p-bottles-msg - 9/12/01 Period beverage bottles and stoppers. NOTE: See also the files: coopering-msg, beer-msg, wine-msg, brewing-msg, mazers-msg, N-drink-ves-msg, horn-msg, glasswork-msg, pottery-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:33:14 EST From: CorwynWdwd Subject: Re: SC - Wine >what did they do in period, and did they even HAVE wine bottles at all in period? Wrong question. What you wanted to ask was did they have CORKS in period... and the survey says: Late period in most of Europe. Through most of period I'm given to understand tarred rags were used to stopper stoneware bottles. The ones I've seen pictures of looked sorta like a Black Tower bottle. The corks were introduced from Spain later. I don't have the references at hand at the moment, but I'll look for them if you like. Corwyn Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:44:34 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Wine Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least. What was not available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling champagne-like pressures. Bear Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 18:59:12 -0500 From: Caitlin Cheannlaidir Subject: RE: SC - Wine At 05:44 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Bear wrote: >Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least. What was not >available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling >champagne-like pressures. Is this really an issue with bottles, or with their corks/stoppers? My lord and I recently took up glassblowing and I have a couple of blown-glass wine bottles here of a sort much like what could have been blown in period. Mine have fairly thick walls (much thicker than a modern machine-made glass bottle) because the temperature of the molten glass was (relatively) low. I'd be surprised if these couldn't handle a significant amount of internal pressure. Corks/stoppers that won't fly across the room are another matter! =Caitlin, glassworker - --Caitlin Cheannlaidir Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:23:57 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Wine >At 05:44 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Bear wrote: >>Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least. What was not >>available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling >>champagne-like pressures. > >Is this really an issue with bottles, or with their corks/stoppels? My >lord and I recently took up glassblowing and I have a couple of blown-glass >wine bottles here of a sort much like what could have been blown in period. > Mine have fairly thick walls (much thicker than a modern machine-made >glass bottle) because the temperature of the molten glass was (relatively) >low. I'd be surprised if these couldn't handle a significant amount of >internal pressure. Corks/stoppers that won't fly across the room are >another matter! > >=Caitlin, glassworker >--Caitlin Cheannlaidir I am given to understand that part of the problem is flaws in the glass and that unflawed glass really did not get started until about 1400 CE (in Venice, where else?). Of course, if you can not seal the bottle, you can not get enough pressure to break the bottle. You as a glassworker are probably more knowledgeable than I, and I would certainly be interested in what knowledge you have about period containers. Bear Subject: Re: ANST - Period champagne? Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 06:48:09 MST From: Lord Nikolai Piotr Danovich To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG >>>>>>>>> >What little I've seen implies that >the champagne-type beverages are late or >out-of-period due to the >bottles and stoppering required to withstand the >pressure. Any details one way or the other? > >Stefan li Rous ><<<<<<<< The problems with champagne (sparkling wines) in period were twofold. The necessary pressure to carbonate the wine didn't build up enough when the bottles were stoppered with waxed cloth. Corks were necessary for the necessary build up of pressure to carbonate. The second was that when the carbonation pressure built up, the in-use bottles were too weak to withstand the pressure. It was not until a simple monk, named Dom Perigion (forgive the spelling, please), came up with a recessed bottom (like we use today) that true sparkling wine could be made. I'm working from memory on the good monk's invention, but I believe it was during the 18th century. Ld Nikolai Shire River March Meridies Subject: RE: ANST - Period champagne? Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 07:33:06 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" > It was not until a simple monk, named Dom Perigion > (forgive the spelling, please), came up with a recessed bottom (like we use > today) that true sparkling wine could be made. I'm working from memory on > the good monk's invention, but I believe it was during the 18th century. > > Ld Nikolai > Shire River March > Meridies Dom Pierre Perignon, of Abbey d'Hautvilliers, is credited with the grape blend and refining in-bottle fermentation. The bottles used were of English manufacture and were the strongest bottles available. I've seen several years (1670-1700) mentioned for the origin of champagne, but I like 1698. By the mid-18th Century, commercial champagne production was a healthy, growing business. Of course, Dom Perignon's invention of champagne may be apocryphal, since, according to some sources, his existence can not be proven. Bear Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:36:53 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: When did they start aging wine? (was Re: SC - creations and creativity) At 1:31 AM -0600 6/29/98, Stefan li Rous wrote: >The young, small ale drunk >by the majority of folks in period will likely lose out to the fine, >aged wine drunk by an extemely small portion of the populace. I was recently reading a biography of Pepys (late 17th century). The author said that the use of corks was just coming in at the time, and associated that change with the introduction of aged wines. Of course, wines could be aged earlier in the cask, but the implication semed to be that it was only with the introduction of corked bottles that long aging, concern about vintages, etc. appeared. Does anyone know what the facts on this are? Is the "extremely small portion" actually zero in our period? David/Cariadoc Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:42:58 -0500 From: Melanie Wilson To: LIST SCA arts Subject: Glass bottle & Corks According to a book I'm reading in the Middle Ages there were few glass bottles, except for medicines. After cork as stoppers were introduced about 1650, glass wine bottles etc increased. Prior to that bottles were generally of eathernware, metal, wood or leather. Reading up on the history of Glass, trying to find info re mirrors ! Mel Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:45:40 -0500 From: Melanie Wilson To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Stoppers Periods Not cork according to several refs I've seen. Leather, wax, waxed cloth, wood have been seen in references. Depending on Period. Which always confuses me as SCA period has a huge range! The bottles and jugs I think are only valid from 12th /13th C on and debatable then, for 14-15th C I think you are well into the correct period. I only do 5th and 13th so can be hazy in between and after, I'm afraid, but I haven't seen anything Specific to the 13th (normaly it sayes Medieval again confusing). An definatly nothing of that type for 5th C Anglian. Mel Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:40:08 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Glass containers According to my books (listed below); a very crude glass, used for every day rather than display was made in England from the 13th century; Germany, France and the Low Countries (Li=3DE9ge and Brussels) from the 9th century. Most of their glass was impure and therefore had a slight green or blue tinge to it. Very similar to the cheap hand-blown glass we get from Mexico. Douglas History of Glass making sayes re containers The gradual revival of the art of glassmaking in the Frankish empire does not appear to have greatly affected the manufacture of containers and only small bottles, such as those used by doctors and alchemists, appear in significant quantities throughout the Middle Ages" "The use of glass bottles was greatly stimulated by the extensive use of cork as a stopper from about 1650. Until the beginning of the 17th century nearly all bottles were made of earthernware, metal, wood or leather. Early stoppers were made of wax or resin mixtures, but cork is mentioned in English litrature in the early 1500s as a material for bottle stoppers." Beer in bottles is attributed to Dr Alexander Nowell 1560-1602 Soft drinks first practical artificial mineral water 1770s, commercially produced in Manchester 1777 Mel Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:30:24 EDT From: CBlackwill at aol.com Subject: SC - Period Corks crigby at uswest.net writes: > There is a store called The Container Store and they have corks for all > sizes of bottles. And bottles too for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and then waterproof them with either wax or pitch. I have made several sizes of clay corks for my brewing bottles out of Sculpey clay, which works well (aside from the fact that it is not meant to be used with comestibles...) Balthazar of Blackmoor Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:09:20 -0400 From: "Gaylin Walli" Subject: Re: SC - Period Corks Balthazar wrote: >If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and >then waterproof them with either wax or pitch. I have made several sizes of >clay corks for my brewing bottles out of Sculpey clay, which works well >(aside from the fact that it is not meant to be used with comestibles...) I seem to remember doing a bit of research on this when I was looking into typical closures used for containers that might have held ointments in period. One of the books I do remember reading that may have additional information in it, secondary reference type only, is: Yarwood, Doreen. The British Kitchen: Housewifery Since Roman Times. Batsford. 1981. Someone may want to check on that publishing info, though, because I'm going on what's scribbled on the back of a lunch napkin in my desk drawer rather than the Library of Congress (my connex to it is down right now). A good book in general related to our cooking stuff here, but only about the first half of it is useful. Tons of very interesting information, though, both in period and out. Jasmine Iasmin de Cordoba Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:31:09 EDT From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Corks gwalli at infoengine.com writes: << >If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and >then waterproof them with either wax or pitch. >> My husband found references in "The Odyssey" to wine amphorae sealed with shaped hardened leather covers. I don't remember the exact quote, unfortunately. Brangwayna Morgan Edited by Mark S. Harris p-bottles-msg Page 6 of 6