trim-msg - 2/6/08
Medieval and SCA trim for clothing.
NOTE: See also the files: applique-msg, beadwork-msg, cross-stitch-msg, emb-blackwork-msg, looms-msg, weaving-msg, sewing-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: holsten at golden.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Garb Question
Date: 4 Jun 1993 22:25:29 GMT
Organization: U.C. College of Natural Resources
This is in answer to the question about metallic thread.
Having just vacationed in England and of course having visited all of
the museums I had time for, I can say with absolute certainty that
metallic threads *are* period. I saw numerous examples of metallic
thread used in embriodery in religious as well as royal coronation
robes. I also saw gold metallic thread used in a card woven strip taken
from the Sutton Hoo. The strip was about 2" wide, brown, with a
geometric metallic thread pattern. (And, no, I'm not even going to
*try* to draw it in ASCII.)
According to one of the books I picked up while I was there, (if
anyone's interested, I can check on the name at home) the
metallic thread used in the middle ages was very thin metal (gold will
beat into an unbelievably thin sheet) wrapped around a spun linen core.
The people who made this thread were paid very well, as were the
embroiders who used it. In other words, don't use metallic thread
unless you're making an outfit that would have been worn by a *very*
rich person. (Like a Bishop or Prince).
Joanna
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Garb Question
Date: 4 Jun 1993 23:31:27 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Greetings from Fiacha,
As another poster commented, gold brocaded trim is at least as old as the
Sutton Hoo ship burial. Using metallic trim was popular throughout the
middles ages and the rennaisance.
There were a variety of ways of inserting metals into both weaving and
embroidery. While gold wrapped thread was ruinously expensive in early
period and not much cheaper in late period, disposable income improved
considerably.
You should have no qualms about using such trims for rennaisance costumes.
It is also worth remembering that the finest costumes we in the SCA use are
intended as court attire. At most courts it was expected that one would
display the signs of wealth, both real and imagined. Again, metallic trim
and metallic enhanced embriodery, is utterly appropriate for costumes to
be worn on such occaisions. Putting metallics on a tunic for slumming around
camp would simply pointless and wasteful and so not done.
Regards
Fiacha
From: habura at vccnw11.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Garb Question
Date: 7 Jun 1993 11:55:09 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Heavy Metal: Mary Otto asks if using metallic threads in embroidery is non-
period.
As far as the woven trim goes, I'll have to give you an "I dunno", but I
seem to recall Mistress Thora documenting metallic threads used in tablet
weaving.
For embroidery, the answer is "it is very period, but mostly for embroidery
done before 1400 in the English style". I have been doing work lately on
a style of embroidery known as opus Anglicanum, which had its heyday between
about 1200 and 1400; it was considered the hottest stuff in Europe at the
time. Most surviving examples are ecclesiastic, but this is probably a
byproduct of two things: the ecclesiastical vestments were likely better cared
for, and the secular stuff, if it fell out of fashion (and opus A. seemed
to become very passe' in the 15th c.), would very likely have been burned to
extract its precious metals. We do know, however, that this style of
embroidery was used for nonreligious items in Period; some examples survive,
and inventories of goods belonging to wealthy individuals list pieces as
well. There's also an interesting piece of legislation from the time of
Edward III of England that restricts the use of embroidery on clothing; gold
is specifically mentioned.
Was gold thread used after 1400? Yes, but not nearly as often, and not in
such huge quantities, as far as I can tell.
Anyone interested in further info on this embroidery style is more than welcome
to email me; I'll talk your ear off.
Alison MacDermot
Needle jock
From: priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Metallic Thread (was: Help with Garb Question)
Date: 7 Jun 93 10:17:23 +1000
Organization: Vikings R Us
Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!
Ah, the Sutton Hoo textiles, the thread that wouldn't die.... Joanna
(holsten at golden.berkeley.edu) writes:
>Having just vacationed in England and of course having visited all of
>the museums I had time for, I can say with absolute certainty that
>metallic threads *are* period. I saw numerous examples of metallic
>thread used in embriodery in religious as well as royal coronation
robes.
>I also saw gold metallic thread used in a card woven strip taken
>from the Sutton Hoo. The strip was about 2" wide, brown, with a
>geometric metallic thread pattern. (And, no, I'm not even going to
>*try* to draw it in ASCII.)
I wonder if you are thinking not of the Sutton Hoo textiles but of the
brocades from the Taplow Barrow man's grave from Buckinghamshire, which is
roughly contemporary with the Sutton Hoo [ship-grave/cenotaph/choose one]?
These are a series of tablet-woven strips brocaded with flat gold ribbons in
various widths and geometric patterns. To my knowledge no Sutton Hoo textile
was worked with either silk or metallic threads.
>According to one of the books I picked up while I was there, (if
>anyone's interested, I can check on the name at home) the
>metallic thread used in the middle ages was very thin metal (gold will
>beat into an unbelievably thin sheet) wrapped around a spun linen core.
The use of gold metallic thread for textile ornamentation goes back at least as
far as Macedonian Greece (it has been found in the "royal" tomb at Vergina,
often alleged to be the tomb of Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great's
father). In early Anglo-Saxon brocaded textiles, the gold threads that were
used were not "spun gold," but were flat ribbons (i.e., not wound around a
core). The Byzantines were using spun gold thread in the same period, however.
Later on, spun gold became the medium of choice for not just metal-enhanced
weaving but also all those exquisite Anglo-Saxon embroideries. Meanwhile,
finds from the ninth and tenth centuries in Sweden reveal the use of fine gold
wire as a brocading material.
Gold was often spun around silk, linen, and even horsehair in period, with silk
being the preferred medium due to its suppleness. However, for weaving uses,
particularly in middle or late period, often gold was applied to strips of
animal membrane.
With respect to metallic threads, I'd like to thank Fiacha for being brave
enough to point out the most important fact of all:
>Putting metallics on a tunic for slumming around
>camp would simply pointless and wasteful and so not done.
Anyone wishing sources, please e-mail me.
From: holsten at golden.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Metallic Thread (was: Help with Garb Question)
Date: 7 Jun 1993 16:28:09 GMT
Organization: U.C. College of Natural Resources
In article <1993Jun7.101723.728 at vaxsar.vassar.edu> priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) writes:
>Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!
>
>Joanna wrote:
>>I also saw gold metallic thread used in a card woven strip taken
>>from the Sutton Hoo.
>I wonder if you are thinking not of the Sutton Hoo textiles but of the
>brocades from the Taplow Barrow man's grave from Buckinghamshire, which is
>roughly contemporary with the Sutton Hoo [ship-grave/cenotaph/choose one]?
>These are a series of tablet-woven strips brocaded with flat gold ribbons in
>various widths and geometric patterns. To my knowledge no Sutton Hoo textile
>was worked with either silk or metallic threads.
>
The piece that I saw was in the Sutton Hoo display in the British
Museum. I was actually disappointed at the display--I had been
expecting rooms full of stuff, but there were only a couple not very
full display cases.
>With respect to metallic threads, I'd like to thank Fiacha for being brave
>enough to point out the most important fact of all:
>
>>Putting metallics on a tunic for slumming around
>>camp would simply pointless and wasteful and so not done.
>
Right. That's the point that I was trying to make when I said that
metallic threads should be used only on *good* clothes that would have
been worn by rich people. (I wasn't trying to say that you had to *be*
a Prince or something to use metallic threads--only that the *clothes*
should be nice enough for someone of "Importance"--i.e., not "camp
slumming" clothes.)
Joanna
From: priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Metallic Threads (was: Help with Garb)
Date: 8 Jun 93 01:03:20 GMT
Organization: Vikings R Us
Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto from Thora Sharptooth, greeting!
I have missed several days' worth of Rialto in the past week or two.
Consequently, I do not have much of an idea about the context of the
metallic-thread conversation. That's why I have responded to it the way I
have.
Joanna (holsten at golden.berkeley.edu) writes in response to my earlier posting:
TH>>I wonder if you are thinking not of the Sutton Hoo textiles but of the
TH>>brocades from the Taplow Barrow man's grave from Buckinghamshire, which is
TH>>roughly contemporary with the Sutton Hoo [ship-grave/cenotaph/choose one]?
TH>>These are a series of tablet-woven strips brocaded with flat gold ribbons in
TH>>various widths and geometric patterns. To my knowledge no Sutton Hoo textile
TH>>was worked with either silk or metallic threads.
>>
J>The piece that I saw was in the Sutton Hoo display in the British
J>Museum. I was actually disappointed at the display--I had been
J>expecting rooms full of stuff, but there were only a couple not very
J>full display cases.
The British Museum series of publications on the Sutton Hoo cenotaph finds has
a long and elaborate chapter on textiles which does not mention a single scrap
of gold brocading, much less any piece of tablet-weaving 2" wide. The article
"Early Anglo-Saxon Gold Braids," by Elisabeth Crowfoot and Sonia Chadwick
Hawkes (MEDIEVAL ARCHAEOLOGY 11 [1967], 42-86), lists an extensive catalogue of
95 finds of gold-brocaded tablet-weaving, but never mentions Sutton Hoo. It
does, however, have this to say:
"When Mrs. [Grace] Crowfoot examined the fragments of gold strip from
the rich barrow-burial at Taplow in Buckinghamshire (no. 1), which include the
only two pieces [of Anglo-Saxon gold brocading] with any identifiable textile
surviving, she found that here, too, the fabric was a tablet-woven braid
decorated with surface-brocading in gold (PL. IX, A-C). These pieces both came
from a single wide braid, but from some other gold strips with no textile
adhering, but showing marks and folds from the weave, it proved possible to
reconstruct the brocaded pattern of a second and narrower band from this
important grave (FIG. 12, no. 2). Mrs. Crowfoot was thus enabled to weave the
reproductions of the two braids now on show in the British Museum (PL. IX, D)."
With respect to the gold-brocaded tablet-woven piece presently on display at
the BM, is there any way to check on its provenance? I am wondering if Mrs.
Crowfoot's reproduction(s) might still be on display. Gold-brocaded
tablet-weaving is one of my specialties, as is early period tablet-weaving
generally. If there are new finds of gold-brocaded tablet-weaving from Sutton
Hoo, I really-really-really want to know about them!!!
J>metallic threads should be used only on *good* clothes that would have
J>been worn by rich people. (I wasn't trying to say that you had to *be*
J>a Prince or something to use metallic threads--only that the *clothes*
J>should be nice enough for someone of "Importance"--i.e., not "camp
J>slumming" clothes.)
Quite right; I missed your making this earlier point.
**************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY Frosted Hills ("where's that?")
priest at vassar.edu East Kingdom
Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
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From: WALTER at tandem.PHysics.upenn.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gold Thread
Date: 8 Jun 1993 16:37:46 -0400
Organization: The Internet
Greetings to the gentles of the Rialto!
Couched gold thread in embroidery is also seen after 1400. One
technique which I particularly admire is "or nue" (accent over the e) a
very rich technique in which the entire piece is worked in couched gold.
Thin spun gold threads are couched with colored silk, and the pattern
is produced through the color and density of the couching thread. Such
pieces can be extremely detailed, but the entire piece also shimmers
with gold. Also, as late as the 16th century, the dress in which
Eleanora of Toledo was buried is richly decorated with bands of
couched gold work.
By late period, much metal thread used in textiles was silver
gilt (silver covered with a thin layer of gold), epsecially for large
projects (tapestry weaving for instance -- all those murky dark areas are
silver gilt thread, and the silver has tarnished). Metal threads were
also used for bobbin lace in the 16th c.
DMC makes a flat "spun gold" thread - not real gold, but flat metal
around a fiber core - and many catalogs offer "Jap" gold, which is a
round spun gold thread (you _can_ get real Jap gold, but the price...).
Try to use embroidery techniques in which you couch the metal threads
(i.e., sew them to the surface of the fabric using another thread,
preferably of waxed silk for strength), as spun gold is not stable
enough to survive constant pulling in and out of fabric. E-mail
me for catalog sources if you need them. Good luck!
Sincerely,
Karen/Richenda
Shire of Hartshorn-dale, East
walter at tandem.physics.upenn.edu
From: habura at vccnw12.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gold Thread
Date: 9 Jun 1993 16:19:13 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
On gold thread on garb: I certainly agree that goldwork embroidery continued
throughout our period. The interesting thing about techniques like or nue' is
that I haven't been able to find a record of these techniques being used
much in secular embroidery. Ecclesiastical and other formal, absolutely
(the best or nue' I've seen is from the vestments belonging to the Order
of the Golden Fleece). Secular goldwork seems to be more along the lines of
laid cord and similar effects after about 1450. (Someone was kind enough to
give me a pointer to some Titian portraits that use gold trim; I shall have
to check them out).
If anyone has evidence in this area, I would love to hear it. My area of
specialization is 14th century, but my lord and I have recently discovered
that 15th century garb suits him very well. I'd like the embroidery to match
the garb chronologically. Anyone happen to know what was used as embroidered
ornamentation on houppelandes?
Alison MacDermot
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Subject: Re: Help with Garb Question
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1993 21:46:04 GMT
Greetings!
On the subject of metallic thread, add "16th century" to the time
periods where it is seen. Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_
has some nice examples.
The way the thread was made was thus: a very long thin strip
of hammered-out metal (gold, sometimes silver) was wond around a core of
fibre, usually silk. Interestingly enough, you can still find modern
metallic embroidery stuff made the same way....
I've seen documentation for metallic thread all the way back
to the seventh cenentury. Now if only people worried as much
about what kind of decorative motifs were used in each period as they seem
to about the metallic thread question!!:-)
Regards
Nicolaa
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
Susan Carroll-Clark
From: dave.calafrancesco at drakkar.mhv.net (David Calafrancesco)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Painted trim
Date: 20 Apr 96 11:36:58
Organization: Druid's Grove FIDO -> Internet Gateway
fyoder at mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU wrote in a message to All:
{Conmhara wonders about early period clothing... snip}
fm> I've tried tablet woven trim, but till I get myself a loom
fm> that can handle longer lentgths, I've put that on hold. Or is
fm> trim even period for extreme northwest Europe of that time?
fm> Perhaps trim then was more of a simple colored band? Hmmm...
From what I have seen, simple edge trim was done for several hundred years
during the period you are looking at. I can't speak specifically re: irish celt
as I tend more towards Viking/Rus. According to several tablet weaving books
(Collingwood comes to mind) many edges were 'sealed' using 4-12 cards making a
band a few millimeters wide. I have seen others doing a technique that added
closed trim in basic colors with a threaded in pattern (if any pattern at all).
Essentially you make a warp as long as necessary, you coil the unused portion
and suspend the rest between two points. Another poster mentioned about clamps
on a table. I have used a 5' board with two posts coming up from it as well as
a modern "Inkle" loom. I prefer the inkle for belts and off the fabric weaving
as it holds my tension better and allows me to have a much straighter and more
regular edges. I also find it faster and easier to transport.
Back to the trim part, what I have seen is you thread a simple 4-12 card
pattern, run the weft thread via a needle and do a loop weave (ie every weft
shot starts from the same side making a 'tube') through the shed and then
thread the weft through the fabric edge. Then rotate the pack (simple rotations
(all forward or all backwords with the pattern often being the S and Z
threading and a mono-chrome warp). Back into the same end of the shed as the
first weft shot and back down through the fabric and keep repeating.
The beauty of this seems to be that if you run out of warp you can attach new
warp in an inconspiciuos spot and continue. Same thing goes for the weft so you
don't need a lot of that running around. Periodically do a reversal (I
recommend every few inches) to keep the warp end from getting all twisted up.
When you get the end, you use needle and some extra warp length to pull the