children-msg - 3/1/08 Children in the SCA and period. NOTE: See also these files: babies-msg, teenagers-msg, child-clothes-msg, child-gam-msg, toys-msg, Toys-in-th-MA-art, child-wagons-msg, p-cook-child-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU Date: 15 Feb 90 18:53:00 GMT Greeting to the Rialto from Lady Marian Greenleaf: It's great to see this subject come up, although in general the Rialto population is largely un-childed and may not keep the topic going for very long. I don't have any kids yet myself but last year I was responsible for planning and claiming a rather tightly-organized encampment which had to accomodate 7 children ranging in age from 20 months to 8 years. So I tried to do my homework, talking to parents and thinking of the whole thing as a process. The actual implementation worked amazingly well. I will limit the discussion more or less to physical support arrangements because I didn't end up doing much of the diaper-changing level of work. This all may sound complex, but if you set it up right it's amazingly easy to keep it going. Anything on the ground or within reach from the ground, including at least the bench level of every picnic table (depending on the agility of the child involved) is to be kept strictly childproofed. To support this, I designed and built a portable high shelf attached to 2 4X4's. (I borrowed a post-hole digger--the upright iron rod kind seems to work best on the dirt at Cooper's--and it took me a couple of hours to dig the holes, set the posts more or less straight, and attach the shelf.) The shelf is a foot wide and about 8 feet long; it holds the propane stoves, all knives and other sharp implements, the detergent, all matches (further encased in closed containers), and anything else that needs to be up high. Additional space comes from hooks set in the uprights, and the tops of the 4X4's (about 5 feet above the ground). A portable table, set so that one end reaches under the shelf, provides more room for the cook to set things while actually working, and provides a place to set non-dangerous dishes and utensils, while still being too high for small children to climb (but watch where you set chairs around it!) The whole covers nicely with a standard 12X12 dining fly, and there is lots of room left to put in seating. To secure the fly for storms, put everything under the shelf area and lash the fly around the whole. There are no tiki torches or other dangerous fuel sources of light in camp. Period. Lit candles are always hung out of reach and must be extinguished when the last person leaves camp or goes to bed. Since everyone knows where to find the matches (on the shelf!) this is not really much of an inconvenience. Electric lanterns are also good if you are not particularly purist. The firepit (yes, we had one) is always attended when lit. This was less of a problem than you might think. Small children don't care for really hot things in general and the heat can be felt several feet away. Leaving live coals concealed under ashes during children's waking hours is strictly forbidden. People who come back to camp during the wee hours should always check the firepit before retiring. With 30 people in camp this means it gets checked. There is a children's play area. It has a couple of dining flies set together to provide shade; maybe a screen house. The thin tatami mats sold in discount stores are great for flooring. You can put up a card table, chairs, maybe a small picnic table under the shade, and keep lots of kid-type supplies there. If you fear bad weather at night, just drop the flies and lash them around the table; you don't even have to move much stuff, except for essentials such as diapering supplies and favorite toys which should go wherever your kid actually is--play area, tent, or out with an adult. Play areas require space and you should plan accordingly to keep it tight; a smaller sleeping tent, perhaps. Shade is absolutely essential. Children suffer more from heat and dehydrate faster than adults. If you child will nap in the open shade, that's ideal--better than a hot tent in mid-afternoon! The play area, in a larger encampment, is not close to the cooking fly. You could combine them in a small encampment if you are careful about policing the area and keep in mind your child's ability to climb. Adults and older children camping in the area must agree to keep dangerous items secured and out of sight, and must close up their tents when they are not in them. Ventilation should be discreet and not include tempting views of every piece of armor they own spread all over the floor. These things can inspire an 18-month-old to master the mysteries of zippers in record time. Kids have a definite bedtime and naptime and the other campers know when these are. If there are other parents in camp, coordinate. Babysitting duties are coordinated and shared. At dusk, before bedtime for the mobile kids, tie a lightstick on each child. They love it, and it makes them easier to find and prevents collisions when they are chasing each other in the twilight. Why are they chasing each other? So they'll drop straight off to sleep, of course! (not that you can stop them in any case.) If you cannot be close to water, arrange ahead of time for somebody else to carry water to you on a regular basis. Same for ice. For kids that are out of diapers but not old enough to go potty on their own, try to get a spot reasonably close to whatever variety of toilet your child will tolerate. The alternative is to set up your own potty chair and empty it yourself. Personally I feel that the camping rules, whatever they are (and I DON'T want to start that discussion going again!) somehow need to accomodate small children in this regard. Barriers such as wind screens and closed tents look more solid to small children than they really are. You can exploit this. Any kind of defined boundary will mean something to most kids. This is important; neighboring encampments will almost certainly not be childproof. Bring highly visible ropes and stakes. (Mine are orange and yellow!) If they run their legs off during the day, they will totally conk out at night, and you can rev up the firepit and party. If you tend to like a little excess in that department, trade off "excess nights" with other parents or babysitters. Well, that's most of what I learned working with these things last year. I'm sure there are people out there with more detailed advice on babies per se. There is no substitute for cooperating with the other people in your encampment, no matter how old the kids are. In service to the child and parental units of the Known World, --Lady Marian Greenleaf From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU Date: 16 Feb 90 16:31:00 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Several people have suggested that local newsletters might be interested in reprinting my article of Feb. 15 on camping with small children. Permission is hereby granted for SCA reprint purposes. I didn't copyright it. If you reprint, I'd appreciate a credit to Lady Marian Greenleaf, Barony-Marche of the Debateable Lands, East Kingdom. Thanks for the positive responses; I'm interested in seeing how others handle the same kinds of challenges. --Marian From: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.wbst845 at XEROX.COM Date: 4 May 90 20:50:55 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Greetings to the parents of kids under 5 from Lady Orianna, the mother of an (almost) 3 year old! I have always had this problem too. Kids activities at SCA events are usually geared for children age 5 or 8 and up (and yet many also miss that gap between 12 and 15 too). These things involve learning heraldry and such. Rarely do you find activities for the under 5 crowd. We have tried to have some activities at a couple of events for the under 5 crowd. These included: a play area separated from the major adult area by benches so the children could play but still be close to the main activity. The play area had age appropriate toys (in a gym we used balls that the kids could chase), crafts (coloring pens or crayons, paper, etc.), a snack time, story telling, and a planned nap time for anyone wishing it where the kids would take a collective nap or quiet time out with supervision by an adult and parents were free to enjoy the event. Since the weather was a little bad, we didn't do some of the outdoor activites that we had planned, like a nature walk for the older kids and general "run around and play" for the younger. Our solution to having our daughter along consisted of the following: We selected which events we took her to and which she stayed with Grandma (luckily, her "Oma" is close and will babysit). We made sure that if the event was too big (Ice Dragon), not guaranteed to have space for kids to run and play in (Ice Dragon), was a heavy work event for one of us (Investitures and Coronet Tournaments where we would both be busy heralding or setting up court all day, or events that we were autocratting and required a lot of attention), or we were ready for a break, she did not go. Other events are ideal to take her to. Myrkfaelinn's annual camping event has lots of open space for her to run in and doesn't require much effort on our part to attend. Our other coping strategy was a young lady who attended events with us. If Brigid was along, we paid Kilde's way as payment for her help with Brigid. This was a shared activity, not a full-time babysitting arrangement. At camping events, we would take turns on who spent the evening in camp and who went camp hopping. At indoor events, Kilde would help out if, for example, we both had business in Court and Kilde would hold Brigid. When Kilde went to college, we got lost! We had truely been spoiled. Anyway, this is too long as is. My suggestions would be to a) find someone to share the burden with, even if this means paying their way to the event. b) plan activities that you know your kids enjoy (reading stories to them, playing with their favorite toys, coloring if they are old enough). c) find other parents with kids the same age. Pool resources and kids. Let the kids play together while you get acquainted and swap "war" stories. Unfortunately, until the kids are old enough to be allowed on their own at an event, you will probably spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines. Find some friends who are willing to sit with you to talk, so you at least aren't isolated. Best of luck! Orianna Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East Rochester, NY From: ddfr at tank.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 6 May 90 05:46:54 GMT Organization: University of Chicago Awilda mentions a seventeenth century baby walker, and wonders how far back they go. We have a book with a copy of a medieval miniature showing the holy family with Jesus in a walker. I can check the date if people are interested, but it is certainly period. David (Cariadoc) From: JCASE%TUFTS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU Date: 7 Oct 90 05:55:00 GMT On the journey home from tourney today, my lady and I were discussing aspects of children growing up in the SCA. A subject came up which I thought might make an interesting discussion topic, to wit: Are children who are growing up in the SCA more likely to be more trusting of strangers than other children. We had noted the youngster (6-12 years) who had played so hard around the lords and ladies, and whom the children had no qualms about relating to, and we had noted that the daughter of the Baron and Baroness Carolingia had been basically passed from person to person among whomever wished to hold he, and at five months seemed to have absolutely no fear of strangers. What do other fishers at the Rialto think, especially those who have raised or are raising SCA children think? Taran **************************************************************************** Lord Taran of Windy Hill John H. Case Barony of Carolingia 87 Moreland St. Kingdom of the East Somerville, MA 02145-1441 JCASE at tufts.bitnet **************************************************************************** From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Date: 4 Sep 91 18:05:22 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science, Blacksburg, VA Greetings to all from Angharad. These two threads have persisted long enough that it seemed a couple of observations might be worth putting in. A couple of my acquaintance with a five year old son attended Atlantian Tenth Year, a four day event. They had all the usual problems of not wanting to be tied to their son every moment of that time, with an additional awareness that anyhow, he probably didn't want to be tied to them the whole time either, but he did need supervision. Since Tenth Year was longer than most events, the normal problems were aggravated. They came up with a solution that I found creative and that seemed to work well for all concerned. They didn't foster out their son. They fostered IN another, much older child. She lives in the kingdom, they know her well, she knows their son well, the kids get along, and the parents get along. The older child was hired to spend a lot of time at the event with the younger child. Everyone seemed to have a good time. For it to work, your child has to be old enough, you have to know the right older child, and the child has to be available. But the children of kingdoms do tend to get to know one another, parents of children who know each other tend to become acquainted, and a young teenager can enjoy the responsibility, the pay, and the younger child. When it can be done, it seems to offer all the best features of positive sum games: everyone in sight wins. Nothing like a complete solution, but worth looking at.... Many of the solutions suggested are like that: small and personal, and they only work in some cases, but if you can collect enough of them, you may start getting some reasonable coverage. I tend to have more faith in the simple and personal solutions than in the large scale organizational ones, both because they feel far more authentic and because I think they're more likely to work. In the same spirit, I tend to shy away from the idea of organizing something like Peasant's Point to feed those who could use it, for several reasons. First, hospitality was one of the prime virtues of the age we are trying to recreate. If there is an official Peasant's Point, there will tend to be an associated tacit assumption that that is the place to go if you're hungry and broke. This silently but, I fear, effectively undermines the tendency for each group to offer a many small charities: the automatic offers of something to drink and perhaps to snack on for visitors, or for passing heralds, and the like. Second, it is a great deal easier for thousands of people to (voluntarily, individually) divide the financial burden through individual hospitality than it is to raise the money to do it all in one place. Third, individual hospitality requires no separate staffing or labor, as an official Peasant's Point would. There are groups that effectively run Peasant's Points throughout the site, feeding everyone who comes by. I would hate to see that go away; indeed, one of my great regrets this War was that because of chaos in the months leading up, my lord and I could not do so ourselves, but must to a far greater extent receive, this year, than give. Being gracious and hospitable is not only authentic and virtuous and all that, it is also fun, and leaves you feeling good. Surely we want no one to go through War -- or, I hope, any event -- hungry and thirsty and uncomfortable. Is it really easier to prevent this, from anyone's point of view, by raising money and a staff and doing something official? Do we need it? Those of you out there who were at War and could have used hospitality: did you find it in short supply? Would you have headed for an official Peasant's Point had there been one? (These aren't rhetorical questions; I am interested to know whether this is a problem in need of a solution, or a problem already to a large extent informally solved.) Angharad ver' Rhuawn Terry Nutter Barony of Black Diamond Blacksburg, VA Kingdom of Atlantia jtn at vtopus.cs.vt.edu From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Date: 3 Sep 91 16:38:10 GMT Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA z1dan at exnet.iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory): > In short, parents, if you do not observe your children at all > times it is reasonable to conclude that others will help to keep them > out of trouble. Please respect their methods of parenting, and do not > think they are any less a gentle because their methods and yours differ. I agree, provided that your concept of parenting does not require that the parent be in constant attendance on the child. > My main contention with > children is their noise level, but a simple request for them to please > keep it down a bit usually suffices. As I suggested, treating children as reasonable people works at least as often as asking adults to be quieter or be elsewhere. > Interesting idea: how many on here like to listen to the bards? > How many children like to listen to the bards? Would it not make sense > to compile a book or two of bardic stories, fairy tales of you will, and > let a few aspiring bards practice their craft to the enjoyment of the > children at the event? The bard will naturally be empowered to send the > children packing if they disrupt the story for others, but it would > provide a welcome, and period, distraction for the kids. My reluctance to suggest this stems from my feeling that adults would be almost as interested in hearing the tales as the children. Things like 1001 Arabian nights and the adventures of Arthur Pendragon, Robin Hood or Finn MacCool (Fionn MacCumhail) should have almost universal appeal. The difficulty lies in finding a bard who is willing to spend his day, and his voice, in the manner; and in the autocrat finding a place for this activity to take place. > Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir Fiacha Aquaterra, AnTir From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson") Date: 3 Sep 91 17:38:00 GMT Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus: Sister Kate, speculating about how best to do childcare at events, writes: > Since this is > to everyone's benefit, shall we charge a small fee at Troll and put it > toward child care, paying professionals to see to the smaller children? Please don't make this suggestion too seriously. Modern professionals will care for children in modern ways, and this is equivalent to being locked away from the rest of the event and given modern play to do. (Colouring medieval pictures and the like is clearly modern play, even if it has medieval trappings.) I would imagine you would have to find someone *awfully* special who would be willing to learn about the SCA and the middle ages enough to incorporate child care into the event. > Asking for volunteers to run a nursery doesn't seem to work very well, as > has been pointed out. Shall we then draw straws among the local officers > to see who's going to organize the child care this time? Suggestions? In fact, at most of the Midrealm events I have been to which advertised childcare, the children were shut away in a room with one or two female caregivers, and they coloured, strung beads, and played with Fisher Price toys until dinnertime, when they were returned to their parents. (Sound familiar?) I find this fundamentally bothersome. What we do at our events is find ways for children to be useful during the day. Even a child of four or five can help the kitchen staff carry things from the kitchen to the hall. (Mind you, the kitchen has to be reasonably organized to be able to use the children's help, but fortunate- ly this has never been a problem.) Older children of six or seven are put to work minding the little ones (we saved a toddler from a busy street this way). The older children who feel up to it make excellent servers. Children *love* to do things where they feel honestly useful, because it makes them feel grownup. Our canton's only child comes up to us at our events now and begs us for work that she can do. The other thing that one lady in our group does is to plan things children can do when they are liable to be running around the hall and their par- ents busy. Examples include just before and just after the feast, in the dead spot after the tourney is over and the fighters are showering, during Court, and so on. She has read them stories, taught them to do origami (after a half hour, the children had all drifted away, but the adults were still at it an hour later :-), taken them outside the hall to play tag (especially good right after dinner), had them beat on a pinata (does anyone know if this custom is period?). The very best games are the ones where both children and adults can play on a more or less equal footing. The modern solution to how to deal with children is to lock them away from the adults and teach them how to be an adult until at age 18 they burst forth from Zeus's head fully grown and ready to tackle the world. (Those who have recognized this as a fantasy collect one point; in the modern society we have invented adolescence to explain the artificial stage where adults are given children's responsibilities; it's no wonder the adjustments often last until 30 or 35.) The medieval solution of how to deal with children is to integrate them into the household as soon as they are physically able, and teach them by having them watch and do. 20th Century educators are slowly recognizing that this is the best way to learn; surely we in the SCA can seize on this excellent solution as one of the better parts of the middle ages we wish to recreate. Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells | Heather Fraser Barony of the Skraeling Althing | Kingston, Ontario, CANADA Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm | c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca From: joshua at yoko.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman) Date: 3 Sep 91 19:51:12 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Greetings from Arval (even more than normally long-winded today for some reason... probably too little sleep). Sarra writes: > In fact, at most of the Midrealm events I have been to which advertised > childcare, the children were shut away in a room with one or two female > caregivers, and they coloured, strung beads, and played with Fisher Price > toys until dinnertime, when they were returned to their parents. (Sound > familiar?) I find this fundamentally bothersome. I agree with you, Sarra, but on the other hand, consider how our medieval forebearers dealt with the same problem. I may be victim to a common misconception, but my impression is that medieval infants & small children *were* segregated and supervised by a professional caregiver (to use 20th C terms), until they learned enough to be useful members of the household. Certainly, their notion of old enough to participate was different from ours, and I agree that it is best to involve children in real activities at an earlier age. I've often observed that teenagers who have grown up with the SCA are much more adult than their mundane peers, and I attribute that to two things: being included in activities with adults, and therefore learning responsibility, and seeing adults being silly, which teaches them how to integrate and separate play and serious work. We really have two separate questions here: How can/should the SCA deal with childcare for infants and small children? I think the only reasonable answer for this is to leave it to the parents. If a group wishes to cooperate to provide group care, that's they're choice. If some enterprising individual wants to set up a babysitting contact service, that's her choice. How should the SCA integrate older children into normal activities? I think we should encourage our senior members to start thinking of apprenticeship, squiring, etc., in this regard. I've met many youngsters who I would be quite pleased to apprentice, if I knew that I could count on their help for a few hours at Pennsic. A ten-year-old can carry and polish armor, or deliver messages, or wait table, or any of the other things that we do AND ENJOY. They'll enjoy it, too, if it is scaled to their abilities and needs. A semi-official body might help with this, by matching up needs and interests, by providing basic instruction in one or another field of SCA endeavour, etc. The Pennsic Pages' School, when it worked best, did this. Arval. From: ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) Date: 5 Sep 91 14:25:43 GMT Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Mikjal Annarbjorn writes: =In article <9109031341.aa24228 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, Sarra Graeham writes: => Even a child of four or five can help the kitchen staff carry =>things from the kitchen to the hall. (Mind you, the kitchen has to be =>reasonably organized to be able to use the children's help, but fortunate- =>ly this has never been a problem.) = =Not to disagree totally, but the universal reaction from the head =cooks (I hate that gawd-awful, made-up word *feast-o-crat*!!! 8-) from =both baronies here to this suggestion would be: = WHAT?!?! ARGH!!! NO WAY!!! Children down to the age of four have been used as servers in the BMDL. Firstly, none of the servers are allowed in the kitchen. There- fore you don't have the problem of having children underfoot in what I also consider a dangerous place for them to be. All the food is brought out of the kitchen and set up on server pick-up tables. There is a head server at the table to make sure everyone is taking the right amount of stuff to the tables. It takes an organized and patient head server to use their help, but it can be done. It won't delay the feast, and they often follow in- structions as well as, if not better than adults. Su segura servidora, Esmeralda la Sabia From: lcline at agora.uucp (Larry Cline) Date: 6 Sep 91 07:47:21 GMT Organization: Open Communications Forum In article <1728 at rust.zso.dec.com> haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes: >From article <1991Aug31.195155.18244 at news.iastate.edu>, by z1dan at exnet.iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory): > >> In short, parents, if you do not observe your children at all >> times it is reasonable to conclude that others will help to keep them >> out of trouble. Please respect their methods of parenting, and do not >> think they are any less a gentle because their methods and yours differ. > >I agree, provided that your concept of parenting does not require that the >parent be in constant attendance on the child. I periodically take two boys with me to events; one is 8 and the other is now 14. At An Tir's May Crown they decided to start boffering and of course attracted a large crowd of other children who wanted to join in. For myself, I wanted to watch some of the fighting so I left the elder in charge with some specific instructions for specific circumstances. When I returned, our neighbors had come over and were teaching technique and chivalry. I feel I have no problems letting my children on their own as they are somewhat responsible as are my neighbors. >> My main contention with >> children is their noise level, but a simple request for them to please >> keep it down a bit usually suffices. > >As I suggested, treating children as reasonable people works at least as >often as asking adults to be quieter or be elsewhere. Last week I took the 14 year old to An Tir's September Crown. He kept himself busy by volunteering for various things (he's been doing that all year) and ended up as Royal Page. It kept him out of our hair the whole weekend. The highlight of all this was that at closing court, he was given an AoA. Not bad for an enthusiastic 14 year old. >> Interesting idea: how many on here like to listen to the bards? >> How many children like to listen to the bards? Would it not make sense >> to compile a book or two of bardic stories, fairy tales of you will, and >> let a few aspiring bards practice their craft to the enjoyment of the >> children at the event? The bard will naturally be empowered to send the >> children packing if they disrupt the story for others, but it would >> provide a welcome, and period, distraction for the kids. > >My reluctance to suggest this stems from my feeling that adults would be >almost as interested in hearing the tales as the children. Things like >1001 Arabian nights and the adventures of Arthur Pendragon, Robin Hood or >Finn MacCool (Fionn MacCumhail) should have almost universal appeal. The >difficulty lies in finding a bard who is willing to spend his day, and >his voice, in the manner; and in the autocrat finding a place for this >activity to take place. One event I went to this year had a gentle dressed up in a bear suit and they had bear wrestling. At An Tir-West war (or West-An Tir war), the winner of the childrens boffer tourney was made a member of the West Queen's guard (maybe Captain? - I don't recall exactly). There seem to be quite a few people in various areas who enjoy setting up thing for children. It might be a good idea to seek out people who have similar interests when setting up an event. As far as barding for children, it would have to be understood (by the bard and any adults) that it is for children and thus may not be everything they expect for themselves. >> Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir > > Fiacha > Aquaterra, AnTir Garrick Mayhew -- Larry Cline lcline at agora.rain.com From: parsons at b.ee.engr.uky.edu (Greg Parsons) Date: 5 Sep 91 19:01:42 GMT Organization: University of Kentucky, Lexington Greetings Gentles of the Rialto, On the subject of child care at SCA events, well I have too many kids *grin*, and I don't want to put mine in a nursery-type environment. I have noticed that if some organized care is available, it seems to be expected that all the children will be there. During the too brief period I attented SCA events, I find that I _underexposed_ my children to the group in just this way. I have lately come to realize that one of the things that attracted My Lord and I to the SCA in the first place, was that we would be able to do this _with_ the children, and we never managed to do that. We are inclined to be greatly concerned that our children may get in the way of other gentles, and when it was suggested that the smalls would be better off in a separate area or with a feast of their own etc. we included ours in this also. Upon reflection, I am sorry we did. We are always looking for ways to spend more time with our children. In modern society, they spend entirely too much time away from us - in school or nursery school, or babysitting etc. I enjoy having the company of my little ones and want them to tag along after me :). To compete with TV/Nintendo/this-here desk demon etc., we need even more time. And the SCA is full to the brim of things both the children, and we adults enjoy in common! As it turns out, the activities I enjoy the most are also the ones my three (10, 6, & 10 months) enjoy the most. (Am I the only one who never grew up? :) and further, I don't think the nursery environment helped much at all. It is very hard to organize, and find people to do, as has been stated previously, and we found ourselves spending a lot of time running to the nursery/child's table to make sure everything was going ok anyway. Further, most of these arrangements carry an obligation for the parents to supervise the entire group at some point, and we found this much more difficult to work into the event schedule than including the children at all. Not that we had any objection to giving an hour or two to watch the kids as others were watching ours...but...we are invariably late to an event (having spent the night before up way too late doing last minute stuff), then whatever we are supposed to be organizing/obligated to help with etc. (I was attempting to direct a play on the occasion I am thinking of) seems to have last minute problems, get started late, last longer than it is supposed to, etc etc. (My Lord ended up preparing himself as stand-in actor for an actor we thought wasn't going to make it, when he was supposed to be watching the nursery)...by then it is feast time and the nursery closes etc. For the next play we were preparing (never performed actually) we simply cast the older two...they loved it and did well at the practices :). The baby, of course, would be a problem, but I would much rather hire a separate babysitter either at the event or at home, or leave him with relatives, if I am not going to be able to carry him around, than to leave him in a SCA nursery-type place. I could easily hire a student/SCA-folk to watch him during the play for example and carry him with me the rest of the time (I can do almost anything with a baby on my hip, including type, so I don't see why I can't direct a dress rehersal that way) and I think we would all have a lot more fun. :) As for other activities, everyone loves the bards, jugglers, games etc. so why can't the adults and children do these things together? Maybe the event announcement could list activities particularly suited to children, but not limited to children. Then we could do them together. I sometimes like to watch the fighting, so does my son. I love stories, so does my daughter. I love singing and shopping for interesting things I might buy, so do both the older ones. I get bored/tired if I have to sit still too long, so do they. Of course, I can deal with it without complaining as much about it if I have too, but I don't have to sit through court if I don't want to, and neither do they. Of course they also are inclined to speak up if they know a story or joke, and sing if they know a song, or even interrupt people if they get excited, but so do I sometimes. The only real difference I can see is that they are more inclined to make mistakes about period things (not much more - I'm not terribly good at it) and I don't see why that can't be taken in the same light as any newbie. I also enjoy more active running-type games, and could use a break of this nature when I get too fidgety. It would be fun to have a few games of this nature that both adults and smalls can play (or am I the only one who never outgrew tag and hide and go seek :)) Blind Man's Bluff is very period, and so is "Balloon" tho different than the modern ones :), and ball games, and I had a source that listed a fascinating sounding game where a couple was tied together in "hell" and had to try to capture other couples to take their place (the source gave complete rules and all). I think both adults and children would enjoy doing some of this - if everyone isn't too worn out from fighting so seriously :), and some care is taken by the adults for the truly little ones. And kids like to dance too - who says they can't learn the steps? Mine are better at it than I am :). Actually, just where is it that the children can't participate? They work well too, and enjoy it sometimes. While I wouldn't put them in the kitchen while the feast is being prepared, want to bet my 10 year old couldn't do a good job of washing the dishes afterward? He does at home, anyway. :) I believe, as well, that it is good for my children to sit through some of the boring stuff like court, and organizational meetings. They should learn when it is not appropriate to speak out etc. and they have to do this in school, so I think they can manage quite well in these situations, but if they misbehave in any way, I will take them out - remove them from the situation. Certainly anyone from four up can sit for reasonable periods quietly. I usually carry pen, paper, tiny coloring crayons, little books for these occasions and never had much trouble. My children occasionally sat through college classes with me, seems like if they can do that, they can manage almost all of a sca event. And I admit, I am lucky, in that if I can't deal with them anymore my lord can take them for awhile, and vice versa. I don't usually leave them on their own (tho the 10 year old does have a lot more freedom in that area - he is almost an adult), but if they should happen to be alone and in some gentle's way I sincerely hope that gentle will speak to both them and me. I want to know if they are misbehaving, and I want them to know it too. True, they are not quiet, but then neither am I (obvious considering the length of my posts :)) and I expect them to be able to be quiet in the appropriate areas, or I will remove them. (I always leave if I have a crying baby - don't other parents? And I don't mind leaving, I knew I was going to have to give some things up when I had kids :)) On the other hand, it seems to me that modern society is extremely intolerent of the presense of children. There are so many things/places that do not allow them at all. It's almost as bad as being a smoker :). I hope the SCA is not moving to this. Are they really that much noisier than the adults around you? I certainly have as much trouble with rude/over-extended/over-indulged adults as I have ever had from children. Well, I seem to be rambling again :) so to sum up: IMHO, it would be better for us to concentrate on more activities that both adults and children can do together, and expect the smalls to participate (or at least accept their participation) then to try to shut them away. Further, we should _expect_ parent's to take care of their own children, and if they don't then hope that they are the rude exception, the same as the unchivalrous lout on the fighting field is a rude exception, not the rule. I hope parent's who want to leave their children for any reason can make private arrangements if at all possible, or at least that others will understand if I prefer to include mine, instead of leaving them in the "nursery-area". Heather -- parsons at b.ee.engr.uky.edu From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Date: 29 Sep 91 02:56:26 GMT Organization: University of Chicago "Fosterage, an idea which has been discussed in not as much detail as I would like to see, was deemed not practical for several reasons (e.g., as medieval personae we are from very different time periods, and what would you do about fostering a child from a different period than yours?)" (Sister Kate) In the memoirs of Usamah ibn Munqidh, c. 1200, he mentions that a Frankish friend offered to foster his son. The cultural difference between a civilized Muslim and a Frankish barbarian was surely at least as great as between the random pair of SCA personae. Of course, Usamah turned down the offer--but the fact that it was made implies that the idea of fostering someone from a significantly different culture was not alien to medieval european thought. So where is the problem? "Although a goodish number agreed that children's events should be available at events, including specifically storytelling (in which children can participate)" (Sister Kate) One problem with this is that in the SCA, as in period, storytelling is largely an adult art form. Almost nothing in my repertoire would interest a child under about eight. I suspect that our modern association of storytelling with children is a result of large scale literacy and cheap books. Grownups can read the stories themselves, so only small children have stories told to them. Cariadoc From: jprod at sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department) Date: 29 Sep 91 00:57:06 GMT Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA Finally, the answer to... **WHAT TO DO ABOUT CHILDREN AT EVENTS** As you have probably guessed, there is no answer (sigh). I got a lot of mail on the subject, though. Suggestions/comments included: --If informal talks with the parents of problem children don't work, the officers of the group should tell the parents their children are not welcome at events until the problem is corrected. The sender of this message pointed out that this probably won't work if the parents happen to BE officers or higher. --Older children can, with proper instruction, be left to watch younger ones --Older children should not be left to watch younger ones --People without children should not be looked to for help/responsibility with/for children --ditto officers of a group --ditto those running organized activities (specifically, "Children should not be dumped on the dancemaster and left.") --Volunteer help with children is best, but can't be depended upon --A special officer should be appointed to make sure children's activities are offered at events, and to organize those activities --One group that tried the above had to kill the office because no one would take it. The sender pointed out that the group hadn't had any trouble with children at events after that, so maybe the officer had never been necessary in the first place --Fosterage, an idea which has been discussed in not as much detail as I would like to see, was deemed not practical for several reasons (e.g., as medieval personae we are from very different time periods, and what would you do about fostering a child from a different period than yours?) --Children can be served separately at feasts --Children should not be served separately at feasts --If you leave your child for a moment and find out that, in your absence, someone has disciplined him/her, you shouldn't lash out at the discipliner --If someone leaves their child for a moment and he/she appears to require something you think you can provide, you should be extremely wary of providing it without getting the parent's consent first. **The concensus, if there was one, seemed to be that parents are, first and last, the only ones who should be expected to be responsible for their kids. This attitude was most prevalent among parents themselves and a few childless ones who said, basically, "I ain't lookin' after no kids!" The attitude that children are dangerous in the kitchen was only slightly more prevalent than the attitude that children can be very helpful in the kitchen. Most seemed to agree that children can be useful as servers, and to that opinion I will add my own voice, as I have much enjoyed the serious youngsters at Meridien events hauling pitchers of water and ice tea importantly too and fro. This leads to the point about which the greatest number were the most voluble: Activities for children. Although a goodish number agreed that children's events should be available at events, including specifically storytelling (in which children can participate), almost everyone who responded at all said it would be best to try to integrate children into all activities in some way, exclusive of fighting, of course. One poster said (about children at court), "Anyone from 4 up can sit for reasonable periods quietly," which I personally think is pushing it, but I guess this depends on your definition of a reasonable period. Many posters made good cases for including children in classes, dancing, competitions, etc., pointing out that this can be done with a minimum of tailoring. No one (NO one) was in favor of the nursery/day care style of child care. Esmeralda pointed out that child care is so bound around with regulations in Pennsylvania that "day care" at Pennsic as such would be impossible (because illegal). Oh well. I still think the idea about a fence around the play area is a good one, and the idea of a hiring fair where child care is offered for the individual child or two seems workable (or would that fall under PA law as the kind of child care that would get us into legal trouble?). So there you have it. I personally disagree with a lot of these ideas, since I have seen too many cases of parents who refuse to control their children, but with the response I got, it looks as if Caid will be a rainforest before anyone wants to systematically organize child care in the SCA. The emphasis was definitely on the informal way of doing things. Heather said, "I always leave if I have a crying baby -- don't other parents?" Oh, dear Heather -- would that all parents were like you! Sister Kate -- Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc. 2111 West Hillcrest Drive, Newbury Park, CA 91320 voice: (805) 499-0721 fax: (805) 499-0871 via Internet: jprod at sagepub.com From: asparrow at cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow) Subject: Re: Small children at Pennsic Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 05:07:18 GMT Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO What Elizabeth said! I haven't done Pennsic, but I did Lillies with a 6-week old last year. The sunburn thing is very important: esp. since that age is too small for sunscreen. With older kids, use liberally and often. Baby bonnets were a real blessing as is a big straw hat for Mom. Use whatever shade is available (we imposed on Mistress Morgana for fly space for a time one afternoon.) The front-pack is almost indispensible. With it on, I trekked all over the campsite, hit late-night bardic circles and even sat through a record length court. It's great for shopping too since it leaves a free hand. If you're breast-feeding, stay hydrated! I didn't as well as I should have. This year, I want a leash, since she's started walking. And I won't be able to attend as many classes since she won't sleep as much. Take your child's habit's into consideration. Mine takes a long late afternoon nap, so I can play of an afternoon, but she'll stay up later, so not as many bardic circles. If your kid falls asleep when you put her in a front-pack, by all means wear one to the masked ball. Camping with little ones is not impossible, or even difficult. Aethelynda Calanais-nuadh Calontir Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: pavao at cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron) Subject: Crunchy foods (was: Re: Small children at Pennsic) Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering Date: 23 Mar 93 12:13:39 CST From Chandler Greetings and Appologies for his Liberty in the Subject! I don't know if this has come up before, but I feel that, for children of a more sentient age, it would be best to find a baby-sitter for parents that want to attend Pennsic and not sit with the kid all week. I plan on offering my services as a babysitter (such a misnomer!) in return for the child's services; there's nothing a child likes more than to carry something neat (a helmet, polearm, shield, banner, even a tent or merchant box), and nothing a grown-up likes more than to _not_ have to carry something neat. Humbly submitted, -> Chandler SCA: Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre MKA: Aaron Pavao NET: pavao at cae.wisc.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance) Subject: Re: Small children at Pennsic Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:09:34 GMT My daughter, Natasha, is an old Pennsic veteran, having attended her first Pennsic at 3 months. She'll be 6 this May, and will be going to her 7th consecutive Pennsic this summer (I love the confused looks I get when people hear that!). In addition to what Elizabeth and Aethelynda wrote, (and, yes, leashes are a necessity once they get bipedal mobility), find some way to mark your child with a easily recognizable badge that they won't easily take off (I've dozens of stories about my darling daughter happily running down the road away from camp without a stitch of clothing on - kids are funny that way). Also, plan on providing much of their entertainment yourself. Practically none of the "children's" activities at Pennsic is geared to kids under about 7 or 8. And the playground is often overrun by older and larger kids, who'll probably be a bit to rough for the really young ones. It takes a lot of planning and coordination between the parents, but it can work. Mikjal Annarbjorn -- Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields Work: mc3078 at sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon" Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu From: hammond at lrc.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: RE:Small children at Pennsic Date: 24 Mar 93 09:56:36 EST Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC Two additional points about small children at pennsic. (the previous posting had all good points too) 1) Sun block. DON'T FORGET TO SUN BLOCK THE CHILDREN. They can sunburn quickly and don't like constant pain. 2) For babies and small children you may also want to bring some Pedialite (this is a brand name and I am not sure quite how it is spelled) This is an electrolyte solution for infants and can be very useful in case of dehydration or related problems with electrolyte imbalance from heavy sweating. This is very roughly the equivalent of unflavored gatoraid. This type of product is available in most drugstores. We have taken this with us to pennsic and have never needed to use it. I guess we still have a bottle of it around the house somewhere. My daughter first attended pennsic at about 6 months of age, and has missed one pennsic since then.(she is now 4 yrs old.) Michael of Hammond Canton of Baelfire Dunn Kingdom of Atlantia Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: "Michael Squires" <mikes at cs.indiana.edu> Subject: Re: Small children at Pennsic Organization: Indiana University Computer Science, Bloomington Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 16:21:12 -0500 STEWARTL at wood-emh1.ARmy.MIL (LOU STEWART) writes: >Aethelynda mentions wanting a leash for her little one at events. Reminds I know that these were called "leading strings" in the 1700's and suspect that they are quite period :-). -- Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h) mikes at cs.indiana.edu 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408 From: tmyers at unl.edu (tim myers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA-kids Date: 23 Apr 1993 14:04:25 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes: >Oh -- on a slight tangent -- are there any cute "SCA-kids say the >darnedest-things" stories around you'd like to share? I need to be >properly prepared when my 8 month old starts to _talk_! Long before he was able to talk, Arthur, son of Graf Volkmar and Countess Isadora, recognized his father's SCA name to the point of recognizing it when the heralds called his father to the field for a bout, whereupon he would swivel his head around and stare intently at the field until he saw his father. He could recognize his father in full armor to the point of being confused after running up to a fighter who had borrowed Volkmar's shield and then awarding him a "You're NOT daddy!" look. Toli the Curious -- Tim Myers Toli the Curious University of Nebraska-Lincoln Shire of Mag Mor Lincoln, Nebraska Kingdom of Calontir tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966) Subject: Re: Youngest Award of Arm Organization: Loral Data Systems Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 20:01:22 GMT >Kristoff wrote: > I don't know about you, but having a child in the SCA (and specifically, > Johnathan the Younger, who has been active for his ENTIRE life) would > probably "greatly enrich our realm"...I would think that a King and Queen > (or any other parents) would feel that their child had "considerably > enriched their realm." Greetings Kristoff, If Johnathan the Younger has been active since 1978 (A.S. XII) and has been serving the SCA along the way, I would have no problems writing letters for an A.O.A. at this time. I however, do have a problem believing that a 24 month old has done any service worthy of an A.O.A. I have nothing against children "earning" A.O.A.'s. My own daughter, Mairi Eriksdottir (notice the resemblance:^)) was granted an A.O.A. when she was 10 years old. This was done after several letters (none from her mother or I) had reached the Crown. In her time she had served as hand-maiden to 3 Queens, worked the registration tables at several kingdom events, worked as a runner for the judges of our Arts/Sciences Faires, worked in the kitchens of some of our kingdom feasts and more. Now at the age of 12 she has been asked to serve as Minister of Children for our local shire. I hope I am not being too proud a father in stating that I believe Mairi has "earned" her A.O.A.. I believe my child has greatly enriched my life since birth, however, I do not believe that to be the kind of enrichment for which an A.O.A. should be given, just lots of huggs :^). Where are the "great and diverse efforts"? Erik. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Kreyling | Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P. kreyling at world.lds.loral.com | Shire of Brineside Moor Sarasota,Fl. USA | Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966) Subject: Re: Youngest Award Of Arm Organization: Loral Data Systems Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 00:27:59 GMT kohrn at sumax.seattleu.edu (David or Corinne Kohrn) writes: >OK. I'm going to stick my head out and state that I believe giving >a two year old an AoA is perfectly reasonable. > >Well a two >year old is entitled to a family life. Two year olds take up alot of time, >and may very well be shortchanged by parents trying to care for a family >and a kingdom. No I don't think a two year old should get a peerage for >these sacrifices made on behalf of the Kingdom, but I don't think an >AoA is at all out of line. > > -Calote > kohrn at sumax.seattleu.edu > (Mother of a two year old, and expecting in Dec.) Oh, please! I am the mother of a 7 year old and an 11 year old, both of whom have been raised in the Society. My 11 year old has an AOA, received when she was 10. She got it for being a lady in waiting to two queens and one of our more experienced reservation table workers. While we never have her manning the table alone, our Kingdom Exchequer says she messes up the system less than many adults. My 7 year old h doesn't have any awards. My husband and I are both Kingdom officers. I assure you our home life has been disrupted. I expect my children to get their awards for their activity, not ours. Our households life has been disrupted as well. These are decisions that must be taken into account before offices are taken or Crown lists fought. Besides which, its not fair to the child. How long will he be in doing service before he gets another award? An award that he earned and deserves, not an accident of birth. The person who deserves the A.O.A. is not the two year old but the person who baby-sat the two year old throughout the reign,and enabled the parents to serve the kingdom as King and Queen. Mistress Brigit Olesdottir, O.L. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Kreyling | Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P. kreyling at world.lds.loral.com | Shire of Brineside Moor Sarasota,Fl. USA | Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: legowik at cme.nist.gov (Steven Legowik) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: baby sitting services (unwanted) Date: 10 Sep 93 19:25:45 GMT Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology At pennsic last, I was deluged by people who seemed desparate to watch my daughter. Now, Amber is really cute and a credit to babies everywhere but people I had never met before would just walk up and imply that I wanted them to watch her. One woman propositioned me everytime I saw her(and I sought to avoid her). I checked with folks from her local group and none of them even knew who she was. Freaky, very freaky. Now, my husband and I knew what we were getting into when we elected to have kids, and we knew that we would have less time to ourselves. Subsequently, we worked out a time sharing arrangement so that he could go dancing and I could hang out with my friends. We did not find it a problem. We accepted the fact that other people might not want to be around us and our child. We also made a really valiant effort not burden our friends and household with the baby. Yes, parenting CAN BE a drag, but has it become the assumption of everyone out there that parents don't want their kids? Do these people really believe that any caring parent would just hand over a child to them without references or knowledge of their background? Did anyone else have troubles like this? In a related matter, did anyone hear about the merchant who cussed out the two kids on the playground for practising their recorders before the recorder class. She not only berated them, but threatened them bodily harm if she ever saw them again. I may not be a morning person, but this IS extreme and great way to make sure that those kids NEVER attempt the recorder again. Fursa Hand-Seinn Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Subject: Re: baby sitting services (unwanted) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 22:44:15 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! > At pennsic last, I was deluged by people who seemed desparate to > watch my daughter. Now, Amber is really cute and a credit to babies > everywhere but people I had never met before would just walk up and > imply that I wanted them to watch her. Were these simply strangers off the street or were they people from your camp or shire? If the former, then it was indeed very odd. If the latter, then they may have been misguided, but they were clearly just trying to be helpful. The obvious response is "No, thank you, we've made our own arrangements, but you are kind to ask." > In a related matter, did anyone hear about the merchant who cussed out > the two kids on the playground for practising their recorders before the > recorder class. She not only berated them, but threatened them bodily > harm if she ever saw them again. Do you realize that you have publically accused someone of a felony? Do you witness this event? Are you absolutely certain that it was reported to you accurately? This would be a Very Bad rumor to circulate without unquestionable substantiation. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: dani at netcom.com (Dani Zweig) Subject: Re: thought experiment - children Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 04:58:16 GMT ARCHER at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer): >...according to one of the historians in the Second >South Carolina Regiment of Foot (see also Goose-stepping Autheticity Nazi's) >"Childhood, as a period of time with no resposibility and no need to earn >one's keep is a 20th century invention. This notion was popularized by Philippe Aries, in his "Centuries of Childhood" (1962) -- that historically children were treated as "small adults". That it is an oversimplification is suggested by medieval manuscripts and illuminations which portray children at games, children playing with dolls, etc. According to Barbara Hanawalt ("Childrearing Among the Lower Classes of Late Medieval England", Journal of Interdisciplinary History 8, 1972), young children played, and around age eight started to be given significant chores around the home. At adolescence, boys started working in the fields. I suspect any attempt to generalize over the entire middle ages is pointless, but irresponsible childhood is not a recent invention. (Prolonging childhood through the late teens, however, is.) ----- Dani of the Seven Wells dani at netcom.com From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: thought experiment - children Date: 17 Oct 93 12:35:12 GMT Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208 Aethelynda (Angelia Sparrow) writes: > As for a 2 in the fields, I beg to differ with Ellisif. > My 18 month-old is capable of executing the simple command of "Take this > over there." I would tend to believe it. At one Ice Dragon of 100+ fighters, we had heraldic list trees. Originally, the children were runners, to deliver the shields to someone who would make the changes. However, the adults found it boring, the kids thought it was fun, so they got the job. Two 4 yr-olds, and a 5 yr-old; went *around* the lists, stayed out of the way of the baldricks [chirurgeons, marshalls, heralds], obeyed all orders from the baldrics (the marshall would indicate the winner's shield and they were taken to list table separate from losers), took turns carrying the milk crate to stand on, took the top two shields off each tree, moved each shield on the lower branches up one branch, put the new shields on the bottom empty branch, returned old shields to list table, and kept *all four* list trees going *without a mistake all afternoon* Frankly, this non-parent was impressed! - Dagonell SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony Disclaimer : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers. Internet : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bcfrench at mothra.syr.edu (Barbara C. French) Subject: A not-so-new insurance idea Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 12:02:48 EDT A new trend in insurance is buying life insurance for your children. Everyone seems to be acting like this is such a new idea, but the Italians came up with the idea in the 15th century: dowry insurance. The idea was that you bought dowry insurance for your daughter when she was about 5 or 6 on a 10-year maturation policy, which would be paid in full if she married at the time of policy maturity. If she died or entered a convent, the money would revert to the insurance company and the parents' investment would be lost. And the insurance companies of today think they've hit onto such a new idea . . . ...Cait From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu () Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: A not-so-new insurance idea Date: 19 Oct 1993 17:57:56 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Barbara C. French <bcfrench at