caudls-posets-msg - 3/25/08
Caudles and Possets. Late period drinks alcoholic drinks thickened with eggs or grain.
NOTE: See also the files: caudles-art, beverages-msg, p-toasting-msg, spiced-wine-msg, wassail-msg, eggs-msg, dairy-prod-msg, custards-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:51:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: sca-cooks Re: Hot Drinks
>What is the differance between a caudle and a posset?
pos.set \'pa:s-*t\ n [ME poshet, possot] : a hot drink of sweetened and
spiced milk curdled with ale or wine
cau.dle \'ko.d-*l\ n [ME caudel, fr. ONF, fr. caut warm, fr. L calidus -
more at] CALDRON : a drink (as for invalids) usu. of warm ale or wine mixed
with bread or gruel, eggs, sugar, and spices
Tibor
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:51:02 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - white drinks and other foods
Michael Macchione wrote:
> Now this may seem like a strange request, but do you know of any other
> period drinks besides milk, that are white??? I'm planning a feast to be
> served in Mid-winter, that has a White theme (all of the foods served are
> white, called white, or started out as white). I have this strange
> feeling that serving milk at a feast won't go over well, Any ideas???
Hmm. If the beverages are either white, called white, or started out as
white, this should be fairly easy. Many caudles are off-white, being,
essentially, ale or wine thickened with eggs. Then there is white
hippocras, white wine (Du-uhh, as my son says), white grape juice, etc.
I might be tempted to suggest almond milk, but I'm not sure about
whether this was used as a beverage, per se.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:02:50 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Possets
Made of Ale, milk, egg nutmeg sometimes !
A Yorkshire version c1860
1 slice thick white bread, 1tsp nutmeg, 2 tsp sugar, 1 pt white wine. Heat
bread & ale to almost boiling, add nutmeg & sugar, pour into china bowl add
wine, serve.
A Scottish version
1 pt milk, 2tbsp oatmeak, 1/4tsp salt, 2 tsp sugar, 1/4 tsp nutmeg, 1
tablespoon whiskey
put milk in pan, sprinkle oatmeal over also salt, heat quickly , stirring
to boiling, remove from heat stand 10 mins. Press tyhrough sieve, into
another saucepan, add sugar & nutmeg, reheat to nr boiling, stir to prevent
sticking. Remove stir in whiskey serve.
Try honey instead of sugar, brandy or ale instead of whiskey and so on !
A modern one !
grated rind & juice of 2 lemons or limes, 1 pt double cream, 150ml dry
white wine, 2-3 tbsp castoe sugar, 3 egg whites
add citrus bits to cream and whisk till stiff, stir in wine, whisk in
citrus juice little by little, add sugar to taste. Whisk egg whites till
stiff, fold into mixture, chill. Before serving whisk again and spoon into
dishes.
Now more a pudding than a drink !
I chose these to illustrate how difficult it is to pin down exactly what
these dishes are, to each region in each time they vary slightly.
The Scottish Version is my favorite BTW !
Mel
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:17:49 -0500
From: "Mark.S Harris" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: SC - Some more syllabub info
Someone was looking for information on period syllabubs. Here is some
info that may prove useful. This is on p73 of the _Hypocras, Caudels
and Possets_ chapter, written by Moria Buxton in _Liquid Nourishment_
in the Food and Society series edited by C. Anne Wilson:
Rich Possets were first cousins to the early syllabubs,
though syllabubs were always cold and possets should never
be chilled. In the sixteenth century early syllabubs were
simply made from milk or cream squirted with force into a
bowl of wine; later they developed into whipped syllabubs
where cream and wine and flavoring were beaten together,
and the froth taken off in spoonfuls and left to drain in its
pot (rather like an uncurded posset); and later still developed
into set syllabubs which bore more resemblance to our final
drink, the caudel.
Lord Stefan li Rous
stefan at texas.net
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 10:57:43 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - OT: Christmas Dinner... :)
> Oh, I acquired a full half gallon of fresh, heavy cream from a
> local farmer... any suggestions on what I should do with it?
> Besides the syllabub I'm taking to the big family meal tomorrow?
How about a posset, "Martha Washington's Book of Cookery" has a excellent
sack posset. Essentially it is a cooked eggnog forerunner. With
ingredients consisting of 14 egg yolks, 7 egg whites, a pint of heavy
cream, 1/2 pound of sugar, a cup of sherry and a nutmeg it will harden your
arteries just sniffing it.
You dissolve the sugar in the sherry add the cream and heat the mixture to
below a boil. After thoroughly mixing the eggs you slowly add them to the
pot stirring all the while. Stir while cooking until the mixture is "pretty
thick", almost as thick as pan cake batter. Remember to both keep the heat
on low and stir constantly. Watch out for sticking on the bottom, as it
will scorch and burn if you are not careful. After it is cooked pour it off
into an serving pitcher, I used a smallish ceramic one. Be careful of
scraping the bottom of the pan as any burnt portions will be down there and
you will want to leave them behind. Serve blood warm with ground nutmeg
sprinkled on the top.
You might want to check the unredacted recipe in MW as I can't seen to find
my copy and have provided the above from memory. The truth is this dish
should probably be prepared in a double boiler but as I don't have one I
have never done it that way.
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:04:28 EDT
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Blamang
cjvt at hotmail.com writes:
<< The recipe is Harl MS 279 no 82, for Blamang, and the last line reads
'[th]ou myght depart hem with a cawdelle ferry y-wreten before...'
What is a cawdelle ferry y-wreten? >>
A caudle is a warm drink, spiced and sugared. The "Cawdelle Ferry" recipe in
Vol. 1 of "Take a Thousand Eggs..." is made of wine, egg yolks, sugar,
saffron, salt, mace, cloves, galingale, and cinnamon, and served with "white
powder" strewn on top. Effectively, a thickened spiced wine, I guess, but
probably more custardy in consistency.
I'm not sure about "y-wreten"...OH. Is there a recipe for cawdelle ferry
written in the manuscript before the blamang recipe?? It might mean that
when your guests are finished with the blamang and it is taken away
(departed), you might then serve them the cawdelle ferry "written before"!
The Cawdelle Ferry recipe in "Take a Thousand Eggs" is also from Harl MS 279,
and is number 47! So it would be "written before"! Sort of "serve this with
the dish from page 32".
Cool! A serving suggestion from the 15th century!
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:38:12 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - My first attempt at a period(ish) recipe. (Very Long!)
>That sounds yummy! I don't think I have seen the recipe yet, so I'll have
>to look for it. Which did you prefer, the sherry or the brandy?
Tis a toss up love. I have been intending to try it with a dark rum like
Myers as well. The full recipe calls for a cup of sherry thus if you use
brandy the resultant posset though cooked will have more alcohol in it.
Regards the substitution of brandy it was the holiday and I had forgotten to
buy sherry. When you cook it the actual directions say to cook it "pretty
thick" and serve it "blood warm". The trick is that you will stir it and
stir it, so that everything on the bottom gets stirred and not left behind.
Then all of a sudden you will notice that it has finally started to thicken,
just like a cooked custard I have been told. It is very easy to burn it on
the bottom at this stage so you are probably better off using a double
boiler. If you find that it is starting to scorch on the bottom, do not
scrap the bottom but pour off what you have and it will be salvageable. If
you really burn it however it is pretty much a total loss. I have served it
both warm and chilled. In either case you will want to serve it in very
small cups as it is extremely rich. Check Ms. Hess's documentation if you
would as it appears there is some debate on posset periodicity. Be that as
it may it is becoming a Yule tradition around my house.
Daniel Raoul
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:56:48 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - possets
Daniel Phelps wrote:
> For what it is worth of the possets in Martha Washington, of which there are
> at least three recipes, one is made with ale/beer other two are made with
> sack. I must find my copy and check what Ms. Hess says regards their
> periodicity as you have gotten me curious.
I think the area of distinction, at least at some point when there was a
clear distinction, was that possets were thickened with grain, as a
rule, while caudles are thickened with eggs. I'm sure there are
exceptions, but in general that seems to be the difference.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:09:27 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - possets
>I think the area of distinction, at least at some point when there was a
>clear distinction, was that possets were thickened with grain, as a
>rule, while caudles are thickened with eggs. I'm sure there are
>exceptions, but in general that seems to be the difference.
The one posset from Martha Washington I did was thickened with egg. The
ingredient list as I remember it is as follows:
egg yolk 14
egg white 7
heavy cream 1 pint
sugar ? (don't remember the quantity)
sherry 1 cup
nutmeg
ambergis (didn't have it, didn't use it, don't know where to get it, don't
know any sick sperm whales)
No grain.
If anyone has a copy they might check the other recipes and what Ms. Hess
says.
Daniel Raoul
From: "Dan Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Christmas dinner plans
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:57:40 -0800
> Does anybody have a good recipe for eggnog? I had one, but can't find
> it. I really don't like eggnog, so this is one of those few things that
> I really can't intuit myself.
There is a really tasty sack posset (eggnog?) recipe in Martha Washington's
Book of Cookery which I have made on several occasions. It's a cooked
eggnog sort of thing. If I recall correctly 14 egg yolks, seven egg whites,
a cup of sherry, a pint of heavy cream, a half a pound of sugar, half a
nutmeg and some amberguis, the amberguis is optional. I'll give you more
info if you want ...as soon as I find where I put my copy of Martha. I've
made it with brandy and it came out tasty. I've been intending to make it
with Dark Rum but haven't got around to it.
Daniel Raoul
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:37:17 -0700
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A college class... on Coffee
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
There are caudels of various sorts in _Curye 0n Inglysch_, which is more
mid-period than late period. Some of them are closer to soups than
beverages, and contain things like seafood and leeks
--maire
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> However, I thought caudles and possets were mostly late period and
> post-period with the first documented ones being in the 16th century.
> Anyone know otherwise?
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:38:54 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg nog was New here Hello All!!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Johnna Holloway wrote: Welcome.
> Can you provide the website and source for your egg nog recipe?
> You indicate that it's circa 1579. That's much earlier than normally
> asserted for a named egg nog recipe..
>
> The OED has this to say about egg nogs--
> *egg-nog (nog- strong ale. ] A drink in which the white and yolk of
> eggs are stirred up with hot beer, cider, wine, or spirits.
>
> The first quote they give is:
> *1825* /Bro. Jonathan/ I. 256 The egg-nog..had gone about rather
> freely.
Nog is late 17th century. John Ayto writes-- *nog*
Nog was originally an East Anglian term (of unknown ancestry) for a sort
of strong beer?in 1693 we find one Humphrey Prideaux writing in a letter
of ?a bottle of old strong beer, which in this country [Norfolk] they
call ?nog??. Not until the early nineteenth century was it applied (in
full as /egg nog/) to a drink made from milk and beaten eggs mixed with
rum, brandy, or wine. An alternative name for it is /egg flip/.
At least in the SCA, alcohol is freely omitted these days. Sites that
forbid alcohol, problems with liability on drinking and driving,
families with children that don't attend if alcohol is served, lots of
adults that don't drink
(numerous people who aren't AA members also have made the decision not
to drink) and the various regulations that deal with
alcohol at official events and who pays for it, etc. I gather that you
aren't with the SCA, so your group's feeling about this
may vary of course.
Johnnae
>> AllRober3 at aol.com wrote:
>>> I am so pleased to be a part of a cooking guild here. I just
>>> joined a Renaissance Group, and in the group I joined a Invocation
>>> Guild, which I chose Cooking and Kitchen Arts. I would like to do a
>>> presentation at each of our gatherings, which are bi monthly, and
>>> for the December Gathering I had found a recipe for Eggnog on a
>>> website that called for: Sugar 4 Egg Yokes Cinnamin Sweetish Wine
>>>
>>> I would like to make this because it is from the time period that
>>> the group I am in, is at 1579, but I am a recovering alcoholic, and
>>> really don't want to use alcohol. Is there any other recipes for
>>> eggnog that any of you know of from that time without alcohol, If
>>> not then I figure I will make it, and just buy myself the eggnog at
>>> the store.
>>>
>>> Stephen
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:40:09 EST
From: AllRober3 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg nog was New here Hello All!!
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Johnna,
I am so sorry about the lengthy reply, but here is the recipe I found
from 1569.. I could not find the same website again, but I have it
saved on my computer.
~Stephen
MARTINO ROSSI
How to make good eggnog
Per fare bono zambaglione per farne una taza, piglia quatro ova zo? lo
rossame, e [...] zucharo e canella a sufficienzia et de bono vino amabille, e sel fusse troppo fumoso mettili uno poco d'aqua o de brodo magro poi fale
cocere am? se coce lo brodeto et sempre menace con lo cugiaro et quando se imbratta [ponilo in taza].
egg yolks
sugar
cinnamon
sweetish wine
To make a portion of good eggnog, get four eggs (just the yolks) and
[...] a generous amount of sugar and cinnamon, and add some sweetish wine. If the mixture begins to smell like smoke, add a little water or lean broth.
Cook in the same way as broth, stirring constantly with a spoon, and when it
soils [the spoon, serve it in a cup].
HISTORIC NOTES
This very antique recipe, which appears in Martino Rossi's manuscript
preserved at Riva del Garda (but not contained in the Washington
manuscript ), was
often recommended for people who had to do strenuous work or who were
debilitated. For example, in his book on obstetrics published in
1569, Girolamo
Mercurio, a Roman physician, recommended eggnog for women in childbirth. Mercurio, who
also included a recipe for eggnog in his book, defines it as a Milanese
speciality and specifies the same ingredients as Martino. It is interesting to note the many attempts that have been made to indicate the precise moment when
this brew is ready to serve: Marino says it is done when it "soils" (that is,
when the mixture is so dense that it adheres to the wooden spoon and "soils" it),
while Mercurio maintains that eggnog is ready when it assumes "the thickness
of the top of milk" (that is, the consistency of cream). In any event, Nico
Marin was the master of modern eggnog. Many restaurant owners, cooks, customers
and friends in Italy and abroad remember him after the evening meal when,
brandishing his inseparable copper sauce pot, he would delve into the art of
creating the extraordinary, soft, smooth and light eggnogs which he
happily served to anyone who happened to be dining at the time.
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:46:38 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg nog was New here Hello All!!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Thanks so much for posting the recipe and notes as you have them.
I can see where the misconceptions come in.
To start, I managed to locate the source on the web.
The webpage that lists this recipe and the notes can be found at:
http://www.nicomarin.com/ricette/ric390_e.htm
This is a commercial site, not a historical cookery or food site.
The notes say that "This very antique recipe, which appears in Martino
Rossi's manuscript preserved at Riva del Garda (but not contained in the
Washington manuscript ), was often recommended for people who had to do
strenuous work or who were debilitated. For example, in his book on
obstetrics published in 1569, Girolamo Mercurio...."
Martino was not around in 1569. The Mercurio text is another totally
different book.
Martino de Rossi or Martino of Como was active in the 1460's.
Please don't make the mistake of dating eggnog though back to the
1460's, because
this is not an eggnog recipe. This is a recipe for the Italian dish Zabaglione
which Gillian Riley in The Oxford Companion to Italian Food describes as
"a pale delicate froth of egg yolks beaten up with sugar in a bowl over
a pan of hot but not boiling water to thicken it slightly."
When one looks at this recipe and it's modern version in Italian
on the website under http://www.nicomarin.com/ricette/ric390.htm
one finds that the version reads: "Per fare una porzione di buon
zabaglione...."
What has happened is that zabaglione has been translated into eggnog and
not left as simply as zabaglione.
The fact that the notes then continue as "In any event, Nico Marin was
the master of modern eggnog" or "Maestro del moderno zabaglione ? stato tuttavia Nico Marin" continues the substitution of zabaglione
for eggnog.
Zabglione is not a drink--- it's a dessert. I think most culinary
historians would agree that sadly it's not a true eggnog.
If you would like to examine the recipe in translation,
the Rive del Garda recipes appear in Jeremy Parzen's edition of Martino
that appeared as The Art of Cooking. The First Modern Cookery Book,
2005. It appears there on page 118 as "How to make a good zabaglione." He doesn't make the mistake of saying it's an eggnog.
Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:21:39 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg nog was New here Hello All!!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Nov 19, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
> Zabglione is not a drink--- it's a dessert. I think most culinary
> historians would agree that sadly it's not a true eggnog.
> If you would like to examine the recipe in translation,
> the Rive del Garda recipes appear in Jeremy Parzen's edition of Martino
> that appeared as The Art of Cooking. The First Modern Cookery Book,
> 2005. It appears there on page 118
> as "How to make a good zabaglione." He doesn't make the mistake of
> saying it's an eggnog.
I'm inclined to agree that this is probably a spoonable product, based
on the number of yolks used for a portion. It's conceivable zabaglione
has changed over the years, and there's a related French custard sauce
known as sabayon which is pourable, but in general zabaglione is a
spoon-food, while egg-nog, by name and definition, it being a noggin
of something and all, is a drink.
If I were looking for period-ish fore-runners of egg-nog I'd look at
17th-century English caudle recipes...
Adamantius
<the end>