boots-msg - 9/13/00

Period boots and SCA imitations.

NOTE: See also the files: shoes-msg, p-shoes-msg, shoemaking-msg, leather-msg 
lea-tanning-msg, leather-dyeing-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have 
collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date 
back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These 
files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with 
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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: BJECT:Boots (and other nifty stuff too)
From:   :890045c at falcon.acadiau.ca
Date: Wed,  6 Jul 94 23:54:00 -0500
Organization: -=-  Compu-Data * Turnersville, NJ  -=-

FC>I'm looking for knee-ish high, soft leather boots.
FC>(and sure, other nifty SCAish leather things too)

FC>Where might I buy such things for a reasonable price?

   Those with cash, good luck in your hunting. I was offered a pair of 
period fencing boots, handmade to my feet, for $350 by Colwyn Cobbler of the 
Shire of Iron Bog, Kingdom of the East.
   I am sure he would have done a wonderful job. But as a beginning fencer 
who had just spent $200 on fabric and patterns to transform it into a proper 
cover for my 3-weapon jacket (seems Cosimo diMedici and I shared many 
similar measurements) I decided to hold off a year and use the $25 books I 
got from the Deutche Demochratache Republic Going out of Business sale.
   Available from several surplus dealers, they are a wonderous starting 
fencer's boot - but warning - you will find yourself adding gel-pad inner 
soles and moleskin, etc to avoid blisters.
                                   Aleksandr the Traveler
                                    [david.razler at compudata.com]


From: rhiannon5 at aol.com (Rhiannon5)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie in search of garb
Date: 29 Aug 1994 14:34:04 -0400

millsbn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills) writes:
::I was just today perusing the catalogue of U.S. Calvary, and they had 
::listed "Russian Officer's Boots", which they said would be acceptable for 
::Civil War re-enactment groups (their claim).  I beleive they listed at 
::$59 (US).  Knee high, black leather, look good in the photo.  
::Unfortunately, I don't have the address info handy

I was able to get german miltary boots ( Knee high black leather ) for
$19.00 for mens and $15.00 for women, from a catalog call The Sportsman's
Guide.  I don't have the address or any other information.  The boots are
very nice and all leather with rubber soles.  The only problem is they do
tend to squeaky, so plan to break them in a lot.  The catalog is really
hunting oriented (and a little offensive) but if you can find it the deals
are worth it.

Rhiannon ne Brennen


From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie in search of garb
Date: 30 Aug 1994 17:01:59 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

East German boots: I do like these; I wore my pair in the mud at Pennsic, 
and remained dry and sure of foot. They are not really authentic, but
they look reasonable. And they are very cheap. However, unless you have 
very thin calves, you will need to open up the back seam at the top of the
shaft to get enough room for your leg. 

I get 'em through Sportsmen's Guide: 1-800-888-5222 for customer service, or
write at 411 Farwell Ave., So. St. Paul, MN 55075-0239. They're $18 plus
shipping, a very good price for a leather boot. 

Speed and quality of service are about average. The text of the catalog is 
a bit over the top at times, but not too bad. 

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer)
Subject: CRAFTS: Leather Boots
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 23:14:15 GMT

I want to make historically accurate leather boots in a style that
would be appropriate for an Italian man in the late 1400's

The artist Sandro Botticelli lived from about 1445 to 1510 CE, so 
I am assuming that the boots shown in his paintings are appropriate 
for that time period. I have decided to base my first attempt on 
boots shown in Botticelli's series of paintings "The Story of 
Nastagio delgi Onesti" First, Second, and Third Episodes (at Prado, 
Madrid).  (Found in Gramercy Great Masters "Botticelli" ISBN
0-517-10100-9 copyright 1994)

I chose these paintings because there are several people pictured 
wearing identical boots, we see the boots from all sides, and the 
paintings are detailed enough that they show the seams where the 
leather was stitched together.  

I have purchased Tandy's "Apache Boot" (?) pattern to get 
instructions on how to construct boots, and a basic pattern to work 
from.  I have started cutting pieces of scrap muslin and sewing them 
together in an attempt to work out an accurate pattern, but I have some 
questions that I cannot answer from studying the paintings.

What type of leather is appropriate?  These are soft boots, and seem 
almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear.  They are 
light tan in color with black cuffs.  The main part of the boot appears 
to be smooth and the cuffs look like suede to me.  Should I use oil or 
vegetable tanned leather?  Is suede Period?

The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps, 
buttons or lacings.  They are also shown to be rather close-fitting 
around the ankle.  How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and 
still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or 
something?  

Any help would be appreciated.
---
Justin Silvanus
Barony of Nordskogen, Principality of Northshield, Middle Kingdom

Steve Mercer
steve.mercer at network.com


From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots
Date: 15 Oct 1994 23:15:38 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

steve.mercer at network.com (Steve E. Mercer) writes:
|> I have purchased Tandy's "Apache Boot" (?) pattern to get 
|> instructions on how to construct boots, and a basic pattern to work 
|> from.  I have started cutting pieces of scrap muslin and sewing them 
|> together in an attempt to work out an accurate pattern, but I have some 
|> questions that I cannot answer from studying the paintings.

Although I don't know for certain, I think the 'Apache Boot' pattern is for
a 'mocassin' style boot (ie. there is no 'sole' as such).
A better choice would have been the 'Plains Indian' Boot pattern, which
is a type of turn shoe.  You can use this pattern to come up with patterns
for a shoe that will fit your foot, and then cut and paste the pattern so
the seems end up where you want them.  I use this pattern to make a number
of early period shoe styles.

|> What type of leather is appropriate?  These are soft boots, and seem 
|> almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear.  They are 
|> light tan in color with black cuffs.

Of the three main types of leather available in the middle ages (ignoring
for the present the substancial overlaps), alum tawed skins would have been
used for shoes intended for indoor/fair weather use.  It would not have been
a good choice for shoes that were going to get wet alot.  Alum tawed skins
are not commonly available today, and when available, they tend to be expensive
(used in conservation bookbinding).

Veg-tanned leather is a likely candidate, but fine, supple vegetable tanned 
leathers are not easy to find.  Most veg-tann is made for tooling, belts,
shoe soles, saddles, etc., and so is manufactured in such a way that it is
fairly firm.  If you look around, you might find something flexible enough
that you can make this sort of boot.

As mentioned in some earlier postings in another thread, real oil-tanned
leather is not the same as what is commonly marketted as 'oil-tanned'
leather today.  Chamois is an oil-tanned leather.  Not a great choice for
shoes (IMO).

While the desire to use the most appropriate leather is admirable, I'm not
sure that it is entirely possible, short of researching period leather tanning
methods and making the leather yourself.

My own inclination would be to make a substitution.  I'd use a soft, full-grain,
chrome tanned leather.  

|> The main part of the boot appears 
|> to be smooth and the cuffs look like suede to me.  Should I use oil or 
|> vegetable tanned leather?  Is suede Period?

Perhaps the 'cuffs' are just the upper part of the boot turned down (and dyed
black).  The light tan colour suggests veg-tann, but alum-tawed skin can
be dyed to pretty much any colour desired.  I believe that someone posted
a reference once indicating that suede was period, but I'm not sure that
it would have been regarded as a good choice for shoes.  Buff leather would
look pretty much like suede, and should be a light tan colour.  I don't know
enough about it to be able to say whether it would be suitable for shoes,
but given that it is an oil-tanned leather, I suspect it would be like a
heavy chamois.

|> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps, 
|> buttons or lacings.  They are also shown to be rather close-fitting 
|> around the ankle.  How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and 
|> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or 
|> something?  

If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to have
a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right.  Perhaps
Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately.  I don't know enough about footwear
from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.
 
Cheers, Balderik


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots.
Date: 16 Oct 1994 16:56:28 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

OK, NOW I'm angry.

It has just become painfully clear that my Newsreader doesn't receive all
the Rialto, since I haven't seen the message to which Balderik was
replying and had to write to Cariadoc for a copy of his test results.

>Although I don't know for certain, I think the 'Apache Boot' pattern is for
>a 'mocassin' style boot (ie. there is no 'sole' as such).
>A better choice would have been the 'Plains Indian' Boot pattern, which
>is a type of turn shoe.  You can use this pattern to come up with patterns
>for a shoe that will fit your foot, and then cut and paste the pattern so
>the seems end up where you want them.  I use this pattern to make a number
>of early period shoe styles.

Unfortunately, I have not actually *seen* the directions for the "plains
boots", but having seen the results of them on people's feet, I would like
to point out that they don't really look like any of the pictures we have
from period for boots (I know, like that *really* matters... :) ).

I have some personal problems with seeing 12th century "Normans" and "Welsh"
in Mocassins, as well, but that's a whole other thread.  Perhaps, though,
before we give him a blanket suggestion for what to do with his pattern,
we might take a look at what he's aiming for (ie., what's he supposed to
be?).

|> What type of leather is appropriate?  These are soft boots, and seem 
|> almost like leather stockings rather than protctive footwear.  They are 
|> light tan in color with black cuffs.
>Of the three main types of leather available in the middle ages (ignoring
>for the present the substancial overlaps), alum tawed skins would have been
>used for shoes intended for indoor/fair weather use....
>Veg-tanned leather is a likely candidate, but fine, supple vegetable tanned 
>leathers are not easy to find.  Most veg-tann is made for tooling, belts,
>shoe soles, saddles, etc....

The pair I am wearing at the moment is made from a belly strip, and is both
very thick and supple (I'm breaking them in so they won't look "new") and
is of 8-10 oz cowhide.  The soles (which are NOT of the same piece of leather,
but were originally 8-10 oz cowhide (Two layers sewn together and compressed)
are firm enough to turn broken glass with a rather hefty person standing in
them.

>My own inclination would be to make a substitution.  I'd use a soft, full 
grain,
>chrome tanned leather.  

Not to dispute you, Balderik, but it should easily be possible to find a 
low weight, flexible vegitable tanned cow or calf skin.  My first pair
of early shoes were of veg-tan Pig skin, and while I wan't enthusiastic about
the resulting shoes, they actually came out just fine.

|> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps, 
|> buttons or lacings.  They are also shown to be rather close-fitting 
|> around the ankle.  How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and 
|> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or 
|> something?  
>If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to have
>a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right.  Perhaps
>Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately.  I don't know enough about footwear
>from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.

Actually it's a good question, and one that has been weighing heavy on my
mind of late.    OTOH, I have a pair of work boots that are rather close
fitting around the ankle, are not made of a particularly "stretchy" leather,
and I can get my foot into it with a minimal amount of trouble.

A simple scholar,

	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
	Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
	(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: CRAFTS: Leather Boots.
Date: 17 Oct 1994 14:40:23 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <941016165646.2360ab03 at vax2.utulsa.edu>, IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu 
(I. Marc Carlson) writes:

|> Unfortunately, I have not actually *seen* the directions for the "plains
|> boots", but having seen the results of them on people's feet, I would like
|> to point out that they don't really look like any of the pictures we have
|> from period for boots (I know, like that *really* matters... :) ).

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear.  If you make the 'Plains Indian' boot, as
specified in the pattern, it won't look that much like most medieval shoes.
However, since it is a turn shoe, it has alot in common *conceptually* with
the European turn-shoes.  In this respect, it may be a better starting point
than a mocassin-type pattern, which would be conceptually different.
Personally, I think I would have problems taking a shoe pattern from a book,
and enlarging it to the correct size for a particular person's foot.  By 
using the tandy pattern, I can get an idea of the proportions needed for a
particular person's foot, and then modify this pattern into something that
matches how the European shoe was cut.  I've used this method chiefly for
earlier period turn shoes (Viking style with seam down the center of the
vamp and with seam at instep).  I've helped someone else make patterns for
poulains using the same basic method.  What I'm trying to say is that the
commercial patterns are handy for those who have trouble coming up with
the basic proportions based on a sketch/photo of the patterns in a book.
From this point, naturally, the patterns have to be altered to match the
shape/configuration of the shoe being made.

|> I have some personal problems with seeing 12th century "Normans" and "Welsh"
|> in Mocassins, as well, but that's a whole other thread.  Perhaps, though,
|> before we give him a blanket suggestion for what to do with his pattern,
|> we might take a look at what he's aiming for (ie., what's he supposed to
|> be?).

Well, he seems to be indicating that he wants to make a late 15th century
Italian boot.  I assumed that this is because this would be appropriate for
his persona.  Although using the boot patterns is less useful for this period
than for earlier period shoes, starting with a turn shoe should be better
than starting with a mocassin.

|> The pair I am wearing at the moment is made from a belly strip, and is both
|> very thick and supple (I'm breaking them in so they won't look "new") and
|> is of 8-10 oz cowhide.  The soles (which are NOT of the same piece of 
leather,
|> but were originally 8-10 oz cowhide (Two layers sewn together and compressed)
|> are firm enough to turn broken glass with a rather hefty person standing in
|> them.
|> 
|> >My own inclination would be to make a substitution.  I'd use a soft, full-
grain,
|> >chrome tanned leather.  
|> 
|> Not to dispute you, Balderik, but it should easily be possible to find a 
|> low weight, flexible vegitable tanned cow or calf skin.  My first pair
|> of early shoes were of veg-tan Pig skin, and while I wan't enthusiastic about
|> the resulting shoes, they actually came out just fine.

Well, I should have prefaced my comments with something like 'In our area'.
We don't see alot of soft flexible veg-tann around here.  I wish we did.
I've seen the thin veg-tan Pig Skin exactly once, in a leather wholesalers
warehouse.  I was forgetting that people in other areas might be more fortunate.
I was trying to emphasize the fact that veg-tann need not be as stiff as what
is commonly available, but supple veg-tann may be hard to find, depending where
you are.
By all means, if a suitable veg-tann is available, it should be used.  I was
simply trying to avoid sending someone off on a wild goose chase.

|> |> The paintings clearly show that these boots have no ties, clasps, 
|> |> buttons or lacings.  They are also shown to be rather close-fitting 
|> |> around the ankle.  How can I make boots that can fit over my heel and 
|> |> still fit closely to my ankle without having lacing or buttons or 
|> |> something?  
|> >If this is indeed how they were made, the leather would probably need to 
have
|> >a bit of stretch in it, and the fit would have to be just right.  Perhaps
|> >Botticelli wasn't painting 100% accurately.  I don't know enough about 
footwear
|> >from Italy during this period to be able to comment further.
|> 
|> Actually it's a good question, and one that has been weighing heavy on my
|> mind of late.    OTOH, I have a pair of work boots that are rather close
|> fitting around the ankle, are not made of a particularly "stretchy" leather,
|> and I can get my foot into it with a minimal amount of trouble.

Well, alot depends on what the original poster meant by 'close-fitting'.
Regular cowboy boots have no ties, clasps or laces, and people get them
on their feet just fine.  Are they as 'close-fitting' as the referenced
boots in the painting?  I haven't seen the painting, and don't know enough
about shoes from that period to comment on that aspect.

Cheers, Balderik/Rick


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: CRAFTS: Period Shoes
Date: 18 Oct 1994 14:38:16 -0500

>cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
>However, since it is a turn shoe, it has alot in common *conceptually* with
>the European turn-shoes.  In this respect, it may be a better starting point
>than a mocassin-type pattern, which would be conceptually different.
>Personally, I think I would have problems taking a shoe pattern from a book,
>and enlarging it to the correct size for a particular person's foot.  By 
>using the tandy pattern, I can get an idea of the proportions needed for a
>particular person's foot, and then modify this pattern into something that
>matches how the European shoe was cut.  I've used this method chiefly for
>earlier period turn shoes (Viking style with seam down the center of the
>vamp and with seam at instep).....

Errr, I'm not certain that this was *originally* a turn-shoe, which, for those
who have entered this conversation late, refers to those shoes that were sewn
inside out and then "turned" rightside out.  Most of the early period shoes that
I've seen that have the Vamp seam (or a seam running over the top of the shoe,
down the centerline) were sewn from the outside.

Turn shoes come about when you start sewing a sole to the upper, and your 
mentioning of Poulaines (or long toed shoes) leads me to suspect that this
is what you meant by the "seam ot the instep".

>Well, he seems to be indicating that he wants to make a late 15th century
>Italian boot.  I assumed that this is because this would be appropriate for
>his persona.  Although using the boot patterns is less useful for this period
>than for earlier period shoes, starting with a turn shoe should be better
>than starting with a mocassin.

In this case, you are correct.  I'm unaware of all the evidence regarding
15th century Italy, however, in England there seems to be little archeological
evidence of "Boots" other than the ankle boots that seem to predominate.
However, "Boots" that were robust enough to stand up by themselves and offering
protection to the ankles and legs, do not seem to make an appearance prior
to the 1550s.

>Well, I should have prefaced my comments with something like 'In our area'.
>We don't see alot of soft flexible veg-tann around here.  I wish we did.
>I've seen the thin veg-tan Pig Skin exactly once, in a leather wholesalers
>warehouse.  I was forgetting that people in other areas might be more 
fortunate.
>I was trying to emphasize the fact that veg-tann need not be as stiff as what
>is commonly available, but supple veg-tann may be hard to find, depending where
>you are.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be presumptuous (or rather, should that be
"assumptuous" :) ), and I forget that not areas have equal availability of
leather.   OTOH, with my wife's hardened boots, I've been beating them 
soft with a big stick :)

>Well, alot depends on what the original poster meant by 'close-fitting'.
>Regular cowboy boots have no ties, clasps or laces, and people get them
>on their feet just fine.  Are they as 'close-fitting' as the referenced
>boots in the painting?  I haven't seen the painting, and don't know enough
>about shoes from that period to comment on that aspect.

I'll have to take a look at late 1400s paintings to see...

A simple scholar,
	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
	Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
	(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Crafts: Boots and Shoes
Date: 17 Nov 1994 10:05:15 -0600

<nsalzma1 at cc.swarthmore.edu (Noah Salzman)>
>If anyone has any idea on where I can get a pattern for knee high boots, I
>would really apreciate it.  I also could use any kind of patterns for
>medieval footwear in general, and advice on what kinds of leather to use
>and how to treat it so it will last.

It depends on whether you want boots that are "Bad Hollywood Medieval",
"Hollywood Medieval", "Based on Period Designs".  The other choice is
"A Faithful Reproduction of a Period Original" is not available since
I do not believe there are any known extant examples of period boots, other than
"half-boots".

If the first will satisfy you, go to Tandy or Museum Replicas.  They'll be
happy to help you.  You can also mess about with Mundane boots and make them
"look more medieval" (BTW, I am not being critical of any of these choices,
merely looking at it from a perspective of periodicity.  Heck, I've done the
Bad Hollywood Medieval myself when I needed to).

For mere "Hollywood Medieval" try finding a pair of low heeled boots.

For "Based on Period Designs" you are going to have to do research.  Decide
on where and when you want your design to be from.  As I mentioned, there are
no period patterns currently available for BOOTs, but there are a number of
sources for shoes.

Foremost among these is a handy book called "Shoes and Pattens" by Francis
Grew and Margrethe de Neergaarde (London: HMSO, 1988) from the series *Medieval
finds from excavations in London*.  However, it only covers up to about 
1450/1500.

There is another, whose title escapes me, which discusses simple shoes and
moccasins from the more Nordic lands.

As for what leather to use, I'd suggest that for your first try, you start
with a 5mm or so vegetable Tanned cowhide, although you can used just about 
anything.

A simple scholar,

	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
	University of Northkeep
	Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
	(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots
Date: 31 Jan 1995 08:50:51 -0600

This was inadvertantly sent to me rather than the Rialto, and at the
author's request am forwarding it ...

Diarmuit
==============================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 01:11:15 -0800
From: cheval at ix.netcom.com (Jay Hoffman)
Subject: re: Costuming and Boots

Good Diarmuit,

>Just to mention it, I've NEVER used lasts when making shoes, even with 
>vegetable tanned leather.

The vast majority of shoes and boots made in western Europe after the twelfth 
century were assembled over a wooden form, or 'last'.  Evidence indicates that 
lasts were used as early as the ninth century.  Any discussion on cordwaining (a 
term coined after lasts were introduced) would be incomplete without considering 
this construction method.

>Multiple layers.  Many people will saok the leather and beat it flat before
>attaching them to the shoe, to give the sole maximum compression.  Others
>sew the uncompressed leather in place, and let the normal use patterns
>shape the sole.  It's your call.

All vegetable tanned leather available commercially (i.e., Tandy et al) has been 
rolled and compressed.  Additional compression through malleting comprimises the 
quality of the fibers of the individual layer.  You will probably achieve better 
results by using skirting-weight leather and cutting your soles from the 'back' 
edge of the hide (as opposed to the 'belly' edge).  

While layering can be used in repairs (clump soles) and as pattens (Geoffrey 
has used such a design for several years), I have found no evidence of layered 
soles in a turn-shoe.  If you have such documentation, I would be very excited 
to see it.

>N.B. A few years ago, when duplicating the "arrow spacers" from the _Mary
>Rose_, my Tandy agent (Note to Balderik: It's the boot patterns, not the
>Company, I have trouble with) sold me a bit of leather that was machine
>compressed and half an inch thick, and was *specifically* for soles.
>
>Unfortunately, my Tandy store recently changed managers and when I asked
>the new one about it, he looked like I was insane.  So, keep your eyes
>open.

If you have the good fortune of being able to work directly with a tannery, you 
might be able to ask them to roll a particular hide for you for greater 
compression.  I was lucky enough to have the process demonstrated for me by a 
friendly rep at Western Leather in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  You will probably 
discover, however, that purchasing their standard hides (actually cut into 
uniform sheets, measured in the more archaic 'irons', and priced at a premium), 
will satisfy any soling requirements you might have.  

>>Yeah, this is the bible for shoemakers.  It includes sections on the
>><stitching and construction techniques, as well as patterns from roughly
>>the 12th c. through the mid 15th c.

>Note that the "Boots" in this book are strictly speaking "Ankle Boots"
>or "Half Boots", although if you can figure a way to attach a "legging"
>to them, it's a great place to start.

Plate No. 35 on page 24 depicts a side-lacing mid-calf boot dated late 13th/mid 
14th C.  Similar designs from the fifteenth C. are illustrated on page 42.

Yours in service and shoemaking,
Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom


From: David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming and boots
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:20:59 -0800

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, David E. White wrote:
> : >From what little research I've done, there have been few finds of 'boots'
> : >from this period in western Europe. 
> 
> : I think the technical term is "Zippo", "Nada", "Rien"...
> 
> I saw a picture of a pair of originals from the 11th century in a book on 
> the history of shoemaking written in Norwiegen.  Lots of contemporary 
> illustrations though.

If this is the book by Margeret Held (sp?) I believe that most of the 
boots were ankle or mid calf high.  The only evidence I have found so far 
of knee high or thigh high boots are illuminations and tapestries.

 > > :      
/-upper-\ > :     |         |
> :      ==_____==   With the Seam on the Inside.  This is done by sewing
> :                  the shoe inside out, then turning soaking it in water
> :                  and turning it rightside out.  This is what is known
> :                  as a "Turn Show" (I *know* that Balderik knows this)
> 
> Ever tried making a long pointed shoe in this fasion?  Imposible.  Any 
> hints on how to sew the sole on turn shoe fashion without turning the 
> shoe inside out?

Not immpossible, hard but not immpossible.  You can make a long pointed 
shoe in this fashion.  I have made several pairs of pointed toe boots and 
shoes one pair with a good six inch poulaine (pointy toe).  The trick 
that I use is to leave the toe for after the shoe is turned.  Once 
turned, use a curved needle and stitch the toe down going in through the 
edge of the sole out through the top (the part that the foot rests on) 
and then through the vamp.  It's a pain but can be done.

Sir Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
(David Moore, Milwaukee, WI)


From: David Moore <david at spider.lloyd.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming and boots
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:20:59 -0800
Organization: Lloyd Internetworking

On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, David E. White wrote:
> : >From what little research I've done, there have been few finds of 'boots'
> : >from this period in western Europe. 
> 
> : I think the technical term is "Zippo", "Nada", "Rien"...
> 
> I saw a picture of a pair of originals from the 11th century in a book on 
> the history of shoemaking written in Norwiegen.  Lots of contemporary 
> illustrations though.

If this is the book by Margeret Held (sp?) I believe that most of the 
boots were ankle or mid calf high.  The only evidence I have found so far 
of knee high or thigh high boots are illuminations and tapestries.

 > > :      
/-upper-\ > :     |         |
> :      ==_____==   With the Seam on the Inside.  This is done by sewing
> :                  the shoe inside out, then turning soaking it in water
> :                  and turning it rightside out.  This is what is known
> :                  as a "Turn Show" (I *know* that Balderik knows this)
> 
> Ever tried making a long pointed shoe in this fasion?  Imposible.  Any 
> hints on how to sew the sole on turn shoe fashion without turning the 
> shoe inside out?

Not immpossible, hard but not immpossible.  You can make a long pointed 
shoe in this fashion.  I have made several pairs of pointed toe boots and 
shoes one pair with a good six inch poulaine (pointy toe).  The trick 
that I use is to leave the toe for after the shoe is turned.  Once 
turned, use a curved needle and stitch the toe down going in through the 
edge of the sole out through the top (the part that the foot rests on) 
and then through the vamp.  It's a pain but can be done.

Sir Dafydd ap Gwalchmai
(David Moore, Milwaukee, WI)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jennyb at warthog (Jennifer Bray)
Subject: Re: Period footwear...
Organization: 3Com (Europe) Ltd
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:41:26 GMT

>Actually, my persona is a 12th century Norman mercenary/forester (still
>working on things).  What I was thinking of is some sort of soft calf-
>high boots, or something along the same lines.

The closest I've got to that is some 11th century boot patterns from
Hedeby in Denmark, these come up to mid-calf & are fastened by a row
of leather roll buttons that button into triangular flaps along the side
of the boot.

The patterns come from "die lederfunde aus Haithabu" I believe the
author was Willy Groenman Van-Waateringe but I may have got that
wrong as I'm going from memory.

I have made up these boots successfully in a couple of sizes, but don't
have the patterns scaled to as many sizes as the plainer shoes.

Incidentally I've bought some hob nails to add to my next pair of
boots so I can get some grip on wet grass. I was fine when it was
just me, but we got a wolfhound who is an absolute coward & runs
away from crowds, if I'm wearing leather soled boots she can pull
me over on wet grass. Anyone out there tried hobnails & if so have
you got any advice on their use?

Jennifer/Rannveik
email:- jennyb.pdd.3com.com


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Period Footwear...
Date: 11 Apr 1995 09:22:34 -0500

<jennyb at warthog (Jennifer Bray)>
>>Actually, my persona is a 12th century Norman mercenary/forester (still
>>working on things).  What I was thinking of is some sort of soft calf-
>>high boots, or something along the same lines.
>The closest I've got to that is some 11th century boot patterns from
>Hedeby in Denmark, these come up to mid-calf & are fastened by a row
>of leather roll buttons that button into triangular flaps along the side
>of the boot.

Shoes and Pattens refers to illustrations of lace up boots.  In any
case, the boots for a 12th century Mercenary/forester should be just
a straight turned shoe with a single layered sole (I believe).

>The patterns come from "die lederfunde aus Haithabu" I believe the
>author was Willy Groenman Van-Waateringe but I may have got that
>wrong as I'm going from memory.

The more I look at this topic the deeper it gets.

>...Anyone out there tried hobnails & if so have you got any advice on their
>use? 

Not as yet, but you may try to track down any Roman re-enactors, since I'm
under the impression that they use hobnailled sandles.

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: brithyla at aol.com (BriThyla)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Leather boots - patterns anyone?
Date: 17 Feb 1996 06:55:03 -0500

If you don't mind the minimal doctoring necessary to make them absolutely
period or are willing to put up with boots that look VERY close to period,
try Missouri River Patterns 'Plains Style Hi top moccasins' pattern. If
you leave off the side flap decoration they should fit your needs. Unlike
most of the straight Tandy Leather patterns, these actually use a period
construction technique. I think Tandy Leather even carries this brand of
pattern. The pattern also includes some VERY helpful construction tips.

Hope this was of some help.
Brian Broadaxe


From: shand at ssg.com.au (Steve Hand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Searching for Boots
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:16:30 +1000
Organization: Strategic Studies Group

steinen at atl.mindspring.com wrote:
>I am looking for a pair of "cavalier" boots, the kind that turn down
>at the top (as seen in any of musketeer movies).  If anyone can point
>me at a source for boots like this I would be very grateful.  
>
>Thomas of Brailsford
>(Bill Steinen)

The best source of authentic bucket top or cup top boots is Bjarni's Boots
(prop.Mark Beaby). Unit 8 Hebble End Works, Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire,
HX7 6HJ United Kingdom. 

Mark has just been made master craftsman in leather to the new Royal
Armouries at Leeds. His boots and shoes are expensive but made using the
same methods as originals and made to last a lifetime. A friend who has a
pair of Norman shoes made by Mark says that they're the most comfortable
pair of shoes he's ever owned. My bucket tops have yet to arrive.

Steve Hand
Editor In Chief, Run 5 Magazine
Strategic Studies Group
http://www.ssg.com.au


From: greeder at concentric.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Searching for Boots
Date: 9 Jul 1996 02:45:29 GMT

steinen at atl.mindspring.com (The Elf Tree) writes:
>I am looking for a pair of "cavalier" boots, the kind that turn down
>at the top (as seen in any of musketeer movies).  If anyone can point
>me at a source for boots like this I would be very grateful.  
>
>Thomas of Brailsford
>(Bill Steinen)

You already have one reply to your post...
.. But let me add my $0.02 worth.
First. I know several people who have made their
own cavilier boots by cutting the tops off a pair of
modern boots and then sewing on a new cavilier top.

That was too much work for me so I took the cheap
shortcut.  I already had a pair of 'ropers' (cowboy boots).
So I made a cavilier cuff and glued it over the top of
them.  Looks ok from a distance.


From: Otter <csm at angel-mask.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Thigh high boots
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:10:10 -0400

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

I have need for thigh high leather boots, similar in appearance to 
those frequently used by theatrical pirates and/or musketeers.
I am a rather large male, 6'3" at 240lbs, and finding something
pre-made for my size is a bit difficult. 

Would I be better off constructing boot tops to wear above regular
boots, or is there an outlet for such an item?

Many thanks for any pointers that anyone may have!


From: ek at zianet.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thigh high boots
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:33:32 -0600

If you are willing to spend big bucks Museum Replicas has several
diffferent pairs in their most recent catalog.  Prices run arround 200
dollars.  They look good though.
Fearghus


From: panders2 at ub.d.umn.edu (patrick anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thigh high boots
Date: 21 Apr 1997 01:32:15 -0500
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth

<ek at zianet.com> wrote:
>If you are willing to spend big bucks Museum Replicas has several
>diffferent pairs in their most recent catalog.  Prices run arround 200
>dollars.  They look good though.
>Fearghus

I spent the money and bought myself a pair of the black thigh high ones.
After realizing that they were responsible for the black stains on my
carpet, I promptly returned them. Not really sure of their quality.

pat


From: Blues <Blues at mail.ic.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thigh high boots
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:40:49 -0400

Otter wrote:
> Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
> 
> I have need for thigh high leather boots, similar in appearance to
> those frequently used by theatrical pirates and/or musketeers.
> I am a rather large male, 6'3" at 240lbs, and finding something
> pre-made for my size is a bit difficult.
> 
> Would I be better off constructing boot tops to wear above regular
> boots, or is there an outlet for such an item?
> 
> Many thanks for any pointers that anyone may have!

When I had this same need, I bought a pair of boots, removed the uppers,
made patterns for thigh-length uppers, bought a side of garment leather
(not as expensive as I thought it would be, and a half-side would have
done the job; take youyr patterns with you when you buy the leather),
cut out the pieces for the new uppers and being short on time took the
whole thing to a shoe repair shop to be sewn together. Total price for
materials and hired labor, $210.00 (1991 or 92). Not including $40 worth
of unrelated orthopedic modification.

Photo of me in these same boots is at the Incipient Shire of Talonvale's
Photo Gallery at: http://ic.net/~blues/tv_galry.htm

Gunnbjorn Gunnarsson


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thigh high boots
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 09:36:42 EDT

BetNoir <betnoir at earthlink.net> writes:
> patrick anderson wrote:
> > Bald Mountain Boots??? Where might I find them, have they a web page? More
> > information PLEASE!
> 
> Errmmm...I will have to dig.  They are a staple at the Southern and
> Northern California Renaissance Faires, and possibly on other Faire
> circuits as well.
> 
> One caveat...they are NOT CHEAP.  They custom-fit the boot for each
> person.  A friend got a knee-high pair with Irish pennies as buttons,
> and they probably cost her about $400.  But, like I said, for that kinda
> money, you KNOW you are getting quality stuff.
> 
> Tiana di Redondo

        Respected friend:
        Another caveat: the boots that button up the sides, so popular 
with renfairfolk, are _Not_ copies of any known pre-17th century
Western European footwear. If you're trying to do Renfair, they'll go
over like a house afire there. If you're trying to find something
historically accurate, keep searching.
        (You could order the shoe catalogue from Amazon Pickling works
and drygoods emporium. Not even vaguely cheap- right up there with
the above button-boots- but at least they're very, very close to
the actual historic originals.)

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.


From: skeyes at tiac.net (Scott Keyes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thigh high boots
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:21:55 GMT
Organization: QCE Solutions

The WINNING strategy here seem to be to find a GOOD pair of pull on boots
and a willing shoe repair place to extend them. This worked well enough for
me, that I've been using mine for about...11+ years now.

If you cant find a shoe repair place willing you could find a SCAdian who
does leather  work show them the boots and  what you want. You could also
take up the project yourself. it only involves a fairly small bit of skill,
imagination and tools... If you dont sew, consider having someone who does
help you with the pattern. its almost as simple as cutting a rectangle of
leather and sewing it into a cylinder, but at some point you'll want a
little more shape out of it than that. you may want it to show of your
calves, or add a touch of wing to the knee... mine are pretty much simple a
simple square of leather sewn around the top of some old (realy old as in
'they dont make em that good anymore') motorcycle racing boots.
remember to leave them open behind the knee...


Subject: Boots and Shoes
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 11:52:08 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: Merryrose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Since someone asked for information on boots:

For those truehearts who wish to make their own -

The premier site for make your own medieval shoes is:
Footwear of the Middle Ages by I. Marc Carlson,
  http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM
  (For the Mongols there is a plan for Mongol boots.)

Marc also contributes to Leather Crafter's Corner:
  http://web0.tiac.net/users/hollyoak/lthcraft.htm

(Both the above are reachable from http://www.sca.org/ .
 The stockclerk also sells some patterns for shoes.)

Then there is Paul Lalonde's Burgundian Court Shoes:
  http://www.loonie.net/~plalonde/World/SCA/shoe.html

Regia Angolrum's page on Medieval Leatherworking:
  http://www.ftech.net/~regia/leatwork.htm

Costume Designs Footwear page for the Renn boot how to's is
  not really medieval, but tastes vary... (read his ethics page).
  http://www.uit.net/wmorris/costume/footwear/footwear_index.html

Some opinion and references on Scottish and Irish shoes at:
  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/shoes.html

Basic Viking Footwear at:
  http://www.spoon.demon.co.uk/vikes/vikshoe.htm

..................................................
For those who wish to buy -

  Shoes and Boots from Historic Enterprises (Swan and Lion):
  http://www.historicenterprises.com/swanlion/Swan_index.html
  http://www.historicenterprises.com/arms_and_armor/shoes_and_boots.html

  Museum Replicas sells shoes and Boots that aren't too bad:
  http://www.museumreplicas.com/

  Then there is Chivalry Sports, also not too bad:
  http://www.renstore.com/index.shtml

  (Above are fairly good. Christian Fletcher Armory was selling Medieval
  Turnshoes, but not in the current catalog.)

  For those in cold climates, Mystic Caravan's Aussie Dogs sheepskin
  boots and shoes: http://frognet.net/mystic-caravan/Aussie1.htm
  They have a fairly primitive look to them. I think L. L. Bean sells
  them too in season.

  Minnetonka sells what they term Renaissance Boots:
  http://www.minnetonka-by-mail.com/
  Many folks buy these reasonably priced boots. Not really period but...

  Tandy Leather: http://www.tandyleather.com/ has plans and supplies
  for moccasin styles and leather.
.....................................................................
*(Before the Authenticity Police (TM) come after me, I do not endorse
  the Renn Boot styles but tastes vary. Anyway, I have the
  MoLondon book, MoDenmark book, and others on real period shoes.
  I'd like to see them walk Pennsic in one thin layered sole.) ;8^P

  Catskill Mountain Mocassins for really outrageous Renn Boots:
  http://www.catskill-moc.com/

  Some of the Dream Shoes from Bald Mountain Moccasins are not too
  far OOP looks, but with thick soles: http://www.dreamshoes.com/
  I would think that some of these might be good for Pennsic rocks.

  And more outrageously styled Renn Boots from those folks:
  http://pw1.netcom.com/~majormic/baldmtn.html

  Put on your dark glasses for these Renn Boots:
  http://www.sodhoppers.com/moccasin.htm
.....................................................................

International Internet Leatherworkers Guild pages: http://iilg.org/
for general Leather Information.

This was written for the webenabled to find sources, especially the
newbies.

M. Magnus Malleus, Atlantia and the GDHorde
Permission granted to repost within the SCA, (but OFF the Rialto).


Subject: ANST - Boots
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 99 08:10:46 MST
From: ches at io.com
To: SCA Ansteorra List <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
CC: Wetlands Mailing list <wetlands-l at swiftmessage.com>

I just found another source for boots that are inexpensive. They are
riding boots with extra wide calf widths ranging from 68.00 to 149.00.
http://gprix.com/rbdir.htm

F. Havas
ches at io.com

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	boots-msg	20