hunt-spears-msg - 10/14/96
Medieval hunting spears.
NOTE: See also the files: hunting-msg, falconry-msg, p-falconry-bib, ferrets-msg, fishing-msg, venison-msg.
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From: arquebus at aol.com (Arquebus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre
Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:05:40 -0400
In the spring of this year I was granted the good fortune to travel to
Paris, where I beheld many fine old things. Among these were Maximillian
tapestries (Flemish - 15th-16th centuries as my memory allows) with very
detailed depictions of hunting scenes. Several huntsmen were armed with
spears of peculiar appearance, which were consistently depicted amongst
the tapestries.
The spear heads were broad, leaf shaped blades without ears or quillons.
They were affixed to very rough-cut poles (just obtained prior to the
hunt?) with bands of material perhaps two fingers wide, spirally wrapped
at least half-way down the shafts. At the base of the spear-socket a
toggle (wood or horn?) was affixed. It was not clear if these latter
acted as a sort of quillon, or whether they actually held the spearpoint
on the shaft. Having asked and received opinions from my friends and
colleagues here in Andelcrag as to the purpose and construction of these,
I am curious as to whether any on the Rialto would care opine or enlighten
me further regarding the construction and purposes of these.
Regards,
Daniel Van Groningen
Canton of Three Hills
Barony Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom
From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre
Date: 4 Sep 1996 17:51:16 -0400
Being very familiar with the afore mentioned tapestry, the spears in
question are commonly refered to as "boar spears".... The toggles that are
attached to the sockets served as a stop to prevent said swine from
"running up the shaft" and otherwise damaging the soul on the other end of
the spear.
Boar hunting with a spear is a "traditional" method that was once very
common in Europe and is still getting a "foot hold" here in the
US...Somehow to this child the idea of a rather large, upset and wounded
hog on the other end of a pole simply isn't that good an idea...but be
that as it may..
Atar Bakhtar,
aka
JP Hrisoulas
From: arquebus at aol.com (Arquebus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre
Date: 5 Sep 1996 09:23:51 -0400
Greetings, Atar, and thank you for your response.
I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar
spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these
were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle
tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's
socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not
discernable in the tapestries, and I am considering building one.
This spear system also appeared to me to be a fine way to transport an
otherwise bulky hunting weapon, if traveling by horse or carriage. One
could carry both steel and spiral wrapping in one's travel-bag, then use
the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting
camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more
shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I
guess.
Your comment about the extremely upset boar-hog on the end of a stick
certainly makes sense! Might be even more unpleasant if one failed to meet
the boars charge squarely with one's point! Probably not a solo sport.
BTW I am familiar with your fine work (I don't own any....yet) - have you
ever made one of these?
Best wishes,
Daniel Van Groningen
From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre
Date: 6 Sep 1996 08:22:07 -0400
arquebus at aol.com (Arquebus) writes:
>I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar
>spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these
>were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle
>tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's
>socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not
>discernable in the tapestries, and I am considering building one.
Oh you asked a not so easy question to answer....there were many ways to
attach the head to the haft..
Some were a friction fit into the socket..(the "jammed on" you were
refering to), others were friction fit and then pinned...Still there are
surviving examples of the toggel acting as a "key" and holding the head in
place...There are so many variations on these that it is nearely
impossible to say which on is more "correct" or "proper"...
>This spear system also appeared to me to be a fine way to transport an
>otherwise bulky hunting weapon, if traveling by horse or carriage. One
>could carry both steel and spiral wrapping in one's travel-bag, then use
>the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting
>camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more
>shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I
>guess.
Some of the better spears, like you said could be made to "take down" as I
have seen several, but these were very late, circa 1690-1725.... One of
the finest examples of a boar spear that I have seen was an exquisite
spear, just over two meters in length with a beautiful broad leaf point
with integral langets forged into the socket that extened almost 1/3 the
way down the shaft. The shaft was riveted throught the langets, making is
very secure...
The shaft itself was oak, with an octagon cross section on the first hafl
of the shaft length and then round for the remaining half...Very well done
and very "usable"....
If my memory serves Puma, the German cutlery company made a spear very
similar to this about 20 years ago...Don't know if they still do, but if I
remember correctly they wanted close to $1,000.00 US for it...A bit pricey
for my tastes...
>Your comment about the extremely upset boar-hog on the end of a stick
>certainly makes sense! Might be even more unpleasant if one failed to meet
>the boars charge squarely with one's point!
Well, when I was ALOT younger, and ALOT more foolhardy than I am now I was
a big time pig hunter...Believe me after seeing what these critters are
capapble of, using a spear is the LAST weapon I would ever consider as a
means to bring one of these to bag... In fact my 50 BMG rifle is what I
would consider minimal and my 20mm Solothurn is what I would consider even
better yet... I to this day still carry two rather nasty scars on my
calves from pig tusks....
> Probably not a solo sport.
Got that right....If the pig gets froggy, you will need some
help...(remember you don't have to outrun the pig, you only have to outrun
the other guy you are with! :) )
>BTW I am familiar with your fine work (I don't own any....yet) - have you
>ever made one of these?
I have been known to make spears and other sorts of neat things from time
to time...If you need any help, just drop a line...forging the socket can
be a bit tricky...
Atar Bakhtar
aka
JP Hrisoulas PhD
From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hunting Spears - Tapestries at Louvre
Date: 6 Sep 1996 16:55:59 GMT
Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd.
In <50mk97$mnu at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, arquebus at aol.com (Arquebus) writes:
>I can see how this toggle could act as a stopper, or quillon on a boar
>spear, though a fairly small one for my tastes. I still wonder how these
>were affixed - was the spearhead simply jammed on, and the wrap-and-toggle
>tied on at the base, did it form a "T" thru a hole in the spearhead's
>socket, or did it serve to reinforce a knot ? Such fine details were not
>discernable in the tapestries,
There are certainly surviving c15th Boar spears which have been forged with
a leaf blade and the two side 'wings' attached to the socket. However
numerous illustrations of hunting (both in Manuscripts & tapestries) show
the 'wings' as a seperate piece of wood bound onto side of the socket of
the spearhead. The binding often appears to be made from leather and
extends about 1/3 - 1/2 way down the spear shaft (some times rivets/nails
are visible where the two ends criss-cross). The shaft is also often depicted
as a knobbly stave rather than a clean round/square/hexagonal pole.
Both the binding and the grip.
>... the spearhead to cut a strong green sapling upon arrival at the hunting
>camp. The thick sapling would bend rather than break, and perhaps be more
>shock absorbing than old oak, as well. I will find out when I build one, I
>guess.
I would expect that the majority of spear shafts would be made from ash
rather than oak ... it is extremely strong and will flex ... also I think it
unlikely that a fresh sapling would be used ... the force a boar is likely to
hit a man with does not encourage you to use a bendy stick! The trick
(if I remember correctly) is to strike the boar between the neck & shoulder
.. piercing through to the heart ... if you don't kill it instantly you have a BIG problem.
If you are really brave you use a sword.
Have a look at Gaston Phoebus (illustrations of boar hunting are in
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures.manuscrits/amanuscrit.htm) or read
Edward Duke of Yorks 'Master of Game' or Sir Gwain & the Green
Knight ... all will help ...
Cheers,
Dave
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