armor-leather-msg - 2/8/08 Making leather armor. NOTE: See also the files: armor-msg, p-armor-msg, armor-plastic-msg, shields-msg, Shield-Balanc-art, gambesons-msg, coat-of-plates-msg, armor-chklst-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 15 Dec 91 17:30:06 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations Cost of armor A number of people have posted, commenting on the low cost of plastic armor relative to steel or leather. One possibility which I have not tried but which might be worth exploring is to find a free or nearly free source for small pieces of leather. My current design for lamellar leather armor uses pieces 2 inches by 3 3/8 inches, and smaller pieces could be used. Somewhere there must be leather workers, perhaps shoe repair places, generating pieces about that size as scrap and throwing them out. Of course, the leather has to be reasonably thick--12+ ounce vegetable tanned leather is ideal. What I have been using is eight ounce leather, which is available in fairly substantial pieces, apparently as scrap from making something else. One local source sells it for $3/lb. Using that, plus beeswax ($1.95/lb + postage), lamellar body protection weighs about six pounds, costs under $20, and takes perhaps nine hours to make. The result is much prettier than plastic armor, easier to move in (more flexible because it is lamellar rather than plate), but not, I suspect, as good protection. I would rate the 8 ounce hardened lamellar as minimal legal--suitable for covering places where you do not expect to get hit hard very often. The next step up, which I am currently experimenting with, is to use something stronger in the places you are most worried about. I suspect that 12 ounce lamellae will do it. They weigh half again as much and cost at least three times as much (at least twice the price per pound, since I cannot get them as scrap). But I think a klibanion that is about a quarter 12 ounce (on the sides) and three quarters 8 ounce will do the trick, and that should come to about seven pounds and $30, which is still pretty light and pretty cheap. An alternative, which I am also experimenting with, is to make some steel lamellae, and alternate steel and leather in the important areas. Incidentally, for readers not familiar with leather terminology, "8 ounce" leather means 8 ounces per square foot. Cariadoc Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Organization: University of Chicago Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 03:59:41 GMT Patrick Angus Flynn asks about waxed leather, and Magnus Moorley responds: "Making it is simple; get a big kettle, melt some parrafin, dip the leather, and bend your leather to the desired shape immediately." I would add: 1. Beeswax also works and, unlike paraffin, is period. 2. You can also do it in an oven at about 220 degrees, with the melted wax in a baking pan or something similar. 3. While you can bend leather as described, it would be very difficult to get any shape that involves stretching. My usual technique involves first soaking the leather in water for many hours, then shaping and stretching it to the desired shape, then letting it dry out on some convenient form to keep the shape, then waxing it when it is thoroughly dry. This way all the forming is being done with cool, water soaked leather, not with hot, wax soaked leather. 4. More more detailed instructions, see my article on the subject in T.I. a year or so back. David/Cariadoc Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: pmw2c at csissun10.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Organization: University of Virginia Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 04:13:49 GMT jeff_witham at mercer.COM writes: |> Patrick Angus Flynn enquireth: |> |> >>What is the opinion of the populace of waxing leather for |> >>armor? Is it necessary? Is it a good idea? If so, how do I do |> >>it? |> |> Waxed leather or Cuir bouilli is a relatively inexpensive |> (but effective and authentic) type of armor. Not only does this |> make the leather waterproof (and almost sweatproof), but it makes |> the leather much more rigid. I'm going to make some this year. |> I like it better than regular leather since the leather can |> protect you better. Making it is simple; get a big kettle, melt |> some parrafin, dip the leather, and bend your leather to the |> desired shape immediately. I've been told that this can be done |> in the kitchen. I wouldn't do it in _my_ kitchen, though. I |> think I'll go camping to do it, and make a party of the occasion. I have made Coir bouilli in my kitchen (I'm not real picky :-) and have been very pleased with the results. Cuir bouilli has the properties of being light, and fairly rigid but not too rigid. When armour is too rigid, like steel, you can get armour bites. Armour bites are much less likely with Coir bouilli. There are some things you need to be aware of though. #1 if the wax gets warm the leather gets soft again. This is more of a problem with beeswax than parafin, which has a higher melting point. #2 you can use the warming to your advantage. If your leather gets bent (which it invariably will) you can heat it and bend it back into shape, no problem! Conrad Hebenstorm From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Date: 3 Jul 93 11:38:46 GMT Organization: University of Toronto - Wax on ... wax off I had heard that a blend of beeswax (for resilience) and carnuba wax (for hardness) made for the best hardener. In my experience, the wax always had to go on hot leather, or it would just sit on the surface. If the leather is hot (only as hot as an oven or dryer) vegetable tanned stuff, it will drink the wax right in. Aryk Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ross at chem.queensu.ca (Ross Dickson) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Summary: Be sure to let it dry first! Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 18:14:49 GMT David / Cariadoc (ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu) writes: > ... first soaking the leather in water for many hours, >then shaping and stretching it to the desired shape, then letting it >dry out on some convenient form to keep the shape, then waxing it >when it is thoroughly dry. I thought I should mention that the bit about waxing it WHEN IT IS THOROUGHLY DRY is important. Gaerhun made his first set of waxed leather armour here a couple of years ago, and we discovered that one of the pieces was a rather brittle in the center, and had the appearance of a crystalline nature at the broken spot. We deduced that the center of the piece hadn't completely dried before it was waxed. Angus / Ross Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Organization: University of Toronto - Wax on, wax off... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 20:34:37 GMT Another safe way to melt wax: microwave oven. Aryk Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 16:47:00 GMT Greetings from Balderik: Here's some info I posted LOOONNNGGG time ago on making cuirboulli armour: According to Waterer (Leather Craftmanship, Leather and the Warrior, etc.), the cuir boulli effect is obtained when vegetable tanned leather is dried at elevated temperatures. It is a chemical reaction which converts the leather into something more closely resembling plastic (I forget the details). It will only occur with vegetable tanned leather (the stuff used for tooling leather). The temperature is critical: too low and no hardening occurs, too high and the leather becomes brittle. R. Reid (or was it Reed? in his book Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers) concurrs, adding that it was also achieved by briefly (!) dipping the leather in boiling water for between 20 and 120 sec. I have yet to experiment with this technique. The application of wax is not necessary, although it enhances the effect by increasing the density of the leather and limiting the softening that can occur when the leather is dampened. The wax also makes the leather tougher. I do not recall either Waterer or Reed making mention of the use of wax for cuir boulli armour, but I would have to check. I made cuir boulli arm harness' as follows: 1) cut out individual lames from leather 2) select forms on which leather will be dried : -lames were tied onto coffee cans with string (don't use tape!!!) -vambraces were tied onto newspapers which were rolled up into roughly conical shapes 3) in order to determine the optimum temperature, the scrap bits of leather were used to experiment with different oven settings (soak piece of leather in water until saturated, dry in oven, check result) 4) when the correct setting for the oven in question is determined, the individual armour components (not yet assembled) are soaked in water until saturated, and then tied firmly to their respective forms (note that if you are ambitious you can carve positive and negative molds in order to impress decorations in relief on the armour - see Waterer). 5) place forms in oven and prop door open a crack to let the moisture escape. 6) melt some parafin wax (beeswax can be used but it is expensive and will smell like honey when your armour is in the sun for a while) in a double boiler (a bowl sitting in a pot of boiling water works). 7) when the pieces are dry and hardened, remove them from the forms (careful of heat) and brush on the molten wax with a basting brush or some such implement. Pieces can be returned to the oven (placed on a cookie sheet or something similar to prevent wax dripping onto the heating element, etc.) in order to allow the wax to permiate the leather. The oven should be just hot enough to melt the wax, but NOT hot enough to burn it! EXERCISE DUE CAUTION! WAX IS FLAMMABLE! 8) When the pieces are hardened and waxed, any rivet holes needed (unless prepunched) can be drilled. Edges can be filed/sanded. Hope this helps, Balderick From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Date: 6 Jul 1993 18:02:57 GMT Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan. Aryk says (about waxed leather): >I had heard that a blend of beeswax (for resilience) and carnuba wax >(for hardness) made for the best hardener. Depending on the climate you live in and the conditions you normally fight under, you may not want to use hardeners in your wax. If the temperature is sufficiently cool, the leather impregnated with hardened wax will crack. I use a mix of 50/50 beeswax/paraffin. If I never fought in temperatures under about 50 (F), I'd increase the proportion of paraffin so the leather would be harder at higher temperatures. -- Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill From: tracker at wpi.WPI.EDU (The Renegade Ranger) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Date: 7 Jul 1993 12:14:38 GMT Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Cuir Bollei (atrocious spelling of the second word, I know, but hey, I just woke up..) is the hardening of leather through boiling. Technically. However, it is generically hardened leather, and wax-hardening is one of the primary methods. Whether or not you want to wax-harden your armor (not just wax it, which would provide a nice smooth surface and some water resistance, but you shouldn't hold out for the chance that it'll make all blows glancing due to its low surface friction...) depends on what you plan to do with the armor. Hardened leather is a) waterproof b) reasonably light and c) hard as a chunk of light metal. I've run over my leather bottle with my car. It still works fine. Ok, I have a small car, but still.. Hardened leather is _not_ flexible. It is also normally a different color than when you started. Light veg. tanned skins will turn a ruddy brown to dark brown, depending on how much wax you imbue them with, and how high a temp you cook them at. You would probably want hardened leather if you would like a rigid form of armor that weighs very little, is easily formed, and not too tough to make. You can make this armor in pieces (lamellar armor would work very well with leather plates), or in sections (a tonlet joined to a 1/4 piece of the chest garniture). Youl will be restricted in size of the pices by the size of your heat source (oven). To do it, go buy some wax. A lot. Buy some crystals while you're getting the wax. Crystals, as they're generically called in the candle shops around here, are small flakes which will make the wax harder. Melt a bunch of wax over low heat, mixing in crystals as the wax melts.. but not too many of them. Heat your oven to about 200-250F, and get out the cut-out piece of leather that you're going to harden. NOTE: The leather will shrink a little bit. How much depends on the piece itself, and how much you wax it and such. Put the leather on a sheet of aluminum foil or a big pan, and pour a good quantity of wax over the leather, trying to get even coverage. NOTE: Pour the leather on the 'wrong' side of the leather, _not_ the smooth flesh side. Let the leather sit in the oven for a few minutes (5-10) so the wax can soak through. Repeat pouring the wax. Do this until the leather looks evenly saturated, which will probably take 1-2 times for every sq.ft. of the piece. Then remove the item and allow to cool, making sure it cools in whatever shape you want it to remain in. Then, go use it. I'm sure there are other gentles with other varied and more intruiging methods, and I'd love to see their methods or thoughts posted as well.. -Tracker, always curious.. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 17:06:22 GMT Greetings from Balderik, gleason at scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason) writes: |> I've noticed that the comments always say to use vegetable tanned leather. |> Why not chrome tanned leather? What are the differences between the two |> processes? |> |> Lord Parlan MacGillivray |> -- |> Robert Gleason |> >> gleason at scf28.scf.loral.com The short answer is 'It don't work with Chrome tanned leather'. I don't know the details of the chemistry off by heart. The best source I've got, Reid's 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' gets into some of the details, but it's at home. I'll try to give a 'readers digest' version, which should be taken with a grain of salt: Basically, one of the characteristics of Chrome Tanned leather is temperature stability. Something about the way the chromium sulphate binds to the pelt fibres stabilizes them. With veg tanned leather on the other hand, something about the way the various tannins bind to the pelt fibres allows a peculiar polymerization reaction to take place above a certain temperature. The cuir bouilli is distinctly different structurally, and chemically (?) from the leather you began with, apart from any wax/hardener you may have added in the process. I've hardened vegetable tanned leather without using wax at all, and only added wax afterwards to enhance the effect by making the leather denser and more waterproof. You can bake/wax chrome tanned leather, but it won't undergo any dramatic increase in rigidity (as far as I know). Although most people don't care, chrome tanning is not period. Whether or not modern vegetable tanned leathers resemble their period equivalents is beyond my knowledge, but I believe there are some distinct differences in the production methods. Cheers, Balderik From: dloyer at zacson4.EBay.Sun.COM (Dennis Loyer) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Waxed Leather Date: 8 Jul 1993 21:45:09 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. Greetings, After reading most of the posts on this subject, including the warnings on the flamability of wax, I'm surprised I didn't have an accident this last weekend when I made my leg and arm armor out of waxed leather. For the original poster on this subject, if he's still interested, I used a recipe I found in the new edition of the Fighter's Handbook, unfortunately I do not remember who the original author is and cannot give proper credit where credit is due. If memory serves, since I don't happen to have the Handbook handy, the recipe is as follows: 1 lb parrafin 3/4 lb bee's wax 1/4 cup Neet's Foot Oil 1 teaspoon Alum (check the spice rack at your local grocery store) (I will check my handbook tonight after work and if the recipe is incorrect, or if there are any other glaringly obvious errors, I will post a follow-up to this, correcting such errors) This are the basic proportions, I had to increase it by a factor of 4 to do both upper and lowere arms, and both upper and lower legs ( upper legs ar hinged and cover front, back, inside and outside to protect my fair skin from those nasty wraps everyone likes to throw). The procedure I followed was to take one of those cheap roasting pans you find in the grocery store, place the wax in the pan, and put it in the oven at 200 degrees. once the wax has melted competely (about 1/2 and hour) I poured in the oil and the alum, and mixed completely. I then turned the oven up to about 275. Now comes the fun, and incredibly smelly part. Once the oven has come up to the correct heat, take about 8 - 9 scrap pieces of leather about an inch on a side and place them in the wax, after 5 minutes remove one piece and place on some newspaper to cool (cover the newspaper with brown wrapping paper, or old paper bags to keep the leather from picking up the print of the newspaper). remove another piece every 2 minutes after that. This will tell you how long you need to boil your leather. The Handbook's instructions said that you would probably only need to boil your leather for about 8 to 10 minutes, he must have been using a much lighter piece of leather, My leather was 14 oz. and needed to be kept in the wax for about 25 minutes total. Another thing, you may not want to dye your leather first, I started out with my leather undyed, and still it's natural color, when finished, the leather was a warm dark brown color. Another tip is to cut out your leather pieces first, however you may want to make the pieces slightly oversized by about 1/8 inch a side in case of shrinking, though I didn't seem to have much problem with this. All in all, other than the odor, it was rather easy to do, and if you're careful, doesn't leave much of a mess, and I personally am very pleased with the results. Denis d'Loyer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Ken Mondschein) Subject: Ciour Bouilli'd armor Organization: University at Buffalo Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 22:48:00 GMT I've been told that leather should be boiled in paraffin, not beeswax. It has a higher melting point, for starters. However, it *will* mess up your oven. On the other hand, it's cheap-- in period, you had to off a whale. Now, it comes from petroleum. My armor is all leather, and I love it. No problems. Tristan From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ciour Bouilli'd armor Date: 6 Oct 1993 12:55:40 GMT Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network" Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan. Tristan writes: > I've been told that leather should be boiled in paraffin, not >beeswax. It has a higher melting point, for starters. However, it *will* mess >up your oven. And if you fight outdoors in cold weather, paraffin also has a higher *cracking* point -- meaning if your leather armor gets hit while cold enough, it will crack. And "cold enough" is a warmer temperature for paraffin than beeswax. I use a mix, myself -- about half and half beeswax and paraffin. > On the other hand, it's cheap-- in period, you had to off a whale. Now, >it comes from petroleum. My armor is all leather, and I love it. No problems. I believe this statement is in error. Not the one about you loving your armor, the one about the source of paraffin... :-) I haven't got my sources here to check, but while researching candles and lighting, I got the definite impression that paraffin has always been a petroleum product, developed in the 19th century. The wax you may be thinking of is spermaceti, which is from whales. But it wasn't used (at least for candles) until sometime in the 17th century, as I recall. -- Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill From: heide861 at crow.csrv.uidaho.edu (William D. Heideman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ciour Bouilli'd armor Date: 7 Oct 1993 22:09:54 GMT Organization: University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho dennis r. sherman (sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu) wrote: : Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan. << lines about parafin, beeswax etc. deleted >> : I haven't got my sources here to check, but while researching candles : and lighting, I got the definite impression that paraffin has always : been a petroleum product, developed in the 19th century. The wax you : may be thinking of is spermaceti, which is from whales. But it wasn't a minor correction: spermaceti is a rather light OIL, not a WAX. A very significant viscosity difference there. : used (at least for candles) until sometime in the 17th century, as I : recall. : -- : Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia : Dennis R. Sherman Triangle Research Libraries Network : dennis_sherman at unc.edu Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill Interjecting a point very much off the subject, but I felt the need to make this correction -- William D. Heideman heide861 at crow.csrv.uidaho.edu From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather Armor Date: 11 Nov 1993 05:20:02 GMT Organization: Cornell Law School Johann asks about leather armor. My suggested rules of thumb: Consider the following classification of places you may be hit: A: elbows, knees, and any other equally vulnerable places. These generally have a requirement of rigid protection. B. Areas you would like well protected, because you are likely to get hit hard there with some frequency. An example would be the ribs under the arms for someone fighting bastard or two sword. C. Everywhere else. Armor is usually labelled by ounces per square foot; one ounce corresponds to 1/64". For A, I think anything less than about 12 ounce hardened leather is unsafe--although 8 oz might arguably meet the legal requirements. For B, I would recommend at least 12 ounce hardened leather, but could survive with 8 ounce. For C I would recommend 8 ounce. > I figure I can purchase shoe sole/cobblers leather, (about a 1/4" > thick, I can't find anything much thicker), doubled up in some > places (like the breast and arms) for extra protection. (Extra > padding in all the appropriate spots) Does this sound > correct/acceptable? What I usually use is vegetable tanned leather, often sold as "saddle skirting," available up to about 14 ounce. The Leather Factory, which is a chain, seems to have it at somewhat better prices than Tandy, especially during their frequent sales. 1/4" leather, the thickness you mention, would be 16 ounce. Hardened, that should do for anything short of a helm--and maybe even unhardened. On the other hand, leather that thick may be hard to shape. Doubling it seems like more protection than anyone needs. Incidentally, the breast (for a man) is not a particularly vulnerable spot, except perhaps if your fighting is mostly spear against spear. Nor, in my experience, are the arms--they can get hit, but they also move when they are hit much more than the body, which reduces the damage. Some, perhaps all, sole leather has been compressed, so that 1/4" is even heavier and harder than ordinary 16 ounce leather. > Also, regarding 'boiling' leather: Do you use water or oil? > Do you leave it for a while, cooking? You immerse it in liquid beeswax for long enough to saturate it. The easiest way is in an oven at about 230 degrees. See my T.I. article. The piece is shaped before it is hardened by soaking in water, shaping, then drying. David/Cariadoc DDF2 at Cornell.Edu From: Dan Butler-Ehle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather Armor Date: 16 Nov 1993 07:29:31 GMT Organization: CCLI, Michigan Tech University Greetings to all from Ulfin of Wyrmgeard! In article <1993Nov9.220644.26647 at accint.com> Jason R. Pascucci, jrp at accint.com writes: >Also, regarding 'boiling' leather: Do you use water or oil? >Do you leave it for a while, cooking? Water. Boiling it in oil will scorch it too much. Practice alot at different temperatures and durations until you get good results. Every piece of leather is different, so it's hard give a recipe for using this method. You want it hard like wood, but not so brittle that it will crack and break. Also, boiling in water will distort the shape and cause it to shrink a LOT. The usual material is vegetable-tanned leather. However, I believe that really thick rawhide would be ideal if you could find it. It's incredibly lightweight, but you'd have to coat it to keep it from softening when it gets wet. (I'm speaking of real rawhide, not latigo-tanned leather which is also often called "rawhide".) The common SCA method is to harden the leather by impreg- nating it with wax. There are no examples of period leather armor that have any wax in them, so it is not believed to have been a period practice. (I must admit that although I have heard this several times, I've never seen any docu- mentation on this--can anyone confirm it?) It is, however, a more practical method (at least for SCA purposes). It is also heavier, but has a few advantages over water curing: *The leather resists cracking *You can shape it while it sets *It can be reset by heating if it loses its shape *It doesn't shrink or deform from the hardening process (This also means that it will not destroy the pretty designs you tooled into the leather) Many in SCA recommend beeswax, although I find it is way too soft for hardening leather, costs a fortune, and makes the armor sticky. On the other hand, it smells wonderful. (By the way--I recommend that every medievilist keep a supply of beeswax on hand. It's wonderfully useful stuff.) Oh yeah, there is more than one kind of beeswax. Cappings wax is light colored. Cell wax can be anywhere from yellow to dark brown and is generally cheaper than cappings. It's usually available from apiaries (bee farms). Ideally, you would use a hard wax. Carnauba wax is a natural wax that's pretty hard but costs even more than beeswax. The color is pretty dark (at least the stuff I tried was). I no longer have a source for it--anyone know where to get it? What I usually use is regular old parafin and add stearene (stearic acid) to harden it. Parafin is available everywhere, although I have at times found that it's cheaper at the supermarket (it's with the canning supplies) than at the craft store. Parafin is really nice 'cuz it's colorless; this is important to me because I usually dye my leather. Stearene is with the candlemaking supplies at the craft store. The amount of hardener needed must be determined by trial; your preferences probably differ from mine. Consider where you'll be using it. If the leather can handle a swordblow without cracking on a 40 degree day, it would probably be too soft for fighting in the sun on an 85 degree day. If you want to dye your leather, use dyes that are much lighter than your desired finished color. The wax darkens the leather quite a bit, and any dark colors will come out almost black. This may not be so much of a problem if you use the watercuring method, but I've never used that method on dyed leather. The only leathers I have found to be acceptable for hardening by wax impregnation are vegetable-tanned (tooling) leathers. (Yes, I have tried chrome-tanned and oil-tanned leathers -- they just won't harden up enough.) Vegetable- tanned is the that Tandy and other leathercraft companies sell for making belts and saddles and key fobs and other things that have patterns tooled into them. You don't need the top-quality, unblemished stuff (you want it for beating on with sticks, remember?). Get some really ugly grade C if you can find it. By the way--leather costs more than steel. You should use 8-ounce leather at the very minimum; it's not cheap. I prefer 10- to 14-ounce for most parts. With a little engineering and a few well-placed rivits, you can make a rock-solid breastplate using overlapping sections of 8-ounce leather. (An "ounce" for leather isn't a measure of weight; it's a measure of thickness. One ounce equals 1/32 of an inch.) The stiffness of hardened leather seems to increase geo- metrically with the thickness. I find that no amount of hardener can stiffen 6-ounce adequately, and that hardened 10-ounce is about twice as stiff as hardened 8-ounce. If you want compound curves in your leather, you'll have to curve it before you harden it. Set it in warm water for a couple days. It should become a little bit stretchable. Pull and push and yank and curse until you get it stretched over a form. Secure it with tacks or nails (most metals will turn leather black, so put the tacks in an area you plan to cut off). Allow it to dry completely (this usually takes days). When it's done, cut it to the shape you want. Tool and dye (oops...didn't intend the pun) the pieces. I have not had any problem with the wax deforming the leather, so I put my lace and rivit holes in before I harden it. If you choose to do it afterward, you will probably need to use a drill. Melt the wax in a double boiler (wax can explode if it gets too hot). Do not allow any water in the wax pot; if the leather touches water droplets in the pot, it will shrivel up like a potato chip. For the same reason, your leather must be completely dry before hardening. If your pieces are small enough, just drop them into the wax. If not, you can paint the melted wax on with a brush and put the piece in a warm (not hot) oven; repeat this process until the piece is saturated. It usually only takes about twenty seconds for pieces in the pot to soak up the wax. If they're still sending up tiny air bubbles, leave them in a little longer. It can vary a bit with thickness and also from one leather specimen to another. Remove the piece from the wax pot or oven. Bend it into the desired shape and hold it in a bucket of cold water. It can help to have something in the water over which to form the piece. If you wish to reshape the piece, be very careful to remove all the water droplets before putting it back in the hot wax or oven. When the piece is cool, remove excess wax from the holes and polish it. If there is too much excess wax on the surface, a Scotchbrite pad or somesuch may be helpful. Assemble the armor. Keep it prettty by trying not to get hit too much (i.e. avoid taking up arms against the Middle). Gee, I didn't intend for this posting to be a treatise on the subject. Hope I didn't give away too many of the secrets I've been hoarding all these years. In service to the Dream, and enslaved to the Machine, Ulfin of Wyrmgeard Dan Butler-Ehle Canton of Mistig Waetru Kingdom of the Middle From: Dan Butler-Ehle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather Armor Date: 16 Nov 1993 07:48:45 GMT Organization: CCLI, Michigan Tech University Greetings from Ulfin-who-doesn't-always-proofread! In article <2c9vgr$j4o at mtu.edu> Dan Butler-Ehle, dwbutler at mtu.edu (me) writes: >sections of 8-ounce leather. (An "ounce" for leather isn't a >measure of weight; it's a measure of thickness. One ounce >equals 1/32 of an inch.) ^^^^ It's 1/64 of an inch. Sorry. In service to the Dream, and enslaved to the Machine, Ulfin of Wyrmgeard Dan Butler-Ehle Canton of Mistig Waetru Kingdom of the Middle From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather Armor Date: 16 Nov 1993 14:36:27 GMT Organization: Cornell Law School In article <2c9vgr$j4o at mtu.edu>, Dan Butler-Ehle wrote (about hardened leather): > However, I believe that really thick rawhide would be ideal > if you could find it. It's incredibly lightweight, but you'd > have to coat it to keep it from softening when it gets wet. Impregnating rawhide with beeswax (as in hardening leather) seems to do it. > The common SCA method is to harden the leather by impreg- > nating it with wax. There are no examples of period leather > armor that have any wax in them, so it is not believed to > have been a period practice. (I must admit that although I > have heard this several times, I've never seen any docu- > mentation on this--can anyone confirm it?) So far as I can make out, nobody really knows how period courbouilli was made. I gather from your comments that you are simply repeating what others have told you, and that you (like me) have no real evidence one way or the other. One person I know has done it by soaking leather in water, tieing it to suitable forms, then drying it slowly in an oven at a low setting. > Many in SCA recommend beeswax, although I find it is way > too soft for hardening leather, costs a fortune, and makes > the armor sticky. On the other hand, it smells wonderful. Two to three dollars a pound is a fortune? It takes about half a pound of beeswax for a pound of leather, so a klibanion requires something between ten and twenty dollars worth of wax. I have not had any problem with armor being either sticky or soft. I have been told that armor hardened with wax gets soft if you fight in very hot weather--but on the basis of my experience so far, if it is too hot for my armor it is probably too hot for me. > Consider where you'll be using it. If the leather can handle > a swordblow without cracking on a 40 degree day, it would > probably be too soft for fighting in the sun on an 85 degree > day. My (beeswax hardened) leather armor manages that temperature range with no problems. > If you want to dye your leather, use dyes that are much > lighter than your desired finished color. The wax darkens > the leather quite a bit, and any dark colors will come out > almost black. This may not be so much of a problem if you > use the watercuring method, but I've never used that method > on dyed leather. In my experience, any colors come out something between dark brown and black after hardening--is this a difference between using parafin and using beeswax? Can you get light colors with your method? > sections of 8-ounce leather. (An "ounce" for leather isn't a > measure of weight; it's a measure of thickness. One ounce > equals 1/32 of an inch.) I believe one ounce is 1/64th of an inch. -- David/Cariadoc DDF2 at Cornell.Edu From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather Armor Date: 16 Nov 1993 15:40:19 GMT Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Ulfin of Wyrmgeard posted a very comprehensive and informative missive on cuir bouilli. In an attempt to answer a couple of his questions: Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers by R.Reed (Reid?). THE most comprehensive book on leather science, tanning etc. that I've ever come across. According to Reed, the cuir bouilli effect will only occur with vegetable tanned leathers (and he give a brief description as to why, in chemical terms). He asserts that it was achieved in period by very briefly dipping the leather in boiling water. Unfortunately, it is only a passing mention, so he doesn't get into his sources. Leather and the Warrior by J.W. Waterer Waterer more or less concurs with Reed. According to Waterer, the only piece of Cuir bouilli armour that has survived is the cruper from a horse armour (this info may be dated). As I recall, he doesn't mention whether or not it is waxed. Source of Carnauba wax: Although I haven't searched for it, so I don't know if there are other sources, I have seen it in the 'Lee Valley' Tool catalogue ( a Canadian mail order/catalogue store chain that specializes in woodworking tools). They will do mailorder to the U.S. Even if you order nothing, the catalogue is great for leafing thru and fantasizing on cold lonely nights (and I'm not a woodworker). All sorts of wonderfully obscure and beautiful tools/supplies. Someone once posted a cuir bouilli recipe that only required a small percentage of carnauba (bulk was parafin or beeswax). Cheers, Balderik From: David Friedman To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 20:28:00 +0000 Subject: Hardening leather I noticed a post of yours on hardening leather, in which you quoted me describing wax hardening. That is the method I used to use, but my current opinion is that, although it works well for SCA armor and may have been used for other purposes, it was probably not how period cuirbouilli armor was made, since waxed leather cuts fairly easily. If you check my web page, you will find a preliminary discussion of my current water hardening method; a longer description is in the new edition of the Miscellany, which Alban was selling for me at war this year. David/Cariadoc Subject: Re: ANST - Info Request Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 14:16:49 MST From: LannCathal at data-garden.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG > > I have another request. I could use some information on cuirre boille > >armor (quite possible mispelled). I am recently back in after a couple > >of periods in high school and college an increasing number of years ago. > >I am trying to use the 'boiled' heavy leather to round off my armor, or > >at least until I can have some metal (a lot!) shaped into the elbows and > >knees. > > I would appreciate your help/advice/pointers. > > > > Valstarr My armor, save for the helm, is made entirely from leather. The elbows, knees and kidney belt are hardened with wax. Here is how I did it. Materials required: Wax(parafin or bee's wax) Leather(obviously) Large towel or other thick cloth aluminum foil An Iron (That thingy you use to make wrinkles in clothes go away) a cover cloth for work area Place the leather to be hardened on the cover cloth over your flat workspace. Cover the leather with a layer of aluminum foil and your cover cloth and iron it until it gets hot enough to melt wax then take your wax( I used a rather large chunk) and rub it over the heated area. When the wax stops melting, replace the foil and cloth and iron some more, then apply more wax. Continue until wax starts to seep though the other side of the leather. Once the leather is entirely impregnated with wax, iron once more to get it soft, then form it to shape and insert rivets or other hardware to connect it all. I was able to make two knees, two elbows and a rather large and overly thick kidney belt in about four hours. I precut the leather to shape, but waited til after waxing to cut holes for rivets. I would be happy to answer any further questions about this as well as hear alternatives as I am preparing to make myself a new set of all leather armor (save for the helm). Lann Cathal, House WolfStar, Barony of Elfsea, Kingdom of Ansteorra Subject: [medieval-leather] Cour Boulli Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 10:04:20 -0800 From: Bob & Tricia Le Pine To: medieval-leather at egroups.com Here Is another point of view for all of you desiring to craft hardened leather armor. This has been used / play tested now for over 14 years or so in the Kingdom of An Tir. First cut out all your patterns in such weight leather that you deem suitable, (I use sole leather or saddle skirting.) then drill what stitch holes you need and bevel the edges of the cut out pieces. Then soak your leather pieces in water hot enough to be just able to put your hands in for seconds with out burning yourself (Approx. 110 to 120 degrees 'F') or use BBQ tongs to fish them out like I do. Let the leather soak till all of it's thickness is saturated ( wet all the way through ) Stitch any seams ( I tend to " abutt ' the edges of the Seam line then stitch a ' cover plate ' of leather over the stitched seam which adds strength and can be decorative if you cut out the cover plate in various shapes. ) then form the wet leather to the shape that is desired...... then let it completely dry ! ! ! NOTE: Add the wet cover plate to a completely dry main piece and drill out the stitch holes in the cover plate only at first. Place the cover plate at one end of the dry seam it will cover then drill several holes into the dry piece using the existing cover plate stitch holes as a guide. Once the one end is locked down with a stitch or two then shape / mold the plate to the shape of the dry piece, drill several more holes then stitch them. this cycle continues until the whole thing is sewn down. This method allows for accurate stitching together of two complex shapes with little fuss or bother. Let the wet cover plate completely dry before waxing. Trying to wax wet leather can cause micro 'steam' explosions that spray hot wax all over. Having liquid bee's wax on the skin is uncomfortable enough but having it in your eyes is a big 'not to be desired'. Please be careful with the hot wax. Now drying can be done two ways. One in a warm (not hot) oven set to about 150 degrees, or air dried at room temperature. I strongly recommend the air drying method personally as I have seen too many pieces shrivel up or become so brittle from the heat that they are useless. This is a waste of hours of labor ( I'm lazy :-} ) is extremely frustrating, and is very costly in cash as this weight of leather is expensive. The soaking in water leeches out much of the oils that make the leather flexible and the air dried piece will be quite hard. To wax this I use the following method: 1: Melt a small pot of plain bee's wax( I use an old percolator coffee pot with a self heating electrical element that has a variable rheostat (A dial to adjust the temp. in the pot. ) to hold my wax. This is great as it's ready to go in minutes and I can control the heat so as to keep the wax at a liquid temp. without having to worry about overheating it to it's ' flash ' point where it will cause a fire. .......Whatever method you use to melt bee's wax please be careful of this fire danger!!.... 2: Using a natural bristle brush ( Nylon or plastic bristles melt in hot wax :-} ) paint your air dried piece in this order. Edges first, then the back/inside/flesh side and last the front or face of the piece. This is done so that when you lay the piece down, on layered newspaper, to do another piece any grit or dust will adhere to the back side of the waxed leather leaving a pristine face. Oh yes be aware that the waxed piece will look ugly as the hot wax hits the cool leather it congeals and is lumpy and horrible looking........ this is normal and will disappear with the next stage of the process. By the way any carving or tooling is done after the air drying process and also any dyeing. The wax will penetrate LN dyes and only coat COVA or acrylic paints but will still provide the waterproofing that is desired 3: Next I use a ' paint stripper ' gun held about 4 to 6 inches from the leather to heat the leather which opens the pores as well as liquify the wax which is then drawn into the open pores and creates a thin but all encasing coat of bee's wax about the piece. Be very careful not to over heat the leather or it will fry and shrivel. Excess wax is 'blotted' off the leather with crumpled paper towel (more 'thin edge' surfaces to absorb the wax ) and then the gun is applied again until the surface of the leather appears dry. 4: This is the stage where holes are punched / drilled and strapping and buckles can be installed. Do not wax the straps as they want to be flexible. Tandy style 'two part' rivets are only used to attach the buckle into the buckle strap. all other strap or plate attachments are done with copper 'belt / harness' rivets As a suit of armor in the middle ages was called a 'harness' these rivets seem appropriate. NOTE; I have found 5/8 th inch buckles and straps work best in the suits I build. Make the straps of 6 to 8 oz. leather for that weight / thickness seems to work the best and needs the least replacement. Use 'cast' 5/8 th roller buckles even though they are more expensive as they last longer and break / bend less. The above is, of course, only one persons opinion but it is one that has worked for many years. I hope that it is of some help / use to the folk on this list. Do feel free to pass it around to who ever can use it. I happily grant permission for its use. The more folk in armor on the field the more tar... I mean the more friends we have to play with. :-} Yours for safe combat, Aaron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aaron of the Black Mountains, An avowed member of the *Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem* From: Fiora Soranzo and Mahir al'Asuad Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mediaeval Things to Do with Old Oil? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 04:02:12 GMT On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:19:55 GMT, "finndo" wrote: >Wow you learn something new every day... > >Pretty Cool > >> So far as I can tell, the idea that leather was hardened by heating in >> oil is a myth. Cuirboulli seems to have been made using water, which is >> usually available at low cost. >> -- >> David/Cariadoc >> www.daviddfriedman.com http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm A link I was given on how to make boiled leather. I found it quite interesting, and I thought maybe you would too. :) Fiora Edited by Mark S. Harris armor-leather-msg