fresh-juices-msg - 11/17/07
Evidence for fresh fruit juices being used in period for drinking and for cooking.
NOTE: See also the files: beverages-NA-msg, bev-water-msg, cider-msg, infusions-msg, jalabs-msg, Orng-Lmn-drks-art, perry-msg, Period-Fruit-art, Hst-U-o-Aples-art, fruits-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:32:36 -0600
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of fresh juices in period?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Verjuice is unfermented.
"Ouverture de Cuisine" (1604) uses orange juice in four recipes, and
sorrel juice in one recipe. In all five cases the juices are used as
topping sauces, with pepper or melted butter.
Thorvald
At 04:00 -0500 2007-04-22, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Kiri mentioned:
> <<< However, when I
> judged a cooking competition this past weekend at Coronation, I was somewhat
> bemused by an entrant who substituted white wine for the grape juice the
> recipe called for (and yes, even the unredacted translation said "grape
> juice.") Her reasoning was that she didn't have any grape juice in the
> house and didn't want to make a trip to the store!!! >>>
>
> Do you remember what the recipe was and where it originally came
> from?
>
> It has been my contention that yes, fresh fruit juices were drunk in
> the Middle Ages, but because they won't stay fresh without
> refrigeration for very long, that they were fermented or drunk very
> quickly. However, I've not got much evidence to back this viewpoint up.
>
> So this recipe would be of interest to me, IF the translation is
> correct. The recipe might have actually specified a fermented grape
> juice and the translation is wrong or the fermentation might have
> been assumed.
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:08:19 +0200 (CEST)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Use of fresh juices in period?
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>
> It has been my contention that yes, fresh fruit juices were drunk in
> the Middle Ages, but because they won't stay fresh without
> refrigeration for very long, that they were fermented or drunk very
> quickly. However, I've not got much evidence to back this viewpoint up.
> So this recipe would be of interest to me, IF the translation is
> correct. The recipe might have actually specified a fermented grape
> juice and the translation is wrong or the fermentation might have
> been assumed.
We have some evidence for fresh juices in cooking -
lemon in the Liber de Coquina, apple in IIRC the
K?nigsberg MS, and I dimly remember others. Richard
Fletcher also mentions taxes paid by Christian wine
growers to Muslim authorities in the for of
unfermented must, though the purpose is nmot
explained. However, unless we find good evidence for
non-citrus juices being drunk, I am unconvinced for
the simple reason that making fresh juice is a lot of
*work*, compared to cooking out the juice, grinding up
the fruit to a pulp, or just eating it. If you were
going to do it anyway, I could see people drinking
must from the cider, perry or wine presses, but with
the freshness needed I can't envision anyone pressing
fruit fresh so someone can have a litre or two of
drinkable juice. Except as an idiosyncrasy, of course,
if you had the money, why not?
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:29:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of fresh juices in period?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> At 04:00 -0500 2007-04-22, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>> It has been my contention that yes, fresh fruit juices were
>> drunk in the Middle Ages,
One finds earlier mentions.
Many men putte ?erto in somer ?e Iuse of lymons or of orenges. [Many men
put thereto in summer the juice of lemons or of oranges.]
Chauliac 2(Paris angl. 25 156a/b) c1425
Chauliac died in Avignon, on July 25, 1368.
2 (Paris angl. 25 156a/b) is the manuscript designation by the Middle English Dict.
In this case-- Title: Guy de Chauliac's Grande Chirurgie (ME version 2)
[*Chauliac(2)] The preferred text being
Paris, Biblioth?que Nationale angl.25 (Pref.MS)
c1425 is the date which is after his death, so this is a later copy.
There is this book --B. Wallner, The Middle English Translation of Guy
de Chauliac's Grande Chirurgie, Acta Universitatis Lundensis n.f., avd.
1, bd. 56, nr. 5 (1964). odd pp. 3-149.
Johnnae
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:36:05 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of fresh juices in period?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I don't actually have the recipe in front of me, but it was, IIRC, a Roman
cookbook, possibly Apicius or one of the others. It had to be because those
were the parameters of the competition. At the moment I don't have time to
go find it...and Apicius (the new one) is the only one I have, though it
could have been in that book about Roman cooking that had Cato and
some of the others in it.
Kiri
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:07:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Use of fresh juices in period?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> I don't actually have the recipe in front of me, but it was, IIRC, a Roman
> cookbook, possibly Apicius or one of the others. It had to be because those
> were the parameters of the competition. At the moment I don't have time to
> go find it...and Apicius (the new one) is the only one I have, though it
> could have been in that book about Roman cooking that had Cato and some of
> the others in it.
If it was Roman, there's a good chance it was grape
must, probably in one of the cooked-down forms (sapa
or caroenum). You can substitute fresh juice
sometimes, but it's not the same thing.
<the end>