kvass-msg - 7/4/04
Russian drink made from bread or grains. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: beer-msg, beverages-msg, p-bottles-msg, wine-msg, rice-msg, grains-msg, bread-msg, brewing-msg, fd-Russia-msg.
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From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 29 Nov 1993 16:12:58 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Greetings from Balderik,
I must agree with Solveig, and add that I would be VERY
surprised if Kvass (as described in the recipes I've seen)
was the common drink in Medieval Russia.
I don't have any documentary evidence regarding brewing practices in
Russia during this period, so this is my *opinion*.
The recipes for Kvass that I've seen strike me as being quick and
dirty recipes for a light alcoholic beverage. They rely on sugar
as their chief source of fermentable sugars. I think it's safe to
say that sugar, if available, would have been reserved for other
purposes in medieval Russia. Of course, honey could be substituted.
The bread involved
would provide starch, flavour, and some trace nutrients for the
yeast. The starches would not be fermentable by brewing yeast.
In period, it is conceivable that the fermentation would include
microorganisms capable of breaking down the starches, but in that
case, the flavour of the beverage would be *radically* different
from what we would obtain using brewers yeast. The kvass recipes
I've seen look like nothing so much as attempts to simulate a
rye beer when you don't have the materials (malted rye), equipment,
or time to produce a 'real' beer (no insult intended).
The whole point of beer was that malted grain was a relatively cheap
source of fermentable sugars. The trouble is that you have to 'mash'
it to convert the starch in the grain to fermentable sugars. This
requires a certain amount of equipment, knowledge, time, etc. Soaking
bread in hot water to extract a bit of flavour (as per kvass recipes)
is a poor use of the grain by comparison (especially since you have to
make the grain into bread in the first place). If you can't make beer
from grain, but have rye bread and cheap sugar/honey available, it
may be a viable option.
While I have only seen Finnish recipes for Rye beers, I would not be
surprised if similar Russian recipes exist (anyone got any?).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that without some sort of evidence
otherwise, there are strong reasons to question that Kvass (as described
in modern recipes) was a common drink in medieval Russia.
Cheers, Balderik
From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 29 Nov 1993 22:43:10 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln
cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
>Greetings from Balderik,
>I must agree with Solveig, and add that I would be VERY
>surprised if Kvass (as described in the recipes I've seen)
>was the common drink in Medieval Russia.
The title _Bread and Salt_by Smith and Christian (see complete
reference below) goes into length about the role of Kvas in period.
(quote) "The other common drink of Kievan times was Kvas, a very
lightly fermented, almost non-alchoholic beer. Home-made kvas is made
nowadays from malted rye, barley or wheat and rye, wheat or buckwheat
flour or from pastry, bread, or rusks; sugar, honey, and various
fruits, berries, and herbs are used to flavor it. A twelth-century
manuscript mention 'much drink and Kvas' It is this which seems to be
referred to by Tedaldi, even though the drink he mentioned in 1581
was made with oats: 'water mashed with oatmeal, then cooked, is the
general drink; the oats relieves the badness of the water and makes
the men fat." (p.74) (end quote)
Kvas seems to have been very prevalent within medieval Russia, the
"day-to-day drink of most peasants in Russia" (p. 78)
>I don't have any documentary evidence regarding brewing practices in
>Russia during this period, so this is my *opinion*.
These are solid ideas with a logical basis (some I disagree with, but
hey :-)
>The recipes for Kvass that I've seen strike me as being quick and
>dirty recipes for a light alcoholic beverage. They rely on sugar
>as their chief source of fermentable sugars. I think it's safe to
>say that sugar, if available, would have been reserved for other
>purposes in medieval Russia. Of course, honey could be substituted.
The general impression that I have received is that honey was used for
just that. It seems to have been exceedingly common, given the
numerous references to honey meads.
>The bread involved
>would provide starch, flavour, and some trace nutrients for the
>yeast. The starches would not be fermentable by brewing yeast.
>In period, it is conceivable that the fermentation would include
>microorganisms capable of breaking down the starches, but in that
>case, the flavour of the beverage would be *radically* different
>from what we would obtain using brewers yeast. The kvass recipes
>I've seen look like nothing so much as attempts to simulate a
>rye beer when you don't have the materials (malted rye), equipment,
>or time to produce a 'real' beer (no insult intended).
>The whole point of beer was that malted grain was a relatively cheap
>source of fermentable sugars. The trouble is that you have to 'mash'
>it to convert the starch in the grain to fermentable sugars. This
>requires a certain amount of equipment, knowledge, time, etc. Soaking
>bread in hot water to extract a bit of flavour (as per kvass recipes)
>is a poor use of the grain by comparison (especially since you have to
>make the grain into bread in the first place). If you can't make beer
>from grain, but have rye bread and cheap sugar/honey available, it
>may be a viable option.
I am not much of a brewer, but most of the recipes for kvas that I
have made that tasted any good were ones which started with rye flour
and not rye (or other type) bread.
Beer was also an option, however.
"Beer is mentioned from the eleventh century onwards. . . .Malt for
the tax-collector, or justice, at the rate of seven buckets a week
was specified in part of Russkaya Pravda, the old Russian law, dated
to the 1030's."
I believe that Kvas was made not because beer couldn't be made, but
that it was cheaper and easier to make. It seems to have been more of
a commonly available drink.
>While I have only seen Finnish recipes for Rye beers, I would not be
>surprised if similar Russian recipes exist (anyone got any?).
Which I did!
>I guess what I'm trying to say is that without some sort of evidence
>otherwise, there are strong reasons to question that Kvass (as described
>in modern recipes) was a common drink in medieval Russia.
I am not quite sure which recipes you have, but I think that it was
quite a common drink. The actual recipes we have are not from period
(as near as I can find), but some seem to come a lot closer than
others.
>Cheers, Balderik
Mikhail Nikolaevich
mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 30 Nov 1993 20:22:39 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
First off, thanks to Mikhail Nikolaevich for his
informative reply.
I think I goofed in assuming that the recipes for Kvass
that I'm familiar with are the same ones that everyone
else has seen.
From what I've seen in Complete Anachronist, rec.crafts.homebrewing,
homebrew-digest, and here on the Rialto, I was under the impression
that Kvass was made strictly from bread, not from (malted) grain.
I thought (incorrectly it would appear), that Kvass was distinct
from beer in that it was a light beverage made from bread. It looks
like 'Kvass' is just the Russian word for 'small beer', and includes
a wide range of beers made from different grains and flavoured with
an assortment of ingredients. The bread based recipes would only be
for one type of Kvass (sort of a quick and dirty counterfeit?).
If Kvass is the generic term for such a wide range of small beers,
then I don't doubt that it was the common drink.
So, I suppose my argument would be that granted that Kvass was a
staple drink in Medieval Russia, Kvass made from bread (as per some
of the recipes I've seen) would probably have been less common
than Kvass made from malted grain (rye, oats, etc.).
Mikhail, you mention making kvass from 'rye flour'. Are you sure
it's rye *flour*? How did you make it from the flour? From my
understanding of brewing, this shouldn't work. You would have to
use malted rye, which you would then mash to convert the starch to
fermentable sugar. On the other hand, if it was extract of malted rye
(which could be purchased as a flour-like powder), you would simply
dissolve it in water and proceed.
From what I've heard, in areas where there is a large Finnish population,
one can sometimes find stores that sell rye malt and/or rye malt extract.
(for making sahti and other Finnish rye beers).
Some american mailorder homebrew suppliers offer them as well.
Up this-a way, the homebrew suppliers don't know from malted rye.
While one could make a barley malt based beer and include some unmalted
rye (using the enzymes from the barley to convert the starches in
the rye, as is done in *some* wheat beers and oatmeal stouts), I have
been lead to believe that this won't give the right results as
malted rye is quite different from unmalted rye. Furthermore, you
would have to use at least 50% barley malt to attain complete conversion,
so the flavour profile would be skewed towards the barley beer side of
the spectrum.
Thanks for straightening that out!
Cheers, Balderik
From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 1 Dec 1993 18:06:24 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln
Greetings unto the Rialto and especially unto Balderick!
cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
>Mikhail, you mention making kvass from 'rye flour'. Are you sure
>it's rye *flour*? How did you make it from the flour? From my
>understanding of brewing, this shouldn't work. You would have to
>use malted rye, which you would then mash to convert the starch to
>fermentable sugar. On the other hand, if it was extract of malted rye
>(which could be purchased as a flour-like powder), you would simply
>dissolve it in water and proceed.
Sorry about the unclear wording (I need to proof my posts better!!!!!)
The recipe that I am most fond of (with no date, unfortunately!) is as
follows.
"To make it one puts a pailful of water into an earthen vessel, into
wich one shakes two pounds of barley meal (or rye), half a pound of
salt, and some honey, more or less according to the wealth of the
family. This is placed in the evening in the oven with a moderate
fire and stirred. In the morning, it is left for a time to settle,
the clear liquid is poured of, and it is ready to drink in a few
days."
I think that the important thing to remember about kvas is it's
weakness. The records are much better for mead and vodka than for
kvas, its alchohol content was so low that it's production was seldom
recorded for taxation and the like.
I will have to try the malted barley (or rye). I have till this point
used rye flour, and the product has turned out, at all stages of
production, as described in
all the processes which I have read (not as many as I would like :-)
This is not to say of course, that it is correct.
My applied knowledge of brewing is rather minimal (and quite limited to
kvas). Could you suggest other improvements/variations I might try?
>From what I've heard, in areas where there is a large Finnish population,
>one can sometimes find stores that sell rye malt and/or rye malt extract.
>(for making sahti and other Finnish rye beers).
>Some american mailorder homebrew suppliers offer them as well.
>Up this-a way, the homebrew suppliers don't know from malted rye.
>While one could make a barley malt based beer and include some unmalted
>rye (using the enzymes from the barley to convert the starches in
>the rye, as is done in *some* wheat beers and oatmeal stouts), I have
>been lead to believe that this won't give the right results as
>malted rye is quite different from unmalted rye. Furthermore, you
>would have to use at least 50% barley malt to attain complete conversion,
>so the flavour profile would be skewed towards the barley beer side of
>the spectrum.
>Thanks for straightening that out!
>Cheers, Balderik
In curiousity,
Mikhail
From: fnklshtn at AXP3.ACF.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 2 Dec 93 02:16:12 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
>First off, thanks to Mikhail Nikolaevich for his
>informative reply.
>
>I think I goofed in assuming that the recipes for Kvass
>that I'm familiar with are the same ones that everyone
>else has seen.
>
>From what I've seen in Complete Anachronist, rec.crafts.homebrewing,
>homebrew-digest, and here on the Rialto, I was under the impression
>that Kvass was made strictly from bread, not from (malted) grain.
>
>I thought (incorrectly it would appear), that Kvass was distinct
>from beer in that it was a light beverage made from bread. It looks
>like 'Kvass' is just the Russian word for 'small beer', and includes
>a wide range of beers made from different grains and flavoured with
>an assortment of ingredients. The bread based recipes would only be
>for one type of Kvass (sort of a quick and dirty counterfeit?).
>If Kvass is the generic term for such a wide range of small beers,
>then I don't doubt that it was the common drink.
Hold it, hold it!
Someone's Russian dictionary sucks!
(and it's not mine since I learned by living not by going to classes)
The word for beer is Pivo. This includes beers from all sorts of grains.
Kvas is a non-alcoholic beverage (or, if alcoholic, it has less alcohol than
toothpaste) made from bread.
SCA Kvas tastes nothing like real Kvas.
Why am I speaking so certainly?
Because I lived in the USSR as a small boy. Kvas was what we drank on hot summer
days. We drank big mugs on empty stomachs and never even got tipsy. Further,
contrary to popular belief, alcohol is illegal to sell to children in USSR
while Kvas was sold by government salesmen in government stores to children.
Incidentally, if you wanna try the real thing go to your closest Russian
comunity. I know they make and import it in Brighton Beach (in New York).
I wonder if the SCAdian brewers ever tasted the real Kvas.
I wonder how many of the other things we do are just as unrelated to their
originals.
Nahum
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kvass and Reconstruction in the SCA
Date: 2 Dec 1993 14:53:18 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
fnklshtn at AXP3.ACF.NYU.EDU writes:
|> In article <2dga2f$bjo at bmerha64.bnr.ca>, cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
...stuff deleted...
|> Hold it, hold it!
|> Someone's Russian dictionary sucks!
|> (and it's not mine since I learned by living not by going to classes)
|> The word for beer is Pivo. This includes beers from all sorts of grains.
|> Kvas is a non-alcoholic beverage (or, if alcoholic, it has less alcohol than
|> toothpaste) made from bread.
|> SCA Kvas tastes nothing like real Kvas.
You mean SCA Kvas tastes nothing like real (modern) Kvas. I don't think
we can say very much conclusively about the taste of real medieval kvas.
|> Why am I speaking so certainly?
|> Because I lived in the USSR as a small boy. Kvas was what we drank on hot summer
|> days. We drank big mugs on empty stomachs and never even got tipsy. Further,
|> contrary to popular belief, alcohol is illegal to sell to children in USSR
|> while Kvas was sold by government salesmen in government stores to children.
Perhaps modern kvas is deliberately made non-alcoholic precisely so that it
can be legally sold in this way.
I would not base my definition of a medieval ginger ale on the 'ginger ale'
we find being sold to children today (wow, that may just be a perfect analogue).
|> Incidentally, if you wanna try the real thing go to your closest Russian
|> comunity. I know they make and import it in Brighton Beach (in New York).
But would it be like real medieval kvas? I'm not saying that it wouldn't be,
I'm asking. Mikhail's references would seem to indicate that today's Kvas
may not be the same as the Kvas of days gone by. If you went to Burton-on-Trent
you could probably get some wonderful British Ales. But would they be
representative of medieval British Ales? I would guess not, but never having
tasted a medieval British ale, or even conducted any extensive study of medieval
brewing techniques, I can't say for certain.
|> I wonder if the SCAdian brewers ever tasted the real Kvas.
Next time you crack a bottle of 1050 vintage Kvas, give me a call. I'd be
genuinely delighted to taste it ;).
|> I wonder how many of the other things we do are just as unrelated to their
|> originals.
Which 'originals'? Modern Russian Kvas may be just as far removed from
medieval kvas as SCA kvas (not that I have good things to say about the
SCA kvass recipes I've seen). This is precisely the question we're trying
to answer. What was medieval Kvas like? Can we safely assume that it
resembles modern kvas in anything more than a superficial manner?
Mikhail's references seem to indicate that there were many ways of making
kvass so trying to pin down a narrow definition might be futile.
To answer your question, I would guess that alot of what we do in the SCA
is unrelated to the 'originals', and it's often because we assume that modern
things are interchangeable with their medieval counterparts:
Modern leather is the same as medieval leather
Modern steel is the same as medieval steel
Modern Ale is the same as medieval ale
Modern cloth is the same as medieval cloth
but hey, that horse is little more than a pile of bleached bones at this point,
so I won't molest it any further.
Cheers, Balderik