cl-Germany-msg - 4/13/19 Clothing of Medieval Germany. NOTE: See also the files: clothing-msg, cl-Italy-msg, clothing-books-msg, p-shoes-msg, Germany-bib, Germany-msg, fd-Germany-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: erilarlo at win.bright.net Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: german name documentation Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:44:38 -0600 Organization: BrightNet Wisconsin zigs66 at aol.com (Zigs66) wrote: > I have (I think) settled on a Germanic persona, probably as a trader > living somewhere in the 12th-14th century range. I tentatively chose the > region of Cologne, as this was in the major trading route. > With this in mind, I came up with the name Anneliese Wildfang. > Anneliese came from a list of German female names (it also included Anna > and Liesl) and Wildfang came from a german dictionary, and means hoyden. Possibly useful clothing note: the grosse Manessische Liederhandschrift has easy-to-imitate clothing. Even if you can't read German, the pictures might be helpful. Actually, even if you can read modern German, the poems aren't: they're in Middle High German. I have no documentation to offer, but I don't recall any doubled first names in the period you've chosen. Have fun! erilar --------------------------------------------------------------------- Translation of the verse in Old Norse as well as other words of wisdom are among the treasures hidden in Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo To: SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:44:54 -0700 From: Lynn Meyer Subject: Re: Really early spainish garb There are several resources at the Medieval Spain list that might help -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Medieval_Spain/ Halima (de la Lucha) <<< My 7 yr. old has become obsessed with El Cid, to the point that he would like to be El Cid :). So make the SCA more interesting to him, I'd like to make him some garb from that period, that is, Spainish before the first Crusade. Besides the basic tunic, is there anything different that would make it early Spainish? I'm having trouble finding anything on the 'net. Has anyone even done any research on this area/timeperiod? Beatrix of Tanet >>> From: Heather Rose Jones Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:04:09 GMT Tracy Mazur wrote: > I'm kind of a semi-newb, and have done things, when I was younger and in > college with the SCA (I might say thought that most of it was half-assed). > > Anyway, I've got more time on my hands now (though note I did not say more $ > ), and want to try to do things right this time. > > I've decided that I'd like to do an early germanic (going to look for a > tribe in southern germany, kind of the area where Bayern is now) persona, > around between 400-600AD, a post roman kind of thing. I'm one of those > wierd females who prefers to wear male-style garb (no particular reason > except that I'm very, very, very uncomfortable in dresses. Believe it or > not, the only dresses that even start to approach a modicum of comfort to me > are actually garb, but I can't wear them all the time). I've got a fairly > good idea what type of garb I'll need (pretty basic T-tunics with narrow > sleeves, pants, basic square woolen cloak, etc...). > > I know wool is a good textile, but what about lighter weight leather? I'm > going to do my armor for fighting in leather (thus the question about scale > mail), and figured if I'm going to work with leather for that, I might as > well check out clothing options. > > Are there any good books that could give me a clue in that direction? I've > hit a few websites, but it seems a little hard to find pre-1000 garb ideas > online unless you're going to do a viking. Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into). Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of: Schlabow, Ka From: Heather Rose Jones Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:45:23 GMT Heather Rose Jones wrote: > Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for the clothing > of migration era Germany, although the majority of the evidence I'm > familiar with tends to come from northern Germany (due to there being > more bogs there for people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into). > > Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of: > > Schlabow, Ka Whoa! Whatever happened to the rest of that? It was there when I hit "send". Let's try that again if I can reconstruct the rest of it. Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of: Schlabow, Karl. 1976. Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland. Karl Wachholtz Verlag, Neumuenster. ISBN 3-529-01515-6 An extensive and relatively exhaustive look at surviving textiles and clothing from northern German in the Iron Age. Also useful (if less comprehensive) may be: Bertel, Antja & Ronald Knochle. 1993. "Zu einem Frauengrab des sechsten Jahrhunderts aus ..." in Germania: 71:419-439. Schlabow, Karl. 1938. "Kleidungstucke aus dem Moorfund von Damendorf" in Offa: 114-121. Schlabow, Karl. 1938. "Textilreste vom Galgenberg in Itzehoe" in Offa: 85-88. Schleiermacher, Mathilde. 1982. "Romische Leder- und Textilfunde aus Koln" in Archaeologisches Korrespo: 12:205-214. Schlabow, Karl. 1982. Thorsberger Prachtmantel. Karl Wachholtz Verlag, Neumünster. ISBN 3529-01705-1 Hald, Margrethe. 1972. Primitive Shoes. The Nat. Mus. of Denmark, Copenhagen. ISBN 87-480-7282-6 Knowledge of German (or access to someone who does) would be extremely useful to you in this quest, as a significant amount of the publications on German archaeology are published in German. Tangwystyl -- **Please Note New E-ddress** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones at earthlink.net From: "Tracy Mazur" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:29:13 -0400 "Heather Rose Jones" wrote in message Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is going to be a trick and a half. :) Does it mention much about clothing styles, or is it all cloth, all the time? Tracy > Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for > the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority > of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from > northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for > people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into). > > Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of: > > Schlabow, Ka From: Ester Mendes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:05:13 -0700 On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Tracy Mazur wrote: > Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is > going to be a trick and a half. :) As with most scholarly titles, your best bet is to go to your local public library and talk to the librarians there about borrowing a copy through Interlibrary Loan (ILL). Here is the information you would use to do that: Title: Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland Author(s): Schlabow, Karl. Publication: Neumünster : K. Wachholtz, 1976 Standard No: ISBN: 3529015156; LCCN: 76-478084 OCLC: 2526391 Approximately 29 libraries have this title: UNIV OF WASHINGTON LIBR UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY YALE UNIV LIBR LIBRARY OF CONGRESS SMITHSONIAN INST UNIV OF GEORGIA NORTHWESTERN UNIV SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIV UNIV OF CHICAGO INDIANA UNIV HARVARD UNIV, HARVARD COL LIBR TECH SERV UNIV OF MICHIGAN LIBR WAYNE STATE UNIV UNIV OF MISSOURI, COLUMBIA PRINCETON UNIV COLUMBIA UNIV CORNELL UNIV NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR OHIO STATE UNIV, THE UNIV OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, GEN LIBR SYS UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MILWAUKEE UNIV OF WESTERN ONTARIO BIBLIOTHEQUE NAT & UNIV STRASBOURG BNU STRASBOURG, RCON PROJ BRITISH MUS, DEPT OF ETHNOGRAPHY NATIONAL UNIV OF IRELAND, GALWAY UNIV LIBR DE BRUXELLES UNIV OF OXFORD Ester Mendes (Kirsti Thomas) celyn at drizzle.com From: Heather Rose Jones Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:52:40 GMT Tracy Mazur wrote: > "Heather Rose Jones" wrote in message > Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is > going to be a trick and a half. :) Does it mention much about clothing > styles, or is it all cloth, all the time? I've re-posted the complete version of my original post. Schlabow includes detailed diagrams and technical drawings (in addition to photographs) of all the major clothing survivals. This includes close to half a dozen pairs of trousers, a similar number of tunics, a large number of cloaks, and a variety of other items such as leg-wraps. Many of these finds also had non-textile items associated with them (e.g., shoes, belts, jewelry) but this particular book focuses on the textile goods. The tunics are all relatively straightforward in cut (and, of course, the cloaks are simplicity itself) but the trousers use a variety of rather complicated close-fitting cuts that will take some experimenting to work out. I've been trying to work up a set of drafting instructions for the pair from Thorsbjerg (or rather, the best-known of the pairs from Thorsbjerg) but it still has a number of bugs to work out. (I can make it work for _me_, I just haven't gotten it to work reliably for other people.) Tangwystyl -- **Please Note New E-ddress** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones at earthlink.net Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:45:24 +1000 From: Jacinta Reid Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Lila Richards wrote: <<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras! http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-**alte-kulturen/home/** jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64 >>> Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick translation of the salient points? And if they can, can they please post it here? Marienne, what time period is this from? ================== I'm hoping that someone fluent will offer a translation, but just using Google Translate I read that the finds seem to be (late?) 15th Century, based on the written records of the history of the building they were found in. My understanding is that the textiles were among the dry rubble/straw/sticks/old shoes etc that were packed inside a wall when the place was renovated all those centuries ago, and now new renovations are taking place, archaeological research is also being done (as one would hope!). The text refers to a linen bodice-like garment, and what appears to be a linen bra. There were other textiles found, too, and they are undergoing scientific analysis. One of the more relevant and coherent Google Translations is this passage: "An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different textile forms. Including a series of almost completely preserved garments uniquely female provenance, especially underwear (bra and Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes." Could this be the castle referred to as the "Castle Lengberg Nikol village in East Tyrol" source of the garments? It's in Austria. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nikolsdorf -- Jacinta Reid Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:53:22 +1200 (NZST) From: Alasdair Muckart Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" Cc: althing at sca.org.nz, lochac at sca.org.au On Thu, 21 Jul 2011, Maggie Forest wrote: <<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras! http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-alte-kulturen/home/jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64 >>> Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick translation of the salient points? ================= A cut and paste into google translate produces a fairly comprehensible summary, albeit with very germanic sentence constructions In the course of extensive, funded by the province of Tyrol, Renovations in July 2008 in Castle Lengberg Nikol village in East Tyrol were bauanalytische and archaeological Research in several areas the building is necessary. It was in the south wing the castle in the southwest to Room 2.07 in 2nd Floor, a vaulted interstices filled localized and documented. The fill material was Workers at a local construction firm under the supervision of T. Tischer, and N. Graf and removed for later Siebaktion stored. This took place in summer 2009 in Volders during a lecture led by H. Stadler the Institute of Archaeology, University of Innsbruck instead. The filling consisted of dry material in different layers, including organic Material such as branches and straw, but it could also Mass discovery of artifacts such as finished wood, leather (Especially shoes), coins, ceramics, correspondence on paper and many fabrics discovered and screened be. The written evidence of the architectural history the castle and the architectural study of Martin Mittermaier and Walter Hauser of Landeskon- Figure 2 bodice Figure 1 bra servatorat put Tyrol, and the archaeological findings Dating the first one finds the 15th Century close. So can be assumed that most filling in the wake of an increase to three-story facility approximation to the level of the soil above the vault ton the underlying space in the vault gusset was spent. The found textiles, both those made of linen as well as wool and silk, are now in a Dissertation, a scholarly work experience. An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different Textile forms. Including a series of almost completely preserved uniquely feminine clothing Provenance, especially underwear (bra and Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes. Furthermore, there are still several fragments Lei- Figure 3: heavily pleated One sleeve linen shirt nenhemden with high collar and sleeve puckering with preserved textile buttons and button holes associated (Fig. 3) whose size, especially the small cuff diameter, suggesting that they also stock of women's clothes were, or even of children were worn. In addition to lead are the remains headgear of both lines as well as from Straw (Fig. 4). To be preserved Nestell?chern, v.a. the Bodice fit parts, corresponding braided Nestelb?nder (Fig. 5) and the associated Nestelh?lsen from Ferrous metal, which for closing the clothes served. These dresses are also closures Hafteln non-ferrous metal and iron, textiles and buttons. The majority of textile finds consists of larger and smaller fragments, usually made of linen (wool textiles are generally in worse condition and much more fragmented), many of them with sutures and / or fringes. Several fragments provide information on a secondary use. They were apparently torn into strips and used as binding material, how can some suspect pieces with knots. Detailed attention to the information received Silk textiles, including one where the fragment possible wall-hanging with former paperback Pattern (Fig. 7). A small fragment of cloth with additional Lahn gold thread and a leaf-shaped application of silver tinsel thread (Fig. 6) provide clues to the Wealth of their former owners. Figure 4: Fragment one Straw hat Figure 5: Nestelband Figure 6: Application of silver tinsel thread Figure 7: Fragment of a tapestry? Silk -- Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net Edited by Mark S. Harris cl-Germany-msg Page 2 of 8