cl-Tudor-msg - 5/25/13
Clothing of Tudor England.
NOTE: See also the files: Tudor-Shirts-art, cl-Elzabethan-msg, cl-Ireland-msg, cl-Anglo-Saxn-msg, cl-Scotland-msg, codpieces-msg, corsets-msg, Elzabethn-Gwn-art, QD-Trunk-Hose-art.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: alysounj at gmail.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Tudor Patterns
Date: December 12, 2011 8:50:19 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Jacquelle d'Artois <shahalosiris at gmail.com>
wrote:
<<< Does anyone have any good websites or resources for creating a tudor
pattern? I have been looking around online, but can't find anything
solid in regards to how everything would be assembled. I have browsed
through the Floreligium, but was hoping for something that may have
some pictures.
Ella >>>
books! Real paper books!
"The Tudor Tailor," and Patterns of Fashion 3 &4" ..while the PoF
books are actually more Elizabethan, they are still very very good
sources, and PoF 4 starts ca. 1540, so you are still looking at
Tudor-era there.
Alysoun,
in the midst of researching Tudor stuffs herself
From: rebathehub at gmail.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Tudor Patterns
Date: December 13, 2011 8:27:30 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
I agree with Alysoun, the commentary in the good old fashioned books, is invaluable. While a picture is worth a thousand words, sometimes you need two thousand words. Below I'm going to share two nice sites with great pictures, but the commentary in many of these staple books (list below) are filled with excellent information.
Patterns of Fashions series by Janet Arnold
The book of costume by Millia Davenport
20,000 Years of Fashion The History of Costume and Personal Adornment by Francois Boucher
And I just got Norris's "Tudor Costume and Fashion" which is a Dover Book. I'm reading up on Tudor myself--Anyone know how good a resource this is?
As for the excellent online sites:
http://www.gogmsite.net/ is the main link, but for Tudor era, Try this one: http://www.gogmsite.net/grand_ladies_of_the_farthin.html (And I love the Spanish section too!)
For those who enjoy Late period. Fantastic pitures with how I did it Blogs.
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/
Lady Rebecca the Goldenhaired
mka Rebecca Hubbard Crumb
From: countessdulcia at gmail.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Tudor Patterns
Date: December 14, 2011 7:35:22 AM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
<<< And I just got Norris's "Tudor Costume and Fashion" which is a Dover Book. I'm reading up on Tudor myself--Anyone know how good a resource this is? >>>
You need to be very careful with all of Herbert Norris' costume books. In spite of the modern publication dates in the front of the books and listed on websites like Amazon.com, Herbert Norris was a late 19th and early 20th century costume designer who died in 1950. He designed historically inspired theater costumes and stage sets for plays, films, and pageants. He worked in an era when archaeologists simply were not interested in clothing remains and deposits.
Unless the clothing remains were both expensive and mostly preserved, textiles found in archaeological digs were boxed up for looking at later (which rarely happened) or simply disposed of. The 1959 excavation of the so called "Queen Arnegunde" grave by archaeologists Michel Fleury and Albert France-Lanord marked and important turning point in the treatment of textile remains because it was one of the first excavations where the archaeologists did make some attempts to study the textiles and draw some conclusions from them. Of course, since this kind of study was in its infancy and they weren't really focusing on the textiles, a lot of the conclusions they drew (and published) have later been found to be partially (and sometimes fully) incorrect. They also boxed up the textiles "for further study". The cardboard boxes full of completely decayed and destroyed textile samples were found in a pile in Michel Fleury's non-climate controlled office after his death in 2002. The boxes hadn't been opened since they were stacked 40+ years before. New textile experts have been trying to glean more information from the scraps, but that's a different discussion. =)
Back to Norris... His work was for the theatre and movies and his goal was to produce outfits that people of the time visually identified with the period in mind, but also found attractive in to their modern sensibilities. If you think about what that means, the most obvious thing is that all figures are redrawn to the ideal figures of the time. Think about Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra, or any other actress then or now. They are more interested in being attractive and "sexy" than they are in really looking like they live in whatever period of history, and it shows in the costuming.
He was also working for theatre construction techniques - how to replicate a look quickly and easily, NOT how it was actually done in period. In general his diagrams are not only wasteful of fabric, they rarely really work to create a truly comfortable, long wearing, and properly fitting garment. He also doesn't give enough pattern diagrams to help most beginners, and non-beginners should be beyond what he provides. Many times I have found his observations and suppositions about things to be not just incomplete but just plain wrong. Then again, he wasn't worried about getting it "right", just how to make it look close enough.
He doesn't provide any photographs of original works of art - everything is redrawn (which makes it secondary and tertiary sources at best), and if you put his re-drawings next to the originals you'll find that he not only changed the proportions of the figures (so that all the women look like they are wearing a Victorian or early 20th century corset and all the men are thin with broad shoulders and narrow waists!), but he changes many elements of the costumes and accessories as well. He claims to base everything he says on period evidence, but he rarely provides the sources for that evidence. He is also notorious for taking a few pieces of evidence that support his pet theories, ignoring other evidence, and drawing elaborate conclusions. He is not clear about when and where his evidence stops and his suppositions begin though, so you have be careful. I've heard it said that you just have to know where he is correct and then avoid using all the parts where he's not. In my opinion, if you already know enough to know when he's correct and when he's not, you don't need his books, and if you don't know that much, you sure aren't gonna' figure it out by reading Norris.
On the other hand, Norris does have his uses. I own the three books that apply to the SCA timeline (Ancient, Medieval, and Tudor). I find that they are most useful when used as a tool for narrowing down when a particular fashion appeared, or for helping new people choose a period, by flipping through all the pictures. On the other hand, I have a number of other books that are also really only useful for that as well (Racinet, Holkeboer, Hill & Bucknell, Braun & Schneider, etc... there are a lot of them!). What makes Norris more useful in that sense is that he spends time on the transitions from one fashion high point to the next, whereas most of the gloss sources only hit the fashion high points. You can find the general period of something (as long as it's English, French or occasionally German or Spanish) and then know which of the better sources to look in, or the timeline of art you need to look at.
So... glean what you can from it, but check EVERYTHING against good sources.
Just my opinions based on my experience,
Dulcia
From: Dulcia MacPherson <countessdulcia at gmail.com>
Date: December 15, 2011 7:45:58 AM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Tudor Patterns
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Sara Grace <ladytartan at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Mistress Dulcia,
Thank you kindly for posting your advice regarding said book. I was also perusing for good Late Period books to futher my education and application of Elizabethan and Tudor. I was only confident in asking family to buy me the 2 Janet Arnold pattern books that cover that English late period as I have been told numerous times she is (was) the "expert" on clothing construction concerning these eras...
However, I wondered how legit of a source is a book such as Liza Picard's Elizabeth's Lond - Everyday Life in Elizabethan London? I purposely picked it because I could get a sampling via online reader and noticed the table of contents covered food, money, housing construction, how their homes were decorated, home gardens, class distinction to colloquiolisms. Items I find most books ignore. Maybe there's just not that much research into those things? or interest? But I feel it would further develop my persona as I try to cultivate it towards late period... I also picked it because it was relatively cheap and it's my first book on said items for said era.
Thanks for your input!
Sara Grace >>>
Sara Grace
I don't have that particular book, but I did a little research and it has some very nice reviews, so it looks like a good way to get started on your research. You'll find that there is a TON of research available on life and lifestyles in various periods, but you won't find any of that in the usual "history" books because those are nearly always straight history (or about court intrigues).
I can't begin to go through all the books that are out there, but I can give you the list of what I currently have in my library. That will give you a list of titles and authors to look for.
Alcega, Juan de, Tailor's Pattern Book 1589
Arnold, Janet , Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women c.1560-1620
Arnold, Janet , Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd
Arnold, Janet , A Handbook of Costume
Ashelford, Jane, Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I
Ashelford, Jane, The Art of Dress
Ashelford, Jane, The Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century
Brownfoot, Andrew, High Fashion in Shakespeare's Time
Cunnington, C. Willett, Handbook of English Costume in the Sixteenth Century
Cunnington, C. Willett, The History of Underclothes
Dupont_Aubaerville, M., Full-color Historic Textile Designs
fischbach, Friedrich, Historical Textile Patterns in Full Color
Hart, Avril, Historical Fashion in Detail: the 17th and 18th Centuries
Harvey, Anthony, The Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey
Hearn, Karen, Dynasties: Painting in Tudor and Jacobean England 1530-1630
Howard, Maurice, The Tudor Image
Hunnisent, Jean, Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women’s Dress 1500-1800
Macleod, Catherine, Tudor Portraits: In the National Portrait Gallersy Collection
Mikhaila, Ninya, Tudor Tailor: Reconstructing Sixteenth-Century Dress
Scarisbrick, Diana, Tudor and Jacobean Jewellery
Vincent, Susan, Dressing the Elite: Clothes in Early Modern England
Vinciolo, Federico, Renaissance Patterns for Lace, Embroidery and Needlepoint
Waugh, Norah, Corsets and Crinolines
I've also heard that Maggie Secara's A Compendium of Common Knowledge, 1558-1603 is very good too.
As far as researching Tudor and Elizabethan costuming go, I'll do the same thing. This is the list of what I currently have in my library specifically on the topic:
Alcega, Juan de, Tailor's Pattern Book 1589
Arnold, Janet , Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women c.1560-1620
Arnold, Janet , Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd
Arnold, Janet , A Handbook of Costume
Ashelford, Jane, Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I
Ashelford, Jane, The Art of Dress
Ashelford, Jane, The Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century
Brownfoot, Andrew, High Fashion in Shakespeare's Time
Cunnington, C. Willett, Handbook of English Costume in the Sixteenth Century
Cunnington, C. Willett, The History of Underclothes
Dupont_Aubaerville, M., Full-color Historic Textile Designs
fischbach, Friedrich, Historical Textile Patterns in Full Color
Hart, Avril, Historical Fashion in Detail: the 17th and 18th Centuries
Harvey, Anthony, The Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey
Hearn, Karen, Dynasties: Painting in Tudor and Jacobean England 1530-1630
Howard, Maurice, The Tudor Image
Hunnisent, Jean, Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women’s Dress 1500-1800
Macleod, Catherine, Tudor Portraits: In the National Portrait Gallersy Collection
Mikhaila, Ninya, Tudor Tailor: Reconstructing Sixteenth-Century Dress
Scarisbrick, Diana, Tudor and Jacobean Jewellery
Vincent, Susan, Dressing the Elite: Clothes in Early Modern England
Vinciolo, Federico, Renaissance Patterns for Lace, Embroidery and Needlepoint
Waugh, Norah, Corsets and Crinolines
These two are on my wish list:
Arnold, Janet, Patterns of Fashion 4: The cut and Construction of Linen Shirts, Smocks, Neckwear, Headwear and Accessories for Men & Women c. 1540-1660
Hayward, Maria, Dress at the Court of King Henry VIII
A lot of these books are very expensive, and/or out of print - however I also know that a number of these books are available in the university libraries in Florida. In fact, the USF library has a lot of good sources since that's where I used to do the majority of my library scrounging before I moved to Gainesville. Most university libraries will let the public sign up to borrow books. You can also scan or copy the parts that you need for your research, as long as it's for your own use and you aren't sharing it.
I rarely lend books from my personal library anymore because I've had far too many experiences with never getting expensive books back. I've lost a number of books that I was never able to replace, either due to the book no longer being available or not being able to afford to buy it again. If someone really needs something from my library, they can contact me to make some arrangements, but it might involve coming to my house and going to Kinko's together so you can make some copies or scans. =)
I'm sorry I can't be of more help. =)
Dulcia
From: Dulcia MacPherson <countessdulcia at gmail.com>
Date: December 15, 2011 2:23:07 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Digest
<<< Norris's drawings were redrawn by Dover.
Colm Dubh >>>
If that is the case (and I am not convinced that it is) the drawings, whether original to Norris or redrawn from Norris' drawings by Dover, are still worthless for documentation.
I own facsimiles and actual (antique) copies of number of costuming books produced around the same time as Norris' books and the drawing style is very similar in all of them. In General, Dover books are so inexpensive because they use a photographic facsimile process and do as little editing and improving as possible. Regardless, a redrawing of a period work of art is useless for documentation, especially since many of Norris' are amalgamations of multiple outfits, rather than a representation of a single, actual outfit.
Dulcia
<the end>