pattens-chpns-msg - 3/6/09 Medieval pattens and chopines. Pattens - wooden cutouts in the shapeof the shoe s sole, which were strapped on over the lighter, slipper-like shoes worn indoors. Chopines - Open backed shoes with tall wooden soles. NOTE: See also the files: shoes-msg, p-shoes-msg, shoemaking-msg, leather-msg, hose-msg, headgear-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, boots-msg, 2Shod-a-Shire-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Heels not period? Pft! Date: 24 Dec 1994 03:52:05 GMT Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS Greetings! Now, I don't know much about heels. But I do know about pattens and chopines. The former are wooden cutouts in the shape of the shoe s sole, which were strapped on over the lighter, slipper-like shoes worn indoors. The latter look a lot like traditional clogs or mules--open backed. Except that the sole was made of wood (carved out to decrease the weight) and was TALL! The ones I've seen in the Bata shoe museum are about 8 or 10 inches high; there are apparently records of this type of shoe being up to 18 inches high, such that the ladies who wore them had to be supported on both sides while walking! Pattens date back at least to the 13th or 14th century, maybe even earlier. Chopines came into fashion in the late 15th century and reached their extremes in 16th century Italy. If you'd like more info, the local expert in chopines is Madinia, a fine costumer and a Mistress of the Laurel. E-mail me and I'll get you in touch. Cheers! Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Period Footwear! Organization: The Boeing Company Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 22:13:02 GMT mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes: > Some medieval people had bad feet. Medieval people wore shoes. Is it > reasonable to believe that they had _no_ solution to the problem of > making comfortable shoes for people with bad feet? >It may be true that they did not; but that strikes me, in my ignorance, as >unlikely. It sounds like the same sort of claim as the one about using >spices to cover the taste of spoiled meat. Just because we have a modern >solution to a problem does not mean that our ancestors didn't have a >_different_ solution to the problem. In the book 'Shoes and Pattens', describing footwear found in London when excavating for modern buildings, a fair percentage of feet were deformed as determined by wear patterns in the shoes. Whether the deformities came first, or whether bad shoes caused them is not known to me. One thing to note, though, is that the 'shoe' would be the equivalent of a house slipper. The 'patten', made of multiple layers of leather or pieces of wood fastened with leather, was worn over the shoe when going outdoors. I have yet to notice an SCA person wearing such a combination (perhaps someone else has), and they would offer more opportunity for foo support than a single layer of leather does. Daniel of Raven's Nest Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:31:06 -0400 From: STIS Data Analyst To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA-ARTS digest 837 Ras wrote: > .... These shoes were not worn by themselves. I am surprised that the > shoemaker didn't instruct you on how they would have been worn. > Whenever I look for period type shoes at Pennsic each year > I always look to see if > patens are also available at the merchant or if they have a sign up > warning purchasers about the need to acquire wooden patens. Actually, this is not entirely true. Pattens were not necessarily worn with all turnshoes. Even in the 14th century when pattens were most common in Europe, not everyone wore them all the time. And there is not evidence for pattens in every time and place that turnshoes were worn. I wear my various styles of turnshoes without pattens and have only worn through parts of the stitching on my oldest pair. Your shoes shouldn't be falling apart like that so quickly if they are made correctly. It sounds as though the stitches must be visible on the bottom of the sole, in which case, they aren't made correctly. I would glue or stitch on a second sole. It is a period solution (the stitching anyway, though you can't tell once it is done), it is easy, and it'll give you more protection from rocks anyway. Vitale wrote: > On the topic of pattens. I have worn them, but find they are > clumsy to get about in. > > I was wondering. Where leather soled pattens ever used? > Easy to make and slip on and they protect the shoes. I recall seeing a patten made of multiple stacked layers of leather sewn together for the sole, with the usual straps. It was probably in "Shoes and Pattens". It looked very 1970's! Bronach Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:38:09 EDT From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Shoemaking question Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz writes: << On the topic of pattens. I have worn them, but find they are clumsy to get about in. I was wondering. Where leather soled pattens ever used? Easy to make and slip on and they protect the shoes. sort of like leather Dr.Scholl sandles. Vitale >> Yes, I seem to recall pictures of at least one from the Shoes and Pattens book. Pretty much what you might expect--stacks of leather sewn along the edges, with strategically placed straps, the ends of which were sewn between the layers. Best I can remember the straps seemed a bit skimpy to me, certainly not as secure as I'd prefer (Low across the toe, perhaps a back strap that didn't fasten at all? But I might well be confusing them with another photo, too.). I'll try to go look the picture(s) up soon, if no none beats me to it............ :-) Ldy Diana Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:52:49 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Shoemaking question <<< The solution would be to wear wooden patens as was done during the middle ages. These shoes were not worn by themselves. I am surprised that the shoemaker didn't instruct you on how they would have been worn. >>> Only later on, I do 13th C and strictly speaking there were only few pattens, (ie they were just coming in) but I tend to wear mine in the winter, rain or mud from place to place but not in sun or indoors. I've yet to have a seam go, the leather wears out prior to that so I can't offer anything. However is the seam going under when you walk ie getting wear from the ground ? Are these turn shoes ? How do your normal shoes wear, look at the wear patterns & see if they are similar or is the leather too thick ? Mel Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:52:47 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Pattens <<< Where leather soled pattens ever used? Easy to make and slip on and they protect the shoes. >>> There are some that are leather stitched together to make a thick block, but I've not heard of leather soled wooden ones ! However I read somewhere the leather ones might be nearer sandals than pattens Mel From: Zebee Johnstone Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: pattens Date: 23 May 2007 05:41:02 GMT As Rowany Festival is moving to a new, probably wet, site I am interested in making pattens. There seems to be two types - the kind with a heel strap and a hinge under the toes, and the kind with just a strap over the forefoot. Anyone have any ideas of the pros and cons of these? Is one definitely easier to wear than the other? My instinct is that the more complex one will stay on better and cope with more energetic movements, and the simpler one is cheaper to make so possibly more common. Silfren From: Par Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: pattens Date: 26 May 2007 05:25:02 GMT Zebee Johnstone : > There seems to be two types - the kind with a heel strap and a hinge > under the toes, and the kind with just a strap over the forefoot. > > Anyone have any ideas of the pros and cons of these? Is one > definitely easier to wear than the other? I've never used either kind myself, but I'm told that people here in Scandinavia that grew up wearing clogs with solid wood bottoms and leather tops have no serious problems with the latter type. I never wore them enough to get the hang of it, but there is definitely a trick to walking (or running) with clogs See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clog_(shoe), the one that was very common when I was young (1970's) was the type shown as "Modern 'Swedish' clog". /UlfR goes barefoot in the wet, which is also period From: Gillian de Chelseye Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Inexpensive Pattens Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:31:32 -0700 (PDT) > Does anyone know where I could obtain (whether in person or online) a > pair of wooden or leather pattens in size 10 and a half for under $45 > US? Lady Oren has them as low as 48 bucks, but she also does custom work too, so if you email her, she could probably do them for 45, but that doesn't include shipping. http://www.ladyorensmedievalshoes.com/Patten-Soles.html If you're in west Michigan, I know for a fact that there are wood- carvers and wood workers in your area. If not, I know of many in the Barony of Northwoods, in Lansing and surrounding areas. Try your local group again. I'll guarantee that they have at least one person who can help you draft a pattern, cut it out, and tack on the leather for pattens. Or make them for you for trade or a cheaper price if you sweep the wood shop floor or something. I've never made a pair myself, but they are supposedly surprisingly easy to make. You can also try the Yahoo! group "medievalshoemaking". They have all sorts of past discussions on pattens. They may be able to direct your search as well. You can also email me off list if you would like to be put in touch with some people in this area that may be able to help you. Gillian de Chelseye Deputy Chronicler, Canton of Ealdnordwuda http://adventuresingarb.blogspot.com http://flemishgarb.blogspot.com http://downwithwench.blogspot.com Edited by Mark S.Harris pattens-chpns-msg Page 6 of 6