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cl-Germany-msg - 2/5/12

 

Clothing of Medieval Germany.

 

NOTE: See also the files: clothing-msg, cl-Italy-msg, clothing-books-msg, p-shoes-msg, Germany-bib, Germany-msg, fd-Germany-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: erilarlo at win.bright.net

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: german name documentation

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:44:38 -0600

Organization: BrightNet Wisconsin

 

zigs66 at aol.com (Zigs66) wrote:

>      I have (I think) settled on a Germanic persona, probably as a trader

> living somewhere in the 12th-14th century range.  I tentatively chose the

> region of Cologne, as this was in the major trading route.  

>      With this in mind, I came up with the name Anneliese Wildfang.

> Anneliese came from a list of German female names (it also included Anna

> and Liesl) and Wildfang came from a german dictionary, and means hoyden.

 

Possibly useful clothing note: the grosse Manessische Liederhandschrift

has easy-to-imitate clothing. Even if you can't read German, the pictures

might be helpful. Actually, even if you can read modern German, the poems

aren't: they're in Middle High German.

 

I have no documentation to offer, but I don't recall any doubled first

names in the period you've chosen.

 

   Have fun!  erilar

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Translation of the verse in Old Norse as well as other words of wisdom are among the treasures hidden in Erilar's Cave Annex:

http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo

 

 

From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 02:04:09 GMT

 

Tracy Mazur wrote:

> I'm kind of a semi-newb, and have done things, when I was younger and in

> college with the SCA (I might say thought that most of it was half-assed).

>

> Anyway, I've got more time on my hands now (though note I did not say more $

> <grin>), and want to try to do things right this time.

>

> I've decided that I'd like to do an early germanic (going to look for a

> tribe in southern germany, kind of the area where Bayern is now) persona,

> around between 400-600AD, a post roman kind of thing.  I'm one of those

> wierd females who prefers to wear male-style garb (no particular reason

> except that I'm very, very, very uncomfortable in dresses.  Believe it or

> not, the only dresses that even start to approach a modicum of comfort to me

> are actually garb, but I can't wear them all the time).  I've got a fairly

> good idea what type of garb I'll need (pretty basic T-tunics with narrow

> sleeves, pants, basic square woolen cloak, etc...).

>

> I know wool is a good textile, but what about lighter weight leather?  I'm

> going to do my armor for fighting in leather (thus the question about scale

> mail), and figured if I'm going to work with leather for that, I might as

> well check out clothing options.

>

> Are there any good books that could give me a clue in that direction?  I've

> hit a few websites, but it seems a little hard to find pre-1000 garb ideas

> online unless you're going to do a viking.

 

Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for

the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority

of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from

northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for

people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).

 

Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:

 

Schlabow, Ka

 

 

From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:45:23 GMT

 

Heather Rose Jones wrote:

> Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for the clothing

> of migration era Germany, although the majority of the evidence I'm

> familiar with tends to come from northern Germany (due to there being

> more bogs there for people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).

>

> Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:

>

> Schlabow, Ka

 

Whoa!  Whatever happened to the rest of that?  It was there

when I hit "send".  Let's try that again if I can

reconstruct the rest of it.

 

Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:

 

Schlabow, Karl.  1976.  Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in

Norddeutschland.  Karl Wachholtz Verlag, Neumuenster.  ISBN

  3-529-01515-6

 

An extensive and relatively exhaustive look at surviving

textiles and clothing from northern German in the Iron Age.

  Also useful (if less comprehensive) may be:

 

Bertel, Antja & Ronald Knochle. 1993.  "Zu einem Frauengrab

des sechsten Jahrhunderts aus ..." in  Germania:  71:419-439.

 

Schlabow, Karl.  1938. "Kleidungstucke aus dem Moorfund von

Damendorf" in  Offa:  114-121.

 

Schlabow, Karl.  1938.  "Textilreste vom Galgenberg in

Itzehoe" in  Offa:  85-88.

 

Schleiermacher, Mathilde.  1982. "Romische Leder- und

Textilfunde aus Koln" in Archaeologisches Korrespo:

12:205-214.

 

Schlabow, Karl.  1982.  Thorsberger Prachtmantel.  Karl

Wachholtz Verlag, Neum√ľnster.  ISBN 3529-01705-1

 

Hald, Margrethe.  1972.  Primitive Shoes. The Nat. Mus. of

Denmark, Copenhagen.  ISBN  87-480-7282-6

 

Knowledge of German (or access to someone who does) would be

extremely useful to you in this quest, as a significant

amount of the publications on German archaeology are

published in German.

 

Tangwystyl

--

**Please Note New E-ddress**

Heather Rose Jones    heather.jones at earthlink.net

 

 

From: "Tracy  Mazur" <temazur at adelphia.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:29:13 -0400

 

"Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones at earthlink.net> wrote in message

 

Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"?  Finding that is

going to be a trick and a half.  :)  Does it mention much about clothing

styles, or is it all cloth, all the time?

 

Tracy

 

> Relatively speaking, there's an embarrassment of riches for

> the clothing of migration era Germany, although the majority

> of the evidence I'm familiar with tends to come from

> northern Germany (due to there being more bogs there for

> people to be pushed ... uh ... fall into).

> Do whatever you find necessary to get your hands on a copy of:

> Schlabow, Ka

 

 

From: Ester Mendes <celyn at drizzle.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:05:13 -0700

 

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Tracy  Mazur wrote:

> Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"?  Finding that is

> going to be a trick and a half.  :)

 

As with most scholarly titles, your best bet is to go to

your local public library and talk to the librarians

there about borrowing a copy through Interlibrary Loan

(ILL).  

 

Here is the information you would use to do that:

 

Title: Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland  

Author(s): Schlabow, Karl.  

Publication: Neum√ľnster : K. Wachholtz, 1976

Standard No: ISBN: 3529015156; LCCN: 76-478084  

OCLC: 2526391

 

Approximately 29 libraries have this title:

 

UNIV OF WASHINGTON LIBR  

UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY  

YALE UNIV LIBR  

LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

SMITHSONIAN INST

UNIV OF GEORGIA

NORTHWESTERN UNIV

SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIV    

UNIV OF CHICAGO    

INDIANA UNIV  

HARVARD UNIV, HARVARD COL LIBR TECH SERV   

UNIV OF MICHIGAN LIBR    

WAYNE STATE UNIV    

UNIV OF MISSOURI, COLUMBIA    

PRINCETON UNIV    

COLUMBIA UNIV    

CORNELL UNIV    

NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR    

OHIO STATE UNIV, THE    

UNIV OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN    

UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, GEN LIBR SYS   

UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MILWAUKEE    

UNIV OF WESTERN ONTARIO    

BIBLIOTHEQUE NAT & UNIV STRASBOURG  

BNU STRASBOURG, RCON PROJ  

BRITISH MUS, DEPT OF ETHNOGRAPHY    

NATIONAL UNIV OF IRELAND, GALWAY    

UNIV LIBR DE BRUXELLES    

UNIV OF OXFORD  

 

Ester Mendes

(Kirsti Thomas)

celyn at drizzle.com

 

 

From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Another stupid newb post question.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 04:52:40 GMT

 

Tracy Mazur wrote:

> "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones at earthlink.net> wrote in message

> Do you mean "Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland"?  Finding that is

> going to be a trick and a half.  :) Does it mention much about clothing

> styles, or is it all cloth, all the time?

 

I've re-posted the complete version of my original post.

Schlabow includes detailed diagrams and technical drawings

(in addition to photographs) of all the major clothing

survivals.  This includes close to half a dozen pairs of

trousers, a similar number of tunics, a large number of

cloaks, and a variety of other items such as leg-wraps.

Many of these finds also had non-textile items associated

with them (e.g., shoes, belts, jewelry) but this particular

book focuses on the textile goods.

 

The tunics are all relatively straightforward in cut (and,

of course, the cloaks are simplicity itself) but the

trousers use a variety of rather complicated close-fitting

cuts that will take some experimenting to work out.  I've

been trying to work up a set of drafting instructions for

the pair from Thorsbjerg (or rather, the best-known of the

pairs from Thorsbjerg) but it still has a number of bugs to

work out.  (I can make it work for _me_, I just haven't

gotten it to work reliably for other people.)

 

Tangwystyl

--

**Please Note New E-ddress**

Heather Rose Jones    heather.jones at earthlink.net

 

 

Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:45:24 +1000

From: Jacinta Reid <omnott at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

        <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

 

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Lila Richards <lilar at ihug.co.nz> wrote:

<<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras!

 

http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-**alte-kulturen/home/**

jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64<http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-alte-kulturen/home/jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64> >>>

 

Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick

translation of the salient points?

 

And if they can, can they please post it here? Marienne, what time period

is this from?

==================

 

I'm hoping that someone fluent will offer a translation, but just using

Google Translate I read that the finds seem to be (late?) 15th Century,

based on the written records of the history of the building they were found

in.

 

My understanding is that the textiles were among the dry

rubble/straw/sticks/old shoes etc that were packed inside a wall when the

place was renovated all those centuries ago, and now new renovations are

taking place, archaeological research is also being done (as one would

hope!).

 

The text refers to a linen bodice-like garment, and what appears to be a

linen bra. There were other textiles found, too, and they are undergoing

scientific analysis.

 

One of the more relevant and coherent Google Translations is this passage:

"An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different textile

forms. Including a series of almost

completely preserved garments uniquely female provenance, especially

underwear (bra and

Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen

Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes."

 

Could this be the castle referred to as the "Castle Lengberg Nikol village

in East Tyrol" source of the garments? It's in Austria.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nikolsdorf

--

Jacinta Reid

 

 

Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:53:22 +1200 (NZST)

From: Alasdair Muckart <silver at where.else.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] german underwear

To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"

        <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

Cc: althing at sca.org.nz, lochac at sca.org.au

 

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011, Maggie Forest wrote:

<<< The german underwear in an article with pictures! Bras!

 

http://www.uibk.ac.at/zentrum-alte-kulturen/home/jahresbericht2009.pdf#page=64 >>>

 

Anybody with a better understanding of German able to do a quick

translation of the salient points?

=================

 

A cut and paste into google translate produces a fairly comprehensible

summary, albeit with very germanic sentence constructions

 

In the course of extensive, funded by the province of Tyrol,

Renovations in July 2008 in Castle Lengberg

Nikol village in East Tyrol were bauanalytische and archaeological

Research in several areas

the building is necessary. It was in the south wing

the castle in the southwest to Room 2.07 in

2nd Floor, a vaulted interstices filled localized

and documented. The fill material was

Workers at a local construction firm under the supervision of

T. Tischer, and N. Graf and removed for later Siebaktion

stored. This took place in summer 2009 in Volders

during a lecture led by H. Stadler

the Institute of Archaeology, University of Innsbruck

instead. The filling consisted of dry material

in different layers, including organic

Material such as branches and straw, but it could also

Mass discovery of artifacts such as finished wood, leather

(Especially shoes), coins, ceramics, correspondence

on paper and many fabrics discovered and screened

be. The written evidence of the architectural history

the castle and the architectural study of

Martin Mittermaier and Walter Hauser of Landeskon-

Figure 2 bodice

Figure 1 bra

servatorat put Tyrol, and the archaeological findings

Dating the first one finds the 15th Century close. So

can be assumed that most filling

in the wake of an increase to three-story facility

approximation to the level of the soil above the vault ton

the underlying space in the vault gusset

was spent.

The found textiles, both those made of linen

as well as wool and silk, are now in a

Dissertation, a scholarly work experience.

An initial perusal of the material revealed a plethora of different

Textile forms. Including a series of almost

completely preserved uniquely feminine clothing

Provenance, especially underwear (bra and

Bodice shapes, figures 1 and 2), as well as fragments of linen

Interior lining with sparse remnants of the former woolen clothes.

Furthermore, there are still several fragments Lei-

Figure 3: heavily pleated

One sleeve linen shirt

nenhemden with high collar and sleeve puckering

with preserved textile buttons and button holes associated

(Fig. 3) whose size, especially the small cuff diameter,

suggesting that they also stock

of women's clothes were, or even of children

were worn. In addition to lead are the remains

headgear of both lines as well as from

Straw (Fig. 4). To be preserved Nestell?chern, v.a. the

Bodice fit parts, corresponding braided Nestelb?nder

(Fig. 5) and the associated Nestelh?lsen from

Ferrous metal, which for closing the clothes

served. These dresses are also closures Hafteln

non-ferrous metal and iron, textiles and buttons.

The majority of textile finds consists of larger and

smaller fragments, usually made of linen (wool textiles

are generally in worse condition

and much more fragmented), many of them with sutures

and / or fringes. Several fragments provide information on

a secondary use. They were apparently

torn into strips and used as binding material,

how can some suspect pieces with knots.

Detailed attention to the information received

Silk textiles, including one where the fragment

possible wall-hanging with former paperback

Pattern (Fig. 7). A small fragment of cloth with additional

Lahn gold thread and a leaf-shaped application

of silver tinsel thread (Fig. 6) provide clues to the

Wealth of their former owners.

Figure 4: Fragment

one

Straw hat

Figure 5: Nestelband

Figure 6: Application of silver tinsel thread

Figure 7: Fragment of a tapestry? Silk

--

Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org