p-toasting-msg - 4/30/06 Toasting customs in period. References. NOTE: See also the files: taverns-msg, beer-msg, mead-msg, wine-msg, mazers-msg, p-tableware-msg, bev-distilled-msg, lea-bottles-msg, p-bottles-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: "Dennis O'Connor" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Did they "toast" in the Middle Ages? Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:40:18 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. "Cynthia Virtue" wrote ... > The discussion on 'things the SCA does which are thought to be medieval' > has got me thinking of another area: at all the large feasts I've been > to, someone (usually the ranking person(s) who are not Royal) toasts the > Crown, the Heirs, and the cooks and autocrat. Did they do this in > medieval times, at feasts? I recall that Hamlet's mother Queen Gertred drinks a toast to him during the fatal duel at the end of the play, and thereby is poisoned and dies. Also, a quick Web search found http://weddingspecialistswny.com/info/info24.html: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about the origin of "toasting"? As drink goes, wine has always been central to the wedding, even mentioned in the Bible. The first recorded toast was given at a Saxony feast in 450A.D. by a woman who became a bride herself before the end of the evening. British King Vortigern was so moved by the sentiment-- a simple "Lord King, be of health," offered by Rowena, daughter of the Saxony leader Hengist, that he proceeded to make passionate love to her. Intoxicated by the drink, possible love and definitely greed, he then bargained with Hengist for her hand. <<<<<<<<<<<<< And at http://www.eglin.af.mil/protocol/tainment/toasts.htm : >>>>>>>>>> Toasting originated with the English custom of flavoring wine with a piece of browned and spiced toast. In 1709, Sir Richard Steels wrote of a lady whose name was supposed to flavor a wine like spiced toast. <<<<<<<<< -- Dennis O'Connor dmoc at primenet.com From: gunnora at my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Did they "toast" in the Middle Ages? Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:40:41 GMT Cynthia Virtue wrote ... > to, someone (usually the ranking person(s) who are not Royal) > toasts the Crown, the Heirs, and the cooks and autocrat. Did they > do this in medieval times, at feasts? A related custom is the Germanic symbel or sumbel, practiced by the Saxons and by the Vikings. The Vikings offered up toasts, or Fulls. The first full was assigned to îÝinn, and was made for victory and the king's success. Snorri Sturleson gives Earl SigurÝr's first toast at a festival at HlaÝir in 952 as an example. Freyr and NjorÝr were the recipients of the second toast, which was for peace and plentiful harvests. The third toast was often made to Bragi, god of poetry. After this, men might make the Minni, a toast to those of their kinsmen who had become famous. At weddings, the toasts offered might be slightly different: the story of Herraud and Bosi recounts that the cup was consecrated to Þ-rr (Thorr). The first toast was made to all the gods, the next toast to îÝinninn, and the third to the goddess Freyja. These rounds of toasting were a part of the custom of Sumbel (Old Norse) or Symbel (Old English), both meaning "ale-gathering." Toasts might be combined with vows or oaths, boasts, storytelling and song. Tacitus wrote in his Germania of the custom of sumbel, saying "Drinking bouts lasting all day and all night are not considered in any way disgraceful." More than one sumbel is encountered in Beowulf, and in Old Norse poetry such as "Lok‡senn‡," where Loki is told: "Seats and places for thee at sumbel The Aesir never choose Because the Aesir know which wights To have at a glorious drinking-feast." Sumbel is even mentioned in Christian poetry such as "The Dream of the Rood," where it is told that "There are God's folk seated at symbel." The term "symbel-daeg" came to be used in Old English to denote a Christian feast day. The sumbel was a joint activity. Those participating came and sat together, usually within a chieftain's hall. It was often referred to as a drinking feast, where ale, beer or mead might be served in a ceremonial cup, and passed from hand to hand around the hall. The recipient of the cup made a toast, oath, or boast, or he might sing a song or recite a story before drinking and passing the cup along. While referred to as a "feast," the sumbel did not include food, but might precede or follow a meal. A sumbel was solemn in the sense of having deep significance and importance to the participants, but was not a grim or dour ceremony - indeed, at Hrothgar's sumbel in Beowulf, "...there was laughter of the men, noise sounded, the words were winsome." ::GUNNORA:: From: nostrand at acm.org (Barbara Nostrand) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Did they "toast" in the Middle Ages? Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:37:29 -0400 Organization: deMoivre Institute > I recall that Hamlet's mother Queen Gertred drinks a toast to him during the > ]fatal duel at the end of the play, and thereby is poisoned and dies. This is not technically a toast. It is offering a cup of wine to Hamlet which is something rather different. Possibly a closer analogy would be libations to gods offered by many religions. Roman libations were performed by pouring a bit wine upon the ground. (Or at least so I have read.) The use of wine for ritual purposes was quite common in the Mediteranian about 2000 years ago and forms the basis of discussions concerning ritual wind found both in early Jewish legal works and in Christian scriptures. Traditional Jewish l'chaim are offered in honour of specific individuals. Supposeably in Japan there was a sake ceremony which involved ritually sharing a dish of sake with the participants taking turns pouring. However, this was not in the manner of a toast. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar From: "Dennis O'Connor" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Did they "toast" in the Middle Ages? Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 23:32:22 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. "Barbara Nostrand" wrote ... > > I recall that Hamlet's mother Queen Gertred drinks a toast to him during the > > ]fatal duel at the end of the play, and thereby is poisoned and dies. > > This is not technically a toast. It is offering a cup of wine to Hamlet > which is something rather different. Well, I checked the text, and I found during the duel: ================== KING CLAUDIUS: The king shall drink to Hamlet's better breath; [...] KING CLAUDIUS Stay; give me drink. Hamlet, this pearl is thine; Here's to thy health. [...] QUEEN GERTRUDE Here, Hamlet, take my napkin, rub thy brows; The queen carouses to thy fortune, Hamlet. HAMLET Good madam! KING CLAUDIUS Gertrude, do not drink. QUEEN GERTRUDE I will, my lord; I pray you, pardon me. ================= Each of these seems a toast to Hamlet; is there perhaps an idiomatic meaning to "offering a cup of wine to Hamlet" that makes it a more apropos description ? -- Dennis O'Connor dmoc at primenet.com Vanity Web Page: http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/ Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:22:35 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Margaret FitzWilliam wrote: > In this specific case I ended up coordinating the toasts, but only > because I got proactive about it. > So how do other people/places handle it? This part caught my eye... Interkingdom anthropology? Around here the responsibility for coordinating the toasts (to the Royalty) usually sits with the Royalty's chamberlain (if any Royalty are at the event) to either ask the ranking Peers or to find a local person (usually a Peer) to coordinate the toasts. If the Royalty aren't present, it often is the event steward who searches for someone to coordinate and find the highest ranking folk. You should get thanks for being that proactive! Toasts are funny things - a lot of folk don't want to do them, but it's part of what makes a medieval feeling. Out of curiosity, have there been difficulties at feasts where no toasts are offered because no one organized them? As a Laurel, Pelican and now Countess, I'm often the "target" for event stewards to organize toasts when I'm staying for feast. "Alys, you know protocol. Would you arrange for the toasts, please?" I now often decide to stay for feast so there's a handy target in case the local folk need someone! And, oh brother! Trying to find the "rankest" persons can be... challenging! Alys Katharine Elise Fleming alysk at ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:34:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA Margaret FitzWilliam wrote: > In this specific case I ended up coordinating the > toasts, but only because I got proactive about it. > So how do other people/places handle it? Yep, Margaret, Alys is right... or at least, *I* was told that the chamberlain of the ranking royalty there is supposed to handle it. (I usually would figure out the ranking peers down to the third, and then declare myself bored with it and grab a random someone. It was fun.) What happens when there's no Royalty present? No idea. Aurelia Baroness Aurelia Rufinia Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:12:04 -0400 From: Robin Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: Cooks within the SCA Aurelia Rufinia wrote: > What happens when there's no Royalty present? No idea. I asked someone that at my vigil. The senior peers present compare notes and figure out who has the most time-in-grade. Or something like that. It's not a problem I've run into yet. To be the senior peer at an event, I'd have to be the *only* peer at the event. (Unless I'm considered "senior" to the lady who was elevated 10 minutes after I was.) :-) -- Brighid ni Chiarain, OL Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Robin Carroll-Mann *** rcmann4 at earthlink.net Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:00:53 -0500 From: Robert Downie Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: Cooks within the SCA We do it "backwards" in our group. We always get the most junior members to do the toasts, and have done it that way for 35 years and counting :-) It's nice in that it helps make them feel included, and it's not always the same people doing it every time. Faerisa Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:15:51 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: Cooks within the SCA It's the senior or ranking peer around here, not the royalty, that makes the toasts. The first toast is always *to* the Crown and Kingdom, anyway . And then there's one to any visiting royals, but that's about it. It was....odd....when I realized that I'm pretty much the oldest (active) peer in my barony, if not the one of highest rank. We have a local viscount who's pretty much a non-player, and a Count who plays but can rarely make feasts because of his work schedule. I'm usually in the kitchen, though, so the toast thing is really not something I remember to do.... --Maire Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:29:47 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > It's the senior or ranking peer around here, not the royalty, that makes > the toasts. The first toast is always *to* the Crown and Kingdom, > anyway . And then there's one to any visiting royals, but that's about it. > It was....odd....when I realized that I'm pretty much the oldest > (active) peer in my barony, if not the one of highest rank. We have a > local viscount who's pretty much a non-player, and a Count who plays but > can rarely make feasts because of his work schedule. I'm usually in the > kitchen, though, so the toast thing is really not something I remember > to do.... > --Maire Hmmm... when I'm stewarding the hall I always look for the senior knight present and suggest that he/she make it. If I don't know who is senior I find one that is likely obliging and suggest that whomever senior present in their circle make the toast. If none are present, unlikely, I would default to either a Laurel or a Pelican, best case being a double Peer. Is it being suggested that a Royal, in decending order Ducal, County or Vicounty, Peer rather than bestowed Peer have precedent is such cases? Daniel Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:04:41 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: "Aurelia Rufinia" , "Cooks within the SCA" Aurelia asked: > What happens when there's no Royalty present? If the event is in a barony, I believe it should be the baron/ess's responsibility since they hold that land from the Crown. The baron/ess would probably ask their local herald to handle the matter. If there's no barony, one would hope that the event steward would take the responsibility for arranging the toasts, but not all event stewards are likely to think of it. This is something that perhaps each event staff should discuss. Local heralds would be the logical folk to end up seeking out who were the higher ranking folk. If there are no ex-royalty (ducal, county, viscounty) present, then any bestowed Peer outranks everyone else and, unless I'm mistaken, any bestowed Peer outranks landed barons and baronesses. Then come the landed folk followed by court barons. Within each of these categories, precedence goes by "time in rank" - who received the dukedom, the Laurel, before someone in the same category. Unless a kingdom has something different than the above, the next people in rank are those who hold the higher ranked kingdom awards, and that varies from kingdom to kingdom. The toasting should, I believe, be done by residents of that kingdom. So, if Duke Strongarm from Ealdormere is present at a Middle Kingdom event, he is not considered in the hunt for the highest ranking person. If I'm at a non-baronial, non-royalty event, I usually take it upon myself (as a Peer) to ask the event steward if arrangements have been made. It is unfortunate if toasting the Royalty is left to a feaster to think about and start. (I was in one barony where the landed baron and baroness never made arrangements to toast their liege lords. We sat in suspense through feasts wondering if they would do it - never! - and then if anyone would be daring enough to propose the toasts in the face of their refusal. Talk about politics!) So, again, thanks to Margaret for arranging it! Alys Katharine Elise Fleming Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:19:40 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: Cooks within the SCA Daniel Phelps wrote: > Hmmm... when I'm stewarding the hall I always look for the senior knight > present and suggest that he/she make it. If I don't know who is senior I > find one that is likely obliging and suggest that whomever senior present in > their circle make the toast. If none are present, unlikely, I would default > to either a Laurel or a Pelican, best case being a double Peer. Is it being > suggested that a Royal, in decending order Ducal, County or Vicounty, Peer > rather than bestowed Peer have precedent is such cases? > > Daniel Out of curiousity, why do you look for the senior knight? After all, the peerage orders are (supposedly) all equal... In Atlantia, the one who does the toasts is usually the senior peer present. This individual toasts the Crowns. Then the next senior will toast the Crown Prince/Princess, followed by a visiting Baron/Baroness who will toast the hosting Baron/Baroness. It doesn't always follow this order...it usually depends on who is present. On occasion, especially recently, the hosting Baron/Baroness will toast the Crowns...which to my mind has a certain sort of period logic to it! Kiri Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:19:40 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: Cooks within the SCA Daniel Phelps wrote: > Hmmm... when I'm stewarding the hall I always look for the senior knight > present and suggest that he/she make it. If I don't know who is senior I > find one that is likely obliging and suggest that whomever senior present in > their circle make the toast. If none are present, unlikely, I would default > to either a Laurel or a Pelican, best case being a double Peer. Is it being > suggested that a Royal, in decending order Ducal, County or Vicounty, Peer > rather than bestowed Peer have precedent is such cases? > > Daniel Out of curiousity, why do you look for the senior knight? After all, the peerage orders are (supposedly) all equal... In Atlantia, the one who does the toasts is usually the senior peer present. This individual toasts the Crowns. Then the next senior will toast the Crown Prince/Princess, followed by a visiting Baron/Baroness who will toast the hosting Baron/Baroness. It doesn't always follow this order...it usually depends on who is present. On occasion, especially recently, the hosting Baron/Baroness will toast the Crowns...which to my mind has a certain sort of period logic to it! Kiri Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:31:12 -0400 From: "Elise Fleming" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Toasts: Was A Question of Serving To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Daniel wrote: > Hmmm... when I'm stewarding the hall I always look for the senior knight > present and suggest that he/she make it. If I don't know who is senior I > find one that is likely obliging and suggest that whomever senior present in > their circle make the toast. If none are present, ulikely, I would default > to either a Laurel or a Pelican, best case being a double Peer. Is it being > suggested that a Royal, in descending order Ducal, County or Vicounty, Peer > rather than bestowed Peer have precedent is such cases? Yes. Now, that's the case in the Middle Kingdom and I am assuming that this follows a Society standard, the variation being as I posted before, that after Court Barons, the ranking person is the one who has received the highest award the earliest. Also, if member of the Chivalry received the peerage in 2001, any bestowed Peer (Pelican, Master of Arms, Laurel) who received their peerage prior to that date would take precedence for doing the toasts. Double peerages don't count for twice the "peerage-strength". The peerage that counts is when the first one was given. Example, I received a Laurel in 1992. Anyone who received a peerage before Feb 22, 1992, outranked me. I received a Pelican in 1994. That didn't make me "more of a Peer". My "seniority" still dated from 2/22/92. Now, I became a Countess in September 2002. I then "jumped over" every person (Society-wide!) who was not an ex-royal, including those folk who received a bestowed peerage prior to 2/22/92. My ranking is below every Duke and Duchess, regardless of when they received their ducal award, and I rank below every Count and Countess who received their county prior to September 28, 2002. If someone got their county in October 2002, I outrank them because mine was given in September. The "muddy" part, speaking strictly protocol-wise, is that if there are no peers present (or you don't recognize any), then the offer to toast the Crown should go to the person next down the award chain. I don't know the highest awards for other kingdoms, but in the Midrealm, under the court baronage is the Dragon's Heart. So someone who received their Dragon's Heart in 1999 would outrank someone who received it in 2003. Practically speaking, most folk don't know who got what when, and won't get their noses out of joint if they aren't invited to toast the Crown. However, I've had to go up to some "old peers" and ask when they got their peerage so we could figure out who the "rankest" ones were. My most embarrassing time was not recalling which Duke reigned first, and therefore asked a newer Duke if he'd toast the new Prince and Princess at a Crown Tourney feast. At that time we had a principality so there was a need for four official toasters. I'd gotten down to what I thought was a newer Duke only to be quietly informed by him that he outranked the one who was slated to toast the new Heirs, plus being the Baron of the group in which the event took place - and he would really like to toast his friends who had just won Crown. I had to go back to the previous Duke and apologize, asking if he'd mind toasting the principality Prince and Princess. At that point, he declined to toast them... and I was off to look for the oldest bestowed peer. So, if it's a local event without fancy hats present it's probably just fine whoever toasts the Crown. Alys Katharine Elise Fleming Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:56:17 -0400 From: "Carol Eskesen Smth" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Serving and toasting To: "Cooks within the SCA" Here in Ostgardr (Southern Region, East Kingdom) things are slightly different. Our Baron will always toast Their Majesties, as host of the event, and then the senior Peer (usually me) will toast Their Highnesses. It doesn't matter whether Royalty is present or not; This is How It Is Done. The next in rank gets our Baron and Baroness, and then we have the cooks and event staff. There are always enough peers around to cover everything. Brekke Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 04:37:31 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshal" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Serving and toasting To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" I am seeing some inter-kingdom Anthropology here- In Ansteorra- the senior knight toasts the King, the senior Don (light weapon/rapier) toasts the Queen, the senior squire toasts the Prince, the senior cadet toasts the Princess, and (gets muddy here) the local herald or "home" peer will toast the hosting B&B(if any). Intriguedly yours, Betsy Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:32:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Serving and toasting To: Cooks within the SCA -----Original Message----- From: Betsy Marshal I am seeing some inter-kingdom Anthropology here- In Ansteorra- the senior knight toasts the King, the senior Don (light weapon/rapier) toasts the Queen, the senior squire toasts the Prince, the senior cadet toasts the Princess, and (gets muddy here) the local herald or "home" peer will toast the hosting B&B(if any). _______________________________________________ IKA, indeed. What constitutes a "senior" squire? I confess -- and meaning no disrespect to the merits of the squires of Ansteorra -- that it seems very strange to me to single someone out for honor because he or she is a squire (or an apprentice or protege). However, I also think that IKA is one of the really medieval things about the SCA. Other kingdoms aren't cookie-cutter copies of this one, only in a different mundane place. They are Furrin Places, where people are Strange and do things Differently. Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 06:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: A Question of Serving To: mooncat at in-tch.com, Cooks within the SCA --- Sue Clemenger wrote: > It's the senior or ranking peer around here, not the > royalty, that makes the toasts. Um, yes. That's what happens in Northshield (and the Mid. And also the East.) The question about what happens when there's no Royalty (note Capital R, which is supposed to indicate *sitting* Royalty.) present is that when I was Royal Chamberlain for the Prince and princess of Northshield, if they were senior Royalty present, it was *my* job to arrange the toast. My question was what happens when there is no sitting Royalty, and therefore no Royal Chamberlain to worry about it. Also, in the Mid and in Northshield, Royal Peers outrank the Bestowed Peers. So depending on the size of the event it can be a fun exercise in "Who came first?" From what I've seen, I rather suspect that the Peers in Carolingia, at least, take care of it on their own. Is that clearer? Aurelia Baroness Aurelia Rufinia Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:41:27 +0000 From: iasmin at comcast.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Toasts: Was A Question of Serving To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Alys Katharine wrote: > The "muddy" part, speaking strictly protocol-wise, is that if there are no > peers present (or you don't recognize any), then the offer to toast the > Crown should go to the person next down the award chain. This is indeed a muddy part and that's where I've always relied on Royal Peers to help out. Another thing that absolutely flumoxes people is when they need to deal with understand who *gets* toasted. You'd think that this was a simple arrangement until you realized the ideas of visiting Royalty, foreign dignitaries, local baronages and visiting baronages, and who exactly is sitting at head table on in the feast hall. Throw them all in one event and you have, if you'll pardon the pun, an incredible recipe for disaster. Iasmin Iasmin de Cordoba, iasmin at comcast.net Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:47:34 -0500 From: Tom Parr Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Serving and toasting To: Cooks within the SCA Just to chime in with some toasting bits of info.... In Ansteorra with what I observed during the reign of Miguel and Conal II as their royal Herald, Is that the toasting isn't as much as rank but who is willing to speak and proclaim the glory of the person in question. Toast the king - Any knight Toast the queen - Any Don Toast the Prince (if there is one at the time) - Any centurion (btw the Centurion is a grant level award for fighting prowess and command on the field and for those who excel at multiple weapon styles) Toast the Princess - Any Cadet Toast the local group - Anyone (during their reign I was asked to do this from time to time) Personal Toasts -at this time people will get up and toast those who deserve word fame or in honor of someone's passing All of these are not set in stone as I have had to do all the toasts at one time or the other as the peers or others were not present. -The Seamus Edited by Mark S. Harris p-toasting-msg Page 12 of 12