hunt-spears-msg - 10/14/96 Medieval hunting spears. NOTE: See also the files: hunting-msg, falconry-msg, p-falconry-bib, ferrets- msg, fishing-msg, venison-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: arquebus@aol.com (Arquebus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:05:40 -0400 In the spring of this year I was granted the good fortune to travel to Paris, where I beheld many fine old things. Among these were Maximillian tapestries (Flemish - 15th-16th centuries as my memory allows) with very detailed depictions of hunting scenes. Several huntsmen were armed with spears of peculiar appearance, which were consistently depicted amongst the tapestries. The spear heads were broad, leaf shaped blades without ears or quillons. They were affixed to very rough-cut poles (just obtained prior to the hunt?) with bands of material perhaps two fingers wide, spirally wrapped at least half-way down the shafts. At the base of the spear-socket a toggle (wood or horn?) was affixed. It was not clear if these latter acted as a sort of quillon, or whether they actually held the spearpoint on the shaft. Having asked and received opinions from my friends and colleagues here in Andelcrag as to the purpose and construction of these, I am curious as to whether any on the Rialto would care opine or enlighten me further regarding the construction and purposes of these. Regards, Daniel Van Groningen Canton of Three Hills Barony Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom From: jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre Date: 4 Sep 1996 17:51:16 -0400 Being very familiar with the afore mentioned tapestry, the spears in question are commonly refered to as "boar spears".... The toggles that are attached to the sockets served as a stop to prevent said swine from "running up the shaft" and otherwise damaging the soul on the other end of the spear. Boar hunting with a spear is a "traditional" method that was once very common in Europe and is still getting a "foot hold" here in the US...Somehow to this child the idea of a rather large, upset and wounded hog on the other end of a pole simply isn't that good an idea...but be that as it may.. Atar Bakhtar, aka JP Hrisoulas From: arquebus@aol.com (Arquebus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre Date: 5 Sep 1996 09:23:51 -0400 Greetings, Atar, and thank you for your response. I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not discernable in the tapestries, and I am considering building one. This spear system also appeared to me to be a fine way to transport an otherwise bulky hunting weapon, if traveling by horse or carriage. One could carry both steel and spiral wrapping in one's travel-bag, then use the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I guess. Your comment about the extremely upset boar-hog on the end of a stick certainly makes sense! Might be even more unpleasant if one failed to meet the boars charge squarely with one's point! Probably not a solo sport. BTW I am familiar with your fine work (I don't own any....yet) - have you ever made one of these? Best wishes, Daniel Van Groningen From: jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre Date: 6 Sep 1996 08:22:07 -0400 arquebus@aol.com (Arquebus) writes: >I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar >spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these >were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle >tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's >socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not >discernable in the tapestries, and I am considering building one. Oh you asked a not so easy question to answer....there were many ways to attach the head to the haft.. Some were a friction fit into the socket..(the "jammed on" you were refering to), others were friction fit and then pinned...Still there are surviving examples of the toggel acting as a "key" and holding the head in place...There are so many variations on these that it is nearely impossible to say which on is more "correct" or "proper"... >This spear system also appeared to me to be a fine way to transport an >otherwise bulky hunting weapon, if traveling by horse or carriage. One >could carry both steel and spiral wrapping in one's travel-bag, then use >the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting >camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more >shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I >guess. Some of the better spears, like you said could be made to "take down" as I have seen several, but these were very late, circa 1690-1725.... One of the finest examples of a boar spear that I have seen was an exquisite spear, just over two meters in length with a beautiful broad leaf point with integral langets forged into the socket that extened almost 1/3 the way down the shaft. The shaft was riveted throught the langets, making is very secure... The shaft itself was oak, with an octagon cross section on the first hafl of the shaft length and then round for the remaining half...Very well done and very "usable".... If my memory serves Puma, the German cutlery company made a spear very similar to this about 20 years ago...Don't know if they still do, but if I remember correctly they wanted close to $1,000.00 US for it...A bit pricey for my tastes... >Your comment about the extremely upset boar-hog on the end of a stick >certainly makes sense! Might be even more unpleasant if one failed to meet >the boars charge squarely with one's point! Well, when I was ALOT younger, and ALOT more foolhardy than I am now I was a big time pig hunter...Believe me after seeing what these critters are capapble of, using a spear is the LAST weapon I would ever consider as a means to bring one of these to bag... In fact my 50 BMG rifle is what I would consider minimal and my 20mm Solothurn is what I would consider even better yet... I to this day still carry two rather nasty scars on my calves from pig tusks.... > Probably not a solo sport. Got that right....If the pig gets froggy, you will need some help...(remember you don't have to outrun the pig, you only have to outrun the other guy you are with! :) ) >BTW I am familiar with your fine work (I don't own any....yet) - have you >ever made one of these? I have been known to make spears and other sorts of neat things from time to time...If you need any help, just drop a line...forging the socket can be a bit tricky... Atar Bakhtar aka JP Hrisoulas PhD From: david_key@vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre Date: 6 Sep 1996 16:55:59 GMT Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd. In <50mk97$mnu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, arquebus@aol.com (Arquebus) writes: >I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar >spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these >were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle >tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's >socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not >discernable in the tapestries, There are certainly surviving c15th Boar spears which have been forged with a leaf blade and the two side 'wings' attached to the socket. However numerous illustrations of hunting (both in Manuscripts & tapestries) show the 'wings' as a seperate piece of wood bound onto side of the socket of the spearhead. The binding often appears to be made from leather and extends about 1/3 - 1/2 way down the spear shaft (some times rivets/nails are visible where the two ends criss-cross). The shaft is also often depicted as a knobbly stave rather than a clean round/square/hexagonal pole. Both the binding and the grip. >... the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting >camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more >shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I >guess. I would expect that the majority of spear shafts would be made from ash rather than oak ... it is extremely strong and will flex ... also I think it unlikely that a fresh sapling would be used ... the force a boar is likely to hit a man with does not encourage you to use a bendy stick! The trick (if I remember correctly) is to strike the boar between the neck & shoulder .. piercing through to the heart ... if you don't kill it instantly you have a BIG problem. If you are really brave you use a sword. Have a look at Gaston Phoebus (illustrations of boar hunting are in http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures.manuscrits/amanuscrit.htm) or read Edward Duke of Yorks 'Master of Game' or Sir Gwain & the Green Knight ... all will help ... Cheers, Dave Edited by Mark S. Harris hunt-spears-msg