crossbows-msg - 1/31/12

 

Period and SCA crossbows.

 

NOTE: See also the files: crossbows-lnks, arch-shoots-msg, arrows-msg, quivers-msg, arch-supplies-msg, archery-books-msg, bowstrings-msg, Arrow-Matchng-art.

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

FROM: Bruce Irvin

SUBJECT: Re: Crossbow assistance

 

> Anyone out there know anything about period crossbows? I'm looking to

> acquire one sometime in the near future and would like to know if any of

> you have any good recommendations...

>     And no, I'm not really worried as long as the price is comparable to

> modern ones ($250 range or so)

   Please write Meistare Elom Eikinskjalde at P.O. Box 125, Gainesville, FL

32602-0125 (An Crosaire's official mailbox).   He has plans available for

making your own crossbow - far less than $250,  and they are NICE.  It'd be a

good idea to include some funds for photocopying and an appropriate size

SASE.  I _think_ a dollar would cover costs,  but then,  he wasn't charging

the Barony for his research ( then again, he's our Baron :) - a little extra

would be hard to refuse,  given the Gainesville Postal Disservice.

                                       In service,

                                       Brion Gennadyevich

* Origin: The WARLOCK's Castle, An Crossaire, Trimaris!  (1:3601/70)

 

 

From: st1xe at jane.uh.edu (Brown, Derek S)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Crossbow book

Date: 8 Apr 1993 10:50 CDT

Organization: University of Houston

 

Earlier I was asked to get the info on how to make a crossbow string. Rather

than try to explain the entire process (though if enough people ask me to

I will) I did get the best source I have been able to find.  If is called:

 

          The Crossbow

        Mediaeval and Modern

        Military and Sporting

        Its construction, history, and management

 

        by Ralph Payne-Gallwey

        published by The Holland Press Ltd.

 

        ISBN # 0-946323-14-3

 

Good Luck

 

William Silke

Ansteorra

 

 

From: Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: growing a crossbow

Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 00:45:53 -0500

Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)

 

Jeff Suzuki <jeffs at math.bu.EDU> writes:

>>I was wondering if anyone out there had any ideah or could point me

>>to a book title on how to home grow a crossbow.

Greetings:

I've built several, and am currently engaged in constructing one in the

1000+ pound range.  Of the people who build them regularly, I'm the only one

I know of online.  (Before someone from Caid jumps me, my knowledge ends

in Texas...)  If you have any particular questions, E-mail me, and I'll try

to put you in touch with the people you need.

Two reccomendations:

Best book in English:  Sir Ralph Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow: it's use, con

struction and management"

Fairly good descriptions of externals, but he was a dabbler: absolutely

*do not* trust him for anything inside the body of the tiller, or any

mechanisms. I've discovered that one the hard way by actually building one

of his lock mechanisms, only to discover that what he had drawn was mechanically

impossible. (In point of fact, the only way I could get the trigger to work

was by adding an extra part that isn't visible from the outside, and also

to totally change the operational principle of the whole device...)

The book with the best pictures (X-rays of period bows so you can see

what's *really* going on inside!)

Egon Harmuth's "Die Armbrust"  Unfortunately, it's in German.

I've heard rumours of an English translation, but haven't seen it yet.

Hope this helps, if not contact me at:

ALBERIC6 at DELPHI.COM

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: growing a crossbow

From: david.razler at compudata.com (David Razler)

Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 01:55:00 -0500

Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245

 

>I was wondering if anyone out there had any idea or could point me

>to a book title on how to home grow a crossbow.

 

JS>First, you obtain crossbow seeds.  This is the difficult part, but

JS>they are available in some catalogs...;-)

 

Oh, come on!

 

1) Contact Master Iolo (David R. Watson) prop. of New World Arbalest and buy

one of his kits - or just one of his bows - you'll learn a good deal of what

you need to know from either experience. 201 W. Crestland Drive, Austin Tx.

78752-2427 or (512) 453-2628.

 

2) get a copy of Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey's The Crossbow (of 1903,

republished last in 1990 by Holland Press) and Egon Harmuth's Die Armbrust,

Ein Handbuch, ISBN 3-201-01298-x, 1986, Austria, and a good English-German

dictionary.

                                        Aleksandr the Traveller

                                     [david.razler at compudata.com]

 

 

From: caradoc at neta.com (John Groseclose)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Crossbows and a Question

Date: 28 Jun 1995 04:01:02 GMT

Organization: Who? Me? Organized?

 

In article <950625163053.414016a2 at vax2.utulsa.edu>, IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu

(I. Marc Carlson) wrote:

 

<snip>

 

>The trigger assembly has only two moving parts: the nut that holds the

>string, and the sear/trigger.  There is a small metal strip that acts

>as a spring to push the trigger down, thus holding the sear in its place

>on the nut until the trigger is pulled up.  At this point the tension,

>on the string, rotates the nut in a circle, releasing the projectile.

>The nut was often carved from bone, and generally had a groove in the

>upper section, to hold the arrow, so that when the string was

>released, it moved the arrow smoothly.

>Now for two questions:

>a: What is the trigger made from?

>b: What sort of glue may be used that is flexible enough to use for

>compound bows?

 

A: In all of the examples in my books, the trigger mechanism is made of

iron or mild steel. In one example the actual nut is brass, but the

sear/trigger is mild steel.

 

B: I can only assume you meant composite bow, as the "compound" bow uses

pulleys and cams to provide a "roll-off" of draw weight. The glue used in

the example listed is made from horn or hoof, boiled. Don't forget the

small cross-hatching grooves in most sections of a composite bow to

increase the surface area for gluing.

 

--

John Groseclose <caradoc at neta.com> -- HTTP://www.neta.com/~caradoc/

 

 

From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: First Knight

Date: 17 Jul 1995 02:35:19 GMT

Organization: New York University

 

David F Shallcross (davids at konig.bellcore.com) wrote:

: In article <3ttra6$48e at gabriel.keele.ac.uk> csr50 at teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (B. Watkins) writes:

: [lots of stuff]

: >And boy oh boy did I miss Merlin and Excalibur and Mordred.   Who is this

: >Malagant person, and where did he get those funny little crossbows?

 

: Both in Cretien de Troyes' version and Mallory's version of

: The Knight of the Cart, someone with a name like Malagaunt

: abducts Guinevere, and Lancelot rescues her.

 

As for hand-held crossbows -

I didn't see the movie, so theirs may be different but

"Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" shows a painting of a saint

carying a "pistol" crossbow - round about the twelfth century I think.

 

Nahum Kuzari

 

 

From: "David R.Watson" <crossbow at moontower>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: The Crossbow by Payne-Gallwey

Date: 16 Sep 1995 17:15:22 GMT

Organization: New World Arbalest

 

Hello:  Payne Gallwey is still the most readily available book in

English on crossbows.  Chivalry Sports newsletter/catalog is advertising

a copy of Payne Gallwey for abbout $12.  I suspect that is a paperback.

You might also look for:  The Crossbow, by W. Paterson, published by

Society of Archer Antiquaries.  Survey of European Crossbows, by Joseph

Alm, published by Her Majestey's Stationery Office. (Tower of London),

and Die Armbrust, the most authoritative source I have found, Pub. 1986,

by Egon Harmuth, Graz, Austria.  This last is available only in German,

but is worth the $30 for the illustrations alone.  Get in touch with

G.F. Armoury Books, in Tuscon (That's William Taylor), his address can

be found in the Pennsic book.    If you want this book, Bill told me at

Pennsic that he can order it for interested customers.  Good hunting.  

Iolo

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton)

Subject: Re: Crossbow prods wanted

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:54:15 GMT

 

at chch.planet.co.nz wrote:

: Out here in the Southern Reaches of Caid (New Zealand), we are a long way from

: the mainland and so getting certain supplies can be difficult, so I am writing

: in the hope that someone can help me source crossbow prods (I think that is

: the correct word). I am currently in the process of making a crossbow for the

: purpose of mixed combat so I need a 30 pound bow. The ones I have seen were

: made by New World Arbalest (I've tried to contact them but have only got their

: answer phone) out of some sort of aluminium (apparently no available here). If

: you think that you can help me, please mail me at rsutton at chch.planet.co.nz. I

: would really appreciate any help. There is a reasonable amount of interest in

: this project so we may be able to do a group order.

 

: Thanks

 

: Gilbert de Montfort

: rsutton at chch.planet.co.nz

 

Try: Aalchemical Transmutation Co.  He makes tempered steel prods and

other steel crossbow parts.  James Koch 314 East 195th., Euclid, Ohio

44119. (216) 481-9862. He is on the list of traditional bow making

suppliers.

 

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf.  Esfenn, Mists, West

 

 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Crossbow Materials

Date: 3 Oct 1995 16:36:36 -0500

Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

 

Ok, I've tried to be a good little boy, but I can't help myself.

 

I've finally gotten a hold of a copy of Payne-Gallwey, and it looks like

a good work, as long as certain variations in jargon are overlooked.

Several months ago, there was some question about my suggestions for

a 12th C cross bow to use a composite bow form with an Antler nut,

based on material that I pulled from Arthur MacGregor's work on

skeletal technology.

 

Payne-Gallwey not only supports MacGregor's suggestion (and I suspect,

based on the drawing of the trigger mechanism, was his source) for these

items but indeed verifies that "Steel nuts and sockets were not generally

fitted to crossbows till about 1640-1650" (Footnote on page 97).  More

over while he states that they were made from "Horn", he proceeds to

describe what "horns" on a Stag's "Crown of Antlers" were best.

 

I apologize to any bystanders who are nauseated by gloating.  I should

be back to my more acerbic self shortly...

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep

-- St. Dunstan                    Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

                              (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

 

 

From: "David R.Watson" <crossbow at moontower>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Crossbow Materials

Date: 5 Oct 1995 13:45:12 GMT

Organization: New World Arbalest

 

Regarding crossbow materials amd sources.  The great majority of

medieval and renaissance crossbows used staghorn nuts.  The section you

want is at the very base of the horn, adjoining the skull.  You also

want a piece with the least possible pith.  The best horn I have seen

for the purpose is probably moose horn, in which there is a great deal

of useable ivory and when there is pith, it is usually very tight.

Payne Gallwey's book is the most easily available source.  The best

overall book is Egon Harmuth's "Die Armbrust" published in Graz,

Austria, 1986. German only, with great illustrations.  Other excellent

works on Medieval crossbows are:  "A Guide to the Crossbow", by W.

Paterson, pub. by Society of Archer Antiquaries, and Joseph Alm's

"Survey of European Crossbows" pub. by Her Majestey's Stationery Office

(Tower of London)  Both of these books are in English, and have plenty

of fascinating detail.  Look them up.  I have had good luck getting off

the wall books like this from G.F. Armoury Books, of Tuscon (Get 'em on

the Field Armoury.)  Have fun with your crossbows.  

 

Iolo,

crossbow at moontower.com

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret)

Subject: Re: Crossbow Materials

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:22:36

Organization: PSU

 

"David R.Watson" <crossbow at moontower> writes:

 

> Regarding crossbow materials amd sources.  The great majority of

>medieval and renaissance crossbows used staghorn nuts.  The section you

>want is at the very base of the horn, adjoining the skull.  You also

>want a piece with the least possible pith.  The best horn I have seen

>for the purpose is probably moose horn, in which there is a great deal

>of useable ivory and when there is pith, it is usually very tight.

> Payne Gallwey's book is the most easily available source.  The best

>overall book is Egon Harmuth's "Die Armbrust" published in Graz,

>Austria, 1986. German only, with great illustrations.  Other excellent

>works on Medieval crossbows are:  "A Guide to the Crossbow", by W.

>Paterson, pub. by Society of Archer Antiquaries, and Joseph Alm's

>"Survey of European Crossbows" pub. by Her Majestey's Stationery Office

>(Tower of London)  Both of these books are in English, and have plenty

>of fascinating detail.  Look them up.  I have had good luck getting off

>the wall books like this from G.F. Armoury Books, of Tuscon (Get 'em on

>the Field Armoury.)  Have fun with your crossbows.  Iolo,

>crossbow at moontower.com

 

An English translation of Harmuth is available from HMSO (Tower of London) but

is only available in the UK. I do not know if they will ship to US.

 

Ferret

 

 

From: sirb at hevanet.com (Phred Meyer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Crossbow prods wanted

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 22:24:55 -0800

Organization: Sir Blackhand

 

I am writing  in the hope that someone can help me source crossbow prods.

> Gilbert de Montfort

> rsutton at chch.planet.co.nz

 

Greetings From Y Blackhand

Try the following WWW site. It has a list of manufactures that I used to

find prods for my project. Plus items on history, making, hunting, and a

glossary.

I'm making tennisball shooting crossbows for combat archery.

(Crossbows)

http://www.ee.nmt.edu/~roy/crossbows.html

alt.archery

Good luck

 

Y Blackhand  KSCA OL OP

Omnia Pecuniae

 

 

From: pgarcia at unm.edu (Phil Garcia)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: New Edition "The Crossbow"

Date: 28 Nov 1995 19:52:26 -0700

Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

 

Dover has just released a copy of Ralph Payne-Gallwey's book

"The Book of the Crossbow" ISBN 0-486-287203.

Cover price $17.95.

 

The copy I have appears to be an unaltered and unabridged

copy of the 1907 version I have.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Phil

pgarcia at chicoma.la.unm.edu

 

 

From: "David R. Watson" <crossbow at moontower.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: New Edition "The Crossbow"

Date: 2 Dec 1995 01:03:21 GMT

Organization: MoonTower Inc - Austin Texas Internet

 

   Hello, Folks:  Iolo here.  Payne Gallwey's books is a good resource

book on crossbows.  This is the old standby.  It's not always entirely

correct, but pretty much everything works if you do it his way.  This

book at less than $20 is a steal.  I recommend it.  Yeah, Harmuth's "Die

Armbrust" is more authoritative, but how many of us are really competent

in technological German?  Iolo Sez Check it Out.

 

 

From: david.razler at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: crossbow help...please?

Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:34:57 GMT

 

"Milo Le Roux (mka Floyd Brigdon)" <brigdon1 at airmail.net> wrote:

 

|     1) Are there any companies or SCAdians making crossbows of SCA

| poundage with modern trigger assemblies?

 

1) There were some, but few complex locks in period. They did not have modern

triggers 2) While bows with modern triggers are probably available, most

likely through suppliers of "traditional" English sporting crossbows, and

while you may be able to custom-order one from New World Arbalest, if Iolo is

willing to make one, my question is why sink a substantial piece of change

into buying something which is deliberately anti-authentic? It is like

deciding that you are going to buy garb for Society wear, and deliberately and

knowingly spending hundreds of dollars on a reproduction Roaring 20s

"gangster" suit.

|     2) How much different to shoot is the historically accurate trigger

| assembly?

 

Much and not much - the effect is the same, but ASSUMING BOWS OF EQUAL

QUALITY,        the period bow requires a slightly different stance and a

little more concern about aim and slow, even trigger release.

 

Though more complex locks were known in period <for starters, see New World's

Uncle Iolo's First Book of Crossbows and Ralph Payne-Galleway's The Crossbow

<not the Dover edition> which includes diagrams for both reproduction and

'modern' sporting bows which can be turned into plans adaptable to Society

use, (though again I ask why put in all the effort and expense to build

something wrong when right is easier and better)> the simple locks found on

most Society bows (direct-activated roller or rising pin) were by far the most

common and most reliable.

 

Old lock stiles do require a bit of care when firing to make super-accurate.

You need to be concerned about not moving the stock as you fire. It is not

terribly hard to master, and is unorthodox to someone who expects anything

with a trigger to fire like a modern gun.

 

The modern gunstock-style crossbow stock, a post-period invention, sits more

easily on the shoulder (where period crossbows were not necessarily fired

from) and spreads the (relatively minimal) recoil over a larger surface area.

If recoil is the problem, the best method of maintaining period appearance and

solving the problem is probably a hard surface/soft backed pad inserted under

the archer's *clothing* and therefore invisible.

 

Yes, modern bows with complex releases may, if made well, be a bit easier to

handle and more forgiving to sloppy handling than anything Iolo or our other

crossboyers turn out. Then again, a fiberglass-stocked crossbow with a

compound prod, laser sight, mercury-filled stabilizers and an

solenoid-released roller is probably even more accurate.

 

We ban the last, permitting any crossbow with a wooden stock, period or not.

But why bother?

 

David M. Razler

david.razler at worldnet.att.net

 

 

From: jdirocco at sprynet.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Crossbow information.

Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:01:43 GMT

 

claude at nickel.laurentian.ca wrote:

>   I have a quick question. Does anyone know when the first crossbow was

>constructed and used in actual combat ?

 

>   Claude.

 

The crossbow principle was first used by the Greeks, Romans, and eary

Byzantines for siege weapons. The first use as an infantry weapon are

Frankish early 10th cent.. Record at siege of Senlis 949 and Verdum

985.

 

Giovanni

 

 

From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Building a medieval crossbow.

Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 01:03:48 GMT

 

>   I wish to construct a medieval crossbow to add to my medieval weapons

>collection. What I need to know is how they where made ? What king of

>material was used for the various parts ? What kind of finish was used ?

>What kind of trigger mechanism was used ? Are there any plans available ?

 

http://www.moontower.com/crossbow/

Last time I checked this was the address of New World Arbelest.

Don Iolo Fitzowen makes authentic reproductions and will help you.

--

Crandall

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker)

Subject: Re: FIBERGLASS SHAFTS LEGAL?

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:08:54 GMT

 

Jay Stranahan ("jaystr at jaystr" at best.com) wrote:

 

: I am currently putting together a loaner armory of 3 crossbows, wih the

: vague idea of arming a retinue of men-at-arms to give me fire support

: and generally raise merry hell. I have the wood for the stocks and the

: aluminum prods & all the rest of the components I require, but dare not

: assemble them until I know what we're going to allow in the way of

: munitions.

 

It is possible to construct a crossbow for golf tube arrows that an insert

can be added to when you wish to fire wood or fiberglass bolts, either for

combat or target archery. My lord recently added one to his, which

attatches with screws (going through the wood insert to metal receivers

implanted in the stock). He's seen no difference in firing either kind

with the golftube width nut the bow uses.

 

--Morgan (Max)

-- ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry at netcom.com>

 

Sleepy Cat Graphis           http://emporium.turnpike.net/Z/zen/index.html

P.O. Box 608048                     - The Church of Zen Fatalism -

San Diego, CA 92160                      Artful Things Gallery

 

 

From: Christa Fulton <crealtor at ix.netcom.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: FIBERGLASS SHAFTS LEGAL?

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:00:44 GMT

 

destry at netcom.com (Fellwalker) wrote:

>It is possible to construct a crossbow for golf tube arrows that an insert

>can be added to when you wish to fire wood or fiberglass bolts, either for

>combat or target archery. My lord recently added one to his, which

>attatches with screws (going through the wood insert to metal receivers

>implanted in the stock). He's seen no difference in firing either kind

>with the golftube width nut the bow uses.

>--Morgan (Max)

 

Good idea but the problem with that is then your Crossbow will have the

equvelent of a 30lb bow and with a golf tube you do need the extra 20 lbs

to get it to work.  If your Cross Bow is set for Golf Tube pulls

they are illegal in battle with a wood shafted arrow.

 

Now for target archery have fun with it.

 

Labhrainn

 

 

From: james koch <alchem at en.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Combat crossbows

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:19:49 -0400

Organization: alchem inc

 

Dabhaidh wrote:

> Are there any web sites with SCA combat crossbow information (such

> as some images and perhaps construction info)?

>

> Dabhaidh Donnachaidh

> "Virtutis Gloria merces"

 

     I don't know of any web sites, and I search the subject weekly.

However there is an excellent book available for $5 from J.P.W. Griswold

entitled "On Constructing Iaian's Combat Crossbow".  To order a copy

send $5.50 to J.P.W. Griswold / PO Box 94 / Fountain, Michigan /

49410-0094. This is a highly detailed work and gives directions which

can be adapted to target crossbows as well (for instance string

construction).

     Also, Iaian is currently selling combat crossbows in both a kit

form and fully finished.  For pricing and shipping information he can be

phoned at (616)462-3337.

     If you want target crossbow plans, these can be viewed for the

time being at "www.en.com/users/lmduchez/alchem/".  Jim Koch (Gladius)

 

 

From: james koch <alchem at en.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Crossbow order info

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:27:21 -0400

Organization: alchem inc

 

About a week ago I added a page to my corporate web site depicting

crossbows being manufactured by Medieval Archers Supply in Redmond,

Washington. Today I have added contact information for those

individuals wishing to order a bow from M.A.S.  The updated page can be

viewed by visiting "http://www.alcheminc.com" and selecting the

appropriate link.  Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

 

 

From: james koch <alchem at en.com>

Organization: alchem inc

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Crossbow Construction Book

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:54:36 GMT

 

Red Iain recently provided me with his e-mail address and I have added

it to the page dedicated to his book entitled "On Constructing Iain's

Combat Crossbow".  Don't be fooled by the title.  This book gives you

all the information necessary to construct any sort of crossbow.  Even

the how tos on string making.  I put this information to good use this

past week when I made my first crossbow string.  The book ordering

information can be found at "http://www.alcheminc.com".  Jim Koch

(Gladius The Alchemist)

 

 

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:25:46 -0400

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: Merryrose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu,

       stefan at texas.net

Subject: Crossbow Books and a Rumor of Harmuth's Die Armbrust In English.

 

Stefan, (et al,)

 

Somewhere in your crossbow section I believe you have a note stating

that there was an English translation to be had at the Tower of

London. Having Egon Harmuth's _Die Armbrust_, and not reading German,

but being the technical buff I am, I enlisted Melanie's help in

running the rumor to ground. Thanks Melanie.

 

The originals:

 

DIE ARMBRUST, Ein Handbuch,  (The Crossbow, a Handbook)

by Egon Harmuth, Akadem. Druk, 1975.

ISBN 3-201-01298-x, 1986, Austria,  (In German)

 

also-

 

Die Armbrust, Ein Handbuch,

DIE ARMBRUST - EINE SPORTWAFFE

by Egon Harmuth; E. Heer and C. Vetterli, Schlapfer & Co., 1976.

(also in German)

 

The Royal Armouries at Leeds have no knowledge of a copy in English.

I had mentioned the possible availabity at the Tower. I had sent

Dr. Turner all the information I could find. See below:

 

RE: Die Armbrust in English?

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:00:17 +0100

From: Paula Turner <Paula.Turner at armouries.org.uk>

 

Mr Howe:

 

I am afraid we do not supply translations of Die Armbrust; I cannot

track down any reference to this in the past, but it may have been

available through our shop in the Tower of London at one time. I think

I would need to see the original reference to be able to give you any

further information.

 

Alm's book of crossbows is indeed available again: please let me know

if you would like to order a copy. We have no other books on crossbows

specifically at present, though a book on Springalds or great crossbows

is in the press and should be available in October.

 

Many thanks for your enquiry,

 

Paula Turner

........

 

Melanie asked HMSO, MoLondon and the Tower for me:

 

> Well HMSO, The Tower of London Library, Museum of London all say it

was never done in translation, and the Tower said Harmuth was an

update of Payne-Gallway.

........

 

The Joseph Alm Book is _European Crossbows: A Survey_ and currently

sells for 9.95 GBPounds. Cost me 12.99 GBP from Bookpages UK this week

including shipping. (British sister company of Amazon) Same price

listed at the Armouries. Their page said it was being reprinted.

It is a paperback and is considered one of the better books on the

subject. ii + 122pp, 71 b/w illustrations, ISBN 0 948092 20 3

 

Payne-Gallway's _The Crossbow_ is out in multiple editions by different

publishers and at least one of them leaves out a chapter or two at

the back. This is why I have more than one copy. They vary widely in

price. A Dover for $18 (ISBN 0-486-287203) to about $50 elsewhere.

I am under the impression from talks with other folks it may be

complete. My two are from other publishers.

 

There is also a book by him on siege engines and catapults from about

1907. On careful examination with the above books in hand it is

basically just a reorganization of the same pictures and text from

the final chapters in _The Crossbow_. It is NOT worth tracking down

separately. You won't find anything worth the effort. I ILL'ed it.

It looks like a separate attempt to remilk the same cow.

 

Egon Harmuth's Die Armbrust and the P-G Crossbows book look to me to

be fairly different in many aspects. So I don't really see Die Armbrust

as _The Crossbow_ reworked. I own both.

 

The new book coming out on Springalds should be interesting to folks.

I don't have the specifics and it's not on the page yet but only a

month away.

Here is the Armouries Publications page address:

http://www.armouries.org.uk/collections/publications.htm

 

The Armories contact information is as follows:

http://www.armouries.org.uk/

Dr Paula Turner, Head of Publications, <Paula.Turner at armouries.org.uk>

Royal Armouries,

Armouries Drive

LEEDS. LS10 1LT   UK.   Telephone: +44 (0)113 2201999

 

(For those who may not know the Armouries moved most of the collection

from London to Leeds a couple of years ago.)

 

>I am sending this note to you so someone else won't go chasing their

tail. I'd heard that English translation rumor elsewhere. It appears

that is just what it is.<

 

If anyone DOES have a copy of Die Armbrust in English will you please

let Stefan know the specifics - title, publisher, address, ISBN, date.

I'm more than willing to stand corrected. I'd like a copy myself.

stefan at texas.net - Stefan's Florilegium / Rialto Files.

 

Master Magnus Malleus, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia and the GDHorde.

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Archery question

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 06:05:13 MST

From: Hugh Niewoehner <hughn at ssd.fsi.com>

To: Ansteorra <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

Tim Lozos (timden at lcc.net) said something that sounded like:

> I would like to acquire a decent cross bow and arrows.  Can anyone put me in

> touch with someone who has/makes them?  I have noticed that HE Octavia put a

> very nice perfectly round bruise in the center of a friend's chest, and was

> told that this was the result of a very nice crossbow....

 

This may be far afield for you but...there is also a Master Kazmiriz in

Grimfells (Fayetteville, AR) who does excellent working bows.

 

Chris Nogy <cnogy at DICKSONSTREET.COM>

There are some pictures of the bow he made for Ealdormere Coronation at:

http://users.dicksonstreet.com/~cnogy/xbow/

 

Damon

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:12:01 -0400

From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

Subject: [MR] Crossbow stock rule interpretation

 

Noble friends of the bow,

 

While retyping my TA Marshal class hand-out (lost when my computer blew

up: a lesson there), I was struck by an ambiguity of the following rule:

 

*3.9.2.5* Crossbows with a modern pistol grip, modern rifle or

air-rifle-style stock are not allowed.

 

It is the use of the word "modern" here that made me think. There

certainly were period crossbows with rifle stocks. I have several photos

of German models from the 16th century in some of my books, and here is

a similar model for sale: http://www.a2armory.com/crflpimewe.html . I

interpret this rule to mean the the crossbow is prohibited if the design

is "modern" like this

http://mach5selfdefense.com/images/cb5-crossbow.jpg , but not because of

the existence of a shoulder stock itself.

 

So what is the consensus? Is a stocked crossbow of period design allowed

under this rule?

 

Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir Target Archery Marshal

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:22:24 -0400

From: Siegfried <siegfried at crossbows.biz>

To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: Re: [MR] Crossbow stock rule interpretation

 

Good Lord Mungo, if I may help to shed some light.

 

The situation you are describing, is exactly correct.  That rule was put

into place, during a time of much controversy, and around the same time

as the anti-modern rules for the listfields were created.

 

Where multiple complaints were being heard, about archers using

'obviously modern' "You know it when you see it" styles of crossbows in

Atlantia.

 

Atlantia always likes to hold itself to a higher regard in martial

matters towards period authenticity.  (No 'stick' polearms, appearance

rules, etc).   This was (still is) a problem at Pennsic.  Where if you

attend the champions shoot, of the 'best of the best' of the Known World

in target archery.  You will find numerous archers shooting crossbows

that look almost like your second picture ... or that have 'Air Rifle'

stocks, such as: http://is.gd/5L4Iad

 

The decision was made to disallow these obviously modern stocks from our

fields.

 

You are correct, that there are of course 'period rifle stocks'.  But

all versions of them, including the one you posted (Which actually, I

might argue from my documentation is really a 17th century style, I'd

love to see your documentation there) ... Look remarkably different.

 

Therefore, any 'period crossbow stock'.  OR 'period rifle stock that

happens to have a crossbow prod attached to it' (as we know that

influences were shared) ... are perfectly fine and period.

 

Basically: "If it looks modern, and smells modern.  It's modern"

 

If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to elaborate.  I was

Kingdom TA Marshal when that rule was put into place.

 

Siegfried

 

 

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:26:46 -0400

From: Siegfried <siegfried at crossbows.biz>

To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: Re: [MR] Crossbow stock rule interpretation

 

<< Thank you for the question and this answer. I believe Ansteorra may have

a similar rule. >>

 

They may, a number of kingdoms do.  (And then, there are some kingdoms

that embrace the modern rifle stocks instead)

 

<<< Basically:  "If it looks modern, and smells modern.  It's modern" >>>

 

<< I find this a bit too fuzzy. I'd prefer to see something a bit more

definitive myself. >>

 

Understood, there was much discussion between senior marshals at the

time to try to come up with good wording.  And what you have is the best

we could do.  The problem is, without having 20 pages of pictures, you

just can't do a description justice.

 

Therefore we ended up with the simple 'no modern rifle stocks or air

rifle stocks' aspect.  As to the 99% mark, most people understand that,

and will understand when they see it.

 

To someone who has a 'period style rifle stock' (say, based upon an

existing arquebus, or 16th century crossbow) ... it might be suggested

that they carry a page of documentation (picture of extant example),

just in case any marshal did question it.

 

(And again, that was part of the point, to encourage people doing

'medieval archery', and not using Barnett Commandos they picked up at

Walmart)

 

Siegfried

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org