pants-msg - 7/1/18

Period pants, pantaloons, breeches.

NOTE: See also the files: pants-trews-lnks, hose-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, patterns-msg, clothing-books-msg, cl-Elzabethan-msg, costuming-lnks, knit-stockngs-msg, QD-Trunk-Hose-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Ciorstan Macamhlaidh 
To: Brian "Seannach in
Date: 07-Aug-90 05:19pm
Subject: Re: New Name

"trews" is another word, Scots Gaelic for the most part, for "trousers' or
"pants".  Most trews are skin tight, tartan and perhaps out-of-period since
the wearing of a bias-cut garment was limited to the rich or extremely
status-conscious...
 
Mary Black has this wonderful book, called "New Key to Weaving" that explains
a lot of the rationale for color choices and setts for tartans (pre-1800's and
the charlatan brothers who "classified and identified all true clan setts"): 
she's a MacPherson and so goes into great detail only into that particular
clan, but is still of great interest.  
 
ciorstan


From: cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Open mouth insert foot, echo nationally
Date: 23 Sep 1993 09:14:41 -0500
Organization: University of Houston

gray at cs.umass.edu writes:
>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 1993 00:26:34 -0500, Wulfric.Strongbow at f73.n309.z1.fidonet.org (Wulfric Strongbow) said:
>
>W> 2. trues(pants) are period.
>
>Are pants' pockets?

Janet Arnold in Patterns of Fashion, 16th century has several examples of
garments from the 16th century with pockets. Most of them are hidden in the
side seams, but the paned slops worn by Don Garcia, a pair of venitians,
and all of the pluderhosen have pockets, done in several different styles.

None, however, have the pockets like we know and love so well in today's
pants. For instance, one set has the pockets built in to one of the puffy
parts of the slops. All of them were designed so that the pockets would not
show.

All information from Mistress Cassandra, by the way. I know next to nothing
on the subject.

Etienne d'Yverdon - I don't make clothes I just wear them.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A Garb Question
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 26 May 95 13:07:15 EDT

ulfstein at aol.com (Ulfstein) writes:

> Does any one know if knee breeches circa the late 1590's had button fronts
> or were they all closed by a draw string?
> 
> Ulfstein
	Respected friend:
	the surviving examples vary by rank and country, and include
drawstrings, buttons, lacing, tied strings, and (one) buckle-like object.
If you can be more specific, I'll find matching cites (if available).

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)


From: connect at aol.com (CONNECT)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A Garb Question
Date: 26 May 1995 16:31:26 -0400

Ulfstein asks:
>>>Does any one know if knee breeches circa the late 1590's had button
fronts or were they all closed by a draw string?<<<

Good Sir,

What exactly are you asking? Are you asking about breeches, slops (also
called trunkhose) or venetians? Which closure are you refering to? The
waist or at the knee?

I don't know of any pants for middle-to-upper classe folks that closed
with a drawstring. Perhaps lower class pants did. I don't know, since
that's not my particular area of interest.  I don't recall any patterns in
Janet Arnold's book that take a drawstring, and the same for the Winters &
Savoy book on Elizabethan garb. (I can get the names and ISBN #s if you
need 'em.)

The breeches I made my husband close at the waist with hooks and eyes. The
same for the venetians, but they tie at the knee with ribbon. The
trunkhose and breeches are short and don't need to be closed. They have
the fabric of the 
legs gathered into the seambinding a bit lower than mid-thigh.

So, I don't know if I've answered your question, and hope I've been some
help.

Yours in Service,
Rosalyn MacGregor of Glen Orchy
Pattie Rayl of Cynnabar

*        Patricia Snyder-Rayl        *  (313) 973-8825
*          CONNECT Magazine          *  (800) GET-CONNECT
*Covering Commercial Online Services,*  (313) 973-0411 fax
*   the Internet, and BBS Networks   *  (313) 973-9137 BBS


From: liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: 21 Mar 1996 19:11:52 GMT
Organization: UCLA

(Charles R. Olszewski) says:
>Does any soul out there know of a source for either
>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons)
>or for a pattern for same?

Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion," volume I.  Any of the Sturtevant
brothers' pants would do; they all have big poufy legs and tight
little butts.  Fair warning:  I made a pair (6 yards of
fabric in each leg!) and broke 11 needles on an industrial machine
because I was pressed for time and decided to forego all that itty-bitty
cartridge pleating.  If I had it to do over again, I'd take the time.

Good luck!

-- Alexis
<liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu>


From: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:58:43 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Keywords: garb Pluderhosen

Charles R. Olszewski <olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>Does any soul out there know of a source for either
>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons)
>or for a pattern for same?

For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts.  They should have
a line that says "lengthen/shorten here".  Lengthen the pattern to just
above your knee--or wherever you want it to stop.  Use this pattern for
the lining (the part that is right next to your leg, that no one sees.)

Now, take this lengthened pattern, cut a line from top to bottom.  (The
line should be offset from the center by a couple of inches--just about
where the front belt buckles are on a pair of jeans.)  Sprrrrread the
pattern, so that you basically add width without messing up the crotch
seams.  Use this pattern for the "outer lining".  (The part that is
between the lining and the slashed fabric--the colorful stuff that is
pulled through the slashes.)  The outer lining fabric will be gathered
into the waistband.  If it's not "puffy" enough, you can either
widen/lengthen or put stuffing (I use quilt batting) between the lining
and outer lining.

Now, take the first pattern again (the lengthened-but-not-widened one),
add about 2-3 inches of length (for "bag factor") and cut it into strips
about 2-3 inches wide.  To each of these strips, add a seam allowance on
both vertical sides.  (So a 2" X 10" strip will become a 3" X 10" strip,
with a 1/2" seam allowance on each side.)  Use this pattern for the 
outer fabric--the part that is slashed.  Cut each piece out of the 
outer fabric and a "backside" fabric.  Sew one outer to one backside, 
like a tube, and turn.  Sew these pieces into the waistband/legbands 
"in position"--like they were before they were cut into strips.

Alternately, for the "outer fabric", you can use the same pattern as you
used for the lining (plus 2-3 inches), and then manually put in
slashes--rather than cutting it into strips.  But if you have
a fabric that frays, you'll have to live with the frays, or fix the
edges somehow.

Lastly, cut three strips of fabric about 2-3 inches wide.  One strip
will be as long as your waist measurement plus about two inches.  Two
strips will be as long as your leg measurement plus about 1-1/2 inches. 
These will be your waistband/legbands, used like bias strips--the three
layers of fabric are put into them.

Then, of course, you'll need a codpiece.  The easiest way to make a
codpiece is to cut two elongated triangles, sew together and turn,
stuff, sew the bottom point to the crotch area, sew one of the upper
corners to one side of the "fly", and then put either a hook & eye or
lacing hole on the other side.

You can use the same method to make "pumpkin pants" or any other male
upper-hose, just by varying the length, amount of "outer lining", and
stuffing you put in between the lining and outer lining.

I hope this made sense--if any part isn't quite clear, I'll be happy to
try to elucidate.

Joanna


From: liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: 22 Mar 1996 02:16:39 GMT
Organization: UCLA

In article <4ismv3$7cq at agate.berkeley.edu>, holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) says:
>
>In article <4irnit$p4u at gandalf.rutgers.edu>,
>Charles R. Olszewski <olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>>Does any soul out there know of a source for either
>>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons)
>>or for a pattern for same?
>
>For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts.

[snip of description of method]

Joanna has provided what looks like a novel and inventive way of
constructing generic slops.  I would like to point out, however, that
all period representations I have ever seen of Landsknechten and Germanic
noblemen wearing actual Pluderhosen depict a different type of garment,
built on a base that looks much like a pair of knee-length bicycle pants
and having a very snug and carefully fit butt that looks as if it were
tailored exactly to the wearer.

Pluderhosen are also a bit more constructed in the "pouf" part of the
leg (i.e., the bits where the lining is pulled through the slop panes
and droops a bit).  The Pluderhosen that Anderson dissected in 
"Patterns of Fashion" had poufs that were actually gathered and tailored
so that the poufs would stay put.

I have seen Landsknechten at the SoCal RenFaire who wore slops of the
type Joanna describes, and they had a most dreadful time keeping the
lining evenly poufed through the slop panes; it always seemed to migrate
to one side and the entire lining would fall through a single slash.
I am interested to know how Joanna (or anyone else, for that matter)
deals with this problem.

-- Alexis


From: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: 22 Mar 1996 23:34:25 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

(I sent this once, but I think I hit the wrong button; if it shows up
twice, I 'pologize.)

In article <4it2i7$1c7a at saba.info.ucla.edu>,
Lori Iversen <liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu> wrote:

>>For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts.

>all period representations I have ever seen of Landsknechten and Germanic
>noblemen wearing actual Pluderhosen depict a different type of garment,
>built on a base that looks much like a pair of knee-length bicycle pants

'Kay.  So change that to "start with a pattern for bicycle pants."  ;-) 

>I have seen Landsknechten at the SoCal RenFaire who wore slops of the
>type Joanna describes, and they had a most dreadful time keeping the
>lining evenly poufed through the slop panes...

Hmmm.  Well, the pairs I've made for my Lord-husband don't seem to have
that problem.  I adjust the poufs at the beginning of the day, and no
more than once or twice during the day.  Maybe it has to do with the
amount of fabric actually used in the "outer lining"?  Maybe if you use
enough fabric, gravity just keeps things in the right place?  But it
would certainly be easy enough to tack the poufs to the lining or outer
fabric, if they tend to migrate.  I wonder how the "real" pluderhosen
looked, though--from what I understand, the "outer lining" was just
fabric stuffed in, and not sewn at all.

I realize that my method isn't necessarily historically accurate.  But 
*I* happen to find it incredibly easy, and, by adjusting the length/width
of the panes/slashes/lining/etc., you can end up with something that looks
pretty darned close to the portraits.  (And I've *never* been able to
make any of the patterns from Janet Arnold actually work.  I know that
many people have, but I also know that many people *haven't*.)

Joanna


From: C.P.Ontis <75057.1341 at CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: 22 Mar 1996 15:19:14 GMT
Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736)

The Stuier suit in janet aronold ofr the father will fit a man 
about 5"10" 180 lbs Doin't believe any one that tells you this 
pattern dosen't work that is "pure bull"
this project is not for the faint of heart but it dose work I 
have made about 5 pairs , the outer fabric needs to be very stiff 
and springy strongly recoment line with horse hair canvas,the 
weird hour glass piece in the crotch is an absolute nessicity do 
not try to omit it .also slightly pad the butt as it will give 
alot neater look.
-- 
Carl Ontis


From: pastor at typhoon.coedu.usf.edu (Robert W. Pastor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 15:16:14 GMT
Organization: Gulf Middle School

liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) wrote:

>In article <4irnit$p4u at gandalf.rutgers.edu>, olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu (Charles R. Olszewski) says:
>>
>>Does any soul out there know of a source for either
>>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons)
>>or for a pattern for same?

Easy to Make Costumes for Stage and School by Julia Tompkins.
Published by Plays, Inc Boston
loc # TT507.T63
ISBN # 0-8238-0205-1

This book has exactly what your looking for.

Rhobert of Countrywood


From: barongiles at aol.com (BaronGiles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:17:23 -0000
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Further info on the Simplicity Patterns

>I am having a hard time dressing my
>lord properly.  He  mostly wears only T-tunics

Use a T tunic, get a big T shirt lengthen the arms to the wrist, the body to
just above the knees, a front slit so he can get his head in and make in
wool

>and (UGH) jogging pants.   I
>cannot seem to find a pattern for period mens pants,  and I am unable to
>draft one that fits properly.

Take the jogging pants he likes, tuck on leg into the other, fold down the
side of the leg, cut 2 on the fold in wool, sew, add drawstring at waist.

This is a simple works for most periods (pre 15th C) mens costume pretty OK
for peasantry, of course of you want to get more accurant the trousers can
be done more period style or go for hose. But it sounds like he might prefer
the comfort simple approach to start with.

Mel


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:36:11 -0700
From: Mary Hysong <ladymari at cybertrails.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Further info on the Simplicity Patterns

> Also most of the patterns mentioned are women's garb,  does anyone know of
> any for men of the same time period?  I am having a hard time dressing my
> lord properly.  He  mostly wears only T-tunics and (UGH) jogging pants.   I
> cannot seem to find a pattern for period mens pants,  and I am unable to
> draft one that fits properly.

Sorta depends on time/ place, I mean some were wearing two different
colored legs, tied to their belt, without a crotch seam, just let their
undies show.

Another way is documented in Ireland. wrap a piece of fabric round the
waist, seam it together along one side. It should be long enough to
provide a full baggy seat when done.  Wrap more fabric around the leg,
on the bias and seam together at the back of the leg, then sew them to
the seat piece to form the crotch seam. Period examples seem to be made
of fabric about 22-24 inches wide, so usually at least two strips are
needed for each leg, the selvedges wrapping diagonally around the leg.
This construction also tends to leave a ^ shape at the top of the thigh,
one leg of the ^ being a selvedge edge and the other being a raw edge at
this point.  With wide modern fabric you could just construct a tube,
again on the bias, wide enough to accomadate the thigh at the top, slip
it on and pin up the back seam to match the shape of the leg.  A small
flap is left to cover the top of the foot and is held in place by a
strap running under the instep.  Some examples have checked or plaid
legs and plain seats. The top is fastened with a drawstring. The
Dungiven trews, now in the Ulster Museum in Belfast are cut and shaped a
little differently, especially in the seat. I'm currently working out
the pattern for them.

Mairi, ATenveldt


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:25:31 -0600
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Further info on the Simplicity Patterns

> Take the jogging pants he likes, tuck on leg into the other, 
> fold down the side of the leg, cut 2 on the fold in wool, sew, add 
> drawstring at waist.

and if wearer has heavy thighs or prefers less binding, add a
triangular gusset in the crotch area ... my mundane climbing pants
are made this way and i really enjoy them for sports or motorcycle
riding (less binding).  the design would make a great pair of
fighting field pants ... down the way, want to make a pair of leather
drawstrings made this way for my riding kit

'wolf  


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:30:53 -0600
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: clothing myth ....

> [mailto:owner-sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu]On Behalf Of
> LrdRas at aol.com  
> 
> I would suspect that the reason for this is that men (or at 
> least nobility)did not wear pants until after 1650 CE.

myth ... "pants" were common and documented as early as
celtic/germanic le-tene period europe (iron age). you'll find they
are common to the horse cultures, european and oriental as a
practical thing.   not to mention that they are almost manditory in
any cold climate.

'wolf


Subject: Re: Period Pants
Date: 13 Apr 1998 12:35:34 GMT

Tommaso asked
>Does anyone have patterns/pics/examples of period style pants?

If you are interested in Rennaissance clothing, you cannot do better than Janet
Arnold's book _Patterns_Of_Fashion_.  She has studied surviving garments, drawn
them as they would have appeared when new, analyzed the fabric, decoration, and
construction techniques, and laid out patterns on an enlargeable grid.

In particular response to your question, Miss Arnold has information on
breeches, trunkhose (paned and plain) and plunderhosen.

Although adjustments (obviously) have to be made to the pattern to fit the new
wearer (one size does not fit all!) it is well worth the time.

Giles
Gyldenholt, Caid


From: Chris Zakes [moondrgn at austin.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:49 PM
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Patterns

>Does anyone have patterns that I could borrow? I mainly need a basic pants
>pattern at this time. Early Renniasaince would be good.

Take a look at: http://home.austin.rr.com/moondragon/QDtrunk.html

	-Tivar Moondragon


To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fabric?
Posted by: "Robert Bohler" robler2 at sympatico.ca robertbhlr
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:16 am ((PDT))

Pluderhosen are basically GIANT pants with big billowy folds of fabric in the legs, a formed codpiece and a wierd tailored "monkey butt".


To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: pants
Posted by: "Robert Bohler" robler2 at sympatico.ca
Date: Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:30 pm ((PDT))

Janet Arnold had some excellent examples of pluderhosen in her book about 1560-1620 fashion styles


To: scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: snoods
Posted by: "D'vorah bint al-Attar" dvorah at consensualreality.net dvorah.batadar
Date: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:05 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Sues_Deals <sues_deals at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< I am also definitely interested in a person where women wearing pants was
acceptable. Can someone point me in the right direction on where to go
looking for such?

Sue Ellen >>>

Mongolian, Persian, Indian, Arabian peninsula... All these, during period, had at least the option of wearing a pair of trousers called in various areas a salwar, salvar, shalvar, shalwar, or sirwal. These trousers were straight-legged in the Arabian peninsula, according to my sewing teacher Lady Verena Entenwirth, and taper-legged in the other areas if I'm not mistaken. The trousers were worn under a tunic of mid-calf length or longer called, variously, a kamis, khameez, qamis, and so on. Modern Indian women also wear a salwar kameez, but the cut is slightly different now from what it was in period. Period construction was all, or mostly, straight lines -- it wasted less fabric that way.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
D'vorah bint al-Attar
Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
dvorah at consensualreality.net
http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND 
Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar


From: Rebecca Beaumont <beaumont_rebecca at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Fabric Question: Linen for Pants
Date: September 4, 2012 9:11:50 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

I've used both weights for pants when making pants for Killian.  The IL019 (5.3oz) for general pants, and the 4C22 (7.1oz) for his fighting pants, although he has a tendency to wear what ever pair is on top weather he's fighting or not.

I haven't used the Linen/Cotton either, and probably won't.  The Linen/Cottons that I have found don't breath as well as the straight linen, and the IS003 (4.3oz) is lighter than the IL019, and the IS035 (7.4oz) is heaver than the 4C22.

However one of the good things about fabrics-store.com is that you can order free samples of any of their fabrics (up to 5 at a time).  If you aren't in a time crunchi would order samples of the linen/cotton to judge for yourself. 

Rebecca
___________________________
HL Rebecca Beaumont, C.C.C.
Shire of Oakheart
Kingdom of Calontir
beaumont_rebecca at yahoo.com


From: Eowyth þa Siðend <Eowyth at GMAIL.COM>
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:38 AM
Subject: [CALONTIR] Fabric Question: Linen for Pants

What weight linen would you recommend for pants, based on the weights available at Fabrics-store.com?

4C22 seems like it might be too heavy, but IL019 seems too light (for pants). These are the only 2 that I've ever used.

I would also be open to the Linen/Cotton (IS003 or IS035) - but since I've never used it, I don't know how it looks or feels. This isn't for me, so if this seems like it would be better, I'm totally open to using it for this certain wearer.

Note: I'm only interested in the weights available at Fabrics-store.com, as I've had good service & good quality and don't feel the need to switch suppliers at this point. There are also not many options for in-town purchases (for Linen) and I don't have the time running around trying to see if they have the color I want in the weight that I need. :)

Thanks for the advice!

In Service,

Eowyth


From the fb "SCA Garb"group:

Matt Richards
8/10/15
Does anyone have a decent pattern for Thorsberg trousers? Everything in Google image search for "Thorsberg trousers pattern" is either a tiny photo or something somebody drew by hand. With such a complex construction, it'd be nice to have a pattern with some general measurements to start from.

Hanna Schempf 
Have you looked at Hilde Thunem's page? The image is small, but gridded, and the text includes measurements. http://urd.priv.no/viking/bukser.html

Bránn Mac Finnchad http://www.hurstwic.org/.../how_to/thorsbjerg_trousers.pdf Hurstwic’s page is fairly user friendly—it tells you what measurements go where. However, I personally would not tailor the leg when cutting, and just do so after trying them on the first time.

http://www.shelaghlewins.com/.../thorsbjerg_trews... Discusses the actual extant pair. It does show a simplified version of the original pattern.

http://historiclife.com/Essays/ThorsbergTrousers.htm Nicely simplified diagram of what bits go where, and the order they should be sewn in.

http://urd.priv.no/viking/bukser.html Excellent article on different “Viking” Trousers, including a write up on the Thorsjbergs.

You want the distance of the front rise to go to around the base of the buttocks (the seat panel will take over from there). The front “J” should taper to the general vicinity of the knee. When you sew up the final inseam, start at the bottom and line up the cuff—the seat panel may end up too tall, but this is better than the other option.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	pants-msg	Page 2 of 12