lea-bottles-msg - 7/5/04
Leather bottles, jacks and other drinking utensils made from leather. Directions for make them and history referances.
NOTE: See also the files: leather-msg, lea-bladders-msg, feastgear-msg, horn-msg, lea-tanning-msg, pottery-msg, leather-dyeing-msg, utensils-msg.
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Leather Bottles/Cups (How to make them)
Date: 26 Jul 1993 00:51:46 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Directions for the making of waxed leather cup and bottle
Note: The idea and instructions for making a leather bottle in this
manner were supplied originally by a gentle who taught a
leatherworking class at East Kingdom University, by the name of Lord
David Wayland, now Seneschal of the Shire of Quintavia. I remain in
his debt for inspiring me to start leathercrafting.
The cup just came from me being bored.
Necessary items:
7-8 oz (approx.) Vegetable Tanned leather
-roughly 2sf for a bottle, .75sf for a cup
Paraffin wax or Beeswax
-Beeswax is more period, but a ton more $
-About 1/4lb will make one bottle and 1 cup
-If you're careful
Sewing Awl/awl & needles/whatever
-Something to sew the leather
Clean sand.
-A good bootful or so.
A stick, about the diameter you're going to want the neck
opening to be.
Useful stuff:
Wax 'Crystals'
-A wax hardening additive, increases the
amount of heat necessary to resoften the wax
Stitch groover
-Adjustable ones give you an even stitch border
to work with.
Stitch Spacer/Pounce wheel
-Better spacing makes it look nicer
Bottle Instructions:
Cut out a pattern of roughly lightbulb shape. Incandescent, not
flourescent... drinking 'tubes' don't cut it. Near the narrow end your
pattern should diverge from the shape by being much wider than a
lightbulb is at the screwed end. This extra width provides 'tabs' for
securing a cord to later, and to give the neck flute added strength.
Cut out two pieces of leather to match your pattern, which should look
roughly like this:
_____
[ ]
''[ ]''
' [ ] ' --> This area is a 'tab'
' / \ '
'/ \'
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
\_________/
(Should be a bit rounder/ovalish than this, but hey...)
Glue or tape the two pieces together, rough sides together. Run a
stitching groover, if you have it, along the outside edge, except for
the outside edges of the tabs. Follow the dashed outline for sewing
that, not the apostrophes. This will make a tightly seamed neck.
Sew with mid-size stitches (A little less than your pinky width)
along that groove, or along a line drawn in the same pattern. Make
*sure* all your stitches are pulled as tight as you can make them.
Soak the completed form in water until all the bubbles stop coming out
of it. (Normally takes about 1/2 hour at most) Take your stick and
stretch open the mouth and neck of the bottle. Normally your thumb
will work best at first. Once you have the opening, and some space
inside the bottle portion, put some sand into the opening. Force the
sand into the bottle with your stick. Repeat, ad infinitum, until you
have stretched the bottle out to a rounded shape. There is a limit to
how far the leather will stretch, but it varies. If your stick breaks
when you try to cram more sand in, you're probably pushing it. Else,
just stuff the bottle until you feel you can stuff no more, or are
afraid to. Leave the stick in the neck, as vertically as possible, and
leave the bottle somewhere *out of the sun* to dry. Forget about the
bottle for about 2 days, or a little less in summer. This will allow
all the water that soaked in to soak out.
Remove the stick, and use a coat hanger or some piece of wire to
remove all the sand from the inside. Poke and prod it, then shake it,
then go back to poking, prodding and shaking. Get everything out you
think you possibly can, then get the rest out.
Roll a piece of aluminum foil into a makeshift funnel, and cover the
outside with layers of heavy tape, like duct tape. This will keep you
from burning yourself. Melt your wax *IN A WELL-VENTILATED AREA*,
preferrably with a doubler boiler, otherwise over very low heat in a
saucepan. Heat your leather in a warm-ish (less than 200 degrees F)
oven briefly, then pour a small amount of melted wax into the bottle
neck. Swirl it around inside briefly, then pour what remains liquid
back into the pan, carefully. Repeat this until you feel you've
covered all the surfaces at least twice or three times. This will take
a while. Each time you pour the liquid back into the pan, put the
leather back into the oven for a minute or two, so the wax can soak in
and penetrate. After you feel you've covered all the surfaces, let it
cool.
After about an hour of cooling (I hope you've shut off the oven and
the wax pan..), try filling the bottle carefully with water, making
sure you spill nothing on the outside. If you see beading at the
seams, or if it leaks at the seams, go back and coat the idnside with
more wax, titlting the bottle side to side to hit mainly the seams.
When it doesn't bead or leak, find a suitable material to make a
stopper out of (such as a good portion of your stick, or cork), and
punch holes in the tabs to provide for a carrying rope. Now go use it!
One (well, several) note: Hard alcohol (very hard) does not-so-good
things to wax
The mottled appearance is normal.
The bottle is vulnerable only to heat.
-I've run over mine in my car, and it
didn't notice.
Leather Cup
Much easier.
Cut a rectangular piece of leather, with a length about equivalent to
1.75 times the length of your hand from wrist to fingertip, and a width
of about your hand. Shave/Taper the leather on the short side for a
width of two fingers at one edge, sloping from front to back. On the
other edge, shave from back to front, so that the two piece will
overlap, not leaving a lumpy seam. Glue or sew them together. Use two
rows of stitching, if you sew it, one row near each thinned edge.
Note: The flesh (smooth) side will the outside of the cup
Cut a circle slightly bigger than the outside diameter of the tube you
now have. stitch this to the bottom of the tube, making sure that the
'wrong' (rough) sides of the tube and the circle are touching. When
sewn, the bottom will 'dome'. Make sure you push the dome so that it
peaks inside the tube, rather than leaving a rounded lump on the
bottom of the cup. This way the cup will stay standing.
Coat the inside the same way you would coat the leather bottle, and
drink!
You can decorate these items, attach handles, whatever... all sorts of
improvements can be made to them. If you have a particular improvement
that you like, or have one that you can't quite figure out how to do,
let me know, and I'll be happy to try and help you figure it out.
Hope you have fun with them..
-Tracker
tracker at wpi.wpi.edu
Shire of Quintavia
From: Maryanne.Bartlett at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Maryanne Bartlett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: leather flasks
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 17:53:00 -0800
-=> Quoting Ben Davis to All <=-
BD> has anyone got patterns and/or advice on making leather flasks ? One
BD> thing I could do with is advice on how to waterproof it - I don't want
BD> to just make a flask around a plastic bottle, because I want to be able
BD> to fight with it on ...
Wax-boiling would be the best to make it not leak, unless you've
a good source of brewer's pitch.
Use a good vegetable tanned leather. Cut a bottle shape. (The
best looks kinda like the following...umm....picture, except that the butt
end is round and the neck end at a steeper angle. This looks too squat.)
/ ----------- \
/ \
/ \
| \
| ----
|two pieces exactly alike.
| ----
| /
\ /
\ /
\ ------------/
Sew the pieces together with linen thread (real stuff, plastic will
melt!) Soak the pieces in water until they're *wet*. Fill with sand and
sit upright on butt end. The sides should be really bulgey. (Hint: bang it
on the table like a sack of beans.) You will probably have to prop it up.
Carve a stopper and force it into the mouth. Let it dry. When dry enough
to hold its shape pour out the sand and let it finish drying. The piece
must be *really* dry when wax boiled or it will spit wax and peel. Melt
wax over hot water. When it is all liquid put in your bottle. (Pull out
your stopper!!!!!!!) Force it down into the liquid wax. It will "boil" as
the air is forced out of the leather. Do *not* try to heat the wax hot
enough to truly boil as it will flash into flame. When it stops shrinking
and "boiling" lift it with tongs and carefully pour out whatever wax is
left inside. Force your stopper back into the mouth. Let cool. It'll leak
if you squash it, but it should hold most of the water. If it catches a
sword blow, set it out in the sun to warm and re-fill it with sand and
bang as before. Pour out sand and let cool.
--Anja--
From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: leather flasks
Date: 2 May 1995 04:31:28 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
Quoting z009341b from a message in rec.org.sca
> Anja,
> You seem to know about leather--I have a leather wineskin (which I've
> used many times) and I'd like to know if I should treat the inside of
>the skin with anything (& if so, what?)? It holds the liquid well,
>but water (and anything else) does take on a strange taste.
> Thank you for any ideas you may have on this topic.
When I bought my bota, I found the same thing. I was advised to season it
with the cheapest, sourest wine I could find (imagine asking a wine merchant
for his worst brew.....), filling the bota, and letting it stand for a day,
then pouring off and rinsing. IT WORKED.
Carolyn Boselli Host of Custom Forum 35 SCAdians on Delphi
Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Sen. Canton Dragon Forge, EK
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:14:51 -0800
From: Holly Grimmett <hollys at geocities.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
Gryphon's Moon wrote:
> Has anyone on this list made a leather bottle, or seen period references
> for the same? In period, what would have been used as the stopper for such
> a bottle? Cork? Wood? Bone?
:)---Holly---<--<- at * (grin) * TechnoMages Guild BBS 619 613-1429 *
Haven't made them, but you might want to look at the Compleat
Anachronist issues on Leathercraft, #8 & #18. (Both are by the same
author BTW.) Issue #18 on pg. 38 has instructions for a pear shaped
"flackett" (flask) that uses a stopper. It mentions in the text that a
"stoppel" in period was usually made from a wad of cloth or leather, but
suggests using a cork or wood; he also says that cork is OOP, as corks
did not come into use around 1650. (I have no idea if this is true or
not myself.) Issue #8 has an article and instructions on leather
bottles starting on pg. 21. Both issues should be available from the
SCA Stock Clerk's office in Milpitas (or whatever they're calling it
these days. :) Most of the sources mentioned in the back of #8 are
books sold at Tandy; #18 lists several other books; one of them is title
"Black Jacks and Leather Bottells" by Oliver Baker, written early
1900s. The author mentions that he was able to get a copy through ILL
(inter-Library Loan.)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:34:15 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
<Holly Grimmett <hollys at geocities.com>>
>...Most of the sources mentioned in the back of #8 are
>books sold at Tandy...
Which means that you may find them less available in the near future, since
Tandy is closing its retail outlets.
>; #18 lists several other books; one of them is title
>"Black Jacks and Leather Bottells" by Oliver Baker, written early
>1900s. The author mentions that he was able to get a copy through ILL
>(inter-Library Loan.)
This is also available from the Honorable Company of Cordwainers for $40
apiece (as a photocopy, I believe). The HCC's library can be looked at
at "www.bootmaker.com/hcc.htm"
Marc/Diarmaid
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:57:33 -0500
From: "Stapelton, Gregory" <gregory.stapleton at funb.com>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
> Has anyone on this list made a leather bottle, or seen period references
> for the same? In period, what would have been used as the stopper for such
> a bottle? Cork? Wood? Bone?
>
> -Margritte
I have a copy of one of the original archaeological drawings, from when I
did some research there, of one of the bottles from the Mary Rose and it's
stopper was carved out of wood. A piece of leather was wrapped around it to
help get a tight fit. Also, in _Black Jack's and Leather bottles_ you see
both leather and metal caps that seal the bottles as well as other types of
stoppers of wood. There is even one where the top of the bottle was molded
to have threads and a cap, if memory serves me rightly, of leather, also
molded, was then screwed on. <I found that very cool, though it may have
been out of period.>
Gawain Kilgore
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:51:28 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
There are basically two ways to make a leather bottle. One's supposed
to be fairly easy, the other's a bit more complicated (but does have the
added virtue of being demonstrably period. Both begin by cutting leather
(5 oz or heavier vegetable tanned cow works best for this) roughly in
the shape of the bottle you want and soaking it in water.
1. Sew the outline of the bottle you want. Fill with hot sand, stuffing it
as tightly as you can, then place in a warm location (say, an oven at about
180 degrees) and let it slowly bake dry. Be aware that placing hot metal
against leather will scar it. When dry, remove all the sand you can (and
you really want to work on this). Then fill with your choice of either:
molten wax, molten pitch, or a mix of both, focusing on the seams. This
will waterproof it.
or...
2. Stretch the leather around a form, and then sew it. Bake this as above.
When dry, remove the threads, remove the form, then resew it. Repeat the
waterproofing listed above. While it is drying on the form, it is possible
to tool the leather.
You might also consider, after baking dry, but before using the water-proofing
on the inside, dope the outside with wax and/or pitch, to make the leather
better resistant to water.
An interesting detail about using pitch... Back in the dark ages of
re-enacting, someone at Colonial Williamsburg (and please note, I am not
slamming CW about this) got a bug up their *ahem* about pine pitch having
carcinogens in it (I don't know if it does or not, the reports I've seen
have conflicted), and so to be safe, they opted to use the *modern* gooey
black junk used in modern industries to line their repros, rather than the
pitch that people were using for centuries (Pine and Birch being fairly
common). Which means that silly people (like me) have (innocently) spent
considerable effort reproducing an effect that is, in actuality, not period.
The use of pitch and wax on such bottles, IS documentable to post-SCA period
(1700s), but some discussion is going on regarding its use earlier. I'm
inclined to doubt it myself, but am not currently in a position to do so
authoritatively. Hence the above descriptions.
Marc/Diarmaid
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:52:24 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
>#18 lists several other books; one of them is title
>"Black Jacks and Leather Bottells" by Oliver Baker, written early
>1900s.
I'm always amused when people use this book to "document" how to make a
bottell. The author of this book says right out that due to the high
incidence of attempts to forge antique bottells he is specifically not going
to explain how the historic ones actually were made. It's a good book to
have anyway, though.
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs.vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrriki
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:58:17 -0500
From: "Stapelton, Gregory" <gregory.stapleton at funb.com>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
> An interesting detail about using pitch... Back in the dark ages of
> re-enacting, someone at Colonial Williamsburg (and please note, I am not
> slamming CW about this) got a bug up their *ahem* about pine pitch having
> carcinogens in it (I don't know if it does or not, the reports I've seen
> have conflicted), and so to be safe, they opted to use the *modern* gooey
> black junk used in modern industries to line their repros, rather than the
> pitch that people were using for centuries (Pine and Birch being fairly
> common). Which means that silly people (like me) have (innocently) spent
> considerable effort reproducing an effect that is, in actuality, not
> period.
I use brewer's (pine) pitch in my period repros. A question that has just
been brought up to me recently is whether or not in the UK they were using
Bitumin Pitch in period, instead. The reasoning being that a lot of the
pitch producing forests were denuded in period for lumber, primarily for
ship building. Any info on the use of Bitumin Pitch in period? Did they
have the knowledge of it and the means of producing it? I always thought of
them throwing brewer's pitch down on the blokes scaling the castle wall or
sending brewer's pitch balls aloft from catapults, but Bitumin Pitch, when I
think about it, seems to make more sense. Any thoughts, documentation,
comments most welcome.
Gawain Kilgore
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:04:08 -0500
From: "Stapelton, Gregory" <gregory.stapleton at funb.com>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
> I'm always amused when people use this book to "document" how to make a
> bottell. The author of this book says right out that due to the high
> incidence of attempts to forge antique bottells he is specifically not going
> to explain how the historic ones actually were made. It's a good book to
> have anyway, though.
>
> Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
I hate to disagree with you Thora, for I rarely find you to err, and as I
specifically remember him saying something like that about half-way or
three-quarters through the book. Now let me first say, I don't have it to
hand because it's at home and my memory may be faulty, but in the back of
the book, almost like an appendix, if it's not an appendix, he does go into
how to make Jack's using molds and I believe he talks about making the
bottles using molds as well in that section. Either that, or earlier in the
book, he talks about finding the wooden molds for bottles. I'm quite sure
it is one way or the other. If you want, I can look it up over the weekend
and provide the exact references.
Gawain Kilgore
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:55:29 +1100
From: "Constanzia" <stanzi at theinternet.com.au>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
I don't feel comfortable drinking out of bitumen or paraffin wax because
there are toxins in them that could make you ill and wouldn't taste nice!
We're in the process of using beeswax which smells divine!
We've just made our first 10 bottles and are in the process of doing the wax
thing or rather figuring out the wax thing. The bottles have become nice
and hard however, due to my error in large hole punching through the bottles
and the tang (?), we've got a small amount of drippage. Any thoughts?
(Other than start again!)
Oh by the way, after a bit of experimentation, we found that 2.5mm veg tan
leather was great because it was thin enough to stretch to the appropriate
shape when we were stuffing it full of sand. Instead of putting them in the
oven, we hung them up on the line and waited until the sand was dry and it
poured out really easily. Mind you, it's a good time of year in Australia
to be doing this sort of thing.
Stanzi
Shire of St Florian de la riviere (South Brisbane, Queensland)
Lochac (Australia)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:37:13 -0500
From: "Stapelton, Gregory" <gregory.stapleton at funb.com>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
> We've just made our first 10 bottles and are in the process of doing the wax
> thing or rather figuring out the wax thing. The bottles have become nice
> and hard however, due to my error in large hole punching through the bottles
> and the tang (?), we've got a small amount of drippage. Any thoughts?
> (Other than start again!)
In my experience, one way of solving this problem, if you don't want to
start over and do it again, is that you line the first time the whole
insides of the bottle with wax and wipe off, let drip off, what leakage you
can. Note these areas and let the bottle sit for several minutes to harden
up and cool down. Next, you pour a smaller amount of wax in and turn, twist
the bottle to get the wax to attack those specific areas where there was
leakage, then pour it out. Again, letting it sit several minutes to harden
and cool off. If you keep doing this two or three times (usually enough),
you build up multiple layers of wax in those areas, each application sealing
the holes more and more, until they are finally sealed.
Gawain Kilgore
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:13:59 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
Gawain wrote:
>I hate to disagree with you Thora, for I rarely find you to err, and as I
>specifically remember him saying something like that about half-way or
>three-quarters through the book.
Of course, we may be looking at different editions. The edition we have in
the Vassar Library is printed by E. J. Burrow [1921], and has 190 pages.
It's numbered and signed by the author. What he says on my photocopy of
page 180 is:
I had written for this chapter a long and detailed
account of the method pursued. It seems, however,
desirable not to print it, as the value of old
jacks and bottles having increased, the temptation
to make imitation ones has become greater within
recent years and I have decided to omit most of
the details.
I don't have a copy of the last few pages of the book at home, though;
perhaps there is an appendix that includes some, as opposed to most, ;> of
the details.
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs.vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrriki
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:55:56 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: Leather Bottles
I've just had it pointed out that my message, while informative, I missed
the actual question (the use of stoppers). The Museum of London's
Medieval Houshold book shows an example of a wooden stopper, although not
specifically to a leather bottle. The only leather vessel it shows, a
tooled costrel has no stopper. I've used carved wooden stoppers, myself.
I've seen pictures of Scandinavian re-enactors useing rolled and stitched
leather stoppers, but I don't know what those are based on.
Marc/Diarmaid
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:45:45 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Leather Bottles/ Pitch/wood
>I use brewer's (pine) pitch in my period repros. A question that has just
been brought up to me recently is whether or not in the UK
Please note England NOT UK, Scotland & the north was not so denuded to
the same extent.
> they were using
Bitumin Pitch in period, instead. The reasoning being that a lot of the
pitch producing forests were denuded in period for lumber, primarily for
ship building. Any info on the use of Bitumin Pitch in period?
I can document its use in antiquity! Noah waterproofed his ship with
asphalt for instance.
see particularly Forbes Studies in Ancient technolgy vol 1
Singer A History of Technology Vol 2(Middle ages) states bitumin as used on
arrows & lances, although most references state areas nearer natural
petroleum deposits, where it occured naturally.
He also states some water carrying devices were greased to waterproof eg
water-budgets.
And resin or pitch was used for bottles, jacks etc, however as the bitumin
substance to which I refer to is known as pitch, this in addition to
vegetable resins may be a possibility.
I tend to agree with Marc that we may well be lining something that wasn't
lined at an earlier stage.
Pine as I mentioned to Gawain decreases as a wood in domestic and general
use after the Viking period where it was destroyed, by use and simple
burning to make more land avaliable for farming.
I am currently trying to put together a guide of plants used in history
as this type of information is very fragmented. eg when was a wood
avaliable in England, how was it used, what properties does it have etc
etc. I just got an article on fire burning properties of woods which is
important as in history they would use different wood for different heats
etc of fire depending on the application. Our crude impression of cooking
fires etc as being uncontrolable in terms of heat looks like it might be
somewhat incorrect.
Mel
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:28:47 -0600
From: "Stephen & Colleen Mills" <smills at feist.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
There is a chemical coating for food grade use used to repair food contact
surfaces it is an epoxy based coating and will adhear to metal masonry,
glass, plastic ect. so it will also work on leather. we bee keepers use it
to reseal our extractors and storage tanks it is sold by
the WALTER T. KELLY CO. for $9.00 a quart cat #353 ph 502-242-2012
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 8:31:46 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Leather Bottles
<"David & Sue Carter" <sjcarter at dove.net.au>>
>Question 1. Can anyone document this style of decoration using raised
>shapes outlined with stitches to the SCA period?
Unfortunately, I don't have my copy of "Leather bottels" with me so
I can't check out the picture. The primary problem with sewing on an
applique decoration is that it could give you more holes in the bottle that
you have to be certain to plug and keep filled with whatever you are lining
it with. On the other hand, you have to do that with the seams anyway, and
there are also ways of stitching that don't involve actually going
completely
through both layers of leather, so I can see it as a possibility.
>Question 2. Can anyone tell me how the Raised shapes were actually
>produced? I would think that an extra piece of leather stitched onto the
>inside of the costrel and then the surrounding leather being pushed down
>with an embossing tool before the bottle was stitched would work but I don't
>think this would be as successful with the bottle as the stretching of the
>leather would distort the shape of the raised material.
I've give this some serious thought, although I've never managed to find
a form I was happy enough to work with. The two ways I can think of to
do this with are 1) using an internal form to raise the area in question,
and 2) using an external mold to guarantee the decoration. In the first
case, when the leather is wet, you actually tool the decoration you want
on the form as it is drying. In the second case, you'd need some way to
push the leather out into the mold, and I'm not sure that sand would do
the trick. I'm thinking that (1) is the more likely (barring other
evidence).
>Question 3. While I have generally used bees wax for my bottles and I have
>tried bituminous pitch, I have not been able to obtain a supply of pine
>pitch. Can anyone describe its manufacture or suggest a source which might
>be available in Australia.
Your choices would be to find some other sort of resinous tree to render the
pitch from (I'm not sure that using exclusively pine isn't mostly a post-SCA
period, North American convenience), or to order it from someone like
James Townsend and Co. (Who do have a web-site, although I don't have a URL.
I suspect a simple search would pull them up).
As for the rendering and melting processes, that appears to differ with the
different resins. Pine renders tolerably well with heat and water, and melts
with simple heat fairly well. Birch is supposed to be the same (We don't
seem to grow much Birch in Oklahoma). Other resins have different properties.
Dragon's Blood resin, for example, breaks down nicely in oil, while I can't
find any way so far to melt amber (although denatured alcohol appears to
render most of it into a gelatinous mass, while sucking out the color).
Marc/Diarmaid
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:03:24 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Drinking vessels
Found this from Philocothonisa 1635
'Of drinking cups , divers and sundry sorts we have. Some of elme, some of
box, some of Maple, some of Holly, etc. Mazers, broadmouthed dishes,
noggins, whiskins, piggins, crinzes, ale bowles, wassell bowles, court
dishes, tankards, karmes (from a bottle to a pint and gill) Other bottles,
we have of leather (but they most used amoungst the shepards and harvest
people of the country) Small jacks we have in many ale houses of the citie
and suburbs, tipt with silver, besides the great black jacks and bombards
at the court, which when the Frenchmen first saw, they reported at their
return with their(own) country that 'the Englishmen used to drink out of
their bootes.'
I read this that vessels of leather were of 2 distinct types bottles &
Jacks, jacks being used for courts etc, presumably of the upper strata. OK
not medieval but of interest?
Dorothy Hartey sayes of Leather vessels, that the earliest type depended on
their stitching construction, later copper rivets were used and the leather
shrunk and hardened with boiling water and hot wax to form completely rigid
bottles.
no time scale is given, but she mentions a medieval gingerbread studded
with gilt cloves 'nails' & 'rivetted' with round gilt box leaves, copied
leather armour and was considered a correct & knightly gift for a lady.
The Hoggin a barrel shaped leather vessel was the field and shepards
vessel.
Mel
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:42:49 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Leather Pitchers
I was at a University of Atlantia class this weekend. Duke Badouin
MacKenzie was there and he had some really nice leather pitchers he
and someone else had made with molds and hinged frames that closed
around them. Necked top and bottom. Never saw the frame, but he drew
it. Amazing results. Said he had gotten the idea from Williamsburg.
Thought it might be worth sharing.
___________________________
__|_________________________ |
| || | | |
| |inner & outer frame edges| |
|_||________|_______ | |
| | ( ) | | Upper Bolt holes
| space to pull | | |
|----------------|---| | | Form Trimmed
\ //--| | | | and
\ /// | | | | Handle hole cut
| ||| | | | | later.
/ \\| | | | |
/ \\\ | | | | Frames clamped
/\ / \\\| | | |
| Turned form. || | | |
| || |<--|-|--Finished cut handle.
| || / | |
\ // / | |
\_____________//_/ | |
/ \\ ( ) | | Lower bolt holes, each side.
/_______________\\ | |
|space to pull | | |
__|_________________| | |
| || | |
| || | |
|_||________________________| |
|__________________________|< Leather folded over
around turned form inside frame.
|
Hinges
Noted some cord marks around the necked areas to help pull them in.
I believe once the stretching was done they were preliminarily sewn
around the turned form, then the form was later removed and it was
resewn and trimmed. Of course there was a molded leather base inserted.
There were two lines of stitching, 3 - 4 to the inch.
Looked to be about 8 Oz leather. Stretches when wet and pulled.
Bolted only in two places per frame. Pulled in reportedly around the
belly of the vessel which is why the bolts were placed where they
were - to allow slippage at critical areas and pulling at the necked
areas. The frames would have to be spaced to allow for the 2 thicknesses
of the leather between them, so mount your hinges carefully.
As I recall the leather needed to be soaked in rather warm water
for a while before use. One pitcher had been already pitched, the
other hadn't yet. There was no additional leather insert to stiffen
the handle as in some leather blackjacks.
Passed on with all credit to Duke Badouin, who does some amazing work.
Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde.
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:19:48 -0400
From: "Gregory Stapleton" <gregsta at perigee.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Attempts at recreating Medieval Bombards
I've finally had some success with my bombard molding attempts. I've webbed
a several pictures of my efforts at:
http://www.medievallife.com/Pages/bombard.htm.
I'll be providing more pictures and complete text in the near future. I
just wanted to put this up to show some of our fellows who had expressed
interest in my project.
Gawain Kilgore / Gregory Stapleton
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:29:39 -0400
From: "Gregory Stapleton" <gregsta at perigee.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Medieval Bombards - An Explanation
> My question would be: What are Bombards???
>
> KHvS
Bombards (in this instance, as there are at least 4 definitions for the word
that I know of) are Medieval, leather pitchers or jugs. In capacity, they
usually range from about a quart to over 5 gallons! Far superior to
ceramic, as they don't break if you drop them. They also won't kill someone
if you hit them upside the head with it in a tavern brawl. Leather vessels
were in use long before ceramic. Common up into the mid-19th century.
Their smaller cousin, the Jack, is a Medieval leather mug.
Gawain Kilgore / Gregory Stapleton
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:58:47 -0400
From: "Gregory Stapleton" <gregsta at perigee.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Medieval Bombards - An Explanation
> In a message dated 6/16/99 5:36:43 PM, gregsta at perigee.net writes:
> << Far superior to ceramic, as they don't break if you drop them. They
> also won't kill someone if you hit them upside the head with it in a
> tavern brawl. >>
>
> Personal experience??
> Seriously, good info-I knew about Jacks, but didn't know
> Bombards. Sounds like a project. Thanks.
<AHEM....clearing throat> I quote, "The long-lasting quality of leather pots
as opposed to pottery vessels is revealed by the decision in 1512 to replace
earthen pots with leather vessels in the earl of Northumberland's castles of
Wressle and Leconfield (Yorks.).
O. Baker, _Black Jacks and Leather Bottells (c. 1920), 90. ;)
Gawain Kilgore
From: "shane" <zutalors at klink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Leather bottles available
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:53:56 GMT
new product I started making in quantity last month!
based on one of the bottle types found on the wreck of the Mary Rose.
bottle were in use throughout brittain for a extended time range, at least
11th to middle of 17th century.
http://www.granddesignworkshop.com/folioBottle.htm
wholesale inquiries welcome as well, however if your in AnTir Ive already
given rights of exclusivity to a merchant there, sorry :(
YIS Fergal Staundunne
MKA Shane Stainton
<the end>