knighthood-msg - 9/17/08 ਀ഊKnighthood in SCA and period. ਀ഊNOTE: See also the files: squires-msg, Chivalry-art, chivalry-msg, chiv-orders-msg, fealty-art, fealty-msg, 25-years-late-art, Fealty-n-t-SCA-art. ਀ഊ************************************************************************ ਀一伀吀䤀䌀䔀 ⴀഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 愀 挀漀洀洀漀渀 琀栀攀洀攀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 洀礀 爀攀愀搀椀渀最 漀昀 琀栀攀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 挀漀洀瀀甀琀攀爀 渀攀琀眀漀爀欀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 搀愀琀攀 戀愀挀欀 琀漀 ㄀㤀㠀㤀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀 洀愀礀 戀攀 愀猀 爀攀挀攀渀琀 愀猀 礀攀猀琀攀爀搀愀礀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀椀猀 昀椀氀攀 椀猀 瀀愀爀琀 漀昀 愀 挀漀氀氀攀挀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 昀椀氀攀猀 挀愀氀氀攀搀 匀琀攀昀愀渀✀猀 䘀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀ 吀栀攀猀攀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀爀攀 愀瘀愀椀氀愀戀氀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀 䤀渀琀攀爀渀攀琀 愀琀㨀 栀琀琀瀀㨀⼀⼀眀眀眀⸀昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀䤀 栀愀瘀攀 搀漀渀攀 愀 氀椀洀椀琀攀搀 愀洀漀甀渀琀 漀昀 攀搀椀琀椀渀最⸀ 䴀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 猀攀瀀愀爀愀琀攀 琀漀瀀椀挀猀 眀攀爀攀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 猀瀀氀椀琀 椀渀琀漀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 昀椀氀攀猀 愀渀搀 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀 攀砀琀爀愀渀攀漀甀猀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 眀愀猀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀⸀ 䘀漀爀 椀渀猀琀愀渀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀 䤀䐀猀 眀攀爀攀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀搀 琀漀 猀愀瘀攀 猀瀀愀挀攀 愀渀搀 爀攀洀漀瘀攀 挀氀甀琀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 挀漀洀洀攀渀琀猀 洀愀搀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 愀爀攀 渀漀琀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀椀氀礀 洀礀 瘀椀攀眀瀀漀椀渀琀猀⸀ 䤀 洀愀欀攀 渀漀 挀氀愀椀洀猀 愀猀 琀漀 琀栀攀 愀挀挀甀爀愀挀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 最椀瘀攀渀 戀礀 琀栀攀 椀渀搀椀瘀椀搀甀愀氀 愀甀琀栀漀爀猀⸀ഊ ਀倀氀攀愀猀攀 爀攀猀瀀攀挀琀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 愀渀搀 攀昀昀漀爀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀漀猀攀 眀栀漀 栀愀瘀攀 眀爀椀琀琀攀渀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 挀漀瀀礀爀椀最栀琀 猀琀愀琀甀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀 椀猀 甀渀挀氀攀愀爀 愀琀 琀栀椀猀 琀椀洀攀⸀ 䤀昀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 椀猀 瀀甀戀氀椀猀栀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀猀攀 洀攀猀猀愀最攀猀Ⰰ 瀀氀攀愀猀攀 最椀瘀攀 挀爀攀搀椀琀 琀漀 琀栀攀 漀爀椀最椀渀愀琀漀爀⠀猀⤀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀愀渀欀 礀漀甀Ⰰഊ Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous ਀                                          匀琀攀昀愀渀 愀琀 昀氀漀爀椀氀攀最椀甀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ************************************************************************ ਀ഊFrom: L6PJDU%IRISHMVS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Cathy Lindsay 239-6679, 219) ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 ㈀㘀 一漀瘀 㤀　 ㈀㄀㨀㐀㈀㨀　　 䜀䴀吀ഊ ਀䜀爀攀攀琀椀渀最猀 昀爀漀洀 䬀愀琀栀攀爀椀渀攀 漀昀 䌀漀渀猀琀愀渀琀椀渀漀瀀氀攀 ⠀洀甀渀搀愀渀攀氀礀 䌀愀琀栀礀ഊLindsay the Library Technical Assistant - don't ask what that means) ਀伀甀爀 氀椀戀爀愀爀礀 樀甀猀琀 爀攀挀攀椀瘀攀搀 愀 渀攀眀 戀漀漀欀 琀栀愀琀 洀愀礀 戀攀 漀昀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀ഊto some readers on the Rialto: ਀吀栀攀 䤀搀攀愀氀猀 愀渀搀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀 漀昀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀⸀ 䔀搀⸀ 戀礀 䌀⸀ഊHarper-Bell and R. Harvey, Boydell Press, 1990. ਀䤀琀 氀漀漀欀猀 瀀爀攀琀琀礀 最漀漀搀⸀  䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀椀洀攀 琀漀 爀攀愀搀 椀琀 渀漀眀Ⰰ 猀漀ഊdon't look to me for a review! I'd be interested in hearing ਀昀爀漀洀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 眀栀漀 搀漀攀猀 爀攀愀搀 椀琀℀ഊ ਀ഊFrom: L6PJDU%IRISHMVS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Cathy Lindsay 239-6679, 219) ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 ㈀㘀 一漀瘀 㤀　 ㈀㄀㨀㐀㈀㨀　　 䜀䴀吀ഊ ਀䜀爀攀攀琀椀渀最猀 昀爀漀洀 䬀愀琀栀攀爀椀渀攀 漀昀 䌀漀渀猀琀愀渀琀椀渀漀瀀氀攀 ⠀洀甀渀搀愀渀攀氀礀 䌀愀琀栀礀ഊLindsay the Library Technical Assistant - don't ask what that means) ਀伀甀爀 氀椀戀爀愀爀礀 樀甀猀琀 爀攀挀攀椀瘀攀搀 愀 渀攀眀 戀漀漀欀 琀栀愀琀 洀愀礀 戀攀 漀昀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀ഊto some readers on the Rialto: ਀吀栀攀 䤀搀攀愀氀猀 愀渀搀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀 漀昀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀⸀ 䔀搀⸀ 戀礀 䌀⸀ഊHarper-Bell and R. Harvey, Boydell Press, 1990. ਀䤀琀 氀漀漀欀猀 瀀爀攀琀琀礀 最漀漀搀⸀  䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀椀洀攀 琀漀 爀攀愀搀 椀琀 渀漀眀Ⰰ 猀漀ഊdon't look to me for a review! I'd be interested in hearing ਀昀爀漀洀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 眀栀漀 搀漀攀猀 爀攀愀搀 椀琀℀ഊ ਀ഊNewsgroups: rec.org.sca ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 洀椀琀琀氀攀 愀琀 眀愀琀猀漀渀⸀椀戀洀⸀挀漀洀 ⠀䄀爀瘀愀氀 搀✀䔀猀瀀愀猀 一漀爀搀⤀ഊSubject: Re: Knightly virtues? ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 圀攀搀Ⰰ 㔀 䨀愀渀 ㄀㤀㤀㐀 ㄀㜀㨀㄀　㨀㔀㠀 䜀䴀吀ഊOrganization: IBM T.J. Watson Research ਀ഊGreetings from Arval! In the thread about men dancing, Carolus Malvoix ਀眀爀漀琀攀㨀 ഊ> Dancing is not a knightly virtue. I will go one step further, and say ਀㸀 琀栀愀琀 ⨀渀漀琀栀椀渀最⨀ 渀漀琀 挀漀渀渀攀挀琀攀搀 琀漀 洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀 挀爀漀眀渀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 攀瘀攀爀ഊ> be considered a knightly virtue. Chivalry and honour upon the field of ਀㸀 戀愀琀琀氀攀Ⰰ 攀渀漀甀最栀 挀漀甀爀琀攀猀礀 琀漀 攀渀猀甀爀攀 礀漀甀 攀爀攀 渀漀琀 愀 戀氀愀挀欀 洀愀爀欀 漀渀 礀漀甀爀ഊ> kingdom, and a great deal of martial skill are in my opinion the only ਀㸀 愀瀀瀀爀漀瀀爀椀愀琀攀 昀愀挀琀漀爀猀 琀漀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀爀攀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀ഊ ਀唀渀氀攀猀猀 礀漀甀 愀爀攀 琀栀椀渀欀椀渀最 漀昀 猀漀洀攀 瀀爀攀ⴀ䌀愀爀漀氀椀渀最椀愀渀 渀漀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀Ⰰ 䤀 愀洀ഊafraid you are simply wrong. Both historically and in the SCA, courtliness ਀栀愀猀 开愀氀眀愀礀猀开 戀攀攀渀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀攀搀 漀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀漀洀瀀漀渀攀渀琀猀 漀昀 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀礀⸀  吀栀攀ഊvirtues of chivalry include prouesse (prowess), franchise (noble bearing), ਀氀愀爀最攀猀猀攀 ⠀最攀渀攀爀漀猀椀琀礀⤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 挀漀甀爀琀漀椀猀椀攀 ⠀挀漀甀爀琀氀椀渀攀猀猀⤀⸀  一䈀㨀 吀栀攀 氀愀猀琀 琀攀爀洀 椀猀ഊnot properly translated by the modern word "courtesy," though it includes ਀猀漀洀攀 攀氀攀洀攀渀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 愀渀搀 匀䌀䄀 挀漀渀挀攀瀀琀猀 挀漀瘀攀爀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀愀琀 眀漀爀搀⸀  吀栀攀猀攀ഊvirtues are described in every treatise on chivalry that I have ਀攀渀挀漀甀渀琀攀爀攀搀Ⰰ 搀愀琀椀渀最 戀愀挀欀 琀漀 琀栀攀 ㄀㈀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀⸀  吀漀 挀椀琀攀 愀 昀攀眀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀猀 琀栀愀琀ഊhave not already been mentioned: L'Histoire de Guillaume le Marechal makes ਀攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀 渀漀琀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䴀愀爀猀栀愀氀✀猀 愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 愀猀 愀 搀愀渀挀攀爀⸀  䔀瘀攀爀礀 琀爀攀愀琀椀猀攀 漀渀 琀栀攀ഊtournament which I have read includes dancing as a _major_ part of the ਀昀攀猀琀椀瘀椀琀椀攀猀 猀甀爀爀漀甀渀搀 琀栀攀 琀漀甀爀渀愀洀攀渀琀⸀  䄀渀搀椀昀 礀漀甀 搀漀渀✀琀 瀀爀攀昀攀爀 刀愀洀漀渀 䰀氀甀氀氀Ⰰഊsuggested by Strykar, you might try Tirant lo Blanc, a description of the ਀椀搀攀愀氀 欀渀椀最栀琀 眀爀椀琀琀攀渀 戀礀 愀 ㄀㔀琀栀 挀攀渀琀甀爀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀㬀 漀渀 䠀漀渀漀爀 䈀漀渀攀琀Ⰰ ∀吀栀攀 琀爀攀攀 漀昀ഊbattles". I think you will find that none of these authors agrees with you. ਀ഊLooking later in history, the great Renaissance treatise on chivalry is ਀䌀愀猀琀椀最氀椀漀渀攀✀猀 䈀漀漀欀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䌀漀甀爀琀椀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀猀 䠀漀瀀攀 䜀爀攀攀渀戀攀爀最 渀漀琀攀搀ⰀഊCastiglione would not have given the time of day to a man who couldn't ਀搀愀渀挀攀⸀ഊ ਀吀甀爀渀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 挀漀渀挀攀琀瀀 漀昀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀Ⰰ 䌀栀爀椀猀琀漀昀攀爀 搀攀 䠀漀礀氀愀渀搀 洀愀搀攀 愀渀ഊexcellent point: ਀ഊ> Knighthood, in the SCA, is not just a fighting award. It is a Peerage. ਀㸀 吀栀攀猀攀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 愀爀攀 氀漀漀欀攀搀 漀渀 琀漀 戀攀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀猀 琀漀 漀琀栀攀爀猀⸀ഊ ਀䔀砀愀挀琀氀礀⸀  匀䌀䄀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 椀猀 渀漀琀 樀甀猀琀 愀 洀攀爀椀琀 戀愀搀最攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 琀漀甀最栀攀猀琀 猀琀椀挀欀ഊjock; it is a recognition of general achievement equivalent to that of ਀攀瘀攀爀礀 漀琀栀攀爀 瀀攀攀爀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀漀挀椀攀琀礀⸀  䤀 搀漀甀戀琀 礀漀甀 挀漀甀氀搀 昀椀渀搀 洀愀渀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀ⰀഊCarolus, who would support your tunnel-view of SCA knighthood, and a simple ਀最氀愀渀挀攀 愀琀 䌀漀爀瀀漀爀愀 洀愀欀攀猀 椀琀 挀氀攀愀爀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 爀甀氀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 搀漀渀✀琀 攀椀琀栀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀ഊArval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 猀栀椀挀欀 愀琀 攀甀爀漀瀀愀⸀攀渀最⸀最琀攀昀猀搀⸀挀漀洀 ⠀匀琀攀瘀攀 䠀椀挀欀⤀ഊNewsgroups: rec.org.sca ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 䬀渀椀最栀琀氀礀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀猀㼀ഊDate: 5 Jan 1994 14:56:03 GMT ਀伀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀㨀 䜀吀䔀 䜀匀䌀 䘀匀䐀ഊ ਀䤀渀 愀爀琀椀挀氀攀 㰀㤀㐀　　　㔀㜀㔀㜀㜀⸀䄀䄀㜀㔀㜀㜀㌀㈀㜀㜀㌀ 愀琀 猀洀琀瀀最愀琀攀⸀挀挀挀瀀瀀⸀挀漀洀㸀Ⰰ 䄀䰀䘀刀䔀䐀 愀琀 挀挀挀瀀瀀⸀䌀伀䴀ഊ(ALFRED) wrote: ਀ഊ> Good Carolus, ਀㸀 ഊ> You passionately rebutt Sir John's posting: ਀㸀 ഊ> >> Countess Elena of Beckingham ... announces that dancing ਀㸀           㸀㸀 椀猀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀氀礀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀 椀渀 猀甀挀栀 愀 昀愀猀栀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀 氀漀挀愀氀ഊ> >> fighters hear it.... ਀㸀           㸀㸀 䨀漀栀渀 吀栀攀漀瀀栀漀氀椀猀ഊ> ਀㸀           㸀 䤀 搀椀猀愀最爀攀攀⸀ 䐀愀渀挀椀渀最 椀猀 渀漀琀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀氀礀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀⸀ 䤀 眀椀氀氀 最漀ഊ> > one step further, and say that *nothing* not connected ਀㸀           㸀 琀漀 洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀 琀漀 琀栀攀 挀爀漀眀渀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 攀瘀攀爀 戀攀ഊ> > considered a knightly virtue. ਀㸀 ഊ> It has long been the belief of the SCA chivalry that we are ਀㸀           琀爀礀椀渀最 琀漀 攀洀甀氀愀琀攀 琀栀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 漀昀 氀椀琀攀爀愀爀礀 爀漀洀愀渀挀攀Ⰰ 爀愀琀栀攀爀ഊ> than any historical model. As such, a set of criteria, ਀㸀           愀氀戀攀椀琀 愀爀戀椀琀爀愀爀礀Ⰰ 眀愀猀 猀攀琀 搀漀眀渀 猀漀洀攀 琀椀洀攀 愀最漀 愀猀 愀 最甀椀搀攀氀椀渀攀ഊ> for elevating candidates to the order. This is not unlike ਀㸀           䌀愀猀琀椀最氀椀漀渀攀✀猀 椀搀攀愀氀 最攀渀琀氀攀洀愀渀 椀渀 开吀栀攀 䈀漀漀欀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䌀漀甀爀琀椀攀爀开⸀ഊ> Thus, dancing is an _SCA_ knightly virtue, regardless of its ਀㸀           爀攀氀攀瘀愀渀挀攀 琀漀 栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀愀氀 攀氀攀瘀愀琀椀漀渀 挀爀椀琀攀爀椀愀⸀ഊ ਀ഊI also recommend that all should read Ramon Llull's Boke of the Ordre of ਀䌀栀椀瘀愀氀爀礀 愀渀搀 䬀渀椀最栀琀栀漀搀攀⸀ 䰀氀甀氀氀 眀愀猀 愀 瘀攀爀礀 猀椀最渀椀昀椀挀渀愀琀 䌀愀琀愀氀漀渀椀愀渀 愀甀琀栀漀爀ഊwhose book was translated into almost every western european language ਀搀甀爀椀渀最 琀栀攀 洀椀搀搀氀攀 愀最攀猀 ⠀夀漀甀✀瘀攀 最漀琀 礀漀甀爀 挀栀漀椀挀攀 漀昀 氀愀渀最甀愀最攀 ⴀ 攀渀最氀椀猀栀Ⰰഊfrench, spanish, italian, or catalan) , and many important magnates (e.g ਀琀栀攀 䐀甀欀攀猀 漀昀 䈀甀爀最甀渀搀礀⤀ 栀愀搀 挀漀瀀椀攀猀 椀渀 琀栀攀椀爀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀愀氀 氀椀戀爀愀爀椀攀猀⸀ഊ ਀䰀氀甀氀氀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 猀瀀攀愀欀 洀甀挀栀 琀漀 琀栀攀 ✀挀漀甀爀琀氀礀 愀爀琀猀✀ 戀甀琀 猀瀀攀愀欀猀 洀漀爀攀 愀戀漀甀琀ഊservice, gentleness, etc., other attributes which are also precluded by Sir ਀䨀漀栀渀✀猀 猀琀愀琀攀洀攀渀琀 愀戀漀甀琀 ∀洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀∀  ⠀䤀 戀攀氀椀攀瘀攀 戀礀 愀挀挀椀搀攀渀琀 漀昀ഊover-inclusiveness). ਀ഊST ਀䰀氀甀氀氀Ⰰ 刀愀洀漀渀Ⰰ 搀⸀ ㄀㌀㄀㔀⸀㬀 吀栀攀 戀漀漀欀 漀昀 琀栀攀 伀爀搀爀攀 漀昀 挀栀礀甀愀氀爀礀Ⰰ 琀爀愀渀猀氀愀琀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊprinted by William Caxton from a French version of Ramon Lull's "Le libre ਀搀攀氀 漀爀搀攀 搀攀 挀愀甀愀礀氀攀爀椀愀∀Ⰰ 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 眀椀琀栀 䄀搀愀洀 䰀漀甀琀昀甀琀✀猀 匀挀漀琀琀椀猀栀 琀爀愀渀猀挀爀椀瀀琀ഊ(Harleian ms. 6149) ed. by Alfred T. P. Byles. -- London, Pub. for the ਀䔀愀爀氀礀 䔀渀最氀椀猀栀 吀攀砀琀 匀漀挀椀攀琀礀 戀礀 䠀⸀ 䴀椀氀昀漀爀搀Ⰰ 伀砀昀漀爀搀 唀渀椀瘀攀爀猀椀琀礀 倀爀攀猀猀Ⰰ ㄀㤀㈀㘀⸀ഊ ਀ഊNewsgroups: rec.org.sca ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 琀戀愀爀渀攀猀 愀琀 猀椀氀瘀攀爀⸀甀挀猀⸀椀渀搀椀愀渀愀⸀攀搀甀 ⠀琀栀漀洀愀猀 眀爀攀渀琀洀漀爀攀 戀愀爀渀攀猀⤀ഊSubject: Re: More Men Dancing (was: Women in SCA) ਀伀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀㨀 䤀渀搀椀愀渀愀 唀渀椀瘀攀爀猀椀琀礀ഊDate: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 01:38:01 GMT ਀ഊIn article parr at acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes: ਀㸀ഊ>I disagree. Dancing is not a knightly virtue. I will go one step ਀㸀昀甀爀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀愀礀 琀栀愀琀 ⨀渀漀琀栀椀渀最⨀ 渀漀琀 挀漀渀渀攀挀琀攀搀 琀漀 洀椀氀椀琀愀爀礀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀ഊ>to the crown should ever be considered a knightly virtue. ਀㸀ഊ>Chivalry and honour upon the field of battle, enough courtesy ਀㸀琀漀 攀渀猀甀爀攀 礀漀甀 攀爀攀 渀漀琀 愀 戀氀愀挀欀 洀愀爀欀 漀渀 礀漀甀爀 欀椀渀最搀漀洀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 最爀攀愀琀ഊ>deal of martial skill are in my opinion the only appropriate ਀㸀昀愀挀琀漀爀猀 琀漀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀 椀渀 琀栀攀 挀爀攀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀ഊ> ਀ഊ Greetings from Lothar, ਀ഊ I will let a better author than I speak for me: ਀ഊ "Once, there was a notable captain who had returned from his ਀挀愀洀瀀愀椀最渀猀 琀漀 挀漀甀爀琀⸀ 䤀渀 栀漀渀漀爀 漀昀 琀栀攀 最攀渀琀氀攀洀愀渀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 氀愀搀椀攀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀漀甀爀琀ഊproposed many diverse amusements to the brave soldier, so that he might ਀攀渀樀漀礀 栀椀洀猀攀氀昀⸀ 吀栀攀 猀漀氀搀椀攀爀 爀攀昀甀猀攀搀 攀愀挀栀 愀挀琀椀瘀椀琀礀 椀渀 琀甀爀渀 ⴀ 猀椀渀最椀渀最Ⰰഊplaying chess, telling stories, poetry, dancing, and so on he refused in ਀琀甀爀渀⸀ 䘀椀渀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 愀 戀爀愀瘀攀 氀愀搀礀 愀瀀瀀爀漀愀挀栀攀搀 琀栀攀 猀漀氀搀椀攀爀 愀渀搀 愀猀欀攀搀㬀 ∀䴀椀氀漀爀搀Ⰰഊyou neither dance, nor sing, nor play on an instrument, or play at ਀最愀洀攀猀Ⰰ 漀爀 挀愀爀攀 琀漀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀 愀渀礀 漀琀栀攀爀 挀漀甀爀琀氀礀 愀爀琀Ⰰ 眀栀愀琀 䐀伀 礀漀甀 搀漀㼀∀ 吀漀ഊthis, the soldier bellowed "I fight!" ਀ऀ吀栀攀 氀愀搀礀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 搀攀洀甀爀攀氀礀 猀愀椀搀Ⰰ ∀圀攀氀氀 洀礀 氀漀爀搀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 琀栀攀爀攀 椀猀 渀漀ഊwar to be had, and you neither dance, nor sing, nor do any courtly art ਀愀琀 愀氀氀Ⰰ 䤀 猀甀最最攀猀琀 琀栀愀琀 礀漀甀 漀椀氀 礀漀甀爀猀攀氀昀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 栀愀渀最 礀漀甀爀猀攀氀昀 甀瀀 椀渀 琀栀攀ഊcloset next to your armor until war breaks out again and your lord has ਀渀攀攀搀 漀昀 礀漀甀Ⰰ 愀最愀椀渀⸀∀ ഊ ਀ऀ吀栀攀 眀漀爀搀猀 愀爀攀 洀椀渀攀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 猀琀漀爀礀 椀猀 䈀愀氀琀栀愀稀愀爀攀 䌀愀猀琀椀最氀椀漀渀攀✀猀ഊfrom his 1476 book "Book of the Courtier". ਀ഊ Lothar \|/ ਀ऀऀ  　 ഊ ਀ഊFrom: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) ਀一攀眀猀最爀漀甀瀀猀㨀 爀攀挀⸀漀爀最⸀猀挀愀ഊSubject: Re: Female knights ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ 　㌀ 䴀愀礀 㤀㐀 ㄀㄀㨀㄀㔀㨀㌀　 䔀䐀吀ഊOrganization: Stonemarche Network Co-op ਀ഊgunwaldt at astro.dasd.honeywell.com writes: ਀ഊ> Eros writes: ਀㸀 㸀 䄀猀 昀愀爀 愀猀 䤀 愀洀 愀眀愀爀攀Ⰰ 琀漀 琀栀椀猀 瘀攀爀礀 搀愀礀 ⠀愀渀搀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 愀爀攀 猀琀椀氀氀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 ഊ> > occaisionally in this century) a woman has never been knighted. I have done ਀㸀 㸀 猀漀洀攀 爀攀猀攀愀爀挀栀 椀渀琀漀 琀栀椀猀 琀漀瀀椀挀⸀ ഊ> ਀㸀 䤀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀 琀栀攀 儀甀攀攀渀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 䴀愀爀最愀爀攀琀 吀栀愀琀挀栀攀爀 愀昀琀攀爀 猀栀攀 眀愀猀 渀漀 氀漀渀最攀爀ഊ> Prime Minister. ਀㸀 ഊ> Gunwaldt ਀ഊMegan here. Well, I retrieved the Tome from the shelf. Muckin' big book. ਀ ✀吀栀攀 䤀渀猀琀椀琀甀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 䰀愀眀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䌀攀爀攀洀漀渀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀䴀漀猀琀 一漀戀氀攀 伀爀搀攀爀 漀昀 琀栀攀 ഊGarter" by Ashmole, first published in London 1672 (yes OOP) and my copy ਀椀猀 琀栀攀 昀愀挀猀椀洀椀氀攀 漀昀 ㄀㤀㜀㄀⸀ഊChapter 111, section 111 speaks of The Feminine Cavaliers of the Torch in ਀吀漀爀琀漀猀愀⸀ഊI quote: ਀∀䄀渀搀 渀漀眀Ⰰ 椀渀 挀氀漀猀攀 漀昀 漀甀爀 搀椀猀挀漀甀爀猀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 漀爀搀攀爀猀 漀昀 䬀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀Ⰰ 最椀瘀攀 甀猀 ഊleave to bring up the rere, with a memorial relating to Feminine Valour, ਀愀渀搀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䰀愀琀攀爀 䄀最攀 ⠀昀漀爀 眀攀 猀栀愀氀氀 渀漀琀 渀攀攀搀 琀漀 椀渀猀琀愀渀挀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 䄀洀愀稀漀渀猀 漀昀 ഊold, whose fame in Arms is so generally known) since some of that Sex, ਀栀愀瘀椀渀最 愀焀甀椀爀攀搀 栀漀渀漀甀爀 愀渀搀 爀攀渀漀眀渀Ⰰ 戀礀 琀栀攀椀爀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀愀氀 挀漀甀爀愀最攀 愀渀搀 瘀愀氀椀愀渀琀 ഊexploits, have had bestowed on them the priviledge of living after the ਀洀愀渀渀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 椀 琀栀攀 攀猀琀攀攀洀 漀昀 䬀渀椀最栀琀猀⸀ഊ"The example is of the Noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by ਀䨀漀猀攀昀 䴀椀挀栀攀氀椀 䴀愀爀焀甀攀稀Ⰰ 眀栀漀 瀀氀愀椀渀氀礀 挀愀氀氀猀 琀栀攀洀 䌀愀瘀愀氀氀攀爀漀猀 漀爀 䬀渀椀最栀琀猀Ⰰ 漀爀 ഊmay I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae ਀愀渀搀 䴀椀氀椀琀椀猀猀愀攀 ⠀昀漀爀洀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 䰀愀琀椀渀 䔀焀甀椀琀攀猀 愀渀搀 䴀椀氀椀琀攀猀⤀ 栀攀爀攀琀漀昀漀爀攀 ഊapplied to Women, and sometimes used to express Madams or Ladies,though ਀渀漀眀 琀栀攀猀猀攀 吀椀琀氀攀猀 愀爀攀 渀漀琀 欀渀漀眀渀⸀ഊ"Don Raymond, last Earl of Barcellona (who by intermarriage with ਀倀攀琀爀漀渀椀氀氀愀Ⰰ 漀渀氀礀 䐀愀甀最栀琀攀爀 愀渀搀 䠀攀椀爀 漀昀 䬀椀渀最 刀愀洀椀爀漀 琀栀攀 䴀漀渀欀Ⰰ 甀渀椀琀攀搀 琀栀愀琀 ഊprincipality to the Kingdom of Aragon) having in the year 1149, gained ਀琀栀攀 䌀椀琀礀 漀昀 吀漀爀琀漀猀愀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 䴀漀漀爀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀礀 漀渀 琀栀攀 ㌀㄀ 漀昀 䐀攀挀攀洀戀攀爀 昀漀氀氀漀眀椀渀最Ⰰ ഊlaid a new Siege to that place, for the recovery of it out of the Earls ਀栀愀渀搀猀⸀ 吀栀攀 䤀渀栀愀戀椀琀愀渀琀猀 戀攀椀渀最 愀 氀攀渀最琀栀 爀攀搀甀挀攀搀 琀漀 最爀攀愀搀 猀琀爀攀椀最栀琀猀Ⰰ 搀攀猀椀爀攀搀 ഊrelief of the Earl, but he, being not in a condition to give them any, ਀琀栀攀礀 攀渀琀攀爀琀愀椀渀攀搀 猀漀洀攀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀猀 漀昀 洀愀欀椀渀最 愀 猀甀爀爀攀渀搀攀爀⸀ 圀栀椀挀栀 琀栀攀 圀漀洀攀渀 ഊhearing of, to prevent the disaster threatning their City, themselves, ਀愀渀搀 䌀栀椀氀搀爀攀渀Ⰰ 瀀甀琀 漀渀 洀攀渀猀 䌀氀漀琀栀攀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 戀礀 愀 爀攀猀漀氀甀琀攀 猀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 昀漀爀挀攀搀 琀栀攀 ഊMoors to raise the Siege. ਀∀吀栀攀 䔀愀爀氀Ⰰ 昀椀渀搀椀渀最 栀椀洀猀攀氀昀 漀戀氀椀最攀搀Ⰰ 戀礀琀栀攀 最愀氀氀攀渀琀爀礀 漀昀 琀栀攀 愀挀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ  ഊthought fit to make his acknowlegements thereof, by granting them several ਀倀爀椀瘀椀氀攀最攀猀 愀渀搀 䤀洀洀甀渀椀琀椀攀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀漀 瀀攀爀瀀攀琀甀愀琀攀 琀栀攀 洀攀洀漀爀礀 漀昀 猀漀 猀椀最渀愀氀 愀渀 ഊattempt, instituted an Order, somewhat like a Military Order, into which ਀眀攀爀攀 愀搀洀椀琀琀攀搀 漀渀氀礀 琀栀漀猀攀 䈀爀愀瘀攀 圀漀洀攀渀Ⰰ 搀攀爀椀瘀椀渀最 琀栀攀 栀漀渀漀爀 琀漀 琀栀攀椀爀 ഊDescendants, and assigned them for a Dadge, a thing like a Fryars ਀䌀愀瀀漀甀挀栀攀Ⰰ 猀栀愀爀瀀 愀琀 琀栀攀 琀漀瀀Ⰰ 愀昀琀攀爀 琀栀攀 昀漀爀洀 漀昀 愀 吀漀爀挀栀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 漀昀 愀 挀爀椀洀猀漀渀 ഊcolour, to be worn upon their Head-clothes. He also ordained, that at ਀愀氀氀 瀀甀戀氀椀挀欀 洀攀攀琀椀渀最猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 眀漀洀攀渀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 瀀爀攀挀攀搀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䴀攀渀⸀  吀栀愀琀 ഊthey should be exempted from all Taxes, adn that all the Apparel and ਀䨀攀眀攀氀猀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀 漀昀 渀攀瘀攀爀 猀漀 最爀攀愀琀 瘀愀氀甀攀Ⰰ 氀攀昀琀 戀礀 琀栀攀椀爀 搀攀愀搀 䠀甀猀戀愀渀搀猀Ⰰ ഊshould be their own. ਀∀吀栀攀猀攀 圀漀洀攀渀 ⠀猀愀椀琀栀 漀甀爀 䄀甀琀栀漀爀⤀ 栀愀瘀椀渀最 琀栀甀猀 愀焀甀椀爀攀搀 琀栀椀猀 䠀漀渀漀爀 戀礀 琀栀攀椀爀 ഊpersonal Valour, carried themselves after the Military Knights of those ਀搀愀礀猀⸀∀ഊ ਀吀栀攀爀攀✀猀 洀漀爀攀Ⰰ 椀昀 礀漀甀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 椀琀⸀ 䤀 挀栀愀渀最攀搀 琀栀攀 昀 琀漀 猀 眀栀攀爀攀 椀琀 ഊapplied, to make it more readable. (all s's not ending a word were ਀瀀爀椀渀琀攀搀 愀猀 昀✀猀⸀ 一漀琀 攀愀昀礀 琀漀 琀爀愀渀昀爀椀戀攀Ⰰ 䤀 愀昀昀甀爀攀 礀漀甀℀⤀ 䄀氀猀漀Ⰰ 洀愀渀礀 眀漀爀搀猀 ഊwere italicised, impossible in ASCI (or is that AFCI?) ਀ഊWell, the source I quoted is secondary, but he directly translated a ਀瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 猀漀甀爀挀攀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 䤀 挀愀渀 栀甀渀琀 甀瀀 愀渀搀 焀甀漀琀攀 椀昀 礀漀甀 开爀攀愀氀氀礀开 渀攀攀搀 椀琀⸀ഊThat's about all I have ever found about female orders, but I have seen ਀洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 愀渀 漀挀挀愀猀椀漀渀愀氀 眀漀洀愀渀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀⸀ 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 礀漀甀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 爀攀愀搀 琀栀攀 ഊrolls of each order to find female names to substantiate a claim for a ਀昀攀洀愀氀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀⸀ 一漀琀 椀洀瀀漀猀猀椀戀氀攀Ⰰ 樀甀猀琀 琀椀洀攀 挀漀渀猀甀洀椀渀最⸀ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀 ഊrolls of the Garter up to the publication of this book...I will look at ਀椀琀 氀愀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀䤀渀 搀攀昀攀渀挀攀 漀昀 䘀攀洀椀渀椀渀攀 嘀愀氀漀甀爀Ⰰഊ ਀䴀攀最愀渀Ⰰ 渀漀琀 攀瘀攀爀 氀椀欀攀氀礀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 䬀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 攀瘀攀渀 椀昀 琀栀攀礀 搀漀 攀瘀攀渀琀甀愀氀氀礀 愀搀洀椀琀 ഊarchers and fencers.:-) ਀ഊ== ਀䤀渀 ㄀㤀㤀㐀㨀 䰀椀渀搀愀 䄀渀昀甀猀漀ഊIn the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive ਀䤀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀Ⰰ 䤀渀挀㨀 猀甀猀琀愀椀渀椀渀最 洀攀洀戀攀爀 ⌀ ㌀㌀㘀㐀㐀ഊ ਀                                夀夀夀     夀夀夀ഊmeg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY | ਀                                簀开开开开渀开开开开簀 ഊ ਀ഊ ਀一攀眀猀最爀漀甀瀀猀㨀 爀攀挀⸀漀爀最⸀猀挀愀ഊFrom: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 䘀攀洀愀氀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀ഊDate: Wed, 4 May 1994 14:50:36 GMT ਀伀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀㨀 䤀䈀䴀 吀⸀䨀⸀ 圀愀琀猀漀渀 刀攀猀攀愀爀挀栀ഊ ਀䜀爀攀攀琀椀渀最猀 昀爀漀洀 䄀爀瘀愀氀℀ഊ ਀䴀攀最愀渀 䰀愀椀渀攀 焀甀漀琀攀搀 愀 瀀愀猀猀愀最攀 昀爀漀洀 䔀氀椀愀猀 䄀猀栀洀漀氀攀Ⰰ ∀吀栀攀 䤀渀猀琀椀琀甀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 䰀愀眀猀Ⰰഊand Ceremony of the Most Noble Order of the Garter", in which he discussed ਀琀栀攀 一漀戀氀攀 圀漀洀攀渀 漀昀 吀漀爀琀漀猀愀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 栀攀 挀漀渀猀琀爀甀攀搀 琀漀 戀攀 眀漀洀攀渀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀⸀  䤀 愀洀ഊnot familiar with that passage, but I have studied much of Ashmole's book ਀愀渀搀 栀愀瘀攀 爀攀愀搀 洀漀搀攀爀渀 愀渀愀氀礀猀攀猀 漀昀 椀琀⸀  䴀漀搀攀爀渀 猀挀栀漀氀愀爀猀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀 栀椀猀ഊhistorical material to be thoroughly unreliable: He is known to have ਀椀渀挀氀甀搀攀搀 椀渀挀漀爀爀攀挀琀 椀渀昀漀爀洀愀琀椀漀渀 愀渀搀 琀漀 栀愀瘀攀 椀渀瘀攀渀琀攀搀 搀攀琀愀椀氀猀⸀  䤀 栀愀瘀攀 渀漀琀ഊencountered description of this order of women knights before; it may well ਀栀愀瘀攀 猀漀洀攀 戀愀猀椀猀 椀渀 昀愀挀琀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䄀猀栀洀漀氀攀✀猀 愀挀挀漀甀渀琀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 戀攀 琀愀欀攀渀 愀猀ഊdefinitive proof of anything. ਀ഊ> Well, the source I quoted is secondary, but he directly translated a ਀㸀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 猀漀甀爀挀攀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 䤀 挀愀渀 栀甀渀琀 甀瀀 愀渀搀 焀甀漀琀攀 椀昀 礀漀甀 开爀攀愀氀氀礀开 渀攀攀搀 椀琀⸀ഊ ਀圀攀 栀愀瘀攀 渀漀 眀愀礀 琀漀 欀渀漀眀 眀栀攀琀栀攀爀 琀栀攀 猀漀甀爀挀攀 洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 戀礀 䄀猀栀洀漀氀攀 椀猀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀ഊor secondary or tertiary, only that Ashmole based his account on that one. ਀ഊ> That's about all I have ever found about female orders, but I have seen ਀㸀 洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 愀渀 漀挀挀愀猀椀漀渀愀氀 眀漀洀愀渀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀⸀ 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 礀漀甀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 爀攀愀搀 琀栀攀 ഊ> rolls of each order to find female names to substantiate a claim for a ਀㸀 昀攀洀愀氀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀⸀ 一漀琀 椀洀瀀漀猀猀椀戀氀攀Ⰰ 樀甀猀琀 琀椀洀攀 挀漀渀猀甀洀椀渀最⸀ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 琀栀攀 ഊ> rolls of the Garter up to the publication of this book...I will look at ਀㸀 椀琀 氀愀琀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀爀攀 眀攀爀攀 眀漀洀攀渀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀攀搀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 伀爀搀攀爀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䜀愀爀琀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀ഊnever found specific names. However, even if they are mentioned as ਀∀挀漀洀瀀愀渀椀漀渀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 漀爀搀攀爀∀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀 搀漀攀猀 渀漀琀 椀洀瀀氀礀 琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀礀 眀攀爀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀㨀ഊWomen were admitted to the order under a different set of rules than men, ਀愀渀搀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 眀愀猀 渀漀琀 愀 瀀爀攀ⴀ爀攀焀甀椀猀椀琀攀 愀猀 椀琀 眀愀猀 昀漀爀 洀攀渀⸀  䌀漀洀瀀愀渀椀漀渀猀栀椀瀀 椀渀ഊthe order did not confer knighthood; rather, male candidates had to be ਀欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 琀栀攀礀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 挀漀渀猀椀搀攀爀攀搀⸀ഊ ਀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀㴀ഊArval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 愀琀 攀搀攀渀⸀挀漀洀 ⠀㌀⼀㈀㈀⼀㤀㔀⤀ഊTo: ansteorra at eden.com ਀欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀ഊ ਀䤀 眀愀猀 琀爀愀搀椀渀最 攀ⴀ洀愀椀氀 眀椀琀栀 匀椀爀 䌀栀攀猀Ⰰ 眀栀漀 眀愀猀 爀攀挀攀渀琀氀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 椀渀 䄀洀琀最愀爀搀ഊ(in the SCA she's Lady Chiara), and she asked my opinion of a question ਀琀栀愀琀 眀愀猀 愀猀欀攀搀 栀攀爀 愀琀 栀攀爀 瘀椀最椀氀⸀  䤀琀 猀攀攀洀猀 愀 挀漀甀瀀氀攀 漀昀 䄀洀琀最愀爀搀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀ഊhad asked her "why do you want to be a knight". She was not satisfied ਀眀椀琀栀 栀攀爀 愀渀猀眀攀爀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀猀欀攀搀 洀攀 眀栀愀琀 䤀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 琀漀氀搀 栀攀爀 琀栀愀琀 䤀 渀漀 氀漀渀最攀爀 栀愀瘀攀 愀渀礀 瀀愀爀琀椀挀甀氀愀爀 眀椀猀栀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀ഊOn the other hand, I do still want to live up to the ideals of knight- ਀栀漀漀搀 愀猀 戀攀猀琀 䤀 挀愀渀⸀  圀攀愀爀椀渀最 琀栀攀 戀攀氀琀 ☀ 挀栀愀椀渀Ⰰ 洀甀挀栀 愀猀 䤀 攀渀樀漀礀 椀琀ഊsometimes, is less important to me than knowing that I'm still doing ਀洀礀 戀攀猀琀 琀漀 戀攀 愀猀 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀漀甀猀Ⰰ 栀漀渀漀爀愀戀氀攀Ⰰ 挀漀甀爀琀攀漀甀猀Ⰰ 瀀甀椀猀猀愀渀琀Ⰰ 攀琀挀⸀ 愀猀ഊI can. ਀ഊAt the party for Sir Conor's knighting, Earl Kien and I were sitting ਀漀甀琀 戀愀挀欀 眀椀琀栀 猀漀洀攀漀渀攀 眀栀漀 椀猀 渀漀琀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䌀漀渀漀爀✀猀 氀愀搀礀 猀琀甀挀欀ഊher head out the door to suggest that the non-knight go inside, and ਀䌀漀渀漀爀 挀漀洀攀 漀甀琀猀椀搀攀 猀漀 椀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 愀 戀攀氀琀攀搀 挀椀爀挀氀攀⸀  䤀 氀愀甀最栀攀搀 愀渀搀 ഊassured her that we had only to slap a white belt on the non-knight ਀愀渀搀 琀栀攀渀 栀攀✀搀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀  䤀琀 眀愀猀 愀 最爀攀愀琀 漀瀀瀀漀爀琀甀渀椀琀礀 昀漀爀 栀椀洀 琀漀ഊsay something modest like he wasn't ready for such a thing, but ਀栀攀 樀甀猀琀 氀愀甀最栀攀搀 愀渀搀 愀最爀攀攀搀⸀ഊ ਀䤀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 昀攀攀氀 琀栀愀琀 眀栀椀氀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 挀愀渀渀漀琀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 戀攀 琀栀攀 洀漀猀琀 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀漀甀猀Ⰰഊcourteous, honorable, etc. people around, knights _can_ be the ones ਀琀爀礀椀渀最 琀栀攀 栀愀爀搀攀猀琀⸀  䄀渀搀 洀礀 洀漀猀琀 挀漀洀洀漀渀 挀漀洀瀀氀愀椀渀琀 愀戀漀甀琀 洀礀 昀攀氀氀漀眀ഊknights is that some of them seem to think that, having been knighted, ਀琀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 琀栀攀爀攀昀漀爀攀 渀漀眀 挀攀爀琀椀昀椀攀搀 ∀挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀漀甀猀 攀渀漀甀最栀∀⸀ഊ ਀ⴀ 嘀椀猀挀漀甀渀琀 䜀愀氀攀渀 漀昀 䈀爀椀猀琀漀氀ഊ "noblesse oblige" ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 洀椀琀琀氀攀 愀琀 瀀愀渀椀砀⸀挀漀洀 ⠀䄀爀瘀愀氀 搀✀䔀猀瀀愀猀 一漀爀搀⤀ഊNewsgroups: rec.org.sca ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 䘀攀愀琀甀爀攀猀 漀昀 匀漀挀椀攀琀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 ഊDate: 30 Sep 1996 10:13:14 -0400 ਀伀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀㨀 倀䄀一䤀堀 倀甀戀氀椀挀 䄀挀挀攀猀猀 䤀渀琀攀爀渀攀琀 愀渀搀 唀渀椀砀Ⰰ 一夀䌀ഊ ਀䜀爀攀攀琀椀渀最猀 昀爀漀洀 䄀爀瘀愀氀℀ ഊ ਀䌀愀爀椀愀搀漀挀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ ਀㸀 䬀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀㨀ഊ> ਀㸀 ㄀⸀ 䤀猀 漀渀氀礀 挀漀渀昀攀爀爀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 猀漀瘀攀爀攀椀最渀ഊ> 2. Requires one to be in direct allegiance to the sovereign ਀㸀 ㌀⸀ 䤀猀 爀攀挀漀最渀椀稀攀搀 挀栀椀攀昀氀礀 戀礀 琀栀攀 眀攀愀爀椀渀最 漀昀 愀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最ഊ> forbidden to everyone else. ਀㸀 㐀⸀ 䤀猀 愀渀 漀爀搀攀爀 眀栀椀挀栀Ⰰ 眀椀琀栀椀渀 攀愀挀栀 欀椀渀最搀漀洀Ⰰ 栀愀猀 愀 挀漀爀瀀漀爀愀琀攀 攀砀椀猀琀攀渀挀攀 愀渀搀ഊ> the duty to advise the sovereign on adding new members to it, and the ਀㸀 爀椀最栀琀 琀漀 戀攀 挀漀渀猀甀氀琀攀搀 甀瀀漀渀 愀搀搀椀渀最 渀攀眀 洀攀洀戀攀爀猀⸀ഊ> 5. Is conferred upon that small minority of potential candidates who are ਀㸀 攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀氀礀 猀欀椀氀氀攀搀 椀渀 挀漀洀戀愀琀Ⰰ 愀猀 眀攀氀氀 愀猀 愀琀 氀攀愀猀琀 洀椀渀椀洀愀氀氀礀 挀甀氀琀甀爀攀搀 愀渀搀ഊ> possessed of the relevant virtues. ਀㸀 ഊ> Which of these is true of medieval knighthood? ਀ഊObviously, none of these is true of medieval knighthood. However, it is ਀眀漀爀琀栀 渀漀琀椀渀最 琀栀愀琀 椀琀攀洀猀 ⠀㄀⤀Ⰰ ⠀㈀⤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 ⠀㔀⤀ 愀爀攀 愀氀氀 琀爀甀攀 漀昀 ㄀㐀琀栀 愀渀搀 ㄀㔀琀栀ഊcentury chivalric orders founded by great princes. The use of a white belt ਀愀猀 琀栀攀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 漀昀 琀栀攀 漀爀搀攀爀Ⰰ ⠀㌀⤀Ⰰ 椀猀 焀甀椀琀攀 挀漀渀猀椀猀琀攀渀琀 眀椀琀栀 琀栀攀 琀礀瀀攀 漀昀ഊinsignia used by these orders, though the absolute reservation to ਀挀漀洀瀀愀渀椀漀渀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 漀爀搀攀爀 椀猀 渀漀琀⸀  䠀愀瘀椀渀最 愀 猀椀渀最氀攀 漀爀搀攀爀 眀椀琀栀 戀爀愀渀挀栀攀猀 猀眀漀爀渀ഊto different kings is a thing without period precedent, but the rest of ਀椀琀攀洀 ⠀㐀⤀ 椀猀 琀礀瀀椀挀愀氀 漀昀 洀漀渀愀爀挀栀椀挀愀氀 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀椀挀 漀爀搀攀爀猀⸀ഊ ਀䤀渀 猀栀漀爀琀Ⰰ 匀漀挀椀攀琀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 椀猀 渀漀琀 愀琀 愀氀氀 猀琀爀甀挀琀甀爀愀氀氀礀 猀椀洀椀氀愀爀 琀漀 洀攀搀椀攀瘀愀氀ഊknighthood, but it is quite similar to late medieval & renaissance ਀挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀椀挀 漀爀搀攀爀猀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 䜀愀爀琀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 匀琀愀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 䌀漀氀氀愀爀Ⰰ 攀琀挀⸀ഊ=========================================================================== ਀䄀爀瘀愀氀 搀✀䔀猀瀀愀猀 一漀爀搀                                         洀椀琀琀氀攀 愀琀 瀀愀渀椀砀⸀挀漀洀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:10:23 -0600 (CST+ ਀吀漀㨀 愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 愀琀 攀搀攀渀⸀挀漀洀ഊFrom: amazing at mail.utexas.edu (dennis grace) ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 倀爀漀眀攀猀猀ഊ ਀䰀愀搀礀 䐀攀椀爀搀爀攀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ>Did anyone take the time to read the introduction in the newest "Complete ਀㸀䄀渀愀挀栀爀漀渀椀猀琀∀Ⰰ 瘀漀氀 㠀㠀ⴀⴀ ∀䈀攀礀漀渀搀 倀爀漀眀攀猀猀∀㼀㼀 ഊ>I did. Found out that according to Maurice Keen in his book "Chivalry", ਀㸀瀀爀漀眀攀猀猀Ⰰ 猀欀椀氀氀 愀琀 愀爀洀猀 愀渀搀 猀琀爀攀渀最琀栀 漀昀 戀漀搀礀Ⰰ 椀猀 漀渀氀礀 琀栀攀 昀椀爀猀琀 漀昀 猀椀砀ഊ>virtues necessary to become a knight. ਀㸀嘀攀爀礀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀椀渀最⸀ 匀甀戀挀漀渀猀挀椀漀甀猀氀礀Ⰰ 䤀 琀栀椀渀最 椀 欀渀攀眀 琀栀椀猀⸀  䴀愀搀攀 洀攀 爀愀琀栀攀爀ഊ>curious though. Prowess is the only one mentioned. What are the other ਀㸀昀椀瘀攀㼀ഊ ਀一漀Ⰰ 䤀 栀愀瘀攀渀✀琀 爀攀愀搀 琀栀攀 氀愀琀攀猀琀 䌀䄀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 愀甀琀栀漀爀 栀愀猀 漀瘀攀爀猀椀洀瀀氀椀昀椀攀搀 䬀攀攀渀✀猀ഊexplanations. The majority of Keen's text _Chivalry_ is dedicated to ਀搀攀琀攀爀洀椀渀椀渀最 琀栀攀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀猀 琀栀愀琀 挀漀洀瀀爀椀猀攀搀 琀栀攀 攀瘀愀渀攀猀挀攀渀琀 椀搀攀愀 眀攀 挀愀氀氀ഊ"chivalry." Early in his text, Keen remarks, "From a very early stage we ਀昀椀渀搀 琀栀攀 爀漀洀愀渀琀椀挀 愀甀琀栀漀爀猀 栀愀戀椀琀甀愀氀氀礀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀椀渀最 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀 焀甀愀氀椀琀椀攀猀ഊwhich they clearly regarded as the classic virtues of good knighthood: ਀瀀爀漀甀攀猀猀攀Ⰰ 氀漀礀愀甀琀攀✀Ⰰ 氀愀爀最攀猀猀攀 ⠀最攀渀攀爀漀猀椀瘀礀⤀Ⰰ 挀漀甀爀琀漀椀猀椀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 昀爀愀渀挀栀椀猀攀 ⠀琀栀攀ഊfree and frank bearing that is visible testimony to the combination of good ਀戀椀爀琀栀 眀椀琀栀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀⤀⸀ഊ ਀䬀攀攀渀 氀愀琀攀爀 挀椀琀攀猀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 眀栀椀挀栀 氀椀猀琀㨀  ഊ "those who are bons, saiges et cortois, preux et vaillans" [good, ਀眀椀猀攀Ⰰ 挀漀甀爀琀攀漀甀猀Ⰰ 洀愀爀琀椀愀氀氀礀 挀漀洀瀀攀琀攀渀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 瘀愀氀椀愀渀琀崀⸀ഊ "Manheit, Milte, Zuht, and Trowve. . . the direct analogues of ਀䘀爀攀渀挀栀 瀀爀漀甀攀猀猀攀Ⰰ 氀愀爀最攀猀猀攀Ⰰ 挀漀甀爀琀漀椀猀椀攀 愀渀搀 氀漀礀愀甀琀攀✀⸀∀ 嬀䤀渀 琀栀攀 䜀攀爀洀愀渀 挀甀氀琀 漀昀ഊRitterschaft and Ere.] ਀ഊKeen talks about the church's gradual encroachment upon the rites of ਀欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 栀攀 渀攀瘀攀爀 搀椀猀挀甀猀猀攀猀 琀栀攀 瘀椀爀琀甀攀 ∀瀀椀攀琀礀⸀∀ഊ ਀䬀攀攀渀✀猀 开䌀栀椀瘀愀氀爀礀开 椀猀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 琀栀攀 洀漀猀琀 昀爀攀焀甀攀渀琀氀礀 挀椀琀攀搀 猀漀甀爀挀攀 漀渀 挀攀爀攀洀漀渀椀攀猀ഊand virtues of knoghthood, but the work is rather thinly encyclopedic. It ਀搀漀攀猀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 爀攀昀攀爀攀渀挀攀 猀漀洀攀 琀攀爀爀椀昀椀挀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀⸀ ഊ ਀匀椀爀 䰀礀漀渀攀氀 伀氀椀瘀攀爀 䜀爀愀挀攀ഊ ਀ഊDate: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:06:15 -0600 ਀吀漀㨀 洀愀爀欀栀 愀琀 爀椀猀挀⸀猀瀀猀⸀洀漀琀⸀挀漀洀 ⠀䴀愀爀欀 匀⸀ 䠀愀爀爀椀猀⤀ഊFrom: Hollie Hoffman ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 䐀攀氀攀洀洀愀 昀漀爀 愀 渀攀眀 䄀甀琀漀挀爀愀琀ഊ ਀䄀琀 ㈀㌀㨀㄀㘀 ㄀㈀ⴀ㈀㤀ⴀ㤀㘀 ⴀ　㘀　　Ⰰ 䴀愀爀欀 匀⸀ 䠀愀爀爀椀猀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ>> If Sir ਀㸀㸀 䬀漀瀀攀氀 挀愀渀 戀攀 愀眀愀爀搀攀搀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 昀漀爀 猀漀洀攀琀栀椀渀最 开栀攀开 搀椀搀 洀甀渀搀愀渀攀氀礀ഊ>> (risking his life to help a rape victim), ਀㸀ഊ>This is not something I have heard of. Can you give me more details, ਀㸀瀀氀攀愀猀攀㼀ഊ> ਀㸀  匀琀攀昀愀渀 氀椀 刀漀甀猀ഊ ਀䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 愀 氀漀琀 愀 搀攀琀愀椀氀猀 愀猀 椀琀 栀愀瀀瀀攀渀攀搀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 䤀 樀漀椀渀攀搀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀⸀  䘀爀漀洀ഊwhat I know, many years ago he heard a woman screaming and upon ਀椀渀瘀攀猀琀椀最愀琀椀漀渀 昀漀甀渀搀 栀攀爀 戀攀椀渀最 爀愀瀀攀搀⸀ 䠀攀 昀漀甀最栀琀 漀昀昀 栀攀爀 愀琀琀愀挀欀攀爀 愀渀搀 眀愀猀 栀甀爀琀ഊbadly enough to be hospitalized in the process. The knights in the kingdom ਀栀攀 氀椀瘀攀搀 椀渀 愀琀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 ⠀䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 椀琀 眀愀猀 琀栀攀 䔀愀猀琀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 䤀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 眀爀漀渀最⤀ 昀攀氀琀ഊthat this act was a true example of chivalry and knighted him for it even ਀琀栀漀甀最栀 栀攀 眀愀猀渀✀琀 愀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀⸀ 䠀攀 氀椀瘀攀猀 椀渀 猀漀甀琀栀攀爀渀 吀爀椀洀愀爀椀猀 氀愀猀琀 䤀 栀攀愀爀搀Ⰰഊthough I'm not sure how active he is these days. From what I was told when I ਀氀椀瘀攀搀 琀栀攀爀攀Ⰰ 猀椀渀挀攀 栀攀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 洀甀挀栀 攀砀瀀攀爀椀攀渀挀攀 眀椀琀栀 栀攀愀瘀礀 挀漀洀戀愀琀 眀栀愀琀 栀攀ഊconcentrates on teaching his squires is the concepts of chivalry and peerage. ਀ഊAnanda ਀ഊ ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 匀愀琀Ⰰ ㄀㔀 䘀攀戀 ㄀㤀㤀㜀 ㄀㜀㨀㌀　㨀㐀㜀 ⴀ　㠀　　ഊFrom: Galen of Bristol ਀伀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀㨀 䤀渀挀椀瀀椀攀渀琀 䌀漀氀氀攀最攀 漀昀 吀栀爀攀攀 䈀爀椀搀最攀猀ഊTo: ansteorra at eden.com ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 ⠀䰀漀渀最 爀攀瀀氀礀 爀攀最愀爀搀椀渀最 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀椀挀 瀀栀椀氀漀猀漀瀀栀礀⤀ 刀攀㨀 䄀氀攀砀椀猀✀猀 䰀椀猀琀ഊ ਀䘀漀爀最椀瘀攀 琀栀攀 焀甀漀琀攀 椀渀 昀甀氀氀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 椀琀✀猀 戀攀攀渀 愀眀栀椀氀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䤀✀瘀攀 氀攀琀 琀栀椀猀 ഊpercolate through my brain a bit... ਀ഊBaronman at aol.com wrote: ਀㸀   䌀漀渀挀攀爀渀椀渀最 愀氀氀 琀栀攀 眀漀爀欀 椀琀 琀愀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀挀漀洀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 琀栀甀猀 欀椀渀最搀漀洀 爀攀洀椀渀搀猀ഊ> me of a list compliles by our baronial senacheal Ld. Alexis- the list is ਀㸀 挀漀洀瀀椀氀攀搀 昀爀漀洀 愀 挀漀渀瘀攀爀猀愀琀椀漀渀 栀攀 栀愀搀  ⠀猀甀瀀瀀漀猀攀搀氀礀⤀ 眀椀琀栀 愀渀 漀渀 氀漀漀欀攀爀 愀琀ഊ> fighter practice. ਀㸀 伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⸀ഊ> Alexis: You have to spend lots of money and get you armor together. ਀㸀 伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⸀ 圀栀攀渀 䤀 最攀琀 洀礀 愀爀洀漀爀ഊ> together then I can be a knight? ਀㸀 䄀氀攀砀椀猀㨀 一漀ⴀ 礀漀甀 琀栀攀渀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀ഊ> Observer: I would like to be a knight in your group. When I get my armor ਀㸀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 愀渀搀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 䤀 挀愀渀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀㼀ഊ> Alexis: No- you have to get noticed by a knight and become his squire. ਀㸀 伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⸀ 圀栀攀渀 䤀 最攀琀 洀礀 愀爀洀漀爀ഊ> together and come to fighter practice, and become a squire, then I can be a ਀㸀 欀渀椀最栀琀㼀ഊ> Alexis: No- you have to win some major tounaments and alot of minor ਀㸀 琀漀甀爀渀愀洀攀渀琀猀 戀攀昀漀爀攀 礀漀甀 挀愀渀 戀攀挀漀洀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀ഊ> Observer: I would like to be a knight in your group. When I get my armor ਀㸀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 愀渀搀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 戀攀挀漀洀攀 愀 猀焀甀椀爀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 眀椀渀 愀氀漀琀 漀昀ഊ> tournaments, then I can be a knight? ਀㸀 䄀氀攀砀椀猀㨀 一漀ⴀ 礀漀甀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 戀攀 瘀漀琀攀搀 甀瀀漀渀 戀礀 愀氀漀琀 漀昀 漀琀栀攀爀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 眀栀漀 愀氀氀 栀愀瘀攀ഊ> to like you even though you have beaten them in the tournaments. ਀㸀 伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⸀ 圀栀攀渀 䤀 最攀琀 洀礀 愀爀洀漀爀ഊ> together and come to fighter practice, and become a squire, and win alot of ਀㸀 琀漀甀爀渀愀洀攀渀琀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 戀攀 瘀漀琀攀搀 甀瀀漀渀 戀礀 琀栀攀 漀琀栀攀爀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 愀氀氀 漀昀 眀栀漀洀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 氀椀欀攀ഊ> me, then I can be a knight? ਀㸀 䄀氀攀砀椀猀㨀 一漀ⴀ琀栀攀 䬀椀渀最 栀愀猀 琀漀 愀瀀瀀爀漀瘀攀 漀昀 礀漀甀 ⸀ഊ> Observer: I would like to be a knight in your group. When I get my armor ਀㸀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀 愀渀搀 挀漀洀攀 琀漀 昀椀最栀琀攀爀 瀀爀愀挀琀椀挀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 戀攀挀漀洀攀 愀 猀焀甀椀爀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 眀椀渀 愀氀漀琀 漀昀ഊ> tournaments, and be voted upon by the other knights all of whom have to like ਀㸀 洀攀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀瀀瀀爀漀瘀攀搀 戀礀 琀栀攀 欀椀渀最Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 䤀 挀愀渀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀㼀 䠀漀眀 氀漀渀最 椀猀 琀栀椀猀 最漀椀渀最ഊ> to take? ਀㸀 䄀氀攀砀椀猀㨀䄀戀漀甀琀 ㈀ 琀漀 ㄀　 礀攀愀爀猀⸀ഊ> Observer: Goodby--- ਀㸀 ഊ> Baron Bors ਀㸀                                                     攀砀ⴀ欀椀最栀琀 眀愀渀渀愀戀攀ഊ> soon to be ex- squire to Sir Ruric ( alias the party knight- now ਀㸀 欀渀漀眀渀 愀猀 刀甀爀椀挀 琀栀攀 椀渀瘀椀猀愀戀氀攀⤀  昀爀攀攀 愀琀 氀愀猀琀ⴀ 昀爀攀攀 愀琀 氀愀猀琀ⴀ琀栀愀渀欀 䜀漀搀ഊ ਀伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䤀 眀漀甀氀搀 氀椀欀攀 琀漀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 礀漀甀爀 最爀漀甀瀀⸀ഊGalen: Why? ਀伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䈀攀挀愀甀猀攀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 椀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 挀漀漀氀⸀ഊGalen: Trust me: if I can do it, it isn't cool. Look at us, a bunch of ਀愀最椀渀最Ⰰ 漀昀琀攀渀 漀瘀攀爀眀攀椀最栀琀 最甀礀猀Ⰰ 眀栀漀 栀愀瘀攀 ∀氀愀椀搀 搀漀眀渀 琀栀攀 洀攀氀愀渀挀栀漀氀礀 戀甀爀搀攀渀 漀昀ഊour sanity", running around spouting pious and pompous speeches and pretending ਀琀栀愀琀 眀攀✀爀攀 爀攀愀氀 ∀欀渀椀最栀琀猀∀℀  吀栀愀琀✀猀 渀漀琀 挀漀漀氀 戀礀 愀渀礀 搀攀昀椀渀椀琀椀漀渀 䤀 攀瘀攀爀 栀攀愀爀搀⸀ഊObserver: But it looks like fun! ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  圀栀椀挀栀 瀀愀爀琀㼀  吀栀攀 昀椀最栀琀椀渀最㼀  䜀漀 昀椀最栀琀℀  夀漀甀 搀漀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 戀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀ഊfor that! Get your armor together -- it won't even cost as much as many other ਀猀瀀漀爀琀猀 礀漀甀 洀椀最栀琀 琀愀欀攀 甀瀀⸀  䐀甀欀攀 䤀渀洀愀渀 眀椀氀氀 猀琀椀氀氀 猀攀氀氀 愀 栀攀氀洀Ⰰ 欀渀攀攀 ☀ 攀氀戀漀眀 挀漀瀀猀Ⰰഊbasket hilt and shield basket for just about $100 for new fighters. The rest ਀礀漀甀 挀愀渀 洀愀欀攀 礀漀甀爀猀攀氀昀⸀ഊObserver: But isn't there more to it than that? What about honor? And ਀挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀礀㼀ഊGalen: What do you think those words mean, anyway? ਀伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  圀攀氀氀Ⰰ 䤀 最甀攀猀猀 栀漀渀漀爀 眀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 搀漀 眀椀琀栀 戀攀椀渀最 栀漀渀攀猀琀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 琀爀礀椀渀最ഊto do things for other people, and chivalry would be ... what? Is that like ਀最漀漀搀 猀瀀漀爀琀猀洀愀渀猀栀椀瀀㼀ഊGalen: Not a bad beginning. Do you think you'd like to be with a group of ਀瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 眀栀漀 爀攀猀瀀攀挀琀 礀漀甀爀 戀攀栀愀瘀椀漀甀爀 昀漀爀 戀攀椀渀最 栀漀渀漀爀愀戀氀攀 愀渀搀 挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀漀甀猀㼀  䐀漀 礀漀甀ഊthink you'd respect yourself for always being like that? ਀伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  䄀氀眀愀礀猀㼀ഊGalen: You'd always need be doing your best to be honorable and chivalrous, ਀攀瘀攀渀 眀栀攀渀 礀漀甀✀爀攀 椀渀 愀 栀甀爀爀礀Ⰰ 漀爀 琀椀爀攀搀Ⰰ 漀爀 搀爀甀渀欀⸀  夀漀甀 挀愀渀 渀攀瘀攀爀 猀愀礀Ⰰ ∀䤀 搀漀渀✀琀ഊneed to be like that _now_." ਀伀戀猀攀爀瘀攀爀㨀  一漀戀漀搀礀 挀愀渀 搀漀 琀栀愀琀℀ഊGalen: Nobody can do it perfectly. But anyone can try. Some come closer ਀琀漀 猀甀挀挀攀猀猀 琀栀愀渀 漀琀栀攀爀猀⸀  吀栀攀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 椀猀Ⰰ 栀漀眀 猀甀挀挀攀猀猀昀甀氀 挀愀渀 开礀漀甀开 戀攀㼀ഊObserver: So, all the knights do that? And are mostly successful? ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  䤀 眀椀猀栀 䤀 挀漀甀氀搀 琀攀氀氀 礀漀甀 礀攀猀 琀漀 琀栀愀琀⸀  䈀甀琀 琀栀攀 琀爀甀琀栀 椀猀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀琀椀洀攀猀ഊa person gets knighted and stops trying; he thinks "I've made it, I'm ਀挀栀椀瘀愀氀爀漀甀猀 攀渀漀甀最栀 渀漀眀⸀∀  伀琀栀攀爀 琀椀洀攀猀Ⰰ 猀漀洀攀漀渀攀 眀栀漀 渀攀瘀攀爀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 搀椀搀 琀爀礀 洀椀最栀琀ഊget knighted. But just because they were knighted, doesn't mean they're ਀欀渀椀最栀琀猀Ⰰ 爀攀愀氀氀礀⸀  匀漀洀攀 眀漀甀氀搀 琀攀氀氀 礀漀甀 琀栀愀琀 䤀✀洀 渀漀琀 开爀攀愀氀氀礀开 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀Ⰰ 攀瘀攀渀ഊthough I was knighted. You'll have to learn to judge each knight for yourself, ਀琀漀 搀攀挀椀搀攀 椀昀 栀攀✀猀 爀攀愀氀氀礀 琀爀礀椀渀最 栀椀猀 戀攀猀琀 琀漀 戀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀氀礀㬀 戀攀挀愀甀猀攀 琀栀愀琀Ⰰ 洀漀爀攀ഊthan anything else, is what makes a person a knight. The belt, the chain, ਀琀栀攀 挀攀爀攀洀漀渀礀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀✀猀 愀氀氀 昀漀爀 猀栀漀眀㬀 椀琀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 挀栀愀渀最攀 眀栀愀琀 礀漀甀 愀爀攀⸀ഊObserver: Only Superman could do that! ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  䈀攀椀渀最 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 椀猀 琀栀攀 挀氀漀猀攀猀琀 琀栀椀渀最 䤀 欀渀漀眀 琀漀 戀攀椀渀最ഊa comic book superhero, in many ways. Belted circles often resemble a ਀洀攀攀琀椀渀最 漀昀 琀栀攀 䨀甀猀琀椀挀攀 䰀攀愀最甀攀⸀ഊObserver: Oh, please! The Avengers at least! ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  䤀 琀漀氀搀 礀漀甀 椀琀 眀愀猀渀✀琀 挀漀漀氀⸀ഊObserver: So if I'm trying all the time to be as chivalrous and honorable ਀愀猀 䤀 挀愀渀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 挀愀渀 䤀 戀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀㼀ഊGalen: When you are not only trying, but succeeding as well as a knight ਀猀栀漀甀氀搀 猀甀挀挀攀攀搀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀琀椀氀氀 琀爀礀椀渀最 栀愀爀搀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 䤀✀氀氀 戀爀椀渀最 礀漀甀 甀瀀 椀渀 琀栀攀ഊcircle myself. If you've shown enough of the other knights that you are ਀愀氀爀攀愀搀礀 琀栀攀椀爀 攀焀甀愀氀 漀渀 漀爀 漀昀昀 琀栀攀 昀椀攀氀搀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 礀漀甀✀爀攀 猀琀椀氀氀 琀爀礀椀渀最 琀漀 椀洀瀀爀漀瘀攀ഊyourself, they'll advise the king that it'd be a good idea to knight you. ਀䤀昀 琀栀攀 欀椀渀最 愀最爀攀攀猀Ⰰ 琀栀攀渀 栀攀✀氀氀 欀渀椀最栀琀 礀漀甀⸀ഊObserver: How long does this take? ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  吀栀愀琀 搀攀瀀攀渀搀猀 漀渀 礀漀甀⸀  䤀✀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 椀琀 搀漀渀攀 椀渀 琀栀爀攀攀 礀攀愀爀猀⸀  䄀 昀爀椀攀渀搀 漀昀 ഊmine just got knighted in another kingdom after 20 years of trying. But the ਀栀愀爀搀 瀀愀爀琀 椀猀 愀昀琀攀爀 礀漀甀✀爀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀⸀  吀栀攀渀 礀漀甀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 欀攀攀瀀 眀漀爀欀椀渀最 琀漀 猀琀椀氀氀ഊbe more knightly, keep your skills up, and speak your mind whenever you see ਀琀栀攀 挀椀爀挀氀攀 最漀椀渀最 眀爀漀渀最Ⰰ 攀瘀攀渀 椀昀 琀栀攀 爀攀猀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 搀椀猀愀最爀攀攀⸀  䄀渀搀 猀漀洀攀ഊpeople will tell you they look up to you, that you're the epitome of knighthood, ਀愀渀搀 漀琀栀攀爀猀Ⰰ 椀渀挀氀甀搀椀渀最 猀漀洀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀Ⰰ 眀椀氀氀 猀愀礀 礀漀甀 渀攀瘀攀爀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀ഊknighted, so you can never be sure how well you're doing, unless you can ਀猀愀礀 琀栀愀琀 礀漀甀✀爀攀 搀漀椀渀最 礀漀甀爀 戀攀猀琀⸀ഊObserver: That's heavy! ਀䜀愀氀攀渀㨀  䤀琀 椀猀⸀  吀攀氀氀 礀漀甀 眀栀愀琀㨀  搀漀渀✀琀 眀漀爀爀礀 愀戀漀甀琀 椀琀 渀漀眀⸀  䰀攀琀 洀攀 最攀琀 琀栀攀ഊknight marshal over here, we'll get you into the loaner armor, and I'll give ਀礀漀甀 愀 氀攀猀猀漀渀 漀爀 琀眀漀 愀渀搀 猀攀攀 栀漀眀 礀漀甀 氀椀欀攀 琀栀攀 昀椀最栀琀椀渀最⸀ഊObserver: Sure! That sounds great! ਀ഊBors - ਀ഊYou guys have _got_ to quit letting cynical Seneschals -- or Barons -- talk ਀琀漀 礀漀甀爀 渀攀眀挀漀洀攀爀猀⸀  夀漀甀✀氀氀 氀漀猀攀 洀漀爀攀 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 琀栀愀琀 眀愀礀⸀⸀⸀℀ഊ ਀ⴀ 䜀愀氀攀渀ഊ-- ਀嘀椀猀挀漀甀渀琀 䜀愀氀攀渀 漀昀 䈀爀椀猀琀漀氀Ⰰ 䬀匀䌀䄀Ⰰ 䌀匀䴀Ⰰ 攀琀挀⸀ഊPaul Mitchell, pmitchel at flash.net / "noblesse oblige" ਀ഊ ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 䄀一匀吀 ⴀ 刀攀㨀 䈀䜀 ⴀ 吀漀甀爀渀攀礀 搀✀䄀洀漀爀攀ഊDate: Thu, 05 Nov 98 09:32:28 MST ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 稀愀爀氀漀爀 愀琀 愀挀洀⸀漀爀最 ⠀䰀攀渀渀礀 娀椀洀洀攀爀洀愀渀渀⤀ഊTo: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG ਀ഊOn Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:23:02 -0600, Ritter Dietrich wrote: ਀㸀䤀 眀愀猀 愀挀琀甀愀氀氀礀 琀栀攀爀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 琀漀甀爀渀攀礀 愀渀搀 眀愀猀 眀椀琀渀攀猀猀 琀漀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 漀昀 琀栀攀ഊ>actual reasons that the barrier was set aside when the rapier combatants ਀㸀琀漀漀欀 琀栀攀 昀椀攀氀搀⸀  吀栀攀 洀愀椀渀 爀攀愀猀漀渀 䤀 栀攀愀爀搀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀爀攀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 挀漀洀戀愀琀愀渀琀猀 眀愀猀ഊ>that it was essentially quite absurd to use it. ਀㸀ഊ>To elucidate: even though barrier combat was, in fact, at the height of it's ਀㸀瀀漀瀀甀氀愀爀椀琀礀 椀渀 琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 漀昀 䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 昀愀挀琀 椀猀 琀栀愀琀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 挀漀洀瀀攀琀椀渀最 椀渀ഊ>combat *at* a barrier in one of those tourneys would have been in a full ਀㸀挀甀椀爀愀椀猀猀 愀渀搀 甀猀椀渀最 愀 最爀攀愀琀猀眀漀爀搀⸀ഊ ਀䈀爀漀愀搀猀眀漀爀搀 漀爀 猀瀀攀愀爀 眀愀猀 愀氀猀漀 瘀攀爀礀 挀漀洀洀漀渀⸀ഊ ਀㸀  䄀搀搀椀琀椀漀渀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 眀栀攀渀 昀椀最栀琀椀渀最 愀琀 琀栀攀 戀愀爀爀椀攀爀ഊ>it was/is considered to be rude if one uses a thrust- this makes it somewhat ਀㸀搀椀昀昀椀挀甀氀琀 眀栀攀渀 甀猀椀渀最 愀 爀愀瀀椀攀爀Ⰰ 搀漀攀猀 椀琀 渀漀琀㼀ഊ ਀䈀礀 琀栀攀 爀甀氀攀猀 眀攀 甀猀攀 昀漀爀 爀愀瀀椀攀爀 挀漀洀戀愀琀Ⰰ 礀攀猀⸀ ⠀刀愀瀀椀攀爀猀 眀攀爀攀 渀漀琀 愀 琀栀爀甀猀琀ഊonly weapon, but for safety reasons we don't allow "hacking" with the ਀眀攀愀瀀漀渀猀⸀⤀ഊ ਀㸀  吀栀攀猀攀 昀愀挀琀猀 挀漀洀戀椀渀攀搀 琀漀 洀愀欀攀 愀ഊ>fairly strong case for fighting to first blood as well as not using the ਀㸀戀愀爀爀椀攀爀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀䤀✀洀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀 琀栀愀琀 眀攀 挀漀甀氀搀 栀愀瘀攀 挀漀洀攀 甀瀀 眀椀琀栀 愀 猀漀爀琀 漀昀 瀀爀攀洀椀猀攀 昀漀爀 甀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀ഊ>barrier (fighting ship to ship over a railing or something) but no one at ਀㸀琀栀攀 琀椀洀攀 挀漀甀氀搀 琀栀椀渀欀 甀瀀 愀渀礀琀栀椀渀最 瀀氀愀甀猀椀戀氀攀⸀  倀攀爀栀愀瀀猀 渀攀砀琀 礀攀愀爀 眀攀✀氀氀 戀攀 洀漀爀攀ഊ>prepared and think up a suitable scenario but in the meantime please know ਀㸀琀栀愀琀 琀栀攀爀攀 眀愀猀 猀漀洀攀 猀漀甀渀搀 樀甀搀最攀洀攀渀琀 昀漀爀 渀漀琀 甀猀椀渀最 琀栀愀琀 眀漀渀搀攀爀昀甀氀 瀀椀攀挀攀 漀昀ഊ>wood for trials of fence. ਀ഊOf course, the fighting a boarding action with rapiers is not really ਀愀氀氀 琀栀愀琀 瀀氀愀甀猀椀戀氀攀Ⰰ 戀礀 琀栀椀猀 爀攀愀猀漀渀椀渀最Ⰰ 攀椀琀栀攀爀Ⰰ 愀猀 猀漀洀攀漀渀攀 攀氀猀攀ഊdutifully pointed out. Come to think of it, unless we are recreating ਀琀栀攀 倀爀椀稀攀 䘀椀最栀琀猀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䰀漀渀搀漀渀 䴀愀猀琀攀爀猀 漀昀 䐀攀昀攀渀挀攀 ⠀眀栀漀 甀猀攀搀 昀愀爀 洀漀爀攀ഊthan just Rapiers and is a Middle Class construct, anyway) or are ਀爀攀挀爀攀愀琀椀渀最 愀 猀瀀愀爀爀椀渀最 洀愀琀挀栀 椀渀 愀 猀挀栀漀漀氀 漀昀 昀攀渀挀攀 漀爀 愀爀攀 挀漀洀瀀攀琀椀渀最 椀渀ഊthe period sport of fencing (which many of us are still researching), ਀渀漀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀栀椀渀最猀 眀攀 搀漀 漀渀 琀栀攀 昀椀攀氀搀 愀爀攀 ∀爀椀最栀琀∀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 愀氀氀 挀漀渀猀琀爀甀挀琀猀⸀ 䤀 眀椀氀氀 猀愀礀Ⰰ 栀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀 䤀 瀀爀攀昀攀爀 琀漀 氀漀漀欀 琀漀ഊthe methods used in our studied time periods to use as the basis for ਀爀攀挀爀攀愀琀椀漀渀⸀ 䄀渀搀 椀渀 琀栀愀琀 猀攀渀猀攀 愀 戀愀爀爀椀攀爀 挀漀洀戀愀琀 椀猀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 昀愀爀 洀漀爀攀ഊacceptable than a "boarding action". (What can I say, my persona is a ਀氀愀渀搀ⴀ氀甀戀戀椀渀最 渀漀戀氀攀 眀栀漀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 栀愀瘀攀 愀 挀氀甀攀 眀栀愀琀 愀渀 ∀䔀氀椀稀愀戀攀琀栀愀渀∀ 挀漀甀爀琀ഊis, since it's a few decades past his time.) I guess what it comes ਀搀漀眀渀 琀漀 椀猀 琀栀愀琀 愀渀礀 最爀漀甀瀀 漀昀 挀漀洀戀愀琀愀渀琀猀Ⰰ 戀攀 琀栀攀礀 愀爀洀漀爀攀搀 漀爀 甀渀愀爀洀漀爀攀搀Ⰰഊwill decide to try and play at what they think will be most enjoyable ਀昀漀爀 琀栀攀洀 愀渀搀 栀攀氀瀀 琀栀攀洀 椀渀 琀栀攀椀爀 愀琀琀攀洀瀀琀猀 愀琀 爀攀挀爀攀愀琀椀漀渀⸀ഊ ਀匀漀 䤀 最甀攀猀猀 䤀✀瘀攀 樀甀猀琀 洀愀搀攀 愀 渀漀渀ⴀ愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀⸀ 㨀ⴀ⤀ 䤀✀搀 樀甀猀琀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀 最甀攀猀猀ഊthat they didn't want to fight the barriers because they thought it ਀眀漀甀氀搀渀✀琀 戀攀 昀甀渀⸀ ⠀倀甀爀攀 挀漀渀樀攀挀琀甀爀攀 漀渀 洀礀 瀀愀爀琀Ⰰ 栀攀爀攀Ⰰ 愀猀 䤀 眀愀猀 渀漀琀ഊthere.) ਀ഊHonos Servio, ਀䰀椀漀渀愀爀搀漀 䄀挀焀甀椀猀琀愀瀀愀挀攀Ⰰ 䈀樀漀爀渀猀戀漀爀最ഊ(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio) ਀稀愀爀氀漀爀 愀琀 愀挀洀⸀漀爀最ഊ ਀∀䄀 猀漀氀搀椀攀爀 甀猀攀猀 愀爀洀猀 洀攀爀攀氀礀 眀椀琀栀 猀欀椀氀氀Ⰰ 眀栀攀爀攀愀猀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 甀猀攀猀 琀栀攀洀ഊwith virtuous intention. Mercenaries may be excellent soldiers; but ਀愀渀 愀挀琀椀漀渀 眀栀椀挀栀 洀愀礀 戀攀 瀀爀愀椀猀攀搀 椀渀 愀 猀漀氀搀椀攀爀 洀愀礀 戀攀 戀氀愀洀攀搀 椀渀 愀ഊknight. For a soldier, the goal is victory: for the knight, since he ਀椀猀 爀攀愀搀礀 琀漀 最漀Ⰰ 椀昀 渀攀挀攀猀猀愀爀礀Ⰰ 琀漀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀 搀攀猀琀爀甀挀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 最漀愀氀 椀猀ഊhonor." - Pomponio Torelli, 1596. ਀ഊ ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䄀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀崀 渀攀眀挀漀洀攀爀 琀栀愀渀欀猀ഊDate: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:16:10 -0600 ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 ∀䔀氀椀猀愀戀攀琀栀 䈀⸀ 娀愀欀攀猀∀ 㰀攀稀愀欀攀猀 愀琀 愀甀猀琀椀渀⸀爀爀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊTo: ਀ഊ> a. almost exclusively, a knight in the time period ਀㸀 眀栀椀挀栀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 爀攀挀爀攀愀琀攀猀Ⰰ 栀愀搀 琀漀 漀眀渀 愀 栀漀爀猀攀 愀渀搀 栀愀搀 琀漀ഊ> be able to field that horse - it was one of the ਀㸀 瀀爀椀洀愀爀礀 搀椀猀琀椀渀最甀椀猀栀椀渀最 挀栀愀爀愀挀琀攀爀椀猀琀椀挀猀 漀昀 戀攀椀渀最 愀ഊ> knight - ਀ഊThat all depends on your time period. In the Elizabethan period, which I ਀昀漀氀氀漀眀Ⰰ 瀀攀漀瀀氀攀 眀攀爀攀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 愀渀搀 最椀瘀攀渀 瀀攀攀爀愀最攀猀 昀漀爀 挀椀瘀椀氀 猀攀爀瘀椀挀攀⸀ 匀椀爀ഊFrancis Drake was knighted for his service to the Crown as a mariner and ਀愀搀搀椀渀最 琀漀 琀栀攀 欀椀渀最搀漀洀✀猀 挀漀昀昀攀爀猀⸀ 圀椀氀氀椀愀洀 䌀攀挀椀氀 䰀漀爀搀 䈀甀爀氀攀椀最栀 眀愀猀 最爀愀渀琀攀搀 栀椀猀ഊpeerage for serving the crown as Principal Secretary and Lord Treasurer. ਀一攀椀琀栀攀爀 漀昀 琀栀攀猀攀 瀀漀猀椀琀椀漀渀猀 爀攀焀甀椀爀攀搀 愀 栀漀爀猀攀⸀ 䬀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 椀猀 愀ഊpeerage (which is why I cited both examples) that requires exceptional ਀昀椀最栀琀椀渀最 愀戀椀氀椀琀礀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 ∀戀攀愀爀椀渀最 漀昀 愀 瀀攀攀爀Ⰰ∀ 愀洀漀渀最 漀琀栀攀爀 爀攀焀甀椀爀攀洀攀渀琀猀⸀ 吀栀攀ഊ"knighthood" that would be equivalent to Sir Francis' would be the Order of ਀琀栀攀 倀攀氀椀挀愀渀Ⰰ 愀氀猀漀 愀 瀀攀攀爀愀最攀Ⰰ 眀栀椀挀栀 眀漀甀氀搀 昀椀琀 戀漀琀栀 匀椀爀 䘀爀愀渀挀椀猀 愀渀搀 䰀漀爀搀ഊBurleigh. ਀ഊThe *structure* of the SCA isn't period--far from it--but some of us try to ਀戀攀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 椀猀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀 愀猀瀀攀挀琀猀 漀昀 漀甀爀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀愀氀 氀椀瘀攀猀⸀ 匀漀洀攀 搀漀 椀琀 洀漀爀攀 琀栀愀渀ഊothers, some less, but each to his own taste and financial ability. ਀ഊIf you want to make the SCA structure more period, I'd love to discuss it ਀眀椀琀栀 礀漀甀⸀ 䤀✀搀 愀氀猀漀 氀漀瘀攀 琀漀 栀愀瘀攀 䴀愀猀琀攀爀 吀愀搀最栀 愀渀搀 䴀愀猀琀攀爀 䐀愀渀椀攀氀 椀渀 漀渀 琀栀愀琀ഊdiscussion! :) ਀ഊAethelyan Moondragon ਀䈀爀礀渀 䜀眀氀愀搀ഊ ਀ഊFrom: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin) ਀一攀眀猀最爀漀甀瀀猀㨀 爀攀挀⸀漀爀最⸀猀挀愀ഊSubject: Re: History of white belts? ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 吀甀攀Ⰰ ㈀　 䴀愀礀 ㈀　　㌀ ㄀　㨀㔀㐀㨀㄀㔀 ⬀　　　　 ⠀唀吀䌀⤀ഊ ਀䌀栀爀椀猀 娀愀欀攀猀  㰀洀漀漀渀搀爀最渀 愀琀 愀甀猀琀椀渀⸀爀爀⸀挀漀洀㸀 眀爀漀琀攀㨀ഊ>This question came up on another list, and I figured there was a ਀㸀瀀爀攀琀琀礀 最漀漀搀 挀栀愀渀挀攀 琀栀愀琀 ⨀猀漀洀攀戀漀搀礀⨀ 栀攀爀攀 眀漀甀氀搀 欀渀漀眀 琀栀攀 愀渀猀眀攀爀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀䤀猀 琀栀攀爀攀 搀漀挀甀洀攀渀琀愀琀椀漀渀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀 愀猀 愀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 漀昀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀Ⰰഊ>or is this an SCA-created custom? ਀ഊMaurice Keen, in his _Chivalry_, talks about an anonymous poem ਀昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 ㄀㈀　　✀猀 挀愀氀氀攀搀 䰀✀伀爀搀攀渀攀 搀攀 䌀栀攀瘀愀氀攀爀椀攀Ⰰ 椀渀 眀栀椀挀栀 匀愀氀愀搀椀渀ഊinterrogates a captive knight about knighthood-specifically, how ਀愀 䘀爀愀渀欀 挀愀渀 最漀 昀爀漀洀 樀甀猀琀 愀 渀漀爀洀愀氀 最甀礀 琀漀 愀 最爀攀愀琀 眀愀爀爀椀漀爀⸀ 吀栀攀ഊcaptive knight, Hugh, takes Saladin through the entire dubbing ਀瀀爀漀挀攀猀猀Ⰰ 攀砀挀攀瀀琀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 昀椀渀愀氀 戀氀漀眀⸀ 伀渀攀 漀昀 琀栀攀 猀琀攀瀀猀 眀愀猀 瀀甀琀琀椀渀最ഊon a white belt, to symbolize chastity. ਀ഊIt sounds far more likely that this was worn only during the ਀搀甀戀戀椀渀最Ⰰ 椀昀 琀栀椀猀 眀愀猀 愀渀 愀挀挀甀爀愀琀攀 搀攀猀挀爀椀瀀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀 搀甀戀戀椀渀最 搀甀爀椀渀最ഊthe High Middle Ages, rather than something which a knight of the ਀琀椀洀攀 眀漀爀攀 攀瘀攀爀礀 搀愀礀⸀ഊ ਀倀攀搀爀漀ഊ ਀㸀䐀椀搀 礀漀甀 渀漀琀 愀猀欀 眀栀礀 愀最愀椀渀猀琀 漀渀攀 洀愀渀 琀栀攀礀 猀攀渀搀 愀 栀甀渀搀爀攀搀 猀眀漀爀搀猀㼀ഊ>Because they know this one man for a friend of mine! ਀㸀ഊ> -Cyrano in "Cyrano de Bergerac" by Edmond Rostand ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䘀愀攀氀愀渀 䌀愀椀洀戀攀甀氀 㰀昀愀攀氀愀渀挀愀椀洀戀攀甀氀 愀琀 最洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊDate: June 21, 2006 11:40:34 PM CDT ਀吀漀㨀 ∀✀䬀椀渀最搀漀洀 漀昀 䄀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 ⴀ 匀䌀䄀Ⰰ  䤀渀挀⸀✀∀ 㰀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Ansteorra] Spurs (was:Squire belts (was: Sable Thistle...etc.) ਀ഊI once had a Knight explain all this to me thusly: ਀ഊThe chain is a symbol of fealty and service, nothing more. By that ਀搀攀昀椀渀椀琀椀漀渀Ⰰ 愀渀礀漀渀攀 眀栀漀 猀攀愀爀猀 昀攀愀氀琀礀 琀漀 琀栀攀椀爀 䰀漀爀搀Ⰰ 䈀愀爀漀渀 漀爀 䬀椀渀最 眀漀甀氀搀 戀攀ഊentitled to wear it (yes, I came from one of THOSE kingdoms). ਀ഊThe spurs were nothing more, historically, than a tool used to ride a horse. ਀吀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 洀愀搀攀 琀栀攀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀椀漀渀 戀攀挀愀甀猀攀 渀漀爀洀愀氀氀礀 漀渀氀礀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 栀愀搀 琀栀攀 洀漀渀攀礀 琀漀ഊafford a riding horse. However, many nobles as well had horses, and many ਀攀焀甀攀猀琀爀椀愀渀猀 琀漀搀愀礀 栀愀瘀攀 栀漀爀猀攀猀 愀渀搀 挀漀爀爀攀猀瀀漀渀搀椀渀最 栀漀爀猀攀猀栀漀攀猀 琀漀漀Ⰰ 攀瘀攀渀 琀栀漀甀最栀ഊthey are not knights; and so the spurs were not indicative of a knight ਀攀椀琀栀攀爀⸀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀 椀猀 愀 瀀甀爀攀氀礀 匀䌀䄀 琀栀椀渀最⸀ 䤀琀✀猀 椀渀 氀愀眀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 漀渀氀礀 漀昀昀椀挀椀愀氀ഊsymbol of knighthood. In period, a white belt simply meant you had a white ਀戀攀氀琀Ⰰ 栀漀瀀攀昀甀氀氀礀 洀愀琀挀栀椀渀最 礀漀甀爀 攀渀猀攀洀戀氀攀 ⠀戀甀琀 洀漀爀攀 琀栀愀渀 氀椀欀攀氀礀 渀漀琀⤀⸀ ഊ ਀吀栀攀爀攀昀漀爀攀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 漀渀氀礀 琀爀甀攀 椀渀搀椀挀愀琀椀漀渀 漀昀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 椀猀 栀椀猀 栀攀愀爀琀⸀ 䠀漀眀 栀攀 挀愀爀爀椀攀猀ഊhimself, how he treats others, how he pursues art and culture, protects the ਀眀攀愀欀Ⰰ 氀攀愀搀猀 愀渀搀 最攀渀攀爀愀氀氀礀 洀愀欀攀猀 愀 最漀漀搀 攀昀昀漀爀琀 琀漀 戀攀 琀栀攀 戀攀猀琀 瀀攀爀猀漀渀Ⰰ 琀栀攀ഊbest warrior, he can be. This means that we can find many a "knight" who has ਀渀攀瘀攀爀 栀愀搀 愀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀Ⰰ 猀瀀甀爀猀 漀爀 愀 挀栀愀椀渀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 猀栀漀甀氀搀㬀 愀渀搀 猀攀瘀攀爀愀氀 眀栀漀 搀漀ഊhave this things and shouldn't. ਀ഊFaelan ਀ഊ ਀䘀爀漀洀㨀 䨀攀愀渀 倀愀甀氀 搀攀 匀攀渀猀 㰀樀攀愀渀瀀愀甀氀搀攀猀攀渀猀 愀琀 最洀愀椀氀⸀挀漀洀㸀ഊDate: June 22, 2006 12:48:10 AM CDT ਀吀漀㨀 ∀䬀椀渀最搀漀洀 漀昀 䄀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 ⴀ 匀䌀䄀Ⰰ 䤀渀挀⸀∀ 㰀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀 愀琀 氀椀猀琀猀⸀愀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀⸀漀爀最㸀ഊSubject: Re: [Ansteorra] Spurs (was:Squire belts (was: Sable Thistle...etc.) ਀ഊOn 6/21/06, Faelan Caimbeul wrote: ਀㰀㰀㰀 吀栀攀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀 椀猀 愀 瀀甀爀攀氀礀 匀䌀䄀 琀栀椀渀最⸀ 䤀琀✀猀 椀渀 氀愀眀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 漀渀氀礀 漀昀昀椀挀椀愀氀ഊsymbol of knighthood. In period, a white belt simply meant you had a white ਀戀攀氀琀Ⰰ 栀漀瀀攀昀甀氀氀礀 洀愀琀挀栀椀渀最 礀漀甀爀 攀渀猀攀洀戀氀攀 ⠀戀甀琀 洀漀爀攀 琀栀愀渀 氀椀欀攀氀礀 渀漀琀⤀⸀ 㸀㸀㸀ഊ ਀一漀琀 琀爀甀攀⸀  䐀甀 䌀栀愀爀渀攀礀 猀愀礀猀 琀栀愀琀 愀 洀愀渀 愀戀漀甀琀 琀漀 戀攀 洀愀搀攀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀 猀栀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 搀爀攀猀猀攀搀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 挀攀爀攀洀漀渀礀 椀渀 愀 爀攀搀 琀甀渀椀挀 ⠀猀栀漀眀椀渀最 栀椀猀 眀椀氀氀椀渀最渀攀猀猀 琀漀 猀栀攀搀 栀椀猀 戀氀漀漀搀⤀Ⰰ 戀氀愀挀欀 栀漀猀攀 ⠀琀漀 猀礀洀戀漀氀椀稀攀 琀栀愀琀 栀攀 挀漀洀攀猀 昀爀漀洀 琀栀攀 攀愀爀琀栀⤀Ⰰ 愀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀 ⠀琀漀 猀栀漀眀 瀀甀爀椀琀礀⤀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 爀攀搀 挀氀漀愀欀 ⠀猀甀挀栀 愀猀 眀愀猀 眀漀爀渀 椀渀 愀渀琀椀焀甀椀琀礀⤀⸀ 䄀琀 琀栀攀 挀攀爀攀洀漀渀礀 栀攀✀猀 最椀瘀攀渀 猀瀀甀爀猀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 愀挀挀漀氀愀搀攀 椀猀 瀀攀爀昀漀爀洀攀搀⸀ ഊ ਀䨀倀ഊ ਀ഊFrom: Burke McCrory ਀䐀愀琀攀㨀 䨀甀渀攀 ㈀㈀Ⰰ ㈀　　㘀 ㌀㨀　㜀㨀㔀　 倀䴀 䌀䐀吀ഊTo: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." ਀匀甀戀樀攀挀琀㨀 刀攀㨀 嬀䄀渀猀琀攀漀爀爀愀崀 匀瀀甀爀猀 ⠀眀愀猀㨀匀焀甀椀爀攀 戀攀氀琀猀 ⠀眀愀猀㨀 匀愀戀氀攀  ഊThistle...etc.) ਀ഊYou know this conversation (or one just like it) comes up about once ਀攀瘀攀爀礀 礀攀愀爀 漀爀 猀漀 愀渀搀 椀琀 愀氀眀愀礀猀 攀渀搀猀 琀栀攀 猀愀洀攀 眀愀礀⸀  䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 椀猀ഊa side effect of a more basic question. Is the SCA an organization ਀琀栀愀琀 爀攀ⴀ挀爀攀愀琀攀猀 琀栀攀 挀甀氀琀甀爀攀猀 愀渀搀 氀椀昀攀猀琀礀氀攀 漀昀 愀 猀攀氀攀挀琀 猀攀最洀攀渀琀 漀昀ഊWestern European life in the period (600 AD to 1600 AD) or is it an ਀漀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 爀攀ⴀ攀渀愀挀琀猀 琀栀愀琀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀㼀ഊ ਀吀栀攀 焀甀攀猀琀椀漀渀 椀猀 洀漀爀攀 爀攀氀攀瘀愀渀琀 琀栀愀琀 猀漀洀攀 洀椀最栀琀 琀栀椀渀欀⸀  吀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 眀愀猀 愀渀搀ഊis an outgrowth of a costume party and has been for many decades a ਀爀攀ⴀ挀爀攀愀琀椀漀渀 漀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀 琀栀愀琀 甀猀攀猀 琀栀攀 愀昀漀爀攀 洀攀渀琀椀漀渀攀搀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 愀猀 椀琀猀ഊinspiration. This has allowed us to mix both period aspects and ਀洀漀搀攀爀渀 挀漀渀瘀攀渀椀攀渀挀攀猀 琀漀最攀琀栀攀爀⸀  䤀琀 愀氀猀漀 愀氀氀漀眀攀搀 甀猀 琀漀 琀愀欀攀 挀攀爀琀愀椀渀ഊmedieval concepts and organizations and create our own ਀攀焀甀椀瘀愀氀攀渀琀猀⸀  䠀漀眀攀瘀攀爀 漀瘀攀爀 琀栀攀 氀愀猀琀 昀攀眀 礀攀愀爀猀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 猀攀攀渀 愀渀ഊacceleration of what I will call an attempt to transition us into a ਀栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀愀氀 爀攀攀渀愀挀琀洀攀渀琀 最爀漀甀瀀Ⰰ 眀栀攀爀攀 攀瘀攀爀礀琀栀椀渀最 栀愀猀 琀漀 戀攀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀⸀  䤀ഊam not saying that this is universal but the trend does appear to be ਀琀栀攀爀攀⸀  匀漀 琀栀愀琀 栀愀瘀椀渀最 戀攀攀渀 猀愀椀搀 琀栀椀猀 搀椀猀挀甀猀猀椀漀渀 愀戀漀甀琀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 愀渀搀ഊits symbols really can be boiled down to the following. If we are ਀甀猀椀渀最 琀栀攀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 漀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀猀 愀渀搀 挀漀渀挀攀瀀琀猀 愀猀 椀渀猀瀀椀爀愀琀椀漀渀 琀漀ഊre-create a noble order then the customs and symbols of the SCA's ਀䌀栀椀瘀愀氀爀礀 ⠀愀 㐀　 礀攀愀爀 漀氀搀 漀爀搀攀爀 䤀 洀椀最栀琀 瀀漀椀渀琀 漀甀琀⤀ 愀爀攀 樀甀猀琀 昀椀渀攀⸀  䈀甀琀ഊif we are actually trying to mimic (as in reenact) the period ਀漀爀最愀渀椀稀愀琀椀漀渀猀 琀栀攀渀 眀攀 渀攀攀搀 琀漀 挀栀漀漀猀攀 眀栀椀挀栀 漀渀攀 眀攀 眀椀氀氀 爀攀ⴀ攀渀愀挀琀 愀渀搀ഊcompletely adjust our symbology and customs as would be appropriate. ਀ഊBurke ਀ഊ> Lyonel ici. ਀㸀ഊ> Sieur Jean Paul has already cited Du Charney on the white belt origin, so I ਀㸀 眀漀渀✀琀 爀攀瀀攀愀琀 琀栀愀琀⸀ 䤀 眀椀氀氀 愀搀搀 琀漀 琀栀愀琀 瀀漀椀渀琀Ⰰ 椀渀 愀氀氀 昀愀椀爀渀攀猀猀 琀漀 琀栀攀ഊ> discussion, the white belt was only worn as part of the ceremony and was ਀㸀 甀渀搀漀甀戀琀攀搀氀礀 挀氀漀琀栀 漀爀 眀漀瘀攀渀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䤀✀洀 猀漀爀爀礀 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 ∀挀栀愀椀渀 椀猀 愀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 漀昀 昀攀愀氀琀礀∀ 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 搀漀攀猀渀✀琀 眀愀猀栀⸀ 䄀琀ഊ> least, not from an historical perspective. The SCA established the chain as ਀㸀 愀 瀀爀漀琀攀挀琀攀搀 戀愀搀最攀 漀昀 欀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 愀渀搀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀攀搀 椀琀 眀椀琀栀 昀攀愀氀琀礀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 䤀 戀攀氀椀攀瘀攀ഊ> the idea was loosely based on the chains of esses worn by member of the ਀㸀 伀爀搀攀爀 漀昀 琀栀攀 䜀漀氀搀攀渀 䘀氀攀攀挀攀⸀ 䤀✀洀 眀椀氀氀椀渀最 琀漀 攀渀琀攀爀琀愀椀渀 礀漀甀爀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 漀昀 琀栀攀ഊ> chain symbolism if you can show me a period example of a non-knight wearing ਀㸀 愀 挀栀愀椀渀 攀砀瀀爀攀猀猀氀礀 愀猀 愀 猀礀洀戀漀氀 漀昀 昀攀愀氀琀礀⸀ ⠀䜀爀愀渀琀攀搀Ⰰ 䤀 挀漀甀氀搀 戀攀 昀漀爀最攀琀琀椀渀最 愀ഊ> reference to the chain-as-fealty-symbol from period knighting ceremonies. If ਀㸀 猀漀Ⰰ 䤀 愀瀀漀氀漀最椀稀攀 昀漀爀 琀栀愀琀 攀氀椀猀椀漀渀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 愀爀最甀洀攀渀琀 猀琀椀氀氀 眀漀爀欀猀⤀⸀ഊ> ਀㸀 䄀猀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀 搀椀猀挀甀猀猀椀漀渀 漀昀 猀瀀甀爀猀㨀ഊ> ਀㸀㸀 吀栀攀 猀瀀甀爀猀 眀攀爀攀 渀漀琀栀椀渀最 洀漀爀攀Ⰰ 栀椀猀琀漀爀椀挀愀氀氀礀Ⰰ 琀栀愀渀 愀 琀漀漀氀 甀猀攀搀 琀漀 爀椀搀攀 愀 栀漀爀猀攀⸀ഊ>> The SCA made the association because normally only knights had the money to ਀㸀㸀 愀昀昀漀爀搀 愀 爀椀搀椀渀最 栀漀爀猀攀⸀ 䠀漀眀攀瘀攀爀Ⰰ 洀愀渀礀 渀漀戀氀攀猀 愀猀 眀攀氀氀 栀愀搀 栀漀爀猀攀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 洀愀渀礀ഊ>> equestrians today have horses and corresponding horseshoes too, even though ਀㸀㸀 琀栀攀礀 愀爀攀 渀漀琀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀㬀 愀渀搀 猀漀 琀栀攀 猀瀀甀爀猀 眀攀爀攀 渀漀琀 椀渀搀椀挀愀琀椀瘀攀 漀昀 愀  ഊ>> knight either. ਀㸀ഊ> Um, yes and no. ਀㸀ഊ> The SCA made the association because Du Charney, Lull, and other period ਀㸀 猀漀甀爀挀攀猀 椀渀挀氀甀搀攀 猀琀爀愀瀀瀀椀渀最 漀渀 猀瀀甀爀猀 ⠀椀渀 猀漀洀攀 挀愀猀攀猀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 猀瀀甀爀猀 漀昀ഊ> golden metal) as part of the knighting ceremony. What the SCA did was ਀㸀 猀瀀攀挀椀昀椀挀愀氀氀礀 愀猀猀漀挀椀愀琀攀 ⨀琀栀攀 眀攀愀爀椀渀最 漀昀 猀瀀甀爀猀⨀ 漀渀 愀渀 漀渀最漀椀渀最 戀愀猀椀猀 眀椀琀栀ഊ> knighthood. The association makes sense in more reasons than just the "only ਀㸀 欀渀椀最栀琀猀 挀漀甀氀搀 愀昀昀漀爀搀⸀⸀⸀∀ 瀀漀椀渀琀⸀ 䬀渀椀最栀琀栀漀漀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 䴀椀搀搀氀攀 䄀最攀猀 椀猀 猀漀 挀氀漀猀攀氀礀 ഊ> tied with horsemanship that in every European language but English ਀㸀 ⠀椀爀漀渀椀挀愀氀氀礀⤀Ⰰ 琀栀攀 眀漀爀搀 昀漀爀ഊ> knight means "horseman" (cavalier, chevalier, cavalher, caballero, ritter, ਀㸀 爀椀搀愀爀椀Ⰰ 甀渀搀 猀漀 眀攀椀琀攀爀⤀⸀ 䘀漀爀 愀渀礀 椀渀琀攀爀攀猀琀攀搀 眀漀爀搀 最攀攀欀猀 漀甀琀  琀栀攀爀攀Ⰰ ∀欀渀椀最栀琀∀ഊ> is derived from the Anglo-Saxon "cniht" which originally just means "young ਀㸀 洀愀渀∀ 戀甀琀 攀瘀攀渀琀甀愀氀氀礀 挀愀洀攀 琀漀 洀攀愀渀 ∀眀愀爀爀椀漀爀⸀∀ഊ> ਀㸀 䘀爀愀渀欀氀礀Ⰰ 䤀✀瘀攀 渀攀瘀攀爀 栀愀搀 愀渀礀 漀戀樀攀挀琀椀漀渀 琀漀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 眀攀愀爀椀渀最 猀瀀甀爀猀⸀ 䤀琀 猀攀攀洀猀ഊ> pretentious if you're not a rider or a knight, but much of what we do in the ਀㸀 匀䌀䄀 椀猀 瀀爀攀琀攀渀琀椀漀甀猀⸀ 䴀礀 愀瀀漀氀漀最椀攀猀 琀漀 䌀漀爀眀椀渀 愀渀搀 䄀渀琀漀渀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀 猀焀甀椀爀攀猀 椀渀ഊ> training spurs always struck me as a bit too precious (YMMV). ਀㸀ഊ> So, in all, you can argue that SCA symbols of knighthood are all inventions ਀㸀 琀栀愀琀 眀漀甀氀搀 渀漀琀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 瘀愀氀椀搀 椀渀 琀栀攀 䴀椀搀搀氀攀 䄀最攀猀⸀ 䤀渀 洀漀猀琀 愀最攀猀 愀渀搀ഊ> locations, you could not tell a knight on sight. Sure, someone in armor, ਀㸀 愀爀洀攀搀 愀渀搀 戀攀愀爀椀渀最 愀爀洀猀Ⰰ 眀愀猀 瀀爀漀戀愀戀氀礀 愀 欀渀椀最栀琀⸀ 䈀甀琀 礀漀甀 渀攀瘀攀爀 欀渀攀眀 昀漀爀 猀甀爀攀⸀ഊ> Many mercenaries became knights by pretense. No one ever admitted to having ਀㸀 欀渀椀最栀琀攀搀 刀漀戀攀爀琀 䬀渀漀氀氀攀猀 漀爀 䨀漀栀渀 䠀愀眀欀眀漀漀搀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 琀栀攀礀 戀漀琀栀 猀琀礀氀攀搀 琀栀攀洀猀攀氀瘀攀猀 愀猀ഊ> knights. ਀㸀ഊ> Ultimately, though, what argument are you trying to make? Are you saying ਀㸀 琀栀愀琀 愀渀礀漀渀攀 椀渀 琀栀攀 匀䌀䄀 挀愀渀 眀攀愀爀 愀 最漀氀搀 挀栀愀椀渀Ⰰ 猀瀀甀爀猀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀 眀栀椀琀攀 戀攀氀琀㼀 夀攀猀Ⰰഊ> that's true. I think the reception of such choices at events would make this ਀㸀 愀渀 甀渀挀漀洀昀漀爀琀愀戀氀攀 挀栀漀椀挀攀Ⰰ 琀栀漀甀最栀⸀ 䄀爀攀 礀漀甀 猀愀礀椀渀最 琀栀愀琀 椀琀 洀愀欀攀猀 猀攀渀猀攀 昀爀漀洀 愀ഊ> period standpoint to wear these accoutrements? Well, in one of three cases ਀㸀 ⠀猀瀀甀爀猀⤀Ⰰ 䤀 愀最爀攀攀⸀ 䤀 搀漀渀✀琀 琀栀椀渀欀 礀漀甀 挀愀渀 昀椀渀搀 洀愀渀礀 瀀攀爀椀漀搀 攀砀愀洀瀀氀攀猀 漀昀 眀栀椀琀攀ഊ> belts and gold chains, though. ਀㸀ഊ> lo vostre por vos servir ਀㸀 匀椀爀 䰀礀漀渀攀氀 伀氀椀瘀攀爀 䜀爀愀挀攀ഊ ਀㰀琀栀攀 攀渀搀㸀ഊEdited by Mark S. Harris knighthood-msg Page 16 of 16 ਀ഊ