cl-Germany-msg - 4/13/19
Clothing of Medieval Germany.
NOTE: See also the files: clothing-msg, cl-Italy-msg, clothing-books-msg, p-shoes-msg, Germany-bib, Germany-msg, fd-Germany-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: erilarlo at win.bright.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: german name documentation
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:44:38 -0600
Organization: BrightNet Wisconsin
zigs66 at aol.com (Zigs66) wrote:
> I have (I think) settled on a Germanic persona, probably as a trader
> living somewhere in the 12th-14th century range. I tentatively chose the
> region of Cologne, as this was in the major trading route.
> With this in mind, I came up with the name Anneliese Wildfang.
> Anneliese came from a list of German female names (it also included Anna
> and Liesl) and Wildfang came from a german dictionary, and means hoyden.
Possibly useful clothing note: the grosse Manessische Liederhandschrift
has easy-to-imitate clothing. Even if you can't read German, the pictures
might be helpful. Actually, even if you can read modern German, the poems
aren't: they're in Middle High German.
I have no documentation to offer, but I don't recall any doubled first
names in the period you've chosen.
Have fun! erilar
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Translation of the verse in Old Norse as well as other words of wisdom are among the treasures hidden in Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
To: SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:44:54 -0700
From: Lynn Meyer <lmeyer at NETBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Really early spainish garb
There are several resources at the Medieval Spain list that might help --
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Medieval_Spain/
Halima (de la Lucha)
<<< My 7 yr. old has become obsessed with El Cid, to the point that he would
like to be El Cid :). So make the SCA more interesting to him, I'd like to
make him some garb from that period, that is, Spainish before the first
Crusade. Besides the basic tunic, is there anything different that would
make it early Spainish? I'm having trouble finding anything on the 'net. Has
anyone even done any research on this area/timeperiod?
Beatrix of Tanet >>>
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:04:09 GMT
Tracy Mazur wrote:
> I'm kind of a semi-newb, and have done things, when I was younger and in
> college with the SCA (I might say thought that most of it was half-assed).
>
> Anyway, I've got more time on my hands now (though note I did not say more $
> <grin>), and want to try to do things right this time.
>
> I've decided that I'd like to do an early germanic (going to look for a
> tribe in southern germany, kind of the area where Bayern is now) persona,
> around between 400-600AD, a post roman kind of thing. I'm one of those
> wierd females who prefers to wear male-style garb (no particular reason
> except that I'm very, very, very uncomfortable in dresses. Believe it or
> not, the only dresses that even start to approach a modicum of comfort to me
> are actually garb, but I can't wear them all the time). I've got a fairly
> good idea what type of garb I'll need (pretty basic T-tunics with narrow
> sleeves, pants, basic square woolen cloak, etc...).
>
> I know wool is a good textile, but what about lighter weight leather? I'm
> going to do my armor for fighting in leather (thus the question about scale
> mail), and figured if I'm going to work with leather for that, I might as
> well check out clothing options.
>
> Are there any good books that could give me a clue in that direction? I've
> hit a few websites, but it seems a little hard to find pre-1000 garb ideas
> online unless you're going to do a viking.
Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for
the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority
of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from
northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for
people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).
Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:
Schlabow, Ka
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:45:23 GMT
Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for the clothing
> of migration era Germany, although the majority of the evidence I'm
> familiar with tends to come from northern Germany (due to there being
> more bogs there for people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).
>
> Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:
>
> Schlabow, Ka
Whoa! Whatever happened to the rest of that? It was there
when I hit "send". Let's try that again if I can
reconstruct the rest of it.
Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:
Schlabow, Karl. 1976. Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in
Norddeutschland. Karl Wachholtz Verlag, Neumuenster. ISBN
3-529-01515-6
An extensive and relatively exhaustive look at surviving
textiles and clothing from northern German in the Iron Age.
Also useful (if less comprehensive) may be:
Bertel, Antja & Ronald Knochle. 1993. "Zu einem Frauengrab
des sechsten Jahrhunderts aus ..." in Germania: 71:419-439.
Schlabow, Karl. 1938. "Kleidungstucke aus dem Moorfund von
Damendorf" in Offa: 114-121.
Schlabow, Karl. 1938. "Textilreste vom Galgenberg in
Itzehoe" in Offa: 85-88.
Schleiermacher, Mathilde. 1982. "Romische Leder- und
Textilfunde aus Koln" in Archaeologisches Korrespo:
12:205-214.
Schlabow, Karl. 1982. Thorsberger Prachtmantel. Karl
Wachholtz Verlag, Neumünster. ISBN 3529-01705-1
Hald, Margrethe. 1972. Primitive Shoes. The Nat. Mus. of
Denmark, Copenhagen. ISBN 87-480-7282-6
Knowledge of German (or access to someone who does) would be
extremely useful to you in this quest, as a significant
amount of the publications on German archaeology are
published in German.
Tangwystyl
--
**Please Note New E-ddress**
Heather Rose Jones heather.jones at earthlink.net
From: "Tracy Mazur" <temazur at adelphia.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:29:13 -0400
"Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones at earthlink.net> wrote in message
Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is
going to be a trick and a half. :) Does it mention much about clothing
styles, or is it all cloth, all the time?
Tracy
> Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for
> the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority
> of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from
> northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for
> people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).
>
> Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:
>
> Schlabow, Ka
From: Ester Mendes <celyn at drizzle.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:05:13 -0700
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Tracy Mazur wrote:
> Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is
> going to be a trick and a half. :)
As with most scholarly titles, your best bet is to go to
your local public library and talk to the librarians
there about borrowing a copy through Interlibrary Loan
(ILL).
Here is the information you would use to do that:
Title: Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland
Author(s): Schlabow, Karl.
Publication: Neumünster : K. Wachholtz, 1976
Standard No: ISBN: 3529015156; LCCN: 76-478084
OCLC: 2526391
Approximately 29 libraries have this title:
UNIV OF WASHINGTON LIBR
UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
YALE UNIV LIBR
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
SMITHSONIAN INST
UNIV OF GEORGIA
NORTHWESTERN UNIV
SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIV
UNIV OF CHICAGO
INDIANA UNIV
HARVARD UNIV, HARVARD COL LIBR TECH SERV
UNIV OF MICHIGAN LIBR
WAYNE STATE UNIV
UNIV OF MISSOURI, COLUMBIA
PRINCETON UNIV
COLUMBIA UNIV
CORNELL UNIV
NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR
OHIO STATE UNIV, THE
UNIV OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN
UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, GEN LIBR SYS
UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MILWAUKEE
UNIV OF WESTERN ONTARIO
BIBLIOTHEQUE NAT & UNIV STRASBOURG
BNU STRASBOURG, RCON PROJ
BRITISH MUS, DEPT OF ETHNOGRAPHY
NATIONAL UNIV OF IRELAND, GALWAY
UNIV LIBR DE BRUXELLES
UNIV OF OXFORD
Ester Mendes
(Kirsti Thomas)
celyn at drizzle.com
From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:52:40 GMT
Tracy Mazur wrote:
> "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones at earthlink.net> wrote in message
> Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"? Finding that is
> going to be a trick and a half. :) Does it mention much about clothing
> styles, or is it all cloth, all the time?
I've re-posted the complete version of my original post.
Schlabow includes detailed diagrams and technical drawings
(in addition to photographs) of all the major clothing
survivals. This includes close to half a dozen pairs of
trousers, a similar number of tunics, a large number of
cloaks, and a variety of other items such as leg-wraps.
Many of these finds also had non-textile items associated
with them (e.g., shoes, belts, jewelry) but this particular
book focuses on the textile goods.
The tunics are all relatively straightforward in cut (and,
of course, the cloaks are simplicity itself) but the
trousers use a variety of rather complicated close-fitting
cuts that will take some experimenting to work out. I've
been trying to work up a set of drafting instructions for
the pair from Thorsbjerg (or rather, the best-known of the
pairs from Thorsbjerg) but it still has a number of bugs to
work out. (I can make it work for _me_, I just haven't
gotten it to work reliably for other people.)
Tangwystyl
--
**Please Note New E-ddress**
Heather Rose Jones heather.jones at earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:45:24 +1000
From: Jacinta Reid <omnott at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Lila Richards <lilar at ihug.co.nz> wrote:
<<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras!
http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-**alte-kulturen/home/**
jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64<http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-alte-kulturen/home/jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64> >>>
Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick
translation of the salient points?
And if they can, can they please post it here? Marienne, what time period
is this from?
==================
I'm hoping that someone fluent will offer a translation, but just using
Google Translate I read that the finds seem to be (late?) 15th Century,
based on the written records of the history of the building they were found
in.
My understanding is that the textiles were among the dry
rubble/straw/sticks/old shoes etc that were packed inside a wall when the
place was renovated all those centuries ago, and now new renovations are
taking place, archaeological research is also being done (as one would
hope!).
The text refers to a linen bodice-like garment, and what appears to be a
linen bra. There were other textiles found, too, and they are undergoing
scientific analysis.
One of the more relevant and coherent Google Translations is this passage:
"An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different textile
forms. Including a series of almost
completely preserved garments uniquely female provenance, especially
underwear (bra and
Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen
Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes."
Could this be the castle referred to as the "Castle Lengberg Nikol village
in East Tyrol" source of the garments? It's in Austria.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nikolsdorf
--
Jacinta Reid
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:53:22 +1200 (NZST)
From: Alasdair Muckart <silver at where.else.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
<lochac at lochac.sca.org>
Cc: althing at sca.org.nz, lochac at sca.org.au
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011, Maggie Forest wrote:
<<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras!
http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-alte-kulturen/home/jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64 >>>
Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick
translation of the salient points?
=================
A cut and paste into google translate produces a fairly comprehensible
summary, albeit with very germanic sentence constructions
In the course of extensive, funded by the province of Tyrol,
Renovations in July 2008 in Castle Lengberg
Nikol village in East Tyrol were bauanalytische and archaeological
Research in several areas
the building is necessary. It was in the south wing
the castle in the southwest to Room 2.07 in
2nd Floor, a vaulted interstices filled localized
and documented. The fill material was
Workers at a local construction firm under the supervision of
T. Tischer, and N. Graf and removed for later Siebaktion
stored. This took place in summer 2009 in Volders
during a lecture led by H. Stadler
the Institute of Archaeology, University of Innsbruck
instead. The filling consisted of dry material
in different layers, including organic
Material such as branches and straw, but it could also
Mass discovery of artifacts such as finished wood, leather
(Especially shoes), coins, ceramics, correspondence
on paper and many fabrics discovered and screened
be. The written evidence of the architectural history
the castle and the architectural study of
Martin Mittermaier and Walter Hauser of Landeskon-
Figure 2 bodice
Figure 1 bra
servatorat put Tyrol, and the archaeological findings
Dating the first one finds the 15th Century close. So
can be assumed that most filling
in the wake of an increase to three-story facility
approximation to the level of the soil above the vault ton
the underlying space in the vault gusset
was spent.
The found textiles, both those made of linen
as well as wool and silk, are now in a
Dissertation, a scholarly work experience.
An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different
Textile forms. Including a series of almost
completely preserved uniquely feminine clothing
Provenance, especially underwear (bra and
Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen
Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes.
Furthermore, there are still several fragments Lei-
Figure 3: heavily pleated
One sleeve linen shirt
nenhemden with high collar and sleeve puckering
with preserved textile buttons and button holes associated
(Fig. 3) whose size, especially the small cuff diameter,
suggesting that they also stock
of women's clothes were, or even of children
were worn. In addition to lead are the remains
headgear of both lines as well as from
Straw (Fig. 4). To be preserved Nestell?chern, v.a. the
Bodice fit parts, corresponding braided Nestelb?nder
(Fig. 5) and the associated Nestelh?lsen from
Ferrous metal, which for closing the clothes
served. These dresses are also closures Hafteln
non-ferrous metal and iron, textiles and buttons.
The majority of textile finds consists of larger and
smaller fragments, usually made of linen (wool textiles
are generally in worse condition
and much more fragmented), many of them with sutures
and / or fringes. Several fragments provide information on
a secondary use. They were apparently
torn into strips and used as binding material,
how can some suspect pieces with knots.
Detailed attention to the information received
Silk textiles, including one where the fragment
possible wall-hanging with former paperback
Pattern (Fig. 7). A small fragment of cloth with additional
Lahn gold thread and a leaf-shaped application
of silver tinsel thread (Fig. 6) provide clues to the
Wealth of their former owners.
Figure 4: Fragment
one
Straw hat
Figure 5: Nestelband
Figure 6: Application of silver tinsel thread
Figure 7: Fragment of a tapestry? Silk
--
Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net
<the end>