AS-compet-msg - 12/1/08 A&S Competitions. Example rules and comments on judging them. NOTE: See also the files: AS-classes-lst, AS-food-msg, AS-ideas-msg, AS-cont-docu-msg, AS-events-msg, AS-classes-msg, 5x8-Doc-art, local-hist-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Subject: Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules: Where Can I Get Them? Date: 18 Feb 92 From: dylan at drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club Unto the Rialto does Dylan ap Maelgwn send greetings. I am trying to locate the rules for the arts pentathlon held at Ice Dragon here in the Eastrealm. If someone could send me a copy or tell me who I can contact for it, I would be eternally obliged. Dylan ap Maelgwn Bhakail, East Philadelphia, PA Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules 1. No kits 2. Entry by proxy is allowed (not as such on entry form) 3. Items must never have been entered in any other competition before, excepting only that previously used patterns or recipes may be entered - as long as the entry itself is new. 4. No more than two items per entrant per sub-category 5. Category set-up is at the discretion of the Pent autocrat. All decisions are final. 6. There will be a 50-cent fee per category entered with a maximum of $3 per entrant. This fee is payable at the time of registration. 7. Historical documentation should b as thorough as possible, and in the case of written word entries, clearly identified as to where the documentation ends and the entry begins. 8. Entrants will not be allowed to speak to the judges during the judging. If there is something important that you want them to know, include it in you documentation. Music composition and song-writing entries may include a tape of the entry. This is optional but recommended. 9. Masters and Mistresses of the Laurel may compete in the Master's Competition, as well as any sub-category not in their area of expertise - ie what they were Laureled for. Masters and Mistresses of the Laurel, as well as any previous winners of the Grand Pentathlon may compete in individual sub- categories but may not be entered into the over-all Pentathlon. 10. Overall Grand Pentathlon Competition a. Entrants must enter at last five of the 12 categories. b. Highest scores from your five best scoring categories will be used to tabulate your Pentathlon score. 11. Pent registration begins at 9:30 a.m. and closes at 11 a.m. NO EXCEPTIONS! 12. Judging times will be posted. They will be strictly adhered to. Your item/performance must be available for judging at the correct time or it will not be judged. NO EXCEPTIONS! 13. All accessories must be placed on tables to be judged. NO EXCEPTIONS! 14. Performing Arts must be performed. There will be a tim limit - five minutes for individuals and 10 minutes for groups. Please contact the Pent Autocrat at least one week in advance if there are any problems. Three copies of documentation are required for all Performing Arts categories. 15. Cross-entries (one entry, multiple sub-categories) are permitted. A separate copy of documentation is required for each sub-category plus one copy to stay with item (ie - a pair of wooden and leather shoes is entered in wood-working, leather-working and accessories. This mean the entrant needs FOUR (4) copies of documentation. All cross entered items will be placed on a central table so that they will be easier for the judges to find. 16. Please do not bring actual books for documentation. Copy the pertinent pages as well as the title page. Books will not be allowed on tables with items. 17. In order to allow for thorough judging, written word and music entries must be postmarked no later than February 10, 1992. Yes this means that you have to have it ready before the event. All the entries should be mailed to C. Jackson, 14 Wild Wood Place, Buffalo, NY 14210. 18. Group entries should be noted on the registration form. Anyone who is using a group entry as one of the Pentathlon categories must fill out a separate registrations form. 19. Judging criteria and point system: Documentation: 0-5 pts; Creativity: 0-5 pts; Complexity: 0-5 pts; Authenticity: 0-5 pts; Workmanship: 0-5 pts; Aesthetics: 0-5 pts 16th Annual Ice Dragon Pentathlon Categories: 1. Needlework and Textile Arts a. Embroidery on Even Weave Fabric (cnt. cross-stitch, hardanger, blackwork, certain cutwork, etc.) b. Other needlework and beadwork c. Lace, knitting and crochet d. Spinning, weaving, dyeing 2. Sewing a. Pre-1400 garb b. Post-1400 garb c. Accessories d. Banners 3. Graphics a. Calligraphy b. Illumination c. Drawing, painting and printmaking 4. Performing Arts a. Dance, juggling, stage magic and tumbling b. Drama, puppetry and storytelling c. Instrumental music d. Vocal music 5. Music and the written word a. Poetry b. Prose c. Arrangement, music composition and songwriting d. Essays and research papers 6. Armor 7. Metalworking 8. Leatherwork 9. Woodwork 10. Cookery a. Main and side dishes b. Breads c. Sweets and subtleties d. Herbology 11. Brewing a. Alcoholic b. Non-Alcoholic 12. Miscellaneous a. This category will be used strictly at the discretion of the Pentathlon Autocrat. Any items that can fit appropriately into other categories will be placed there. hope this is of help to you dylan From: David Friedman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Limitations of Arts Contests Date: 22 Sep 1993 02:12:22 GMT Organization: Cornell University A recent exchange with Bettina Helms suggests to me a tangent that I think worth discussing. Bettina describes an incident in which, if I understand her correctly, she believes that she got a lower score than she should have in an arts contest because the judges overweighted a relatively unimportant but easy to judge dimension of authenticity (modern pigments vs hazardous period pigments) relative to a more important but harder to judge dimension (style imitating that of a period painter). For the purposes of this posting I will assume both that I have correctly interpreted her account and that she correctly interpreted what happened. On those assumptions what happened was, I think, what one ought to expect to happen. Given the contraints facing an arts contest, we should expect judging to be substantially better at the lower levels and very poor at the highest level. In a local arts contest, where most of the submissions were by people who had looked at one or two secondary sources and decided to try their hands at something vaguely period, I could probably do a competent job of judging in most fields. I would be entirely incompetent to judge, in most fields, work by one of the three or four best people in that field in the kingdom. Even in the fields where I am, by SCA standards, an expert, I could not do a very good job. The person I would be judging would also be an expert, and the piece would probably be in a particular part of the field where he was more expert than I. I might be able to spot places where the entrant had chosen to be imperfectly authentic but I would be unlikely to spot elements where the entrant had tried to be authentic and failed. Consider Bettina's example. If she is lucky, and if the contest is a large one, she may have judges who know quite a lot about period painting. But she is unlikely to have even one judge who knows enough about the particular painter whose style she is imitating to tell whether or not she is doing a good job of imitating it. On the other hand, she probably does have judges who know enough to notice, from her documentation, how period the materials are--especially since she mentioned using modern pigments. The judges have to do their judging on the elements of authenticity (and other desiderata) that they are competent to judge. This suggests that arts contests may be useful for giving beginners some idea of how well they are doing. They may also be useful for getting together people who are not beginners to talk about their art. But they are probably not very useful for deciding which of several good pieces is best. David/Cariadoc (who swore off arts contests long ago) DDF2 at Cornell.Edu From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Limitations of Arts Contests Date: 22 Sep 1993 13:23:47 -0400 Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto In general, there has been a real push in these parts (Ealdormere) towards what we're calling "Ellisif's method". One thing I really push in doing documentation talks is putting as much info about YOU into the write-up, including why certain fabrics were used (can't afafford silk and this was best substitute I could find, period materials are poisonous and this is best substitute, etc.). I also advise people to write up a general description of how the article would have been made in period, just to show the judges you KNOW, and then to detail the changes to that proceedure and why you did what you did. (For instance, I have yet to meet a costuming judge who took off points for machine sewing, as long as it didn't show. However, the same judges awarded extra points for going to the effort of hand-sewing). Adding stuff about the person who would have used the item is also helpful--peasant clothes are not expected to be exquisitly embroidered, for instance. I do wish A & S competitions would take Robbyan's hint and at least spend a couple of minutes talking with each entrant. Usually in costuming, you can't avoid it as you usually judge the garment ON the entrant, or at least someone who knows the entrant well. Gives that category a real advantage. Same goes for the bardic, music, and dramatic categories. I realize that would take more time, but......why do we do these competitions, anyway????? Regards Nicolaa/Susan sclark at epas.utoronto.ca Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: moore at mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore) Subject: Re: A&S competitions Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN USA Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:49:09 GMT In article <199409152314.RAA24296 at beagle.Colorado.EDU> conklinc at beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN) writes: >Greetings from Chendra- > >A question - how should (are) reproductions handled in A&S >competitions? ... >... Where, then, does this leave someone who does >a really wonderful reproduction (read EXACT reproduction, no >originality) in competition?? > >-the redhead- > In the Middle Kingdom Arts and Sciences Criteria, equal points are given to "creativity" and "authenticity" (as well as "documentation", "scope", "workmanship", and "judge's opinion"). An exact reproduction, done well, will score high on authenticity and low on creativity. A creatively done piece with no connection to period, done well, will score high (maybe) on creativity, but will score low on authenticity (and documentation). A creatively done piece in period style (as shown through documentation), done well, will score high on creativity and authenticity. It's a balancing act. Each kingdom does things differently. Peregrine moore at stolaf.edu "Remember--the best documentation you can give a judge is the stuff you worked from in making what you made! If you worked from a picture of a pot to make your pottery, _show_the_judge_that_picture_! Thank you." From: C11Hartel at aol.com To: ansteorra at eden.com (4/28/95) RE>judging ethics My lord put his two cents in on the judging ethics, now I'll add mine for what it's worth. I have judged several smaller arts competitions and have have seen the work of friends that I did not score highly. I feel I am probably harder on those I know for the sheer fact that I know what they are capable of actually doing. I once had a friend become upset when she did not receive a high score and I told her it was due to the fact that I had seen her put out much better work in the same area. My lord also enters A&S competitions from time to time and I would have no qualms in judging his entries IF I felt I was knowledgable in the area. This brings up the point of who is actually qualified to judge. I have a knowledge of inkle weaving, some calligraphy, and a bit more illumination but I am in no way qualified to judge the merit of metalworking, armour construction, or say brewing\vinting. I can say that is is a) nice to look at b) nicely crafted to my inexperienced eyes c) has a functional use d) it tastes/smells good BUT...other than that I am at a loss. The shire I play in (Tempio) breaks its A&S into two catagorties, OPEN and FIRST ATTEMPT. The "judging" is done by populace vote. Each person receives a bead for each catagory and as they look at all the items they are to place a bead in a cup next to the item of their choice. Some people base their decisions soley on "If I could take anything home this would be it," others take the time to read the documentation (which we do not make mandatory but do encourage) and judge from their own existing knowledg of medieval arts and sciences. In this manner the winners are chosen by their "peers". Also , we have a form for the entrants to have the populace place constructive criticism on if they so choose. These comments can range from the "It was really pretty" to "Here's another good source for you to look into if you so choose". Speaking of ethics and dilemnas, I once listmistressed a team-style tourney with a girlfiend and had the following happen. Our lords actually won the tourney by having the most amount of points but she and I were afraid everyone would holler that the list was rigged since it was our lords who had won. A final bout was fought (by the Crown's decision) with our lords and the next three teams which were tied for second place. In the course of the fight-off our lords lost a bout which caused them to come in second and one of the second place teams actually won due to the points system. If we had to go back and do it again the teams would not have had the fight-off. The standings would have stood as they were and any who wished to see the scoring system and points could have done so. It was very hard to sit in court that night listening to a second place team who had won in an "overtime" go on about the honour and chivalry and good fighting that day and not once mention the fact that the only reason they were up there at all was beause two listmistresses felt awkwarkd about having their lords declared the winners. Either way our lords lost that day... I have rambled far too long and my loom is calling to me... I hope this has helped a bit. Moriel*** Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:22:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "I. Marc Carlson" To: ansteorra at eden.com Subject: Re: A & S standards >> >...Here is a question I have had and I still get from some of my >shire (Tempio) friends. What is documentation? Why is it needed?/What >purpose does it serve? What should be included in it? How long should >it be? Should it be changed? If so, how? When? As someone who has judged A&S entries in the past, to me, *basic* documentation is like a basic Newspaper article, it establishes Who, What, Where, How and Why. Who made it, and, if reproducing from an original, who made the original as well? What is it? Does it have a function? Where would it have been made (space and time)? How would it have been made, versus how *was* it made? Why should I believe you? What sources did you use? (Any place you make a statement, expecting me to accept it as fact, you'd better be able to support it somehow. N.b., there is some dissagreement among people I have spoken to about judging regarding the use of an honest "I don't know" statement in documentation. I am willing to accept it if you can demonstrate that you have a reasonably good understanding of the topic and of basic research techniques. Some other judges don't seem as tolerant of this as I am, which is really saying something considering how hard-nosed I can be about sources.. >There always seems to be so much that I _need_ to put into my >documentation, but I have heard that too much is too much. If you can adequately answer all of these points on a 3x5 card that's great. I've seen people *fail* to answer all of them in many page papers. (BTW, you *do* know the difference between "Primary" and "Principle" Sources, as well as between "Primary", "Secondary", and Tertiary" sources don't you?) A final note, for me, at least. Don't lie to me, or try to hide sloppy work under a pile of BS. If you say it's a reproduction of a "period" item, don't use modern materials or techniques, unless you tell me right up front that it was done that way. If you tell me that "I made such a thing THIS way, because I (like the effect/think it looks more medieval than some other way to do it/think it will last longer/was too lazy to do it the hard way)" you may get some criticism for it, but not nearly as much as you will when I look at it and see that you obviously don't think that the people judging the competition are going to have the brains God gave a grapefruit. I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as: Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra From: Terry_A._Harper at hud.gov Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 11:05:46 EST To: ansteorra at eden.com Subject: Re[2]: A&S STandards and The Lack Thereof in Ansteorra >Quite honestly what I would like most when I enter an A&S contest is >feedback. I would like a little note from the judges that says "Your >documentation was fine as far as it went but we would like >to see more about discussion on how often almonds were >really used in period recipes" or "You need more >documentation" or "You need to improve your presentation" >or whatever. That would help me the most. >Clarissa I completely agree. I don't enter A&S to necessarily "win" a competition. However, I have gotten great feedback and information on how to improve my art form, which ever one is currently displayed, from other experts. Also, by entering or displaying, I've had a chance to get an idea of "who does what" in our game. Alot of times the people we can really learn from in particular areas, some are Laurels, some are not, have gone on to do other arts, without displaying, I would have never known that, for example, Mistress Branwyn used to do embroidery! or that Gunnora is something of an herbalist. These discussions are worth much more to me than any prize in a competition. Rhiain Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:49:25 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: ANST - Overlooked A&S Displays - What Do You Do? To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Llereth asked: >> And though in an >> ideal world one shouldn't have to, you could also go speak to the judges >> directly, letting them know that you feel that they have overlooked your >> work. > >An interesting idea. May I ask what your response to such might be? Well... Depends. If I did in fact go over your work carefully while you were in the privy or otherwise unavailable, I'd say so. This happens more than you would think. I am one of those people who always writes a critique. Sometimes, like Mistress Siobhan, all I can say is, "You should go talk to _________ who is the Laurel best known for this particular art in Ansteorra," or "I can't judge this properly knowing nothing about _______. However, _____, _______, and _______ are all experts in the field. You should try and speak with one or more of these people if you get the chance." Therefore, normally you would know that I had been there while you were away. But sometimes accidents happen, distractions abound at these events. And if I had inadvertently overlooked it, I'd go over and take a look then. We make mistakes too. Master Iolo once said a very wise thing, which directly applies to the art of judging: "The more awards you have, the longer it takes to get to the privy." This is true, certainly, if you have a Laurel! What it means in connection with judging is that while judging you usually have multiple interruptions and distractions: people who want to talk to you, someone who has a question that they believe only you can answer, a disaster in the kitchen that only you can remedy, one of your friends has gone into hypoglycmia and needs help... these are all things that can tear your attention away from what you are doing! One thing that SCA arts competitions do not usually do, but might should consider, is to use an approach often found in art competitions at craft shows: there the items are looked at by the judges while isolated... the art and the judges are all in one area, the public and artisans are not allowed in, which means that the judges can hopefully get the items judges in the least amount of time with the most concentration. Of course, in a "normal" art judging like this, no one gets critiques. The judges there are free to breeze by your work if they are uninterested in it at first glance: all they have to do is pick 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, and maybe a number of runners-up and honorable mentions. Since in SCA A&S, most people don't seem to want a clear winner or loser (unlike the Champion style tournament that Mistress Aquillane mentioned) we don't usually award ranked placements like 1st place etc. but we are expected to give critiques in keeping with the focus and ideal of education and furtherance of the arts. While I do agree that every entrant at an A&S competition should get a full critique from every judge in their category, you still do have to realize that it takes a lot of time and effort. Your judges are pure volunteers... normally we show up as Laurels and Irises, pad and pencil in hand, expecting to be needed as judges without ever being asked. We get no pay for this effort. Normally we must pay full site fee just as the entrants do. We don't get free feast. And certainly no hard cold cash. Yet we are expected to work our butts off all day long (owch! my feet!) much harder than we work at our mundane jobs and our normal reward is complaining from people who didn't like the critiques we did offer. At maybe a third of A&S events, the autocrat will remember to thank the judges -- we're Laurels, it's our job, right? But it's also our recreation time. Don't get me wrong... judging these things *is* our job, and most of us like doing it or we wouldn't volunteer to judge in the first place! And giving everyone a good, thorough, critique is likewise the ideal. We try, and maybe we need to work out better methods of doing these things. So cut the judges from slack, don't assume malice or a deliberate snub where overwork and distraction may be the culprits. I for one certainly don't mind being asked if I skipped your table. So ask me if you think I have, I'll try to make it right. Here are some problems with A&S judging that I have seen that maybe we all should be working on together, with some suggested ideas for improvement: (1) non-uniform judging caused by no standardized judge training Solution: find out what a good judge is and start teaching people. (2) not enough judges Autocrats and A&S coordinators, call and get a head-count on judges who will be attending. Call more Laurels and tell them you are short of judges and ask if they can attend. Try to have one judge for every six entries so the judges aren't overworked. (3) constant distractions Close the A&S display area for a while while formal judging is going on (won't work for body of work displays, but even there you can run out everyone except the artisans and judges.) (4) unappreciated judges At the last Kingdom A&S, Saint Seraphina the Bounteous set up a Laurels-only buffet and a Laurels only lounge area that made it easy for the judges to take short breaks and to be sure that they had food and beverages so they were happy and not about to faint on their feet: this was a fantastic idea and really made the judges feel appreciated. Remember to thank the judges. I'm sure that other people will be able to think of more. Communication gets down to the root of it. Tell us if you've been missed! There may be a very good reason, which may be a mistake, but do ask! Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde Subject: Re: ANST - Documentation Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:59:20 MST From: "Russell Husted" To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Your raise an issue that has been the subject of (occasionally heated) debate: documentation for A&S entries. There seems to be a trend towards putting more emphasis on documentation than on the work itself. (I'm not picking on you or this particular competition, you just reminded me of this ongoing debate, and some of the "fallout" it has brought.) An artisan recently put it to me something like this: "I'm an artisan. I make things. I make them in a period style, using period methods as much as possible, and with as much craftsmanship as I can. But, lately, I can't even get a positive comment from the judges, let alone win a competition. All they want to talk about is my documentation (or lack thereof). /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Just my two cents. What do *you* think? Michael Silverhands I would like to see two kinds of A&S. I would like to see an artisans competition as well as the A&S as it currently is. I do many periodish crafts that I have no way to document, much less wish to waste massive amounts of time on doing documentation for my less important endevours. I do not believe that a winner or an artisans competition should receive a title posistion or anything like that, but that it should be availible. Fighters do not document their move moves, although the classic ones work best. Bards do not document their work, because much of it is new-I wrote my story in this style because.... But Arts and Sciences is just that "AND" When I produce a scroll design, I must be able to document it. I must understand some of the whys and wherefor of my product. My first time at refair, I almost died from "Accent Poisoning" I was speaking with a woman who's accent was part souther london, part northern england with an irish tinge, but not quite scottish, and she clamed to be french. I realize most people do not recognize accent, but I do to some exstent and I found conversation with her almost painful. I do not hold anything against her and said nothing to her about it, but, If I were to turn in a scroll done the same way, this part is 4th century Irish and this part of the same page is 14th century french, I know a few laurels who would get almost sick on the spot-and rightly so. I was recently in an A$S and of the 50 points possible, I lost 20% of my score do to lack of documentation. The problem was, I did not clearly state what I was entering. I enterred a scroll design, so I documetned the design. The judges thought I was entering a painted scroll, because I provided one as a sample on how that scroll might be painted. So I lost points and received comments like, more documentation needed. It was my fault. I did not state clearly what I was asking them to judge. I do not feel I could have given any more documentation than what I did, but, I could have explained clearly what I was submitting. I did get an interview after the entire competition was over with the judge. That was excellent. She gave me many good comments and ideas to work with. During the interview, I explained many of the things I did and why as well as pointed out the footnote that had been missed, and feel my score might have changed if the interview had happened as part of the competition. It was not for a couple of days till I figured out that they had judged the wrong thing, and that I did not state it clearly. I am not discuraged from A$S and will enter them again, but there are many arts I enjoy doing that I will never enter into an A&S as long as documentation is needed. My chainmail is chainmail, my cardweaving is cardweaving, but I am just doing a craft. I do not want to documetn it, unless I am doing something real speacial. There are many masters of these and many other crafts, and I claim no level of mastery in them. I just love to do them, but will not enter them in anything, because there is no forum forum for just an artisan. with respect Mahee a rapier fighter, a weaver, a calligrapher, an illuminator, a wood worker, a dancer, and working on being a brewer and storyteller, as well as a few that I can't think of right now. Subject: ANST - Bare Table A & S Date: Mon, 10 May 99 14:12:37 MST From: Scot Eddy To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG I have often wondered which of my items would get a better score. An acrylic painted icon with brass leaf on an acrylic gesso board WITH a snazzy faux brick wall, incense, palm leaves, candles, and fru-fru and documentation vs. an egg tempera icon with gold leaf on a period gesso board and a plain frame on which to display it with documentation. All things being equal I think that the gussied up A & S entry would be much more likely to win. My arguement is "If you're judging the piece, judge the piece." No need for all of the additional material. I would like to see a rule something to the effect of "Nothing is to be on the table but a plain, black piece of cloth, the item, and it's documentation. Level the playing field and return the emphasis to the item itself. Jovian Subject: Re: ANST - laurels competing Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:20:58 MST From: HLOriana at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG lealdricson at hotmail.com writes: << Some people will not enter an A&S competition where a laurel is competing because they think that their work is not good enough. They will withdraw or dont compete simply out of embarrassment (been there, done that). What can be done to change this perception? The solution in the past has been to not allow the Laurels to compete. This may not be the correct solution, but it was one way to get contestants of lower skill levels to enter their work so that it could be seen and critiqued. >> In some Kingdoms it is common to compete against a standard, not against the other artisans. An individual item can win a first, second, or third place against that standard and there can be more than one item placed at each level within a category. A broad category with a lot of entries might have 3 firsts, a second and 2 thirds. A category might not have ANY firsts, if no entry was up to that level. Oriana Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:37:56 -0700 From: Lilinah Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period Ingredients, was Historical Apples To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Daniel wrote: <<< if the documentation does not at least mention that they are using non-period apples (a caveat similar to what has been previously mentioned) then I too would mark the individual down. >>> De responded: <<< Even for a novice? >>> I am flabbergasted that some people think that apples in our dishes must be guaranteed period or we get points off. Well, Bunky, if this applies to apples, it applies to EVERY SINGLE ONE of our ingredients. And the idea that we have to explain just how period or non-period each and every one of our ingredients is riling me up! Now, i love doing research. And i do make an effort to replace obviously modern ingredients with something a bit less modern. But i just don't believe that it is possible for every ingredient. Take my Rock Cornish Game Hens. I know they're not period. But i also know that the chickens sold in the supermarket today in the US are not period either. Now, it was mentioned by someone on this list (Daniel?) that if i didn't mention that my diminutive fowl were not period, i should have had points taken away. But what i want to know is, if i had used a standard chicken from the supermarket, should i have also have had points taken away if i neglected to mention that it, too, is far from period? Because, lemme tell ya, when i was a kid the chickens really did NOT have such big bazoingers as they do now. I would eat a chicken breast and it was a reasonably sized piece of meat. But nowadays, i cut each breast in half again because they are just farkin' HYOOOG! I've judged a lot of cooking competitions and rarely, if ever, does the entrant track down the history, pedigree, heritage, and provenance of every ingredient used. And it has NOT been expected of them. I think if someone "goes the extra mile" to get some "perfectly period" ingredients, they deserve props (and we have a place on our form where judges can add up to 5 additional points). But i don't think this should be required, and i think that people should not get ding'ed for using chicken, turnips, or salt that they buy in the supermarket. ----- Do we know the breeds of the chicken, beef, lamb, goat, pork, or any other domesticated animal we buy in the market? There have been intensive and extensive breeding programs throughout the world, including even bringing modern animal breeds into developing countries, to replace their traditional breeds, which are rapidly disappearing. Do we know the heritage of every herb and spice we use? Can most of us say with certainty that such things comes from stock that has not been somehow improved or changed over the course of the intervening 500 years or more? Many spices are grown today far from where they were grown "in period". Does this disqualify them? Should we get points knocked off for not knowing the provenance of the seasonings we use? How about fruits and vegetables? Do we trace the heritage of the seedless raisins we put into a dish? Were seedless raisins even common in period? In the 15th c. Ottoman cookbook, for example, there are frequently instructions for taking the seeds out of raisins. Same goes for turnips, celery (which we all know is totally unlike period celery), spinach, chard, cabbages, mushrooms, cherries, strawberries. Heck, most commercially grown strawberries today (in the US and probably most everywhere) are a hybrid of 2 New World strawberries. So should people enter dishes only if they grow their own fraise du bois (Fragaria vesca) or fraise hautbois (Fragaria moschata)? Should their points be decreased for using modern strawberries? What about rice? wheat? barley? Do we know to what degree what we buy has been hybridized over the past 500 years? Do we know just how close or far it is from what was used in our recipes? How about milk? Most commercial milk in the US is from Holsteins that have been intensively bred to produce mass quantities of milk (can't speak for other countries, but i'm sure you have your own issues). Yet most of us know that milk has different characteristics depending on what breed of cow it comes from and what the animals have been eating. Same is true of butter, cheeses, yogurt, and every other dairy product. How does it differ from what would have been produced in the time period and place of the recipe we used? How much of this do most of us know? Do we use "Philadelphia Brand" cream cheese (a detestable execrable product) as a fresh cheese? Do we mention all the additives in it in our docs? (i'm fortunate, i can get *good* cream cheese, Gina Marie brand) And before we enter a competition with a recipe using a dairy product, are we required to determine if the animal whose milk was used was eating a period diet? ----- In the USA, at least, there's hardly a commercially available food plant or animal that hasn't been altered in some way by selective breeding or hybridizing. Do we need to state this about each and every one of our ingredients in all our cooking entries? I think it is ridiculous to expect entrants in SCA cooking competitions to know just exactly how "period" every ingredient is that they've used, and to document it! Again, the only exceptions i can think of are when entrants have gone out of their way to very actively track down "period" breeds or plants, and mention this in their documentation. Then they get extra points. So i absolutely do not expect someone to mention whether or not their apples are period. But so far only one person on this list has mentioned a very very expensive way to get some apples that might sort-of be kinda period - or at least one or two hundred years out of period, other than growing one's own, which is just not an option for many of us. I was recently reading about how different modern SALT is from historical salt of the recent past, of the 19th century - not just in the way the salt is dried, but in the various methods now used to produce very white salt, not to mention added anti-caking agents, the removal of all trace minerals and the addition of iodine. Those who have said that the entrant should have mentioned if they weren't period, do you note in your docs that your salt is not period, or go out of your way to get the same type of salt that would have been used in the time and region of your recipe? Do you mention whether your salt was from evaporation pools or from mines? What was the size of the salt crystals? Was the salt of the time and place of the recipe pink, rust, tan, yellow, green, grey, black? Did you buy impure salt and purify it yourself at home? Or, if not, did you add those directions to your documentation for your dish? Heck, i've been marked down more than once for having 3 pages of documentation, because certain judges are convinced that cooking competitions docs should be only 2 pages long. I enjoy doing research and often do so to learn about period plants and animals, and i make an effort to at least not use blatantly modern ingredients. Now how long will my docs be if i have to give the breeding, heritage, diet or fertilizer and water type used for every single ingredient in my dish? Yes, i understand that it is good to know what sorts of items are obviously modern (Fuji or gala apples, for example). But there's just no getting away from the fact that, for those of us who live in cities or are otherwise without plots of land or the appropriate weather to grow all our own fruits, vegetables, grains, herbs, and do not have endless time to track down the provenance of every single ingredient and a bottomless budget to special order and have express shipped ingredients from far way - well, most of us ARE using modern ingredients and we can't always get the most historically accurate ingredients. Should we all be marked down for not mentioned in that we using modern, and not period, salt, wheat, beef or chicken or pork, etc.? -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:06:09 EDT From: Stanza693 at wmconnect.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Competitions (was: Historical Apples) To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org <<< What is the acknowledged purpose of cooking competitions in other places? Are they open to anyone, or are they aimed at a particular cognoscenti? -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>> Here in the Barony of Dragonsspine (Colorado Springs, CO) we don't have any strictly cooking competitions. Cooking gets lumped in with A&S as part of the "Domestic" category so my comments address how we did our last A&S comp. Back in September, we held our Champions competition. It is really kind of misnamed because there was so much other A&S happening. There were three levels to choose from: Display only - You could just put your project out for others to sample. No documentation was required. It's a chance to show off what you are learning, without the stress of being judged. Novice competition - Open to anyone who has been doing an art or science for less than 2 years. Minimal documentation was required. Champions competition - Graded on kingdom standard judging forms. Full documentation was required. Expect stiff judging and strong critique. Several other baronies use the same or similar format. The Outlands as a whole has Queen's Prize Competition and Kingdom A&S Competition. I've lived in kingdoms where you have to enter your project at some lower level before advancing to a kingdom level, but I don't believe that is the case in the Outlands. When I first began to enter competitions, I was told to consider the Kingdom competition as "The Crown Tourney of A&S". A certain level of artisanship is expected. I got the same kind of questions that you've been discussing. "How do your ingredients compare to what they would have had? Why did you use a food processor instead of a mortar & pestle? How does your menu choice compare to what would have been served at a feast in your part of Spain?" etc. (By the way, I use a food processor because I have very bad wrists and using a mortar - even my uber-heavy cast iron one - causes me pain.) On the other hand Queen's Prize, is for anyone to enter. You must be sponsored by a Laurel, a Lady of the Rose, or a Flower of the Outlands (IIRC) to be allowed to enter. There is no "judging" per se, but someone else's sponsor is assigned to give you feedback. It is meant to be a more relaxed environment in which to get pointers on your project. I've gotten the impression that the goal of A&S competition, primarily, is to get as close to creating a period product as is possible, which includes cooking categories. Any substitutions are expected to be fully documented. The secondary goal is to educate the judge (if needed) and certainly the populace that comes by as to what would have been done in period. Given those two goals, stated or implied, I understand why the judges seem to expect more of the entrants. -- Constanza Marina de Huelva Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:54:25 -0800 From: David Walddon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Competitions (was: Historical Apples) To: Cooks within the SCA Stanza wrote: <<< I've gotten the impression that the goal of A&S competition, primarily, is to get as close to creating a period product as is possible, which includes cooking categories. >>> I think this is the real crux of the whole discussion. Competitions should first figure out what they "primarily" trying to do and then criteria should be aligned to that vision. If you are looking to encourage participation the judging criteria should be different than if you are looking for a Kingdom A&S Champion. And if you are looking for the Kingdom A&S Champion what do you want in this Champion? Someone that can present their starting point, process, findings and the object? Or just the object? Start with the end in mind before you develop criteria. Eduardo Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:21:21 -0600 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Display was A&S ENTRIES To: "Cooks within the SCA" Stefan wrote: Okay, but I often heard suggestions about putting A&S food entries onto fancy plates, perhaps in an intricate place setting with other food items and wine and so forth, even if the one item is all that is being judged, and not the entire place setting. So if all we are judging, why not just place it on a plain plate? And I've seen other A&S entries in other areas with all this extra as well, so it isn't only something suggested for food items. So whether Daniel was being snarky or not, I think he brings up a good question. Should all this extra stuff even be in an A&S display, and if it should be, how much is too much? And is it truly the entry item being judged or is it the entire display? My response: It my contention whether we admit it or not tis all display. We judge the picture with frame that surrounds it. It is how we think and how we are. We gild the lily without realizing we do. It is only noticed when it is exaggerated. I asked the judges to judge the hole and not the plank that surrounded it. They laughted and thought it a fine jest. Daniel Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:08:27 -0600 From: Jennifer Carlson Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Display was A&S Entries To: Cooks list <<< Okay, but I often heard suggestions about putting A&S food entries onto fancy plates, perhaps in an intricate place setting with other food items and wine and so forth, even if the one item is all that is being judged, and not the entire place setting. So if all we are judging, why not just place it on a plain plate? And I've seen other A&S entries in other areas with all this extra as well, so it isn't only something suggested for food items. So whether Daniel was being snarky or not, I think he brings up a good question. Should all this extra stuff even be in an A&S display, and if it should be, how much is too much? And is it truly the entry item being judged or is it the entire display? My response: It my contention whether we admit it or not tis all display. We judge the picture with frame that surrounds it. It is how we think and how we are. We gild the lily without realizing we do. It is only noticed when it is exaggerated. I asked the judges to judge the hole and not the plank that surrounded it. They laughted and thought it a fine jest. Daniel >>> The over-dressing of a display is a personal pet peeve. The Macy's Christmas Window approach makes me think that either the entrant is hoping to hide flaws with flash, or that I'll give extra points for packaging. I find too much decoration distracting. I've seen displays that were as much as 80% froo-froo, and only 20% entry, and forced me to search through all the floral arrangements and statuary on a kind of treasure hunt for the actual entries. On the other hand, too little can also hurt a display. Case in point: a friend once made white puddings for a competition, and displayed them on a plain white plate. Some people thought they looked unappetizing, though they tasted great. A different choice of serving dish would have enhanced the entry's presentation. In her defense, she had forgotten the serving dish she wanted to use while hurrying to pack. His Majesty Gunthar's last Kingdom A&S entry was a meal for a 16th century officer dining in camp. They layout was simple and appropriate to the meal, comprising a tablecloth, a nice piece of crockery to hold each dish, and the necessary utensils and napkins for tasting. The display put the food in context which, if it affected my scoring on a subconscious level, probably affected how I judged his research of the time period in question. It was an enhancement without being a distraction, which is what a display should be. Talana Edited by Mark S. Harris AS-compet-msg Page 19 of 19