cider-msg - 1/10/08 Apple and other ciders. Cider presses. NOTE: See also the files: cider-art, brewing-msg, fruit-apples-msg, fruits-msg, beverages-msg, mead-msg, perry-msg, wassail-msg, brewing-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: mead from pears? From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 93 07:50:01 EST Summary: Make Perry instead! instructions included. Greetings from Alizaunde- Good gentle, there is no need to divert thy pears into so minor a brew as mead. Fermented pear juice becomes Perry (as fermented peach juice becomes Peachy) and stands, along with the justly legendary ciders, as the foundation of England's non- honey `wines'. (Our grape wines, alas, bear little investigation. Or flavor.) With Queen Mary so involved with her Spanish suitor, these good native drinks are out of the fashion: how- ever, I remember somewhat of their preparation, and my scribe will send it thee. I wish thine undertaking all good profit. A. de B. -And from Honour, some practical tips: Use wine yeast for Perry, not beer yeast (around here often bread yeast) used for mead. Like English fermented cider, Perry is usually brewed slightly `dry'; if the fruit is bruised, it must be brewed dry- get yeast specifically bred for that purpose- as it would otherwise turn bitter. the riper the pears are, short of over-ripe, the sweeter the Perry you can produce. I've made Perry twice. The first batch taught me not to use bread yeast (it was still drinkable, in fact I got compliments, but someone tipped me about using wine yeast next time). I didn't have access to a cider press, so I used a food processer and a jellybag (a cloth strainer.) General con- census: pleasant, but too `yeasty', and oversweet. For the second batch I used commercial canned pear juice, and a few wild grapes for their captive yeasts. Everyone liked it more, most much more, than the first. It had no yeast scent at all, and noone reported a yeast taste. It only had one fault, in fact (aside from being only a month old); the solids I didn't strain out caused really disgusting dregs. I was badly hampered by the fact that I'm physically allergic to alcohol, and thus can't taste stuff to see how it's doing. You'll probably produce far better results, even if you can't get commercial wine yeast to work from, just because you don't have that limitation. Good luck- Honour(please tell me how it worked.) From: meastman Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Warmed or mulled Cider Date: 18 Mar 1994 16:32 CST Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services Keywords: Spiced Cider: Okay, here goes. This is my first post, so bear with me. I have a recipe for a spiced *alcoholic* cider. This drink has been well-received from one side of Ansteorra to another. Here is the recipe: Golden Horn, by Lady Claryce; 1 gallon Apple Cider 2 cups White Rum (regular, *not* 151) 1 cup Apple Schnapps 2 Tablespoons orange peel 1 Tablespoon lemon peel 1 Tablespoon Allspice 1 Tablespoon Cinnamon 1 Tablespoon Honey Let sit in a refrigerator for 36 to 48 hours. (Yes, It takes 2 days to make, but the drink really is worth the time.) Pour drink off from sediment into another container. This drink may be served chilled (excellent for those Ansteorran summers, where you want something cold), or served heated, where it tends to warm you inside out. Enjoy. The only request I have is that if you change the recipe, change the name. I've had some truly horrid renditions of Golden Horn because someone felt their recipe is better. It may be, but *please* don't call it by the same name! ---------------------------------------------------- Lady Claryce Rapheal Orfevre Kingdom Chronicler of Ansteorra From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard (Pear) Cider Date: 7 Oct 1995 04:42:00 GMT Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA > I just aquired about 15lbs of pears, and was wondering...read > hoping... that one of you wonderful people has a recipe for Hard Cider. > I am thinking that an apple recipe could be used for pears, but I could > be wrong. Any information would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Beatrix von Dunsel Turm > Oh Oh! Crush those lovely soft yellow plumpies up with a like amount of apples, preferably tart cidery ones available right about now in most northern lands. Pitch a champagne yeast on the must. Stir it up for maybe five to eight days at room temperatture once a day. Keep it covered to keep out the wee beasties. Rack it through a sterilized (boiling in water) fine cheesecloth. Rack this again after ten days to two weeks directly into champagne or beer bottles. Some pressure will build up over the six to twelve months you leave it carefully alone. Pop one every month just to see how wonderful apple perry is as it ages to subtle, bubbly and fruity deliciousness over the next few months. If you are feeling generous, share your good fortune with your friends. If they like light sparkling wines, they will be further endeared to you. Wassail! Ceallach Ealdormerean Old Phart (who is about to do the above mentioned activities) From: Catherine A Hensley <hensley at lims1.lanl.gov> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard cider Date: 24 Oct 1995 22:09:29 GMT Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU (Steven Rettig) wrote: > > Is hard cider period? I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand > name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD! If so, is there a brewer's recipe? > > Steven "Bear" Rettig Absolutely. Even if it weren't documentable (it is), common sense would insist that it is period. If you make cider and don't drink it within, say, two weeks, it starts going hard. This is often true even with modern mundane refrigeration (although not with sterile bottling techniques). Early apple-pressing methods involved crushing the apples in a trough with a trough-wide stone or wood wheel that rolled the length of the trough (if linear) or around the trough (if circular). I found one mention of a horse-mill, that is, a horse was hitched to the axle that went though the mill stone, and then walked around the circular mill, rolling the wheel over the apples as it went. Then the pommace (crushed apples) was shoveled into cheeses (cloth bags) and loaded onto the pressing area. Boards were placed on top, and then stones on top of the boards to apply pressure. The juice drained into a channel and then into containers. By the Elizabethan era, screw presses were in use (like hobby presses today). To make your own hard cider, the easy way <g>, buy a gallon jug of pasturized cider at the store (NO preservatives, please). Now comes a choice: add a few grains of bread yeast (NOT a whole envelope), OR drink a bottle of bottle-fermented beer (I believe Guiness works) and add the dreggs to your cider. The bread yeast leaves the hard cider with a slightly bready flavor (my dad used this method when I was a kid [something he learned in the army, I suspect]). The beer method gives a distinctly different flavor. You might also try a slosh from a bottle of commercial hard cider--it may well still have some yeast in it. Now, DO NOT SEAL the bottle again. My dad used to put a children's balloon over the open neck of the jug to keep contaminants out and allow the fermentation's CO2 to escape. The balloon would inflate a bit, and then the gas would escape bit by bit. I'm more scientific about it <g> with a fermentation lock, but the balloon idea is easy and cheap. Watch your cider for bubbles, which indicate that fermentation is under way. With only a few grains of bread yeast, the fermentation should never really get out of hand; if you were impatient and added a lot of yeast, expect vigorous, frothing fermentation that will try to escape the jug. If this happens, transfer your cider to a big soup pot (cover with a lid, or with a plate) for a couple of days. A week or two after fermentation begins, start drinking. It will be sweet, carbonated, and slightly alcoholic the first week, and more tart, carbonated, and alcoholic as time goes on. Expect your home brew to be cloudy and taste a bit yeasty. If you want a clear brew in capped bottles, pick up a book on beer brewing and read up about fining and bottling. Hope this helps. Aithne, Anlieplic Dun, Outlands From: eoh at raster.kodak.com (Esther Heller) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard cider Date: 25 Oct 1995 21:19:51 GMT Organization: Eastman Kodak In article <46jj02$ebm at news.tamu.edu>, robertsk at tamu.edu writes: >In article <v01510102acb2dac44432 at [128.146.203.222]> rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU (Steven Rettig) writes: >> >> Is hard cider period? I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand >>name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD! If so, is there a brewer's recipe? >> >> Steven "Bear" Rettig > Ooooh... Bottled hard cider? Where did you find it, and what was the name >of the brand? We've been making our own, but it never turns out even close to >the same, sometimes it will carbonate and sometimes it won't. We started out >with plain old gallon jugs of TreeTop Apple Juice, a little brewers yeast, and >an airlock (we used vodka in the airlock instead of the little tablets you >crush up in case it backwashed). I'm not sure if it is period or not. We've >also made a batch of strawberry cider, unfortunately, it was an experiment, and >only 16oz got made. There were 4 ladies fighting over what was left in the >bottle. > >Fionna While I don't tolerate serious alcohol (1/2 glass wine or equivalent = wierd headache in 5-10 min.) I do like "cider" (in the US generally just apple juice) that has been left at room temperature about 3 days. It gets a bit fizzy and has a little bite but it takes several glasses for the alcohol content to bother me. The problem in the last 10 years is that even when you buy from farm markets that make it on site, it has been dosed with some fraction of a percent of sodium benzoate so it won't "spoil" (actually ferment). I have to ask questions and am now down to 1 or 2 places in a major retail apple growing area to get juice that will ferment anymore. Mayhap this is your problem? I have not had trouble getting undosed fresh not pasturized juice in a tightly closed plastic milk jug to ferment all by itself in 3-5 days at room temp. When the jug starts to look slightly inflated it is time to refrigerate and drink. Esther Heller eoh at raster.kodak.com From: ALBAN at delphi.COM Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: cider, distillation Date: 27 Oct 1995 00:27:38 -0400 Arval asks, regarding cider and common sense: >Are there period recipes for hard cider? the following comes from the Larousse Gastronomique (London; Hamlyn Publishing Group 1988), which, although i don't have its bibilography handy, is a source i consider reasonably reliable: Calvados: "Brandy made by distilling cider. Cider distillation is a very old tradition in Normandy - it was mentioned in 1553 in the diary of Gilles de Gouberville, a gentleman of the Cotentin. The best Calvados is made with cider that is over a year old...It is not, however, the same as the American spirit, applejack...." Cider: "...In France regulations were introduced under Charlemagne, and in the 12th century cider-making established in Normandy and Britanny, where the climate is very favourable for growing apples...Great Britain also produces and consumes a great range of ciders, generally pale in colour with a higher alcohol content than in France, where processes sch as sweetening and reconstitution with apple concentrate are prohibited...." Perry: "A fermented drink made like cider but with pear instead of apple juice. It has been made since ancient times in western France: Normandy, Britanny, and Maine. Sparkling perry is an inexpensive alcoholic drink in the UK. "The French word (poire') should not be confused with the pear alcool blanc, referred to in full as Poire William." yeah, i know there are no recipes listed above, but, hell, good cider requires apple juice and yeast. how much more of a recipe does one need? <grin> on the legality of distillation by private individuals, in the united states: it isn't. i looked into this a couple of years ago, specifically asking my lawyer if it were legal for me to distill for educational purposes (i put it that way: i wanted to know if i could get away with distilling small batches (a gallon or two at a time) using period techniques and period recipes, and writing the whole thing up, for this historical educational group i belonged to). he checked with his ATF contact in st. louis, and the answer came back. lo and behold, distillation by private individuals is illegal. period. you gotta get federal licenses, and state licenses, and periodic inspections, and so forth, and so on, if you distill *anything* alcoholic. brewing, however, is just fine. alban, <hic> From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard cider Date: 27 Oct 1995 21:25:19 GMT Organization: Cornell University In article <v01510102acb2dac44432 at [128.146.203.222]>, rettig.4 at postbox.acs.ohio-state.EDU says... > > Is hard cider period? I had some of the bottled stuff(the brand >name escapes me...), and it was GOOOD! If so, is there a brewer's recipe? This is the "most period possible" recipe for hard cider: Get some unsulfured, unfiltered cider. Let it sit in your basement for a while. Let the gas escape from the containers once in a while so you don't get a KABOOM! and a big mess. Sample with trepidation. If you're lucky, you'll get ambrosia. If you're not lucky, but not unlucky, you'll get vinegar. If you're unlucky, you'll get food poisoning. I don't make hard cider like this, myself. Here is a "much less period, but far more controlled" recipe for hard cider. You will need: Cider, 5 or 5.5 gallons. Get sulfured, unfiltered cider or unsulfured, unfiltered cider. 1 Primary Fermenter with Air Lock 55 or so 12-oz brown long-neck beer bottles, clean and sterile. 55 bottle caps, also clean and sterile Bottle Capper Racking Tube Carboy or Lauter Tub Instructions: Prime some non-attenuating ale yeast with a half cup of cider in a sterile glass container until bubbles start to appear. Pour all cider into your sterile fermenter. If cider is unsulfured, add a campden tablet or two. Pitch (pour) primed yeast into fermenter and seal. Put fermenter in appropriate environment for ale yeast (dark, around 50 degrees F) with an airlock on top, of course. Monitor daily. When fermentation has stopped "rocking", rack into a carboy or into your lauter tub (if you don't own a carboy). If you don't own a carboy, quickly wash and sterilize your fermenter, then rack "green" cider back into fermenter. Allow to settle in the dark and cool (conditions as for fermenting) for a couple days. If you want a "still cider", bottl and age a few months in a dry, cool basement. If you want a "sparkling cider", I prefer to "bottle kraeusen". If you want to bottle kraeusen, rack your cider into a sterile container (fermenter or lauter tub), take that extra half-gallon of cider and prime with a bit of fresh yeast. Add this to the fermented cider and bottle. Age as above. If you want a dry cider, use an attenuating yeast. I'm a sweet-tooth, myself. From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mulled cider recipe needed Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 11:58:09 -0400 Organization: Cornell University In article <4hnsjo$6j9 at news-e2b.gnn.com>, magary at gnn.com (Al Magary) wrote: Historically Accurate Mulled Cider: Take a great honking pot of cider. Add whatever spices you could afford. Heat to JUST ABOVE body temperature and hold there for about 15 minutes (no longer, as the spice's essential oils would then evaporate and be gone). Do not boil, do not head to scalding temperatures. It should be just above normal body temperature, so as to infuse the essences and aromas into the drinker's sensory array without burning the mouth. Far too many people overheat their mulled cider, thus ruining it. The only time that truly "hot" cider is good is when you're still outside and still freezing. Once you're in a warm room, you don't want it to be actually "hot", but at just above body temperature. You don't need a thermometer to measure this, by the way--you've got a finger and you've got a mouth. Sip a little from a spoon WITHOUT waiting for it to cool. If it scalds you, it's too hot. From: psobaka at mail.myriad.net (harry billings) To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:56:19 -0500 Subject: Re: apple presses >Pug said: >>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders >>instead of having to buy it. > >Are you going to be making or buying this press? > >I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the >apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at >all that what I got out was way too diluted. > >Stefan li Rous If you are going to press apples for juice you have to pulp them first or you will just break your press and/or not get much juice from them. Plachoya Sobaka a most insignificant archer in Ravens Fort From: phillip at gryffon.sps.mot.com (Phillip Abbot) To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com Organization: Motorola DSP, Austin TX Date: 17 Oct 1996 14:09:15 GMT Subject: Re: apple presses In article <n1366620185.63 at riscgate.sps.mot.com> bryn-gwlad at eden.com writes: >Pug said: >>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders >I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the >apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at >all that what I got out was way too diluted. Not so much cider I used to make, more an apple wine. Problem with apples is they are HARD and like to hang on to theitr juice - as you found. try freezing them before squeezing them - the freezing (especially if done fairly S*L*O*W*L*Y makes ice crystals which rupture the cell membranes - on defrosting, the juice almost runs out on its own. I cannot swear that this has no effect on flavour, though. Phillip From: "Matthew R. Popalisky" <mpopali at comp.uark.edu> To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:24:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: apple presses On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, harry billings wrote: > You could also try a meat grinder or some thing of that sort. Oh yes. The meat grinder would do admirably. Fond, fond memories of making Mom's cranberry relish with the meat grinder... I would not reccomend the food processor myself. It tends to dejuice as it goes. The grinder would be a bit less messy, as I remember. SIGH, Kateryn From: Richard Bainter <pug at interval.net> To: ansteorra at eden.com, bryn-gwlad at eden.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:25:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: apple presses > >>Hopefully this time next year I'll have a press to make my own ciders > >>instead of having to buy it. > >Are you going to be making or buying this press? I have plans to make one, but I have a friend who is *hopefully* making me one since he has done it in the past and has all the materials to make it sturdy and reinforced. >>I can remember trying to use a blender to get the juice out of the >>apples. I ended up having to add so much water to make this work at >>all that what I got out was way too diluted. >> >>I have considered a press in the past, but decided just to buy the >>juice since I wouldn't use the press that much. Well I certainly do not plan on buying a press. They currently run about $200 for a ~4 gallon press. This isn't the amount of spare money I have right now. (Although I do have spare time, and if I made it I wouldn't be able to use it this season anyway.) My brewing rate is up quite a bit, so I've started the process of accuring a press somehow. (I've got 25 gallons of cider based stuff brewing right now. Raspberry Cider, Strawberry Cider, Yule Cider, Cyser and a plain old hard cider.) >>The one disadvantage I can see to buying the fresh fruit and >>juicing it is that you are buying prime, top of the line fruit for >>this. As well, I am able to pick and blend the type of apples for specific flavors. This is my main objective for pressing my own. >>It was my impression that both today and in period the >>bruised or otherwise less than prime fruit ended up in juice unless >>there was a surplus that you couldn't use any other way. That's still how it's done for most juices. Sell the good stuff as apples, make the questionable looking, but still good apples into juice. >>But perhaps the extra expense is not that much for what you are >>getting in the way of no prservatives and natural yeasts. I am hoping it will be worth it in just better taste. (Things sitting around my house too long will start fermenting on the yeasts floating around in the air from the amount of brewing of late.) > I have two sets of plans for a press. One small and one large. I have > never constructed them. I would be very interested in the plans you have. I have plans from other cider makers on the net, as well as a reference to one the Canadian Agriculture department(?) published. (Agriculture Canada leaflet A73-1046 (ISBN 0-662-001551-6) - called 'Home Preparation of Juices, Wines and Cider'.) > The large handles " two boxes of apples at a time to > produce 2 to 10 gallons of juice", or so the write-up says. Thes are not > period, but appear to be functional. At this point I want functional. Getting to fresh juice instead of store bought is a step in the right direction. (Gotta do all this period stuff in baby steps. *grin*) After getting the functionality of a press down, I can investigate period presses. -- Phelim Uhtred Gervas | "I want to be called. COTTONTIPS. There is something Barony of Bryn Gwlad | graceful about that lady. A young woman bursting with House Flaming Dog | vigor. She blinked at the sudden light. She writes pug at pug.net | beautiful poems. When ever shall we meet again?" From: hughn at ssd.fsi.com (Hugh Niewoehner) To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 09:41:42 CDT Subject: RE: Cider presses Phelim, Oregon Specialty Products sells a fruit/cheese press for about $60 IIRC. They are a wine making wholesaler based out of Portland, OR. The press is made to easy to clean and use. It suspends over a large bucket/trashcan/whatever. I have the data at home with my vinting business files. To do business with them you'll need a state tax number. Their prices are pretty good and response is great. Generally, if I place an order before 10 a.m. they ship it the the same day. Bug me at: Borrendohl at juno.com or wait until monday and I'll try to remember to send it to from here. Regards, Damon From: hughn at ssd.fsi.com (Hugh Niewoehner) To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 13:52:08 CDT Subject: RE: Cider Press Rhiain, Here's the data for the presses. Oregon Specialty Co., Inc. 7024 NE Glisan St. Portland Oregon 97213-5599 PH: 503/254-7494 Fax: 530/251-2936 They are winemaking supply house dealing _wholesale_only_. They will require a state tax number to show that you are a valid retailer prior to selling to you. They can also refer you to their nearest retailer who can order it for you. My price list dated for August give the wholesale price as $57.50. Internal capacity 1.8 gallons. Shipping weight is 11 pounds. Pressing bags are 2.10 each. Usable with all fruit including apples as a juice/cider press or as a cheese press. Later, Damon From: Brian Shafer <shafer at kingsnet.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wassail recipe Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:34:50 -0800 Rebecca Cairns wrote: > On Tue Nov 26 1996, Holly Allan wrote: > > >I've been following this thread for a bit and I'd love to try some > >of the recipies that have been posted. I do however have one question, > >and please excuse me if the answer is obvious; but could you please tell > >me what "Cyser" is? > > Also following this thread ... I believe the ingredient in question is "cider". > (Reasoning: 1. cider is a common main ingredient in the recipes given so far. > 2. "s" is next to "d" on most keyboards, substituting would give "cyder"; easy > typo - even if it was made twice. 3. phonetically, "cyder" and "cider" are > the same and Webster's Dictionary gives "cyder" as a British variation for > "cider"). Marc/Alexander: did you mean "cyder/cider"? > > Isabella. > <%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%> > Lady Isabella Oakwood, Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere, Midrealm > Azure, an oak leaf and on a chief argent three acorns azure > Rebecca Cairns, Kanata, Ontario, Canada, ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca > <%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%><%> Cyser is cider but it has extra adder sugar (usally honey) to produce a higher alcohol content. Apple juice fermented by itself is cider just as honey and water (plus a few brewing chemicals) is mead. When you add fruits or spices it is technically something else. Mead with fruit is called melomel and mead with spices is called metheglin. Also on the same note grape wine made with honey is called pyment and pyment made with herbs is called hippocras. Confusing isn't it? If yoou really are interested in making mead and cider and such here are a few books I suggest. Making Mead (Honey Wine) by Roger A. Morse published by wicwas press, Making Mead by Bryan Acton and Peter Duncan published by G.W. Kent, Inc. and Swet and Hard Cider Making it, using it, and enjoying it by Annie Proulx and Lew Nichols published by Garden Way Publishing. Enjoy! Brian Shafer Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:17:18 EDT From: Kallyr at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - cider apples Golden Russet is a period cider apple which is still grown and highly regarded. Another is Ashmead's Kernel (also russeted) which was introduced in the 1700's as a cider apple. (Russets are brownish gold rough spots on the skin of apples.) Various modern pippins are descendants of pippins highly regarded as cider apples, such as the Ribston Pippin (also know as Essex Pippin, Glory of York) considered to have originated in Yorkshire, England around 1700. Information from Fruit, Nut and Berry Inventory, Second Edition by Kent Whealy (Decorah, Iowa: Seed Saver Publications, 1993). ~~Minna Gantz/ Sherry <KALLYR at AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:50:30 -0700 From: Eylat Poliner <allotta at earthlink.net> Subject: SC - Re: hist-brewing: Apple cider Philippa Alderton wrote: > I have just gotten access to an unlimited supply of unpasteurized, no > preservative added, apple cider. > > Any suggestions? Do you know what apples these were from?? The best apple cider is a blend of sweet, tart and sour apples. Try red or gold delicious for 30% or must and granny smith for 30% while the rest is more bittersweet apples. You can add sugar to sweeten and/or boost alcohol (apple wine?) Acid titration should be 0.8%. Adjust with MALIC acid. A good wine yeast will give a good cider. Also, an English Ale yeast will produce an English style SCRUMPY. If you only have dessert apples (sweet) they will not produce a good cider, you need more acidic apples to give complexity. Sweet apples will add bouquet and flavor. Sulfite 50ppm to kill wild yeasts. After fermentation, you can bottle condition for a bubbly or have a still cider. Pectic enzyme can help clear the pectic haze if you want a brillant, clear cider. Good luck and send me a sample. Mark Poliner [sent by "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>] From: Crystal Isaac <xtal at sigenetics.com> To: sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu <sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 3:22 PM Subject: [SCA-AE] RE: [ae-mod] Cider (Was Period drinks) oooo, thanks for the link, Katja. I skimmed the cider section of the beverages on Stephen's Florilegium. Most of it is very good but there are a few things that made by brain go POP! A few warnings not addressed in the articles I read: 1) Sulfites (camden tablets) are a common addition to modern brews, intended to kill any wild yeast or other nasty little buggers in the Unpasteurized juice or honey. However, some people are allergic to sulfites, and reactions range from headaches to anaphylactic shock (fall-over-dead). If you use sulfites, make a note of it on the label and tell people who ask "what's in this?". 2) A another suggestion presented was to place a balloon (or a latex exam glove) over the top of the fermentation vessel, this will keep things from getting in and give the CO2 gas a place to go. It's an excellent idea, but many people are allergic to latex and the powder on latex products, again reaction vary from skin rashes to anaphylactic shock (fall-over-dead). It would be a far better practice to buy a real fermentation lock. They are quite cheap and easy to use. 3) Unpasteurized juice can contain the bad type of ecoli (somebody addressed this already on ae-mod), so either buy pasteurized juice or make sure it's clean. If you doubt how important this is, do a web search on ecoli or consider Odwalla and Jack-in-the-Box had their pants sued off because of ecoli. Check out any number of good books on cider for ways to clean juice, the most commonly referred to is: Proulx, Annie and Nichols, Lew. _Sweet and Hard Cider: Making It, Using It & Enjoying It_. A Garden Way of Publishing Book 1988 by Storey Communications Inc., Pownal, VT 05261. ISBN 0-88266-352-6. (Excellent text on apple trees and making juice from your own apples. Good section on distilling and the potential legal problems of distilling.) 4) Somebody was recommending using plastic milk jugs. I would beg and plead with anybody who wants to brew to buy cider in glass jugs and use those instead. I've been brewing too long to believe you can really get a milk jug clean enough (on the other hand, some people in my brewing guild make fun of me for being too paranoid about cleanliness). Another minor point: Allspice is not period, neither is vanilla. Ok, vanilla could be period if you are very late period and Spanish, but it was so shockingly expensive not even kings were using it as a food, it was a medicinal. I wish vanilla was period <sigh>. Crystal of the Westermark Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:22:03 -0500 From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider CBlackwill at aol.com wrote: > Does > anyone have any information of which particular family of apples would be > most appropriate for a "period style" cider? Well, one of my cider books says "In England, the most esteemed cider apple in the seventeenth century was the Red Streak, which gave 'the richest and most vinous liquor.' Other favorites were the Bromesbury Crab, the Red & White Must apples, the Harvey, the Pearmain, the Foxwhelp, and the Gennet-Moyle." _Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider_ by Annie Proulx & Lew Nichols; 2nd ed. p 92. (the first edition is slightly better than the 2nd) If you can get your hands on them, Kingston Black is a good one-apple cider apple, but otherwise I suggest you use a blend of apple types. Definitely throw in a few crab apples for tannins if what you have available is mostly dessert apples. Red Delicious makes a good blending base, with lots of aromatics, but requires plenty of more flavorful varieties to give the cider character. I'm told that Golden Russet is an excellent cider apple, both sweet and tart with a nice aroma. The Roxbury Russet was developed in Massachusetts in 1649, and is listed as a superior cider apple. Winesaps are good blended with dessert apples such as the delicious. I have lots more info on apple varieties if you are interested, but sadly not much on which ones were developed when. - -Magdalena Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:46:28 -0700 From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider >Granny Smith is a good all purpose variety for juice that is not cloyingly >sweet t as is Macintosh (my favorite). But when fermented, all that sweetness is converted to alcohol, so the resulting cider will not be sweet at all. The main thing Macs will contribute is perfume. Cheers, Colin Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:44:09 -0700 From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider Cider is certainly period and easy to make, and (unlike, say, beer or wine) the "period style" was probably not greatly different than modern style. You press the juice and ferment it. No boiling, sterilization, etc. If you have a wild yeast culture (for example, on your pressing equipment), you don't even have to pitch yeast, but that's unlikely to be true for you; an ale yeast should work fine. As far as apple varieties go, this has been discussed before on this list and is therefore somewhere in the Florilegium. Very few cultivars can be reliably dated even to the 16th century, much less to the Middle Ages, and of those only Lady (possibly 16th c.) is grown commercially in small quantities. Furthermore, there is little or no evidence that any varieties were cultivated specifically for cider production in the MA. Therefore, it will be next to impossible to re-create a period cider from period apples, without growing your own. Grannies will certainly make a tart cider - in fact, the acid will be so high that it will probably take months to mellow to a good drinkable product (you will be hoping for a malo-lactic fermentation in the bottle). Mix in some Winesaps or Northern Spies, if you can get them, to add character. There are several books available on cidermaking - let me know if you're interested in a bibliography. There is also a Cider Digest list with lots of great discussions. Two good Web pages are: http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/GraftonG/cider/homepage.htm - the Real Cider and Perry page http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/Content2.HTM - great page by an English cider maker. Bottom line, though, is that there is precious little information out there on pre-17th century apple cultivation (although there is a certain amount of MIS-information). If you live in an area where "wild" apple trees grow, or where crabapples are still grown, try making cider from them - it will be closer than anything else you can get to what was generally available in Northern Europe through the 13th century. Good luck, Colin Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:55:35 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider Stefan, I just tapped my new fall cider, and while dry, it is getting very nice. I bottled it three or four weeks ago. Your first problem was method. Definitely use a Food processor/food mill to crush the apples. The blender is just the wrong tool. If you have to use a blender, Grate the apples first. Take the pulp and put into a straining bag or cheese cloth and press or wring out the cider. Both times you had contamination from wild microbes. the first time was contamination by wild mold, the second by acetobacter, or wild vinegar "mother". Definitely sterilize all equipment with a liberal washing of a good sterilent. I have found that I get good results from CBrite, which you can get on line, or from a local brew store. It is not sulfated and dries without undo rinsing. Definitely use fermentation locks on all ferment vessels. Some people say you can use a sheet of plastic over the pail with a rubber band, but this is only marginally effective. I have never had luck with it. I would also suggest that you try pasteurizing your apples by heating it to 150 degrees and holding it for a half hour. Don't boil it, unless you are doing something special, like adding spices. Let it cool in a sink full of Ice water till it is less than 110 degrees before adding yeast, though. You'll need to maintain this kind of microbial control until you have replaced the local environmental wild yeasts with those which are desireable. You can add a natural apple juice concentrate at this time to "Boost the cider" if you like. I find that these are cheap at the local supermarket. as long as no preservative compounds are added to the concentrate this is perfectly fine. If you are sulfate tolerant, a few campden tablets at the start are good for controlling process contamination, but you'll want a yeast that is tolerant of sulfates, such as Pasteur Champagne ( which makes a VERY dry cider ). I'd suggest not using sulfates if you use an ale or lager yeast, as they will skunk the cider. Since you are kinnling the wild good microbes along with the wild bad microbes, you'll need to add a yeast culture. Two recomendations: pick a good yeast, and makes sure that you started it well before you get to work on the apples. I get a quart jug of pastureized apple juice (no preservatives), and fit it with a fermentation lock, and put the yeast there at least a week beforehand. A vigorous yeast is your best friend, it becomes the "big bully on the block" and rapidly out competes other michrobes for the sugars in the Cider. This helps to eliminate molds and wild yeasts. Just some hints. Brandu Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:02:32 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints. Oh and don't bottle it for at least six months, to allow all fermentation to finish. The Cider will have two ferments. one in six montsh along, this is the "Malolactic Fermentation" this converts two parts very tart malic acid to one part milder lactic acid, and makes the cider mush sweeter. bottling it too soon will prevent this. If you do pasteurize it yourself or use pasteurised cider, youll need to innoculate the cider with the malolactic bacterium culture. This is wild in apples, but is killed by pastuerization, along with vinegar and other less desireable microbes You can also get this culture at the brew store along with the yeast, though you may need to ask for it specifically. brandu Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:51:48 -0700 From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints. "brandu" offered many good tips for the novice cider-maker. Follow his advice and you should have better luck. The most important advice is to make sure that everything that touches the cider is sterile, and the second most important is to exclude air from the cider once fermentation starts. At the risk of confusing things a little, I will offer some alternative approaches: First, about sterilizing or sulfiting to kill off the "bad" wild yeasts and bacteria: This has been the subject of much controversy among cider makers. The advantage is that the outcome is much more predictable; nothing will happen until you pitch yeast, and then you will get only the results from the yeast variety that you selected. If you have had previous bad experience, this may be a good way to restore confidence. OTOH, if you use sterile containers and good-quality juice (don't press any rotten apples), I think sterilizing the juice is not necessary. It certainly isn't period. Pasteurized apple juice does not taste the same - it loses the "fresh" apple taste - and the fermented cider will not taste the same either. Pasteurizing pear juice is really a bad idea (speaking from experience) because, in addition to the taste effect, it will cause a thick brown haze in the fermented product that cannot be cleared. The important thing is to have a really active yeast "starter" to pitch into your cider. Make this by mixing yeast with some warm water, then add that to a pint or so of cider. Cover it (but don't cap it!!) and leave somewhere warm (75 to 90 degrees works well) for a few hours. It will begin to foam up as the yeast gets going. Then pitch this into your cider. The yeast will take over and you won't have to worry about mold or wild yeasts. (I have actually done this with a cider where mold began growing on the surface - just skimmed off the colonies, pitched yeast, and voila! No more mold growth.) The period way to do this is to make cider with the same equipment for several years. A natural yeast culture will build up on the press, etc., and inoculate the juice as it is pressed; fermentation will take off with a day or two, before anything else really has a chance. You still have the chance of vinegar bacterial contamination, and a few other nasty bacterial effects, which were probably very common in period ciders. Second, how do you know when to bottle? Again, this is a complex topic that is repeatedly discussed among cider makers. The simplest approach is to allow the yeast to ferment all the sugar, i.e. until the cider is completely "dry" without any residual sweetness. The modern way to confirm this is with a hydrometer; dry cider has a specific gravity very close to that of water, 1.00. Another way is to ferment in a clear glass container; when the sugar is gone, the yeast goes dormant and falls to the bottom, "clearing" the cider. This is very dramatic! Alternatively, with experience you could probably go by taste; this is the most likely period method. If you do this, then as brandu points out you will need to wait several months after bottling and hope for a good malo-lactic fermentation. This will make the cider fizzy, and will reduce the "sharpness" of the young cider, making it much more pleasant to drink. It's probably not period, however, as bottling methods weren't available until the late 17th century, and trying for a malo-lactic fermentation in medieval containers sounds like a great recipe for vinegar. Medieval cider was almost undoubtedly "still," that is, not effervescent. The alternative approaches are to stop fermentation by killing the yeast, or to use the procedure known as "degorgement" from the champagne process. I have not done this yet, so cannot recommend it. It's also clearly not period. Hope this helps, Colin Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:45:04 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider more hints. > First, about sterilizing or sulfiting to kill off the "bad" wild yeasts and > bacteria: This has been the subject of much controversy among cider > makers. The advantage is that the outcome is much more predictable; > nothing will happen until you pitch yeast, and then you will get only the > results from the yeast variety that you selected. If you have had previous > bad experience, this may be a good way to restore confidence. Which is why I suggested it. When I used these techniques, I did not have "bad luck" When I did not, I occasionally got "stygian tomb dust in a bottle" YMMV. > OTOH, if you use sterile containers and good-quality juice (don't press any > rotten apples), I think sterilizing the juice is not necessary. It > certainly isn't period. Pasteurized apple juice does not taste the same - > it loses the "fresh" apple taste - and the fermented cider will not taste > the same either. Pasteurizing pear juice is really a bad idea (speaking > from experience) because, in addition to the taste effect, it will cause a > thick brown haze in the fermented product that cannot be cleared. I agree. I have not tried perry, but pasteurized juice lacks a little sharpness. OTOH, pasteurized juice is more dependable for the novice (I consider myself still a novice BTW), which, again, is why I suggested it. A note to home pressers of apples, an occaisional spoonful of lemon juice in the crusher will help eliminate the "brown goo" effect ( though it does affect the final taste - don't use very much) > The important thing is to have a really active yeast "starter" to pitch > into your cider. <snip> (I have actually done this with a cider where mold began > growing on the surface - just skimmed off the colonies, pitched yeast, and > voila! No more mold growth.) Wow... I'm impressed at your fortitude! Never had the guts to try this, myself!! What made you do it? > Another way is to ferment in a clear glass container; > when the sugar is gone, the yeast goes dormant and falls to the bottom, > "clearing" the cider. I was advised to wait until the Fermentation lock stops bubbling and then add two months (I think listeneing to a cellar closet full of bubbling carboys beats watching a balloon blow up any day, btw ;-) ) The purpose of this is to encourage the cider to go still, and start the Malolactic ferment, which it does not like to do in increased pressures. My cider is still. after about 3 months I rack it off the lees ( and there will be a lot of them!! ) as it is very clear by then, into another carboy, and wait. ( I start in a 6 1/2 Gallon carboy, and rack it over to a 5 gal carboy. About 3/4 gallon of lees is at the botton, as opposed to other methods which have only a quart or so, Since the apple solids which make pressed cider cloudy fall to the bottom. The final 1/2 to 3/4 gal of clear cider is put into the fridge for cooking, and the occasional curious sip. (though I am thinking of getting a vinegar barrel... ) After a while the lock starts bubbling just a little, and that means the M_L has started. when that is over, I bottle. > and trying for a malo-lactic fermentation in medieval containers sounds > like a great recipe for vinegar. Malolactic in a glass carboy is perfectly fine, and if the cider is bottled after the M_L ferment, it is drinkable within a week. Keep the carboys locked, and use a clean sterile carboy when you rack it, and there is no problem. I do not know about Barrels for the purpose, but as soon as I can afford a few, I will be experimenting with the methods. brandu Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:43:55 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com> Subject: SC - Re SC APPLES FOR CIDER I go back to Colin's original post of 05 Apr 2000: >>>>Cider is certainly period and easy to make, and (unlike, say, beer or wine) the "period style" was probably not greatly different than modern style. You press the juice and ferment it. No boiling, sterilization, etc. <<<< <snip> >>>>As far as apple varieties go, this has been discussed before on this list and is therefore somewhere in the Florilegium. Very few cultivars can be reliably dated even to the 16th century, much less to the Middle Ages, and of those only Lady (possibly 16th c.) is grown commercially in small quantities. Furthermore, there is little or no evidence that any varieties were cultivated specifically for cider production in the MA. Therefore, it will be next to impossible to re-create a period cider from period apples, without growing your own.<<<< I was looking in a book I recently acquired, THE OXFORD BOOK OF FOOD PLANTS, Harrison, Masesfield & Wallis, 1969, which has some very nice plates. The apple section had a separate listing for "Cider Apples and Perry Pears" which states "...high tannin content [apples] have been grown for cider and perry for at least 2,500 years. In England cider apples were probably grown in Saxon times but perry pears may not have been introduced until the Norman Conquest, Normandy then as now being a great perry area." Specifically, the author classifies three distinct catagories of English ciders: "sweet", "bittersweet" and "sharp". Examples are "Sweet Coppin" (Devonshire apple), "Tremlitt's Bitter" (Devonshire apple), and "Kingston Black" (Somerset, Glouster and Hereford apple). Most ciders (he states) were blended from several varieties to get a proper balance. "Kingston Black" however was recommended for a single cider. "Most cider apples and perry pears have no recorded history", the author states, but older name will have "simple names of a farm or village or their raiser". For perry pears, he mentions "Thorn Pear" (known in 1676) and "Red Pear" (Herefordshire and Worchestershire) "known since Tudor times". Perhaps of value in research would be a book he mentions, POMONA HEREFORDENSIS by Thomas Andrew Knight, 1811. in which many almost forgotten cider and perry varieties are identified. Perhaps some of our antiquarian bibliofiles could scrounge up this pome tome??? The heart of cider making in England seems to be in the Devonshire/ Herefordshire area and perry making in France (Normandy). Can some of our European list members check out regional sources in these areas as any period evidence may be most likely to dwell in those locations? >>>>Bottom line, though, is that there is precious little information out there on pre-17th century apple cultivation (although there is a certain amount of MIS-information). If you live in an area where "wild" apple trees grow, or where crabapples are still grown, try making cider from them - it will be closer than anything else you can get to what was generally available in Northern Europe through the 13th century.<<<< Maybe, maybe not, if Dr. Wallis' study (unfortunately not well documented) is anywhere close to accurate. At least he is English and had at hand local sources available to access. The specificly grown fruit for fermentation he cites would tend to preclude good cider from "wild" apples or crabs. My own studies (as I am in progress of commercial growing of period and "old" varieties now of apples and pears) seems to indicate a very definite and period "specialization" of fruits for eating, cooking, desserts, and fermentation. "Wild" apples grown from seeds are totally random and are mostly awful, especially in the US where the current orchard stocks from which seedlings occur are generally only "eating apples" and not particularly good ones at that. I think your statement might be more possibly true in areas of Europe where the original Malus stock from which domestic apples were breed still exists. I would suspect that the cider from Saxon times was very carefully produced from certain varieties (names of which were not recorded) by families or villages which became known for their product's superior taste. It seems that many cider varieties are very limited in their microclime and soil preferences, so a widespread and uniform industry does not seem to have been the case. I think recipes (passed by non written means) for sucessful blends were probably "secret" to some degree as to the varieties used and blended. Balthazar of Blackmoor asked: >>>>Does anyone have any information of which particular family of apples would be most appropriate for a "period style" cider? I would like to use "belgian apples", but have no information regarding which, if any, were grown in medieval times. If all else fails, I will use Granny Smith. I am looking for a tart apple cider, but the apples themselves need not be tart. The yeast should take care of that nicely. Any ideas?<<<< I think the best way to "approximate" period ciders and perrys is to research the most common 17th century varieties and what few 16th century varieties we can find, then look at the 18th and 19th century apples which descended from them (which we do have some records concerning their parentage). Generally, apples in Britain are classified in 8 or 9 "groups". Most cider apples will be in one or two groups at most. Go about selection by eliminating Apples which do not fall in the same groups as cider apples. This should knock out about 75% of apple varieties in modern cultivation. Then look for common ancestors of the oldest cider apples in the remaining 25% and see which of the 17th century varieties were the most frequent ancestors of good 18th century varieties. As cider and perry varieties were and are so specialized, we can at least see some of the common characteristics of shape, size, color and acidity which would help identify "periodlike" probabilities of the unnamed period survivors (if any). I think this is better than a hit or miss method using Granny Smith, Northern Spy or Winesaps, which are grown for their cooking and eating characteristics. Again, I point out that "tart" is not the only characteristic of good cider apples, it is a BLEND of sweet, bittersweet and sharp apple tastes. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:55:34 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - cider > Well now I'm confuzzled. Every year we go to a local orchard that sell > unpasteurized juice. We buy at least 10 gallons of their "apple cider" for a > party. These plastic jugs sit out on the porch in the weather which can be > above or below freezing but is usually quite cold. It takes about a day or > two to have slightly alcoholic cider that is just yummy! > > how is this so? the short answer is: there is cider and there is cider.... "Apple Cider" has several definitions. one is the unfiltered juice from the pressing of crushed apples, another is the wine made from such juice. We are using definition two. What you are doing is fine, and indeed very yummy, but we are talking making a rather strong wine out of it. A large part of the yummyness of the "regrigerator cider" you are making is the quantity of sugar. There is still a huge amount of unfermented sugar in your jugs. What we are doing is very similar to several recipes in or just outside of Period which call for aging the cider to develop the alcoholic content to it's maximum. When this is done, the sugars (which largely balanced out the tartness of the Malic Acid naturally present in the apple) are mostly gone, making the result seem _much_ more tart in taste. The malolactic ferment cuts the tartness by roughly 3 to 1, making the result more balanced, and allowing the residual sweetness in the wine, and other flavor elements, to show more in the wine. It does make a difference. Cider does have a subtle flavor so the yeast you use will strongly affect the final flavor, and the base wine tends to be _very_ clear, which is why the choice of yeast is so important. Wild Cider yeast tends to be just fine. It has been living wild in the orchard, and is well suited to apples. If you have a strong "wild" yeast presence in your house from much bread making, or some such, then you might want to hedge your bets by adding a well started yeast culture of a more appreopriate variety. Bread yeast is why so many of those college dorm "Jungle Juices" I remember so well from my days in the hallowed halls of Academia were so nasty and cloudy. Bread yeast should never be used to make cider. Cider yeast may be used to make bread, IIRC, though I have never tried it, myself. Certainly a large number of the bread recipes in period call for ale barm as the leavening agent. brandu Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:42:29 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - cider JGedney at dictaphone.com writes: << another is the wine made from such juice. We are using definition two. What you are doing is fine, and indeed very yummy, but we are talking making a rather strong wine out of it. >> Apple wine and apple cider are 2 different things. Anything over 6 1/2 per cent alcohol is apple wine and it is usually produced using the methods used to normally brew other types of wine. From 1 to 6 1/2 per cent is cider which locally is does not undergo the process that is used to make apple wine but rather it is fermented on it's own. Under 1 per cent is apple juice. As an added note cider is somewhat sparkling while apple wine is a still beverage. Most of the apple growers around here do not go to any great lengths to grow specific apples for cider making to be sold at the road side stands but rely on picking drops daily and pressing them. It is common practice to leave the jug sit for a few days until it becomes 'bubbly.' Further sitting (e.g., a few weeks) produces 'hard cider' and leaving it several months produces cider vinegar from the same jug. Now this may or may not reflect what is done in other parts of the US but this is the way it is done in my neck of the woods. Admittedly, commercial production is far different from what has been described in this post. Ras Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:58:47 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider > I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your > cider with, if you want to get good stuff? A lot of folk seem to like Pasteur Chanpagne, some like to use a mild flavored Ale yeast, such as Wyeast 1056. There are two schools of thought that seem to be at work here. Wine yeasts will finish dryer, converting more of the sugar into alchohol, more or less necessitating the malolactic conversion, or the result is hard to drink. But if you like a dry wine, such as champagnes and other wines in that family, this is a good end product to strive for. Ale yeasts will finish out at a lower alcohol concentration, so may produce a sweeter, fruitier end result. If you like Auslese, or sweet, fruity wines, you can try this. Many people who make cider will also boost the cider, to sweeten it, until the achohol concentrations get lethal for the yeast variety used. In wine yeasts that tends to be 14-21% , in ale yeasts that is closer to 8%. After the terminal concentration any added sugars will not ferment and render the end result sweeter. This is done to make the Cider more "appley and sweet" Usually apple juice concentrate is added to provide the sugars. It is possible (if the brewer is patient, uses a highly tolerant yeast, like champagne, rackes it to a clean carboy, and boosts the sugar regularly -- once a month or so), to make a semidry wine that will knoch your socks off at 40 to 50 proof. The thing is a that often in cider you will not taste the alcohol, as the bright acid notes and other flavors will mask the alcohol taste. This means you can make a "Stealth Bomber" Cider. (You don't see it coming, but you feel it's effects!) You can make this kind of cider, but it requires care and patience. It may take as much as a year to finish. brandu Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:29:21 -0800 (PST) From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider > I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your > cider with, if you want to get good stuff? I'm personally going to try with a lager yeast, Munich Lager, BC 2308. It produced a lot of 'green apple' flavour (acetaldehyde) when I made a lager at room temp with it. Angus. Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:14:22 -0500 From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider "Alderton, Philippa" wrote: > I've been meaning to ask- what kind of yeast should you innoculate your > cider with, if you want to get good stuff? That really depends on who you talk to. To make a traditional cider, use either the natural yeast if possible or an ale yeast. I like a Nottingham or Windsor, some of my friends swear by Edme. The results will be anywhere from 4 to 12%, depending on how much sugar you add. (For a sweet, lightly alcoholic apple cider, add about 1/2 a tablespoon of dry yeast and drink within 2-3 days.) You can get some interesting flavor variations using the different styles of ale yeasts. To make apple wine, I use a white wine yeast such as Lalvin 71B or K1V, which usually tops out at 16-18%. Some people swear by champagne yeast, but I can't abide the aftertaste that champagne yeast leaves. (The peach wine I made with it topped out at 23%.) YMMV Wyeast has a cider yeast out that I just started, so I don't know how it will work. Unfortunately, I don't know what the base yeast strain is. The decision with yeast boils down to what you like to drink. I'm a lightweight with a taste for sweet, so I prefer to make a cider of which I can drink more than one glass. - -Magdalena Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:08:37 -0700 From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> Subject: Re: SC - Apples for Cider Note that most apple juice only has enough sugar to produce about 6% alcohol, so almost any commercial yeast will ferment to dryness. If you want a sweeter finished product, you will have to try one of the methods brandu suggests to boost the sugar content until the yeast gives out, or try to stop the fermentation before it is finished. Colin Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:03:52 -0700 From: Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> Subject: SC - Yeast for Cider These two Web sites have good information about yeast for ciders: http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/GraftonG/cider/homepage.htm http://www.lallemand.com/brew/InFerment/Articles/Article_Cider.html This is a big subject, and a lot depends on personal preference - there is no "best" yeast for cider, it depends on the type of cider you want. For example, a lot of people use Champagne yeast; it works great and is very robust, gives very consistent results. But it will invariably produce a completely dry cider, because the yeast will consume very last molecule of sugar. Some people don't like that, and use a weaker yeast, like an ale yeast. But some people don't like the flavours produced by ale yeasts, so... Good Luck! Colin Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:08:06 -0500 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> Subject: Re: non-member submission - Re: SC - Cider Sauce Experiments Hey, Puck uses a cleaned garbage diaposal to grind up apples for cidering... amazing what you can learn about people's habits on the sca distilling list ;-0 margali [but it pressed out rather nicely, he was handing a bota around with some at Simple Fare this past fall.] Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:03:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT:scrumpy (was ...Ireland) > I've never seen this "scrumpy" here. Has anyone else? > I wish there were more ciders available here. > > Stefan li Rous Try ordering it from http://www.ciderbrandy.co.uk/ Four liters of scrumpy for =A34.70 +shipping. I've never ordered from them personally do I can't make a comment on their services. /Angus, the Swedish penguin. From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Upcoming Menu Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:24:56 +0100 >Second question, is apple cider period? How about hard cider? Alcoholic cider is very pre period. The vikings had it as did the saxons....presses have been found. They had weight presses...no screws, and you can drink the apple juice as it comes out. If you leave it for 24 hours it clears and if you leave it sealed for a year you have cider. vara Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 22:27:38 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cider Here are a few sources for more on cider and the USA. As to definitions, John Mariani in The Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, 1999 seems to indicate that the term cider was used for either "hard" or "sw