squires-msg - 10/16/05 Comments on SCA and period squires. NOTE: See also the files: knighthood-msg, chivalry-msg, Chivalry-art, fealty-msg, fealty-art, armor-msg, chainmail-msg, 2Squire-r-Not-art, Fealty-n-t-SCA-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: AANDREWS at cc.weber.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Digest V7 #15 Date: 7 Jan 1994 12:57:14 -0500 Greetings unto all from Lord Guillaume, Squire of Irontree Gwydion asked several things as to what being a sqire means and I feel that I must respond as follows: Every Knight in choosing a sqire does so for a different reason. I have seen knights who see the number of red belts attached to them as a symbol of status and power (In my early days of the SCA I was approached by such a knight but I strongly feel that a sqire should at least have armor and fighting before they accept a belt, even my personal man-at-arms has asked that he finishes his armor before we make his belt.) Other Knights choose aspiring fighters whom the Knight feels he(she) could help guide in both fighting and in the courtly graces (including dancing if they so desire) Every squire has a different reason for putting on the red belt of a Knight. I choose to become a sqire to Sir Seionin Irontree because he is my friend. He has helped me learn a lot about myself, both in SCA and in mundanity, he has been a teacher, friend, student(yes, I have taught him on occasion) and in general what I would expect out of a Knight in period. Each of my sqire brothers have come to Our Knight along different paths and we each have different goals. When Sir Seionin was a squire, the head sqire only desired to serve their Knight and did not wish anything further from being a squire. I am very saddened when I hear of individuals taking a red belt because they see it as a means to further themselves politically, as a tool to hold over lesser fighters ("You must fight this way because in Shire BFAtneveldt Im the Sqire and I know More" observed at a fighter practice many years ago) I take my status as a Sqire very seriously, my friends may not think so with they way I and my Knight joke and kid around, but I do. As an Irontree I serve the Prince of Artemesia and the King of Atenveldt, as a Squire I serve my Knight. I did not seek the red belt for politics, I did not seek the red belt as a way to become a servant. I sought my red belt as a way to further my progression as a person, to hone (sp) my abilities as a fighter and to become a Knight, I feel that any goals less would tarnish my knight and I would stay his friend instead if being his squire. Lord Guillaume dela Vallee del'Ouest du Lac Sale, Squire of Irontree From: ansteorra at eden.com (11/2/95) RE>Squires >I have a question first directed to Knights and then to the general populace. >Do you make your squire's belt or do you ask them to make it themselves? >What kind of artwork do you put on the belt, your device - their device - kingdom? >Do you have a ceremony for the belting? >What do you look for in a squire? >How many squires do you limit yourself to? >How do you feel about Knights that have too many squires? >And, what constitues too many squires? >If you rather that the general populace not know your answers please email me >privately. I am Knight in another of the many LARP's out there and wish to be >informed beyond the books and letters I have read on the subject before I squire >someone. From the general populace I would like to hear how you *perceive* >these things occur. >------------------------------------- >Ches >E-mail: Ches at io.com >------------------------------------- I may not be aknight, but I am a Baroness and was a knight's lady. A squire's belt by tradition is given to the squire by the knight, therefore, the knight should make it. I used to weave the belts for my lord's squires. Some were embroidered, others left plain. You may put artwork on the belt; it is very appropriate for the knight to put both his and his squire's arms on the belt. Usually there is a ceremony; not nearly as elaborate as a knighting, but after all, it is the first step to the gold chain and white belt, and does deserve some recognition. As for what to look for in a squire, I guess that depends on the knight. Some are just looking for more people to wait on them. Some are looking for the prestige of having a lot of eager young people around them answering their every beck and call. One knight I know here, an arch-Duke, looks for those who have the heart to become a knight. He doesn't look for skill, he looks into the candidate's heart and sees whether the belt and chain are there. Unfortunately, my lord just wanted bodies. He didn't even bother to really oversee their training. It was a terrible waste of both a good knight and a lot of people with strong potential. As for how many are too many- How many squires can you oversee without having any one of them lack? That to me seemed to be the best rule. The knights that I admire the most followed that dictum. Now you have an answer from not a knight and not general populace. I am a founding Baroness and ex-Kingdom officer (twice). I was also lady to knights from at least 2 different kingdoms and found that traditions are pretty much the same. I would have been squired myself, but since I outranked in precedence the knight, we decided that that would not be a good idea. Probably for the best. Good luck in your quest- Morag NicGhille Eoin, Baroness Raven's Fort. From: ansteorra at eden.com (11/2/95) RE>Squires At 10:54 AM 11/2/95 PST, you wrote: >Do you make your squire's belt or do you ask them to make it themselves? Ches, although we never quite seem to see things eye-to-eye I'll respond as a squire. I received my first belt from my knight in 1980. It got lost in a move and his lady replaced it for me. That one was destroyed by water damage and i have yet to provide a suitable replacement (I have a custom one planned). >What kind of artwork do you put on the belt, your device - their device - kingdom? On my belt at the tip of the tongue is a symbol related to my knights device, I have seen in Caid and the west a few that have a kingdom icon & their knights device, and I have seen those that are un-marked. >Do you have a ceremony for the belting? In my own case, there was no cerimony, but that was 15 years ago. >What do you look for in a squire? Heh, I feel funny answering this one. Dedication. A squire is dedicated in many ways. Fighting and the art of fighting. Persistance and the ability to keep trying even at great odds. Friendship, a squire is a close personal bond with his knight. They have to work together and learn from each other, these two will be in close situations and events for many years. Honor to duty and civility, I no longer have a knight because he died, however this does not preclude me from the duties I was charged with. I am his squire 'til death take me or the world end' as the oath I took goes. Well, I'm still alive and it appears to be the same world. I am his squire and shall do duty in his name. This is not as easy as it may sound, what duties do you do for someone who's not there? Some knights (or non-knights) go to events and they have squires, sometimes the squire is unable to attend, I try to fill in that gap for my fellow squires in aiding that knight or fighter as best I can and still discharge other household or event duties I may have. I must dedicate myself to service of the group as a whole and to any station or office I may hold and I do so in honor to my knight. To serve thoe whole is to serve him. >How many squires do you limit yourself to? My knight had only one, but he did speak of 3 as the most he could deal with. >How do you feel about Knights that have too many squires? I feel that the squires may not be fully able to benefit from service if there are too many. Part of being a squire is knowing you are the chosen of a knight and therefor special, it is somewhat defeating to be 'just another squire' of a throng. >And, what constitues too many squires? That can only be up to what the knight is looking for IN a squire. If the knight is in a Household of squires the more the better for him, but it loses the charm for the individual squire. My own knight said 3 would max him out, so I think 2 would be best and when one gets promoted get another and start anew and watch how your own treat THEIR new squire(s). ---- Lord Squire elitist-militant-waterbearer Crispin Lechtscaerpne Starblade Bryn Gwlad - Ansteorra - House Starblade (aka-Fox Anton Purtill) blackfox at eden.com | starblad at eden.com | {anyname} at trueblue.com) From: ansteorra at eden.com (11/3/95) RE>Squires Though I am a lowly personage I have been chance to observe many behaviors of (and talk to) knights from this and other kingdoms and have read much about the squire subject (mostly in Thinkwell and the Rialto). From what I have seen all your questions would be answered differently by different knights, but different liniages of knights tend to use similar traditions. My lord for the most part chooses his squires for their heart.( I will let him explain his processes on his own.) Most of the other knights I know do also. A few choose theirs for fighting and trainability. Some because they are friends. Some knights expect their squires to have great honour, some to be "winners". In our kingdom knights usually choose squires that they are or can be friends with. They tend to hold their squires to the chivalric ideal of knighthood as put forth in the front of the Pleasure Booke (available from the SCA stockclerk). These ideals include not only fighting ability but ability at courtly graces, chess, arts and sciences, dance, bardic, service and heraldry. Their squires are not to step and fetch but to grow and learn to become a knight. I have seen like behavior in other kingdoms and have also seen the knights that require their squires to cater to their (the knight's) every need. Disgusting as it is to watch it is definitely period practice. Some Knights make the Squire's belt for them, or the Knight's lady does it, or the lady or a friend of the Squire makes it and even sometimes the Squire makes his first belt to prove his desire for that path. Some have the Knight's device on the end or other emblem of that Knight, some are plain, some are decorated, and a few have bottle openers on the inside. Some are short, some are dragging the ground (so much better for belt wars and stupid squire tricks). The initial belt (and belts from those dear to the squire) are usually kept as legacies to be passed down to the next generation of squires. As far as ceremonies, I have seen them in court (recently Sir Karl took his newest squire this way), or off to the side (as I have seen Duke Patrick do on several occaisions), or privately in camp (and even once by letter). They can be elaborate or just simple and heartfelt. All include a swearing of fealty (squire to knight) and statement of commitment (both parties) (!!!! all this should be worked out before hand, different people have different expectations and needs!!!!!). The belt is presented (no matter who it is made by) from the Knight to the Squire as a symbol of that relationship. Most include the proto-squire's significant other in some way. Lots of things need to be worked out in the relationship beforehand and re-worked as the relationship changes. Does the proto-squire need lots of physical training from you directly, or will you send them to train occaisionally (or even primarily depending upon distance and time restraints) with other knights for diverse instruction? Does the P-S need more mental work and/or behavioral adjustments? Is the P-S a go-getter and need gentle direction and a voice in the circle or does that person need attention and diligent effort all along the way? Lastly or maybe firstly, what are you willing to give in relation to your P-S needs? I am assuming of course that you take the roles of Knight/Squire as those of Teacher/Student. Not playing Amtgard and knowing you have many kinds of Knighthoods and are a LAPG (not many SCAers consider themselves such) I don't know if this is what you need. Lorraine DeerSlayer, Raven's Fort, Ansteorra Amatuer Anthropologist From: ansteorra at eden.com (11/7/95) RE>Squires Greetings all! Being a Knight of this fine Kingdom is a "good thing" I was once a Squire to a Knight, well, two different Knights. The first was Sir John the Plain of Shern...we knew that I would not receive a lot of personal attention. Our agreement was such that if either of us felt that we were not being trained or represented properly then we would end our contract. In time this came to pass, Sir John passed me along to Sir Ian MacBaird, there were no hard feelings between us and we remained friends until the untimely death of Sir John. Sir Ian had many, many Squires...I was one of but a dozen or so. We were a diverse lot...and we did not receive all the personal training each of us needed. Usually because of distance and time constraints. The point I'm slowly driving towards is this. I pick my Squires for their heart, not just their ability with a sword. I expect each of them to do no less than I did. To strive to be the best artsian, to serve their Kingdom to the limits of their ability and beyond, and to seek out their train in the Way of Rattan from _all_ members of our Circle. Some of my 9 1/2 Squires ('Tis a long story that...*smile*) might never be Knights. That is just the way it is. But, they do have one thing from me...my example to follow. I am not the most accessable person, nor am I the best for their physical training, but I do train them. In many different ways. The Knights and Master in the Chivalric Circle are the best in the Known World, on average. All of us are versed in the Arts of Courtly grace, the Arts & Sciences, service to our Crown and Kingdom, and the Arts of Tournament and War. I don't just take "bodies" to say that I have a lot of Squires, no, I have those folk "in my stable" that have Heart and Desire, those that can operate, mostly, by themselves. Those that do not need to have their steps guided every moment of the day. They are independent and individuals, and I want them that way. Well, this rant is over for now. Thank you all for the space and time to state my feelings. With respect and love to each of you, my Squires, and Ansteorra, Sir Arenvald Kief av Kiersted, Baron Ravens Fort, Lion of Ansteorra From: ansteorra at eden.com (11/25/95) To: ansteorra at eden.com RE>Squires Russell writes: > Its pretty simple. A Knight-Squire relationship is a personal one and > not bounded by any Kingdom border. It is fairly common to see a Squire > to a "foreign" Knight. This often happens because the Squire used to > live in that other Kingdom, and moved. Or if the knight and squire(s) in question happen to live near the border of the two kingdoms. Although such a situation hasn't existed here for a while, it would be very easy to do where I live in St. Louis. The Missouri side is the Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir, and the Illinois side is the Barony of Shattered Crystal, Midrealm. There have been several instances in past years of a knight in one group taking a squire in the other. Calontir and the Midrealm even have a treaty to address the issue of those that live on one side of the border and play enough on the other side to garner awards and recognition from the Crowns of that kingdom. Individuals listed on the treaty (which is periodically updated) are recognized by both Crowns as participants in both kingdoms, and inclusion on the treaty constitutes prior notification for awards, so that seperate permission isn't needed for each honor said individuals might receive from the "foreign" monarchs. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: mchance at crl.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:55:00 -0500 From: "Mitchell, Paul T" Subject: RE: You *can* sometimes get what you wan To: ANSTEORRA at eden.com > I think such techniques work better for peerages -- fewer candidates > and, well, I don't want to say "more important", because many people > just get an AoA and it's *their* most important award, but ... > Anyway. I've heard that knights will sometimes ask oh so casually > when a candidate's name starts getting mentioned "what do you think of > surprise awards? or field knightings?" or some such. > -- > Daniel de Lincoln > Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com This is one of the advantages of being a squire/protege/apprentice, too. Usually, "your" peer will have some idea of your preference, and can advise the Crown. This is also true in the case of cadets and their Dons. - Galen of Bristol pmitchel at flash.net paul.t.mitchell at lmco.com http://www.flash.net/~pmitchel/galen.htm From: "Mitchell, Paul (DALLAS)" To: "'Ansteorra mailing list'" Subject: RE: ANST - Proteges, Squires, Apprentices Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:59:00 -0400 From: Bill Sholar >As a newcomer to the SCA, the recent discussion of Peers has raised some >questions. How does one become a Protege, Squire or Apprentice? (Or >Cadet for that matter?) Are those titles recognition of achievement? Are >they 'half-way' to the full blown Peerage (or Grant)? Are they merely a >declaration that the individual has set foot on that road? In other >words do they recognize skill/merit or intentions? Something in the >middle? Who is involved in the decision to award the red/green/yellow >belt? Is there a ceremony like there is with a Peerage or is it a >private matter? >--Bill Squires, proteges, apprentices and cadets are labels for kinds of relationships. They each have much in common with the others. Squires are in training to be members of the chivalry, usually knights (Masters of Arms often call their squires "students"), apprentices are in training to become Masters or Mistresses of the Laurel, proteges aspire to the Order of the Pelican, and cadets aspire to the Order of the White Scarf. I'll use squires as an example, as it's what I know best, but I feel confident these generalities are true across the board. Each knight-squire relationship is different. I have 5 squires (going on 6) and each relationship is different from each of the others. Each squire has different strengths, weaknesses and needs, and each knight has different standards, styles and methods. How do you become one? Develop a relationship with a peer (or Don). It should be a natural progression from there to formalize it. Most (though not all) don't mind talking about the subject if you want to get their point of view on it. Theses are not titles like other SCA titles. They are not recognition of achievement so much as they are identifiers for those who've made a commitment to strive for an ideal. They do NOT convey rank to the holder. They do not signify that the person is "half-way" to anything. A King of Ansteorra once said, "all that red belt really means is that some knight, somewhere, thinks you can't make it on your own." Now, that's a bit harsh, but you can use that line on any squires that start trying to use their belt to take precedence. You really can't look at a red belt and have any kind of good idea of how good the fighter is. Last Saturday morning, Sir Axel's squire Dieterich was a knight- quality fighter (he was knighted that morning). Next Saturday morning, Sir Axel's new squire Ozelay will be, well, not ready for her spurs yet. Each peer has his own standards for these associates, and different things they look for. some want more accomplished students, others don't require that. The decision is solely between the two individuals, although either may consult others (I usually give my lady veto power over new squires, and I usually give my other squires a chance to raise objections, as well). Ceremonies, too are a variable thing. I've seen it done up big in court, and I've seen belts just tossed to the new squire before a feast. It all depends on the individuals' styles and desires. - Galen of Bristol pmitchel at flash.net (hm) mitchell at dallas.genphysics.com (wk) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:30:16 MST From: Brent Hanner Subject: BG - A Medieval Tidbit - The squire in hall and bower To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" The Squire in Hall and Bower Fair, and fairer still than I can say, was Blonde the Earl's daughter. She sat at dinner, and was served by Jehan, fair and free of body, who pained himself much to earn all men's grace by his courteous service. He waited not on his lady alone, but up and down throughout the hall; knight and lady, squire and page, groom and messenger, all he served according to their desire, and thus from all he earned good-will. He knew well to seize the moment for serving and honoring each guest, so that Blonde, the fair and shapely, found her needs none the worse supplied. After the dinner they washed their hands, and went to play , each as he would, up in the forest or down by the river or in come other sort of pastime. Jehan went with whom he would; and, on his return, oftentimes would he go to play in the countess's bower, wherein the ladies, as it were by main force, kept him to teach them French. He, as a courteous youth, did and said ever according to their prayer, as one who well knew how to comport himself. Well he knew all chamber games-- chess and tables and dice, wherewith he diverted the lady Blonde; often said he check and mate to her. Many other games he taught her; and taught her a better French than she had known before his coming; wherefore she held him full dear..... One day, as Blonde sat at table, it was for Jehan to carve before her...By chance he cast his eyes on her; yet he had seen her daily these eighteen weeks past... From this look such thoughts came into his head, that on his carving he thought no more. Blonde, who marked his thoughts astray, took upon her to rebuke him therefore, and bad him think on his carving without delay. Seeing then that Jehan heard her not for the moment, then spake she again, "Carve, Jehan! are you sleeping or dreaming here? I pray you, give me now to eat; of your courtesy, dream now no more." At this word Jehan heard her voice; therewith he started as one who is shaken suddenly from his sleep. He marveled at this adventure; he seized the knife as a man in a dream, and thought to carve well and fair, but so distraught was he that he cut deep into two fingers: forth sprang blood as he rose from table, and sad was Blonde at the sight. Jehan prayed another squire to carve before his lady, and went forthwith to his own chamber. Philippe de Reimes Blonde of Oxford Edited by Mark S. Harris squires-msg Page 9 of 9