most likely came from their ties to Constantinople. A group of people on the Armour Archive just combined funds to have Birka lamellar plates stamped by a professional metal shop. They have already closed the order for the stainless steel plates, but I think the aluminum plate order is still open. Look at figure 5 on this link: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/perfect_armor.html --Cariadoc has a drawing of a Birka plate. This link has information on the lacing of lamellar: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/lamellar.html If you do find a good single source of info about the Birka lamellar (like a book), please let me know. Good luck and Happy Armoring! Thorfinn [contributed by L. Allison Poinvillars de Tours. LYN M PARKINSON ] From: DuaneII at aol.com To: sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [ae-mod] Re: armor authenticity Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:33:25 EST Greetings List from Alexander Caithnes; I have been reading this thread and have now chosen to reply in my capacity as a Knight and Laurel (Armoring). This argument has been around as long as I have been in the SCA (I joined in 1978). Many Kingdoms have tried to force "period armor" upon their subjects and all attempts have failed. Why, because of most of the reasons you all have listed, primarily, nobody has come up with a reasonable way to get a period look without spending a small fortune. My position has always been that a fighter should look as "period " as possible recognizing time spent in the club, availability of funds and desire to look the part. Not everyone is here for the same reason(s). Having said this, is there a solution for a person with a limited budget who wants to try? Here's my reply: First, you have to have a design that can be made with a minimum of tools. Expenditures on tools alone could bankrupt a beginner. Second, the armor has to be functional. SCA fighting is different from period fighting. Most period armors will not function properly for SCA use. Third, materials have to be sufficient to withstand the abuse of fighting and cheap enough to be affordable. Having said all this I am going to skirt the issue of helms. Most folks can get one if they try. After all there is some cost of entry in to any new activity you'd like to try. On to the armor. I've fought in and constructed armor from the 11th-14th centuries. I've even fought in carpet armor and a freon can helm. (Yes, there is still photographic proof of this around. We all have to start somewhere.) So what in my experience works and meets the above criteria? Here goes: Foot protection- This is a difficult area to cover and protect. Feet are very important and you can't fight well unless your feet are free from undo burden/pain. After trying a variety of footwear I keep coming back to sneakers. (Pause to let the shock and horror of this statement go away - Imagine, a Laurel in sneakers - piffle!!!) But, my sneakers are a bit different. They are covered in a layer of upholstery velvet to make them look like period shoes. Added cost - $3.00 in material/ 2 hours in time/ Tools - sewing needle, thread and contact cement. Shins - This area is possibly more troublesome than the foot. Many solutions have been tried. Unfortunately there is no good solution here. But there are some options: 1) Plastic (Pickle barrel or Joint Compound buckets) covered by threws and crossgarters. (Bloody Vikings) Cost ~ 5.00/each- Tools - Drill, knife and hammer. Time ~ 2 hours each. Materials - Plastic- Rivets and strapping material and buckles. 2) Leather half greaves with plain or decorate splints. Cost ~15.00 each- Tools - add to the above list a Saber Saw and heavy hunk of iron to pound upon. Materials 4-6 oz leather. Time ~ 3 hours each. Materials - same as above but substitute leather for plastic. You might even add a spiffy velvet covering. 3) Knees - Not many options here either - But most folks can manage to make dished knees using steel of 16 ga or better and a ball-peen hammer and a dishing stump. The design to go for in an unarticulated 13th/early 14th century look with side roundel Without the roundel these knees can be hidden under threws and will protect the average new person from harm. Most folks have or have access to a hammer and dishing stumps do grow on trees. ;-) Is the result great? No, but it looks a whole lot better than K-Mart specials. Cost $4.00 steel - Leather straps and buckles $5.00. Tools - see above - Time ~ 10 hours if you're working with steel for the first time. Cuisses - Here is where a beginner can really save $$$. Heavy canvas covered with upholstery velvet and lined with splints made from Saudi Arabian Whalebone ( That's pickle bucket plastic to the non-armoring types.) This is cheaper than leather, easier to work than steel and is very comfortable. The biggest outlay is in speed rivets required to hold everything together. Cost - ~ $25.00 or less for the set. Tools - Scissors, barge cement, an awl/ drill, knife, hammer, something heavy and metallic to set the rivets against, and a saber saw. Time investment ~ 5 hours. Armoring the body can be done in several different ways - Early period types might want to get themselves down to the Goodwill/Salvation Army and purchase a large women's leather coat ( the kind who's hemline approaches the knees) and line the thing with small rectangular plates. If this is not an option the armored sir-coat of the 11th and 12th century can be made from S_A Whalebone and heavy canvas covered in a fabric of your choice. You can even paint your arms upon it for that special added touch! For the more adventurous a trip to the Library will yield a variety of patterns based upon the Visby dig, all which can be constructed from canvas and plastic. ( With snappy upholstery velvet covering of course) Tools - as per the cuisses- Materials - as per the cuisses. Cost ~ $30.00 for the non-leather coat option. Time ~ 15 hours. Shoulders - These can be covered with dished spaulders - See knees for time/materials/cost. Arms - Again, judicious use of canvas and plastic or plastic covered in velvet works great. The real bugaboo is elbows. However - I designed a very easy to manufacture elbow that look descent from 5' away. Write me for the design. I'll send it out free o'charge. Tools- Mallet/Softface hammer. Something to bend the steel around. A ball peen hammer, a heavy chunk of steel to rivet upon. Materials - 16 ga steel, leather for straps and mounting points, small buckles and some solid rivets. Time - 1 hour. Cost - ~ 10.00 a pair. Gauntlets - What can I say - Everyone is right about these buggers. But the last time I checked a pair of good gauntlets costs a whole lot less than a trip to the Emergency Room for X-rays. Well - that covers everything except the throat and head. I certainly haven't spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars or required any unusual of hard to get tools. Admittedly this solution doesn't cover all nationalities or periods. But these techniques can be adapted to solve some of these problems. The best way to build this armor is using the ouch replacement plan. If you keep saying ouch - that is the part you want to build next. If you use good quality canvas, the harness will survive long enough for all the pieces to get built and you'll still have a few seasons left to enjoy it. I didn't mean to turn this into a class, but then again maybe I should. Remember, everyone is here to learn and have fun - Alexander Caithnes Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:35:25 -0500 From: rmhowe To: - Atlantia , - Regia Anglorum - North America Subject: Spun Helmet Tops in a Variety of Metals http://www.jgbraun.com/balls.html Spheres and Hemispheres in steel, stainless, Brass, and Aluminum. Thick enough for helmet tops. Just happened to see a page with these today. Came by it off of a Blacksmiths' Ring. http://rings.anvilfire.com/cgi-bin/list.pl?ringid=smithring Check out http://www.kayneandson.com/ These people have dishing and armoring tools in western North Carolina. Do NOT pass my address on to a newsgroup or SCA-Universitas list. You may clip the news out and repost it if you like. Magnus Path: be1.texas.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed2.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!p01!fed1read03.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Sean Malloy Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Approved: Approved by Bureau of Natural Disasters, Planning Division: Public Release Subject: Re: armor question Organization: Bureau of Natural Disasters, Planning Division Reply-To: srmalloy at cox.net Message-ID: <09ii40hnaca6mbimaekeopjuap1m8f5a04 at 4ax.com> References: <404520c5$0$4859$a32e20b9 at news.nntpservers.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 60 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:56:23 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.101.225.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse at cox.net X-Trace: fed1read03 1078545382 68.101.225.159 (Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:56:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:56:22 EST Xref: be1.texas.rr.com rec.org.sca:340539 "RolfN" wrote: >Two questions really.... >1) What's an armor scale worth? Specifically: >* appropriate gage stainless-steel scales >* about 2" x 4", one end rounded, no sharp corners >* pre-punched with an appropriate pattern of 6 to 8 holes >* radiused and/or fluted for strength > >What do people think pre-made scales like this would be worth each, or per >hundred? > >2) What's the likely market size for a "reasonably-priced" scale? 1k? 100 >million? > >I'm trying to figure out if it's worth getting a punch made, and if its even >theoretically possible to amortize (i.e., justify) the cost of it through >sales of scales beyond what I'm using for my own armor.... Its not in metal, but Noble Plastics sells polypropylene armor scales in two (soon to be three) types. From their website for the scales (http://plasticlamellar.com/): 'Newcastle Plates are made of polypropylene and can be heat-formed to create curves. These plates are quite durable, and are 2‰ wide x 3.375‰ long, 0.160‰ thick, weighing 1.55# per 50. An „average‰ suits weigh 7-8 pounds, and takes 250-300 plates.' 'Auk plates are made of polypropylene, and can be heat-formed to create curves. These plates are smaller than the Newcastle and easy to lace into contoured silhouettes as they can be tapered in the assembly (thus a tapered torso is feasible). The plates are 1.22‰ wide x 2.345 long, 0.075‰ thick, weighing 0.56# per 100 and may require padding. An „average‰ suits weighs about 4 pounds, and takes 600 plates.' The Newcastle plates are $19.50 per bag of 50, and are available in Black, Copper, Blue, Gold, Brown, Pewter, Burgundy, Silver, Yellow, White, Green, Red, Caramel, and Purple; the Auk plates are $22.00 per bag of 100, and are only available in Gold, Silver, Pewter, and Copper. The third style of scales, 'Effingham' plates, will be kozane for making Japanese-style armor. It's not the same material, but it gives you an idea of what a commercial production cost would be. -- Sean R. Malloy | American Non Sequitur Naval Medical Center | Society San Diego, CA 92134-5000 | srmalloy at cox.net | "We may not make sense, srmalloy at nmcsd.med.navy.mil | but we do like pizza" From: wbfountain at aol.comnospam (Wm. Bryan Fountain) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: 04 Mar 2004 02:29:07 GMT Subject: Re: armor question >Coming from this angle, the cost would be anywhere between $1.75 and $5 >(around $2500 just for scales in a full hauberk), not counting die cost. >Which is why I was looking for some demand-side numbers that were in a bit >smaller ballpark :-). Say, for example, a web-site of an armorer that sells >steel armor scales..... > >> Charly >RolfN Try GAA Armouries - here is a link to the page that lists their scales..... http://www.hammeredsteel.com/gaa/armour/gaa/body.htm Ld Brun Canutteson - resident of the Midlands - (Midrealm) Middle Kingdom Chief of Artillery MKA - Wm. Bryan Fountain Asst. Professor of Industrial Technology Sauk Valley Community College Dixon, IL From: Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace Date: September 2, 2006 11:53:21 PM CDT To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Combat archery prep (was Re:Would-becombat archers?) > Charles mentioned: > "Also, you could make them out of retired road > signs. ...snip...They're aluminum, not steel, but > the requirement is for 'rigid material', not steel. > > Another alternative is a good, thick Kydex or ABS plastic. ...snip.... > > To which Eule offers: > Yes, however, it takes just as much effort to make them out of the > appropriate material as it does to make them out of something that was > not found in our designated period. > > Eule/Steve > Unus sed Leo Salut cozyns, Plastic and aluminum have good and bad characteristics. Generally speaking, for the level of armor an archer requires, I see no real advantage in either material. Yes, in the case of aluminum, you might obtain the raw materials for free. Still, there are trade-offs worth considering. As one who went from a Wisby coat of plates (steel) and steel legs and arms to an aluminum coat of plates and finally ended up spending many years with plastic breast and back plates, plastic cuisses and greaves, and plastic arm armor, I think I have a pretty good perspective. Aluminum from street signs works fine if you want material to use as splints for your vambraces, body armor, and gorget. For the more complex pieces like knees, elbows, and even the demi-gauntlets, Master Eule's response is generous. Aluminum is wonderfully light, but it's an evil metal to work. Extremely brittle and with a crystalline structure that is easily pinned, aluminum was to be carefully heat-treated to dish it or work in complex bends. By comparison, steel is a cakewalk. Frankly, if you're going to put that much work in, you might as well just use a thinner stainless steel and temper it. ABS is incredibly easy to form, and it's lightweight. Makes great custom-fitted body plates, cuisses, greaves, vambraces, and rerebraces. It's also tends to be a bit expensive. The stuff you get for free has already been worked. Since ABS relies on layers of criss-crossed fibers to give it strength and since heating breaks down those fibers, ABS should only be hot formed once. After that, every reheating increases its fragility. There are those in the SCA who heat ABS and then dish it. This works in that you get whatever shape you want, but it also makes the material brittle. I wouldn't trust it. I also don't care for the look of dished plastic. It looks a bit too shiny and insect-like for my taste. With the price difference and the ugly appearance, the only real gain is in weight. Honestly, though, the total weight difference between a steel knee cop and an ABS knee cop is not great enough to notice when you're trying to shoot down a hundred screaming Trimarians running up the hill at you. Another option is Kydex. Bad idea. Has to be worked at a higher temperature than ABS, so you're more likely to burn yourself. More to the point, if you heat it just a few degrees too high, you get cyanide gas in your kitchen. Kydex is also more expensive. All in all, I have to agree with Master Eule. Let the good folks in the barony help you arm up in steel and leather. lo vostre per vos servir Meser Lyonel From: kcmarsh at suddenlink.net Date: June 14, 2007 11:13:50 AM CDT To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] URLs for armour and helms and other good stuff I have promised to post several URLs for people lately: Kit planning guide, intended for armour but good for planning outfits as well: http://pages.suddenlink.net/egrim/papers/armour.doc Paper on materials for making armour: http://pages.suddenlink.net/egrim/papers/Materials.doc Valsgarde helm kits from Zweihammer Armoury: http://www.zweihammer.com/catalog/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,1/category_id,1/manufacturer_id,0/ A nice SCA armour kit based around a war hat and a jack: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=63299&start=0 War hat helm listed here as a "kettle hat": http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/standard.php Digital images of Victorian-era books with original illustrations: http://www.archive.org/details/americana (Suggested reading includes Sir Nigel, Ivanhoe, Robin Hood, works of Alexandre Dumas) Maelgwyn Edited by Mark S. 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