hunting-msg - 5/17/10 Medieval hunting. NOTE: See also the files: fishing-msg, butchering-msg, hunt-spears-msg, falconry-msg, p-falconry-bib, venison-msg, fowls-a-birds-msg, pig-to-sausag-art, butchering-msg. KEYWORDS: hunting animals medieval falconry deer ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Organization: Penn State University Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:47:24 EDT From: Therion Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Livre de Chasse Lady Elizabeth asks: >I'm looking for help in locating a book: >Livre de Chasse (Book of the Hunt) by Gaston de Foix >Any hints? Hint, hint, m'lady - Gaston III, Phoebus, Count of Foix, 1331-1391. :Phebus des deduiz de la chasse.: Le livre de la chasse, Das Buch von der Jagd : vollst. Faks.-Ausg. im Originalformat des Manuscrit francais 616 d. Bibliotheque nationale, Paris. / Gaston Phoebus ; Kommentar, Marcel Thomas, Francois Avril ; ubersetzt von Eberhard Konig, Pierre Herzog von Brissac ; Transkription, Robert und Andre Bossuat. Graz, Akadem. Druck- u. Verlagsanst., 1976. xviii, 58 p. 36 cm. & facsim. (138 leaves : col. ill. 36 cm.). Series: Codices selecti phototypice impressi, v. 53; 53*. First published in 1507 under title: Phebus des deduiz de la chasse des bestes sauuaiges et des oyseaux de proye. Includes modernized French translation with German commentary. Includes bibliographical references. 1. Hunting -- Early works to 1800. <--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--> Edward, of Norwich, 2d Duke of York, 1373?-1415. The master of game, the oldest English book on hunting. / Edited by Wm. A. and F. Baillie-Grohman. With a foreword by Theodore Roosevelt. . New York, Duffield & Co., 1909; :New York, AMS Press, 1974:. xxix, 302 p. illus. 22 cm. Includes the original text and a modernized version. Includes index. In large part a translation from Count Gaston de Foix's Livre de chasse. Bibliography: p. 268-281. 1. Hunting -- Early works to 1800. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// internet: || Therion Calgate || hzs at psuvm.psu.edu || Mountain Confederation || But where's the Joy || AEthlemearc || these days, Elizabeth? I said what? || Golden Mooselette || \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:32:07 -0400 (EDT) From: ALBAN at delphi.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Chicken & eggs thread > ... was considered a knightly art like carving. In one of the > romances (sorry I can't remember > which just now) the young hero is recognized as having a princely background > by the expertise he shows in dividing > the kill. > Alysoun Alix de Bois responded >>That would be Tristan in the romance _Tristan and Isolt_, when he comes to King Mark of Cornwall's lands. << There's also something from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which I saved from (I think) the Rialto, lo, these many years ago: 31-JAN-1995 From: 6688HILLM at vmsa.csd.mu.edu Here is the aforementioned passage from Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight: And the lord of the land rides late and long, Hunting the barren hind over the broad heath. He had slain such a sum, when the sun sank low, Of does and other deer, as would dizzy one's wits. Then they trooped in together in triumph at last, And the count of the quarry quickly they take. The lords lent a hand with their liegemen many, Picked out the plumpest and put them together And duly dressed the deer, as the deed requires. Some were assigned the assay of the fat: Two fingers'-width fully they found on the leanest. Then they slit the slot open and searched out the paunch, Trimmed it with trencher-knives and tied it up tight. They flayed the fair hide from the legs and trunk, Then broke ipen the belly and laid bare the bowels, Deftly detaching and drawing them forth. And next at the neck the neatly parted The weasand from the windpipe, and cast away the guts. At the shoulders with sharp blades they showed their skill, Boning them from beneath, lest the sides be marred; They breached the broad breast and broke it in twain, And again at the gullet they began with their knives, Cleave down the carcass clear to the breack; Two tender morsels they take from the throat, Then round the inner ribs they rid off a layer And carve out the kidney-fat, close to the spine, Hewing down to the haunchm that all hung together, And held ut up whole, and hacked it free, Ans this they named the numbles, that know such terms of art. They divide the crotch in two, And straightway then they start To cut the backbone through And cleave the trunk apart. With hard strokes they hewed off the head and neck, Then swiftly from the sides they severed the chine, And the corbie's bone they cast on a branch. Then they pierced the plump sides, impales either one With the hock of the hind foot, and hung it aloft, To each person his portion most proper and fit. On a hide of a hind the hounds they fed With the liver and the lights, the leathery paunches, And bread soaked in blood well blended therewith. High horns and shrill set hounds a-baying, Then merrily with their meat they make their way home, Blowing their bugles many a brave blast. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight translation by Marie Borroff copyright 1967, W.W. Norton & Co. I would also like to see the original version, as well as the Tolkien and Gordon versions. If anyone has these and notices any marked differences, I would be interested in conversing about them. margaret malis 6688hillm at vms.csd.mu.edu Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:50:03 EDT From: PhlipinA at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - fetal??? Mordonna22 at aol.com writes: <> Honestly, I don't know. The reason for most falltime hunting seasons around the world, AFAIK, is that the mature animals of this year were ready for harvest on the one hand, and, after the busy agricultural growing and harvesting season, there was a bit of leisure time to stock the pantries with with game before the cold hard winter hit. Phlip Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:22:27 EDTFrom: LrdRas at aol.comSubject: SC - Small game Mordonna22 at aol.com writes:<< Does anyone know if this is a parasite confined to this continent, or may this be a reason for a universal "season"? Is it possible that the people of the era knew of the effects of eating small game killed at this time of the year? >>Certainly hunting was done. Forestry laws and hunting regulations during theMiddle Ages is an entire study in itself. Even circumstantial evidence such aspictures in almanacs and books of hours clearly indicate seasonal hunting.Man's culture was based for several millions of years on hunting. It doesn'ttake much thought to figure out if you kill all the animals this year you'llhave few or none next year. Forestry laws and hunting regulations during theMiddle Ages is an entire study in itself.Certainly hunting was done. . We should remember, however, that pigs,chickens, ducks, geese, and cows were not the only domestic animals raisedduring the Middle Ages. Rabbits, pigeons, and carp must also be recognized.Virtually every monestery and convent had a fish pond and castles and manorhouses were outfitted with pigeon lofts when they were constructed. I wouldsuspect that the vast majority of rabbits consumed were from domestic sources.IMO, the existence of rabbit fever in wild rabbits, if it were even knownabout, would not have have been a major influence in setting rabbit seasons.Rabbits are carriers of several parasites. These parasites tend to proliferateduring warm months with the cycle being completed by late summer. This allboils down to rabbits taken in warm weather are often "filled with worms".That is the reason that I normally take rabbits only in the fall and coolermonths.Ras (spelled A'aql) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:26:22 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Boar Recipe > Adamantius sez: > >FWIW, and taxonomy notwithstanding, the meat of boar is considered > venison... < > > True- pygge would likely mean a castrated male, equivalent to a veal calf. > All wild meat at a certain point in history was considered venison. > > Phlip Learn something new every day. Archaic usage of venison is the meat of a game animal. From the Latin venatus, past participle of venari, to hunt. Now the question is when did the usage change from general game meat to deer meat specifically? Bear Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:51:47 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Boar Recipe Mordonna22 at aol.com wrote: > troy at asan.com writes: > << > FWIW, and taxonomy notwithstanding, the meat of boar is considered > venison... > >> > > By whom? > Mordonna By hunters and, by extension, cooks. Venison can be used to refer to just about any quadruped game animal with red meat, as far as I know. If you look at various recipes you'll see references to "venison of deer or of boar". Adamantius To: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:05:32 -0500 From: rmhowe Subject: Some recent reprints. For those of you who might be interested in such trivial matters Dover has reprinted Henry C. Mercer's Ancient Carpenter's Tools. "Illustrated and Explained, Together with the Implements of the Lumberman, Joiner, and Cabinetmaker in Use in the Eighteenth Century" Dover Publications Inc. 31 East 2nd Street Mineola, N.Y. 11501-3582 They also reprinted Hunting Weapons by Howard L. Blackmore. >From the Middle Ages to Modern Times. 40961-9 pb $16.95 And Stone's Glossary of Armss and Armour. 40726-8 $39.95 Shipping is $5 in the U.S. or 20% of the total overseas. Of course, these folks will catalog you to death. But they reprint some good stuff. Magnus Not to be reposted to newsgroups or the rialto, SCA newsgroups are fine. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:50:17 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Boar Recipe troy at asan.com writes: << FWIW, and taxonomy notwithstanding, the meat of boar is considered > venison... > >> > By whom? > Mordonna >> Merriam-Webster- ven*i*son (noun), plural venisons also venison [Middle English, from Old French veneison hunting, game, from Latin venation-, venatio, from venari to hunt, pursue; akin to Sanskrit vanoti he strives for -- more at WIN] First appeared 14th Century : the edible flesh of a game animal and esp. a deer Ras Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:46:02 -0400 From: harper at idt.net Subject: SC - Meats and flavor Someone -- Christianna? -- was commenting about the possible "taint" of meat by adrenaline at the time of death. I came across an interesting note in Granado: he says that the meat of animals killed by predators is tastier, because the fear they experience causes the blood to "flee" into the heart. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:10:21 +0200 From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: SC - OT - hunting book Hi! O.K. I've posted it to: http://www.thousandeggs.com/jagdbuch.html Click on the title to see the thumbnails. Click on the thumbnails to see the big pictures. I've scanned them at full size. Each original picture takes up 3 scans. I've left some overlap so you can see how the pictures fit together. Some of the pictures are not for the faint-hearted. It is interesting to see women taking part in these hunts. Cindy Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:50:13 +0100 From: TG Subject: Re: SC - Deerhide help (kinda-sorta on topic) << What other inedible parts of the deer can be used >> There is a small bone in the heart (ossicula/ os de corde cervi). In earlier days, it was believed to have many and strong medical forces: against melancholy, nose-bleeding, apostems, heart problems, bad dreams, swimming of the head, unconsciousness, ... There are books with 35 pages about _os de corde cervi_. >From the hide you could use the scrapings together with vinegar (ramenta pellis cervinae): against _ignis sacer_ (?). Well, according to Pliny. For more details, see: Heinrich Marzell: Der Hirsch in der antiken und in der deutschen Volksmedizin. Eine Quellenstudie [The stag/buck in the antique and german folk medicine. A source-based inquiry]. In: Beiträge zur Geschichte der Medizin und der Naturwissenschaften. Festschrift f¸r Rudolph Zaunick zum 70. Geburtstag. Leipzig 1963, 55-63. Tho. From: "Susan Browning" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tips on Redactions Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:14:06 -0800 My take on the pictures is that the hunting was for pleasure, not for food. Most notably, the bears were caged, and in much larger numbers than would be found in the wild. Since bears are solitary animals, they would have been captured in advance, and released into the cage (arena?) for sport killing. If the pictures are accurate, the number of stags would also indicate that the animals were captured in advance, and released into a confined area. Undoubtedly, the animals would have been used for food, but the actual killing was for sport. Eleanor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" To: Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tips on Redactions snip from Cariadoc > Since venison was a game meat, it couldn't be slaughtered the day of, it > had to be taken one or more days before the dinner. The pictures I've > posted from the Jagdbuch http://www.thousandeggs.com/jagdbuch.html show > mass-slaughter of game animals 20 to 50 at a time, & then having to haul > them back to town, many miles away. > > Cindy Renfrow From: "Susan Browning" To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tips on Redactions Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:55:36 -0800 > On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Susan Browning wrote: > > My take on the pictures is that the hunting was for pleasure, not for food. > > Most notably, the bears were caged, and in much larger numbers than would be > > found in the wild. Since bears are solitary animals, they would have been > > captured in advance, and released into the cage (arena?) for sport killing. > > If the pictures are accurate, the number of stags would also indicate that > > the animals were captured in advance, and released into a confined area. > > Undoubtedly, the animals would have been used for food, but the actual > > killing was for sport. > > > > Eleanor > > From what evidence are you drawing this conclusion? No judgements, I'm > just curious. > > Margaret # 11 shows seven bears being killed. Bears being solitary animals, you would not see this number of animals within a days hunting range, even given that one may be a mother with two yearling cubs. #3 and # 2 are not conclusive, as it is unclear as to whether the cages are completely enclosed. # 5 however, indicates a completely enclosed circle, where the deer are being killed. The proportion of male to female indicate that there is more than one herd of animals being hunted. #12 states shows the interior of the hunting seat, which indicates that is it a remote location designed primarily for hunting parties. #4 Is badger edible? Eleanor Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:01:30 -0500 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tips on Redactions The bears were not caged, they, and many of the other critters, were driven into nets or enclosures made of cloth & ropes to make it easier to kill them. It was not an arena, or show put on for amusement, although some of the participants, especially the well-dressed ones, may have been hunting because it was a noble art. But the primary function was to provide meat. Cindy >My take on the pictures is that the hunting was for pleasure, not for food. >Most notably, the bears were caged, and in much larger numbers than would be >found in the wild. Since bears are solitary animals, they would have been >captured in advance, and released into the cage (arena?) for sport killing. >If the pictures are accurate, the number of stags would also indicate that >the animals were captured in advance, and released into a confined area. >Undoubtedly, the animals would have been used for food, but the actual >killing was for sport. > >Eleanor Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:04:21 -0400 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mystery vegetable - not Hello! I beg to differ with the assembled multitude. This picture is from Gaston Phoebus' Book of Hunting. If you look at this page, http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0043.jpg , you'll see roughly what is about to happen next in #45. The huntsmen are preparing to feed the hounds the less-choice entrails of a hart. The hart's hide is spread on the ground & covered with bits of bloody entrails that look remarkably like the lumps being prepared in a bowl by the huntsmen in #45 The stick held by the central man in the green/gold tunic is a "fourche" or fork, wrapped about with the choice numbles for the huntsmen to eat. In #43 the fellow on the right in pink is holding the fourche aloft & away from the dogs. So, IMHO, the lumps are bits of entrails, not veggies, mushrooms, or nuts. Cindy Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:44:35 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Time for the book-- was mystery vegetable - not If anyone has the time, the book is out in English as the title listed below. Perhaps that would offer a better description/illustration so that we can clear this up. The hunting book of Gaston Phoebus : manuscrit fran=E7ais 616, Paris, Biblioth=E8que nationale / Gaston, Count of Foix; Marcel Thomas; Fran=E7ois Avril; Wilhelm Schlag 1998 English Book 138 leaves, 80 p. : col. ill. ; 20 cm. London : Harvey Miller, ISBN: 1872501974 Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis "Cindy M. Renfrow" wrote:> > Hello! I beg to differ with the assembled multitude.> > This picture is from Gaston Phoebus' Book of Hunting. snipped-- So, IMHO, the lumps are bits of entrails, not veggies, mushrooms, or nuts. > > Cindy Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:05:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rotten meat and spices... To: Cooks within the SCA In researching the poaching idea, I ran across this book, which I have just ordered: Manning, Roger B. (Roger Burrow) Hunters and poachers : a social and cultural history of unlawful hunting in England, 1485-1640 / Roger B. Manning. Oxford [England] : Clarendon Press ; New York : Oxford University Press, 1993. xi, 255 p. : ill. ; 25 cm. ISBN: 0198203241 (acid-free paper) It sounds like an interesting read. Huette Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 00:06:39 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: [Sca-cooks] Packing from the Nimatnama To: Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I've been going through the Nimatnama (1495-1505), translation by Norah Titley, and here are a few selected items it recommends for hunting. Sounds like a pretty good packing list. Take plenty of water, provisions, rosewater and camphor... also female champions clad in armour and girt with swords... Take medicine... and all kinds of remedies... Take flowers and palanquins, with slave girls as palanquin bearers... Take musical instruments and singers of songs... Put camphor in shoes and fasten them up... Take along the likeness of the beautiful beloved. Drink from hunting cups. Agreeable women should come... Take along a goatskin to put under the feet. In order to be able to tell the time, take along the wheel of an astrolabe. Take eminently brave men. Take small curtains, take a sickle for use wherever it might be required, take a parasol to provide shade, Take a rug, a chair pillow, and a pusteen (fur jacket)... Take sharpeners There must be a traveling bath and readily available hot water Take along stones and flints to light fires Take beds and bedding and oil Take fish hooks and tackle Take along arrows, crossbows, swords, daggers, wax cloth, protection for light rain... lamps Take along chairs and juice and water and wine and potherbs Do not go near a village that has small chieftains, as it will be fortified Take a traveling throne Take basket of silver, hollow bamboo or needles, armlets, and beds Fold the bedding and make into a bundle Put shops in the hunting jungle and organize goods and the manufacture of everything Organize.. purchasing milk... and the buying of food Fill empty skins with millet straw and use them as floating mattresses Take mattresses Fill a gourd with water in order to make the water cold Do not urinate near the place where wounded wolves may have fallen!!! Do not go out in wind and lightning. Take food for the royal court, galingale, cubebs, date sugar, cassia, round pepper, pepper, water skins, large baskets, fine linen cloth, large kettledrums, straight trumpets, and round trumpets. potherbs of all kinds, vessels of ghee and vegetable oil, rice, mung Put skewers everywhere, so they are readily available when required and can be brought out and food cooked. Put goatskins of water before him and provide him with shade. Take sewing thread, thread for clothes a net for catching fish belts... suitable clothes Rani (Ranvaig) Edited by Mark S. Harris hunting-msg Page 11 of 11