teenagers-msg - 2/15/01 Period and SCA teenagers. NOTE: See also the files: children-msg, child-gam-msg, child-books-msg, toys-msg, dolls-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, child-kitchen-msg, chd-actvites-msg, p-cook-child-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Luigi Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: ages 13-19 Date: Fri, 31 DEC 93 04:03:41 EST Having recently turned 21, I spent most of my SCAdian life as a young adult and strongely resented be expected to not join in the activities of "OLDER" SCAdians. If I was not iterested in being part of the society, I would still think the middle ages were a D&D game with no monsters! Being sepereated and given organized activities may be fine for children but young adults are adults that just lack a little experience. Being seperated and told what to do is not any way to gain that experience. What I have 'experienced' about SCAdians is that anyone of any age with a mature attitude is welcome and anyone of any age without a mature attitude is quickely shown one or the door. I've been in the SCA since I wwas 15. In the time past I have two fully developed personas, a household that I was in large part responible for forming and will soon take charge of the household fighters, and have responsable freindships with most of the chivalry in my region as well as numerous non-chivarly even former kings and queens of other kingdoms in my time. That may not be much until you contrast that with my starting outas being what most parents fear. That growth occured from being involved, not segregated. If younger adults prefer those of there own age they will very easily find them and get good experience at introductions. I do not intend to offend anyone who disagrees, just state a good reason for my beliefs. puppy aka:Louis Loisel le Chiot Malin mka:Luigi Kapaj email:lkapaj at delphi.com From: jacquetta at aol.com (Jacquetta) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Kids Date: 22 Sep 1994 17:55:02 -0400 v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) writes: ""Has anyone ever heard of a kid who's parents were in the SCA, but who hated it?"" Actually, yes. My good friend Lady Wyllow has a 13 year old who really doesnt find anything attractive about the SCA. He's into bikes. Fortunately for Wyllow, her husband ALSO doesn't like the SCA. So its just her at Pennsic and Dad and son stay home and hang out. Brendan won't go to events at all anymore. Less extreme is my son - aged 6. The SCA has only limited appeal to him. Having grown up watching "Daddy fight" there is no real attracting in a tourney anymore. So Johnny only goes to summer camping events where he can go swimming in the pool all day. Our older child (Sarah - 12) adores the SCA and can''t get enough of it. The point is... every kid is different. Some go, some don't. Jacquetta From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Kids Date: 25 Sep 1994 11:44:05 -0400 About kids and parental activities: Don't take it personally if your kids don't like the SCA. There's an instinct as strong as any which kicks in at some time in most people (some as early as 11, some not until they're 22) to Get Away from your parents. If this instinct didn't exist, why would we ever leave a place with food and laundry services? Giving kids more and better things to do won't save them all. Some will get surly and might do best in the tent with the sound turned down on the Gameboy. I don't know about the rest of you, but my parents dressed me up in western shirts and new jeans and dragged me to rodeos. They woke me up to hear musician-friends of theirs play Orange Blossom Special in the living room, or whatever. Had I had a natural interest in such things it would've been fine, but I was pretty much mortified. There are, of course, people who have grown up in the SCA and stayed. There are people who grow up in a small town and stay to work the rest of their lives. There are also those (and those among us) who grew up in a small town and got the heck out. There are those who will want the heck out of the SCA. Try not to waste too much time swimming up the biological stream, because when a kid's urge to be different kicks in you'd probably do best for both of you if you let it be. AElflaed, hoping my kids don't hate the SCA but trying to prepare for the likelihood that with three of them, not all will want to live here. So far they're happy with friends and boffers and their Calontir boots [if anyone sees Richard or Istvan, tell them Kirby's boots are getting small...] From: azrael at access4.digex.net (Razmus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Kids Date: 26 Sep 1994 08:48:03 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Cynthia.Ley at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Cynthia Ley) writes: > Maybe the kid hates the SCA because he or she is bored. This seems >to be especially true with the 'tweens (ages 10-18). They're too old for >Pied Pipers and too young for a lot of other activities. > So here's a question for everyone: what sorts of activities are open >to the 'tweens? What jobs can they do? Kids are happiest when they're doing >something and feel included. Just my two drakmas, I (helped) bring four teenagers (14,15,16,and 17.9) to the Tournyment of the Rose in Ponte Alto, Atlantia this weekend. They kinda made thier own peer group - and because one of the major objectives of the event was to collect coins for the Ransom of a willful young lady from gypsies - they had a chance to arrange thier OWN activities to separate gentles and thier coins. My own interpretation is that these young adults are too old to be told what to do, but to young to really get into some of the things "us older kids" do. Just by making stuff available (coins, games, information about what/how games were played in period) these kids had a blast -- and it was thier first event. They can't wait until the next one. A joyous noise for the organziers and the Barony of Ponte Alto! In service, Razmus the Innocent -- Rich E. Weissler azrael at access.digex.net From: habura at rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Kids Date: 28 Sep 1994 01:04:36 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Jan Wagner writes about the problems of SCA pre-teens and teenagers. It strikes me that we're actually talking about two separate populations here. One group is the ones who found the SCA on their own (as I did; I joined at 14, without my parents.) The other is the not-quite-grown children of established SCAdians. The two present different problems. The first group has no problems of motivation: any person in that age range who can manage to *attend* events on a regular basis is motivated. Most of these seem to do best when "adopted" by a household or other cluster of adult SCAdians. Certainly, also, they can find plenty to do: of my current SCA hobbies, the only ones I could not have taken up when I joined were brewing and fighting. The other group, if it has a problem at all, has motivation as its primary trouble. A child who grew up in the SCA knows how things work, and the parents are there to help. The trick becomes ensuring that they *want* to do something. Were I a parent (I'm not), I would make an arrangement to "foster" or "apprentice" my child to someone I trusted. I'd watch my child for a few years to see if there was anyone in my circle of friends that she seemed fond of. Then, I'd see about arranging for my child to spend most of the day at an event with that person. If my friend was a merchant, my child would learn merchanting. If he was a juggler, she would learn to juggle. If he was an archer, she would learn to shoot. And so on. If the child developed other interests and wanted to "swap" to another friend, it could be worked out. At any rate, the child would have someone other than her parents to be with at an event. Alison MacDermot *Ex Ungue Leonem* From: "Brett W. McCoy" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Kids Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 11:02:43 -0500 Organization: DIOGENES/FOI Services, Inc. >DATE: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 07:38:00 -0800 >FROM: Jan Wagner > >There are very few activities for people between the ages of 11 and 18. >Perhaps some of you may have ideas to involve and allievate bordom for >these young folks. Most outdoor events I've been to are centered around >adults (fighting, competitions,etc) that exclude this age group. >Granted, some Kindgoms have been trying to involve these folks in a >small scale. Perhaps as adults we should take it upon ourselves to >involve these young adults-- not merely having them become pages but >REALLY involve them in the SCA: teach them a new skill, how to be a >merchant, showing and helping them create a piece of art work, general >ettiquette, etc. If we choose not to teach them or simply to ignore >them, then no wonder they become borded..wouldn't you???????? As a newly designated Chatelaine/Hospitaller for my shire, one of my duties is to make sure the youngsters have something to do. One thing we try to do is teach the kids games first off, as they can be quickly involved. Game of the Goose seems to be the most popular. Teaching basic cooking skills works, as well as showing them how to do calligraphy, telling stories (and teaching them how to tell stories), and various workshop type things. We have a good proportion of kids in our shire (three of them mine), and I do what I can to keep them busy, especially during the weekly meetings. Even making simple jewelry gets a great response, especially things like stringing beads. One event I was at, the kids got a big kick out of painting themselves with woad. Kids also get a kick out of dancing with the 'grownups'. This is one thing that has impressed me about the SCA, that families are encouraged to participate together. Kids like nothing more than doing things with adults, especially when it comes to 'pretending' and dressing up in outlandish clothing. Istvann Dragosani | "Go not to the Elves for counsel, bmccoy at cap.gwu.edu | for they will say Minstrel, Mage, Sage, Wooer of Women, | both no and yes" and General Friend of All Nature... | -- JRR Tolkien From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Children at Events Date: 14 Feb 1995 16:11:43 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley [Hal posting from Dorothy's account...] In article <3hnuso$v1r at bubba.ucc.okstate.edu>, David Mann wrote: > >How does a person treat teenagers? These not >quite adults are a special case. The 10 to 15 we have in our group want >pretty close to what the adults want, to be able to participate in the >event. I think you will find that the interest in what the adults are doing kicks in a lot younger than that--probably no later than 6 to 8. What you can do with the kids from around 8 through the pre-teens and teenagers (depending on individual level of responsibility) is put them to work in any capacity they can help. The West has been known to use kids as young as 6 as List Pages. Any one child needs to work a relatively short 'shift' (say, an hour or two) and can work more than one shift if they feel up to it, but they get almost fanatically attached to doing *sonmething* that connects to the main activites of an event. Somewhat older--say 10 or 12 for the best and not much older for others, the kids can help at nearly any activity we do. When I was Kingdom Constable I jumped at the chance to get pre-teens and teenagers to help at Gate. I just made sure to pair them up with an adult to handle any decisions that required experience to make a sensible decision. Society governance permits apprentice Marshals as young as 14. Any teen with a good voice or some voice training can do some heraldic work. Any teen or pre-teen can fetch and carry to assist virtually any of the offices or the Royalty. After all, what adult wouldn't *welcome* the assistance of a tireless set of legs? >They can't fight yet, but they can do archery, water bearing, bardic, >heralding, etc. Most groups don't give these teenagers the time of day let >alone the chance to participate. If those kids are not given the chance to >learn about the Society and how things work, we have just lost our future >and the chance to leave a better group than the one we started in. As an ex-Geat Officer let me assure you that what we lose out on is some of the most enthusiastic labor we'll ever get. More over, once the kids get used to the idea that doing even minor service can be fun, they're on their way to being the backbone of the Society--by learning how to hold it all together. >As the Autocrat for an Event of the size of Steppes Warlord it is up to you >to do as you see fit. All I ask is to consider the kid's age and demeanor >on a case by case basis. Of course, under a certain age I would easily >advocate even calling police if the child was running around without parents >at midnight. If my eight year old daughter was doing this I would give her >a spanking (away from sleeping people.) I disagree that it up to the Autocrat. For the loose kids, that comes under the wing of whatever your kingdom has in the way of constabulary (which--in some kingdoms--is the Seneschallate). For enlisting the older kids to help out, that's up to anyone who can use a hand. (Soap box time I guess.... When the heralds announce that "anyone who is, or wants to be" active in any particular office, the officer who asked for the announcement means *anyone*. Just show up at the appointed time and place and you will brighten the day of the person in charge. I cannot imagine a happier event for the officer in charge of a facet of SCA organization than having more volunteers than he actually needs...) --Hal Ravn (Hal Heydt) Subject: ANST - sca-teens Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 09:16:50 MST From: CRICKETRED at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG http://www.dubiouspub.com/scateen/index.htm here's a great site for and about sca teens.. by an SCA teen. It's got lots of neat ideas and input.. go check it out Subject: Re: ANST - SCA Youth Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 08:46:53 MST From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG ><< I think it would be fun and educational > (for the young folk) if some of the Nobility had a couple young people as > entourage members. >> Agreed; the difficulty is getting them together on a regular basis. >I believe Master Robin of Gilwell has been doing just this for several years. >The young man who is his page is one of the most well-mannered young >gentlemen I have ever met. And himself the son of nobility--Baron Tostig and Mistress Rhiannon. >Perhaps Master Robin could be encouraged to tell us how he does this? >I am the mother of a thirteen year old girl who has been in the SCA since she >was seven, and would not be caught dead at an event. I would love to bring her >back.... >but I do not know how. She received her Rising Star at age nine. >Mara (Barony of Elfsea) What has worked for my kids has been to find the things they like to do and give them every opportunity to do them. Rosalind likes serving tables and being cook's helper in the kitchen. Sounds good to me. She has received both a Rising Star and an AoA. Robert likes serving also, and is very good at helping to set things up (like pavilions). He also helps the Ministry of Children in getting things together, and he was a very good assistant at one of their puppet performances recently. He has a Rising Star. A good while back we had a Children's tournament at which a herald gave a class for the kids about heraldry. She used a felt board and had a number of charges and ordinaries cut out of felt. Several of the kids used these to create their own devices. Having one of their own helps them to feel that they really belong to the SCA rather than just trailing around after their parents. At the Academy of the Rapier a week ago, Rosalind and Robert both wanted to take classes. I asked Dona Leah about restrictions, seeing as how they're both under age (12 and 9 at the time). She said they could do all parts of the classes as long as they didn't poke anyone and no one poked them. I would think that this philosophy could be extended to armoured combat as well (use pells), and archery, of course, works fine. Aethelyan Moondragon, Bryn Gwlad Subject: Re: ANST - SCA Youth Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 16:46:26 MST From: Deborah and Robert Wade To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG >>I believe Master Robin of Gilwell has been doing just this for several years. > >And himself the son of nobility--Baron Tostig and Mistress Rhiannon. Thank you for the compliment to my son. With both of my children, Thomas - Master Robin's page and Jaquelynn the goal has been to encourage them to tell us what they want to do and to make the SCA fun. Thomas has attended classes at several King's Colleges and has entered A&S events. He also spends an incredible amount of time in Robin's armour bag. Jacquelynn is more interested in service type activities than the arts. She is encouraged to what she is interested in and to behave at all times. Rhiannon Subject: ANST - SCA Youth Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 23:01:23 MST From: Kim Tucker To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Greetings from Baroness Neassa, HE Caterina wrote: > I think it would be fun and educational (for the young folk) if some of the > Nobility had a couple young people as > entourage members. They could/would get a real understanding of what > it takes to do the job! Any other ideas? I have two young ladies in my Barony, Carn and Marissa, who are my ladies-in-waiting. I'm not sure of their ages, but I believe they are both between 11 and 15 years old. They do an excellent job as entourage. There is also a young man, Ben, (I think he is 15), who assists me regularly by running errands and carrying heavy objects. These kids are wonderful; a lot of help AND a lot of fun. Many, many other children from Stargate also help. All you have to do is let them. I know that this comment was originally addressed to the nobility, but we can't do it alone. You don't have to be a Baroness or a member of the Royal Family or even a Peer to give a child a job at an event. First make an arrangement with a child's parents, and then take that child as your page or lady-in-waiting, and then *give them something to do!* Kids love to run errands for adults at an event, (at least for everyone but their parents). Have them find out what is scheduled for children's activities that day: They can decide which activities they want to attend, and you may want to go to one of the classes to learn something too. Ask the kid to deliver a message for you, or find out if any of the merchants have pottery or trim for sale. Fighters can have the kid hold their shield or sword by the list field just before they take the field, and the same kid could have a cool mug of water ready when the fighter retires from the field. Kids know how to set tables for feast - at least to get the tablecloth on it. They can gather wildflowers for a centerpiece. Just interact with the kid as you really would a page or lady-in-waiting: Have them do what you are too busy to do, and teach them what you are doing and why you are doing it, and both adult and child will have a good time. If you really want to get spiffy, make the child a tabard in your colors, or with your arms on it. Sir Godwin did this many years ago, and it was wonderful. It greatly added to the period feel of the event, it gave the kid something to wear that his parents didn't have to make, the kid loved it (as did his younger sisters who later grew into it), and it was evident to all that this child was in the service of Godwin. It just goes to show what a little heraldry can do for you. :) Kids are fun. Neassa the Obstreperous Baroness of Stargate Former Minister of Children of Stargate Subject: Re: ANST - Giving Awards to SCA Youth Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 17:31:27 MST From: Deborah and Robert Wade To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Above all check with the parents before recommending children for awards. It is not fair to the child to give him an armigerous award when he does not understand the meaning even if you (the non parent) believe that he is deserving. There may reasons why the parent, who knows the child better than you, is hesitant to have their child receive an armigous award. He will often be just as happy with a special recognition from the Crown and a peice of largess. My son Thomas received a special scroll from Micheal and Mikela at Steppes Artisan a couple of years ago, and is much proder of that than he would be of an AOA or of the Rising Star which he does have. Mistress Ellisena fought for several years to prevent her daughters from receiving AOAs for several reasons and the people of Stargate respected her wishes. If he understands the award system and its structure and the parents agree then by all means recommend the minor for awards. Lady Roselin is a prime example of a child that was ready to receive her AOA at an early age. Her parents were consulted and agreed to the recognition. Rhiannon Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:35:08 MST From: Aline Swynbrook Subject: ANST - SCA Clubs at Yahoo To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org I have noticed a few mentioned, so I will plug mine. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/scateens For any and all teens (or teens at heart) in the Society. Many members are also on the SCA-Teen mailing list at onelist.com So, let your area young adults know... Aline Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:53:04 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: SC - Worst feast ever... Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > That's terriffic Lainie! sounds like you have a wonderful daughter! > Phillipa > << > My oldest daughter Annie (Lady Rotrude) started out at age 5, keeping > the water carafes filled, served as the 'Little Water Girl' in her > wooden shoes, apron and headscarf for years, and graduated to serving > food and working in the kitchen. At 16 she's welcome staff just about > anywhere. >> Why, thank you! It gets better though- it has been my policy when I take the Gang o' Girls (up to 6 teenaged girls, and yes, I'm very brave) to events, that they _must_ put in service time- in the kitchen, serving, waterbearing at tourneys, whatever. Gets them out and participating, and it teaches them just how much goes into putting an event on. I even make them go shopping with me before an event so they can see just how much it costs and how to budget and manage food, etc. Heh, heh, heh... education, masked as 'fun'... I'm an eeeevil mommy... 'Lainie Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:14:58 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: SC - Worst feast ever... Olwen the Odd wrote: > I do pretty much the same thing with the teens I shuffle around. There have > been some camping events outside our Barony where I have insisted the girls > pin a paper proclaiming their ages. Better silly and safe. We have a couple of belt favors that the girls must wear if they go out for bardic, etc., in the evening. Black, with a large white Maltese cross, with white lettering that clearly proclaims "My Uncle is a Hospitaller". The Hospitallers locally are a fairly well-known war unit, most of them Very Large Men, and many of them call me 'Aunty 'Lainie'. Of course the question might be- who would you rather face- an over-protective Hospitaller, or and over-protective (and angry!) Aunty 'Lainie? 'Lainie Edited by Mark S. Harris teenagers-msg 3