þÿpants-msg - 8/30/04 Period pants, pantaloons, breeches. NOTE: See also the files: pants-trews-lnks, hose-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, patterns-msg, clothing-books-msg, cl-Elzabethan-msg, costuming-lnks, knit-stockngs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Ciorstan Macamhlaidh To: Brian "Seannach in 07-Aug-90 05:19pm Subject: Re: New Name "trews" is another word, Scots Gaelic for the most part, for "trousers' or "pants". Most trews are skin tight, tartan and perhaps out-of-period since the wearing of a bias-cut garment was limited to the rich or extremely status-conscious... Mary Black has this wonderful book, called "New Key to Weaving" that explains a lot of the rationale for color choices and setts for tartans (pre-1800's and the charlatan brothers who "classified and identified all true clan setts"): she's a MacPherson and so goes into great detail only into that particular clan, but is still of great interest. ciorstan From: cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Open mouth insert foot, echo nationally Date: 23 Sep 1993 09:14:41 -0500 Organization: University of Houston In article <GRAY.93Sep23075931 at ibis.cs.umass.edu> gray at cs.umass.edu writes: >>>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 1993 00:26:34 -0500, Wulfric.Strongbow at f73.n309.z1.fidonet.org (Wulfric Strongbow) said: > >W> 2. trues(pants) are period. > >Are pants' pockets? Janet Arnold in Patterns of Fashion, 16th century has several examples of garments from the 16th century with pockets. Most of them are hidden in the side seams, but the paned slops worn by Don Garcia, a pair of venitians, and all of the pluderhosen have pockets, done in several different styles. None, however, have the pockets like we know and love so well in today's pants. For instance, one set has the pockets built in to one of the puffy parts of the slops. All of them were designed so that the pockets would not show. All information from Mistress Cassandra, by the way. I know next to nothing on the subject. Etienne d'Yverdon - I don't make clothes I just wear them. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: A Garb Question From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Fri, 26 May 95 13:07:15 EDT ulfstein at aol.com (Ulfstein) writes: > Does any one know if knee breeches circa the late 1590's had button fronts > or were they all closed by a draw string? > > Ulfstein Respected friend: the surviving examples vary by rank and country, and include drawstrings, buttons, lacing, tied strings, and (one) buckle-like object. If you can be more specific, I'll find matching cites (if available). Yours in service to the Society- (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Una Wicca (That Pict) From: connect at aol.com (CONNECT) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: A Garb Question Date: 26 May 1995 16:31:26 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Ulfstein asks: >>>Does any one know if knee breeches circa the late 1590's had button fronts or were they all closed by a draw string?<<< Good Sir, What exactly are you asking? Are you asking about breeches, slops (also called trunkhose) or venetians? Which closure are you refering to? The waist or at the knee? I don't know of any pants for middle-to-upper classe folks that closed with a drawstring. Perhaps lower class pants did. I don't know, since that's not my particular area of interest. I don't recall any patterns in Janet Arnold's book that take a drawstring, and the same for the Winters & Savoy book on Elizabethan garb. (I can get the names and ISBN #s if you need 'em.) The breeches I made my husband close at the waist with hooks and eyes. The same for the venetians, but they tie at the knee with ribbon. The trunkhose and breeches are short and don't need to be closed. They have the fabric of the legs gathered into the seambinding a bit lower than mid-thigh. So, I don't know if I've answered your question, and hope I've been some help. Yours in Service, Rosalyn MacGregor of Glen Orchy Pattie Rayl of Cynnabar * Patricia Snyder-Rayl * (313) 973-8825 * CONNECT Magazine * (800) GET-CONNECT *Covering Commercial Online Services,* (313) 973-0411 fax * the Internet, and BBS Networks * (313) 973-9137 BBS From: liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: 21 Mar 1996 19:11:52 GMT Organization: UCLA (Charles R. Olszewski) says: >Does any soul out there know of a source for either >Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons) >or for a pattern for same? Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion," volume I. Any of the Sturtevant brothers' pants would do; they all have big poufy legs and tight little butts. Fair warning: I made a pair (6 yards of fabric in each leg!) and broke 11 needles on an industrial machine because I was pressed for time and decided to forego all that itty-bitty cartridge pleating. If I had it to do over again, I'd take the time. Good luck! -- Alexis <liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu> From: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:58:43 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Keywords: garb Pluderhosen Charles R. Olszewski <olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote: >Does any soul out there know of a source for either >Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons) >or for a pattern for same? For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts. They should have a line that says "lengthen/shorten here". Lengthen the pattern to just above your knee--or wherever you want it to stop. Use this pattern for the lining (the part that is right next to your leg, that no one sees.) Now, take this lengthened pattern, cut a line from top to bottom. (The line should be offset from the center by a couple of inches--just about where the front belt buckles are on a pair of jeans.) Sprrrrread the pattern, so that you basically add width without messing up the crotch seams. Use this pattern for the "outer lining". (The part that is between the lining and the slashed fabric--the colorful stuff that is pulled through the slashes.) The outer lining fabric will be gathered into the waistband. If it's not "puffy" enough, you can either widen/lengthen or put stuffing (I use quilt batting) between the lining and outer lining. Now, take the first pattern again (the lengthened-but-not-widened one), add about 2-3 inches of length (for "bag factor") and cut it into strips about 2-3 inches wide. To each of these strips, add a seam allowance on both vertical sides. (So a 2" X 10" strip will become a 3" X 10" strip, with a 1/2" seam allowance on each side.) Use this pattern for the outer fabric--the part that is slashed. Cut each piece out of the outer fabric and a "backside" fabric. Sew one outer to one backside, like a tube, and turn. Sew these pieces into the waistband/legbands "in position"--like they were before they were cut into strips. Alternately, for the "outer fabric", you can use the same pattern as you used for the lining (plus 2-3 inches), and then manually put in slashes--rather than cutting it into strips. But if you have a fabric that frays, you'll have to live with the frays, or fix the edges somehow. Lastly, cut three strips of fabric about 2-3 inches wide. One strip will be as long as your waist measurement plus about two inches. Two strips will be as long as your leg measurement plus about 1-1/2 inches. These will be your waistband/legbands, used like bias strips--the three layers of fabric are put into them. Then, of course, you'll need a codpiece. The easiest way to make a codpiece is to cut two elongated triangles, sew together and turn, stuff, sew the bottom point to the crotch area, sew one of the upper corners to one side of the "fly", and then put either a hook & eye or lacing hole on the other side. You can use the same method to make "pumpkin pants" or any other male upper-hose, just by varying the length, amount of "outer lining", and stuffing you put in between the lining and outer lining. I hope this made sense--if any part isn't quite clear, I'll be happy to try to elucidate. Joanna From: liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: 22 Mar 1996 02:16:39 GMT Organization: UCLA In article <4ismv3$7cq at agate.berkeley.edu>, holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) says: > >In article <4irnit$p4u at gandalf.rutgers.edu>, >Charles R. Olszewski <olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote: >>Does any soul out there know of a source for either >>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons) >>or for a pattern for same? > >For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts. [snip of description of method] Joanna has provided what looks like a novel and inventive way of constructing generic slops. I would like to point out, however, that all period representations I have ever seen of Landsknechten and Germanic noblemen wearing actual Pluderhosen depict a different type of garment, built on a base that looks much like a pair of knee-length bicycle pants and having a very snug and carefully fit butt that looks as if it were tailored exactly to the wearer. Pluderhosen are also a bit more constructed in the "pouf" part of the leg (i.e., the bits where the lining is pulled through the slop panes and droops a bit). The Pluderhosen that Anderson dissected in "Patterns of Fashion" had poufs that were actually gathered and tailored so that the poufs would stay put. I have seen Landsknechten at the SoCal RenFaire who wore slops of the type Joanna describes, and they had a most dreadful time keeping the lining evenly poufed through the slop panes; it always seemed to migrate to one side and the entire lining would fall through a single slash. I am interested to know how Joanna (or anyone else, for that matter) deals with this problem. -- Alexis From: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: 22 Mar 1996 23:34:25 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley (I sent this once, but I think I hit the wrong button; if it shows up twice, I 'pologize.) In article <4it2i7$1c7a at saba.info.ucla.edu>, Lori Iversen <liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu> wrote: >>For a pattern, start with a pattern for boxer shorts. >all period representations I have ever seen of Landsknechten and Germanic >noblemen wearing actual Pluderhosen depict a different type of garment, >built on a base that looks much like a pair of knee-length bicycle pants 'Kay. So change that to "start with a pattern for bicycle pants." ;-) >I have seen Landsknechten at the SoCal RenFaire who wore slops of the >type Joanna describes, and they had a most dreadful time keeping the >lining evenly poufed through the slop panes... Hmmm. Well, the pairs I've made for my Lord-husband don't seem to have that problem. I adjust the poufs at the beginning of the day, and no more than once or twice during the day. Maybe it has to do with the amount of fabric actually used in the "outer lining"? Maybe if you use enough fabric, gravity just keeps things in the right place? But it would certainly be easy enough to tack the poufs to the lining or outer fabric, if they tend to migrate. I wonder how the "real" pluderhosen looked, though--from what I understand, the "outer lining" was just fabric stuffed in, and not sewn at all. I realize that my method isn't necessarily historically accurate. But *I* happen to find it incredibly easy, and, by adjusting the length/width of the panes/slashes/lining/etc., you can end up with something that looks pretty darned close to the portraits. (And I've *never* been able to make any of the patterns from Janet Arnold actually work. I know that many people have, but I also know that many people *haven't*.) Joanna From: C.P.Ontis <75057.1341 at CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: 22 Mar 1996 15:19:14 GMT Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736) The Stuier suit in janet aronold ofr the father will fit a man about 5"10" 180 lbs Doin't believe any one that tells you this pattern dosen't work that is "pure bull" this project is not for the faint of heart but it dose work I have made about 5 pairs , the outer fabric needs to be very stiff and springy strongly recoment line with horse hair canvas,the weird hour glass piece in the crotch is an absolute nessicity do not try to omit it .also slightly pad the butt as it will give alot neater look. -- Carl Ontis From: pastor at typhoon.coedu.usf.edu (Robert W. Pastor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pluderhosen sought Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 15:16:14 GMT Organization: Gulf Middle School liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) wrote: >In article <4irnit$p4u at gandalf.rutgers.edu>, olszewsk at gandalf.rutgers.edu (Charles R. Olszewski) says: >> >>Does any soul out there know of a source for either >>Pluderhosen (baggy Landsknecht slashed pantaloons) >>or for a pattern for same? Easy to Make Costumes for Stage and School by Julia Tompkins. Published by Plays, Inc Boston loc # TT507.T63 ISBN # 0-8238-0205-1 This book has exactly what your looking for. Rhobert of Countrywood From: barongiles at aol.com (BaronGiles) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Pants Date: 13 Apr 1998 12:35:34 GMT Tommaso asked >Does anyone have patterns/pics/examples of period style pants? If you are interested in Rennaissance clothing, you cannot do better than Janet Arnold's book _Patterns_Of_Fashion_. She has studied surviving garments, drawn them as they would have appeared when new, analyzed the fabric, decoration, and construction techniques, and laid out patterns on an enlargeable grid. In particular response to your question, Miss Arnold has information on breeches, trunkhose (paned and plain) and plunderhosen. Although adjustments (obviously) have to be made to the pattern to fit the new wearer (one size does not fit all!) it is well worth the time. Giles Gyldenholt, Caid From: Chris Zakes [moondrgn at austin.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:49 PM To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Patterns At 12:02 PM 8/14/02 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have patterns that I could borrow? I mainly need a basic pants >pattern at this time. Early Renniasaince would be good. Take a look at: http://home.austin.rr.com/moondragon/QDtrunk.html -Tivar Moondragon <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris pants-msg Page 8 of 8