horses-msg - 9/25/04
Medieval horses. Horses in the SCA. Horse barding.
NOTE: See also the files: hunting-msg, horse-racing-msg, chivalry-msg, Chivalry-art, knighthood-msg, carts-msg, Mongols-msg, saddles-msg, Horse-n-t-MA-art, horses-lnks.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Date: 3 Oct 90 19:34:18 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
As you may or may not know, the East Kingdom has an Equestrian
Guild. My roommate and I have volunteered to try to put together
some sort of equestrian display/event for the Stonemarche Solstice
event next summer. I'm hoping that perhaps there are others on the
Rialto who have either seen or been part of SCA-sponsored equestrian
events in the past, and offer us suggestions/warnings/advice, etc.
I promise not to be offended at any apparently too-obvious advice,
since both of us are still quite new to the SCA, and haven't seen a
lot of events use as examples for what is/isn't appropriate.
Of course, we'd be even happier to hear from any horse-owning SCA
people in NH or the surrounding states who'd like to be part of
whatever goes on too. (People from further away are welcome too,
of course, but I would be amazed to see anyone want to bring a horse
to an event further than a couple of hundred miles.)
We do have a few guidelines, based on considerations of safety and
available resources. JOUSTING BETWEEN TWO OR MORE FIGHTERS IS
OUT OF THE QUESTION. I'm sure there are insurance considerations
that would prevent it, and there is no existing system of qualifying
people for it, as there is with traditionaly SCA fighting. The
likelihood of participants getting hurt is just TOO high. Falling
off a horse hurts, even when you land on something soft, and there
is always the possibility, however small, of the horse kicking you
after you fall. (Not that they'd WANT to, but accidents happen).
And the whole point of jousting is to unseat at least one of the
participants. Besides that, we have at present only two riders, and
neither of us has any inclination to try this. Also only one of
our horses is even vaguely suitable, physically or temperamentally.
We are also NOT considering permitting anyone to be an active
participant in any of this who doesn't provide their own horse.
There are just too many liability issues involved, and besides
that, neither of our horses is particularly suitable for an
inexperienced rider.
We have been considering the possibility of trying to organize some
sort of ring jousting exhibition, or possibly a competition if we
get a few more riders firmly committed beforehand. For this we
would mount a largish (8-12" diameter) ring on a post, which the
rider would attempt to put his/her lance through. The ring would
be attached to the post by a fairly fragile thread, so that it would
break trivially if the rider successfully puts the lance through
it. This is a lot harder than it looks.
Our background is primarily in dressage, which had its beginnings
during the 11th and 12th centuries. Again, it would be nice if we
had more than 2 horses doing this. A solo-performance is only going
to be of real interest to the general audience only if it involves
maneuvers that are years beyond what either we or our horses are
capable of at the moment. It takes a long time to get a horse and
rider to the point of performing the maneuvers you associate with
things like the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. However, if we had
maybe half-a-dozen people doing a pattern of lower-level work
together, that might be of more general interest.
We're also open to any other suggestions for period equestrian
activities that come to mind. Suggestions for research sources
would also be most welcome.
Kathy
PS if you reply via e-mail, use the address from the signature.
I'm still debugging the news installation here, and the
header may not be reliable.
----------------------------------------------------------
Kathryn L. Smith System Administrator
MIT Lincoln Laboratories UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
Lexington, MA ARPANET: kathy at XN.LL.MIT.EDU
From: joltes at husc9.harvard.edu (Richard Joltes)
Date: 4 Oct 90 16:23:13 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center Cambridge, MA
kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) writes:
[lines concerning the existance of the EK Equestrian guild deleted]
>We do have a few guidelines, based on considerations of safety and
>available resources. JOUSTING BETWEEN TWO OR MORE FIGHTERS IS
>OUT OF THE QUESTION. I'm sure there are insurance considerations
>that would prevent it, and there is no existing system of qualifying
>people for it, as there is with traditionaly SCA fighting. The
>likelihood of participants getting hurt is just TOO high. Falling
>off a horse hurts, even when you land on something soft, and there
>is always the possibility, however small, of the horse kicking you
>after you fall. (Not that they'd WANT to, but accidents happen).
>And the whole point of jousting is to unseat at least one of the
>participants. Besides that, we have at present only two riders, and
>neither of us has any inclination to try this. Also only one of
>our horses is even vaguely suitable, physically or temperamentally.
On several occasions a few of us have tried `jousting' by tucking a polearm
under one arm (like a lance would be held) and `galloping' together by jogging
at a medium pace. All blows were aimed for the body only. The impact was
sufficient to convince me that I had better things to do, especially since the
harness I wear isn't designed for the joust (8 oz. leather with internal lexan
brigandine just doesn't make it for lance contact :-} ). Jousting harness was
(especially later in period) of a very different calibre than foot or other
combat harness. Usually the helm was attached directly to the breastplate,
thus allowing no head movement, so that if a stray lance shot hit the helm the
recipient's neck would not be snapped. The gauge of the steel was heavier to
resist the impact, the shoulders were more heavily protected, and often the gap
between the left arm and chest was covered with a shield (sometimes attached
directly to the breastplate) that was curved to deflect lance blows. Unless
we're willing to start making stuff of this type NO ONE should try jousting.
Also there is the fact that the horses need to be trained especially for the
joust (if nothing else so that they can deal with having an 18-foot piece of
wood bobbing past their eyes). And the horse really needs to be protected so
that a glance or other accident would not endanger the animal. Thus the need
for barding, which adds even more cost to the activity.
I know there is a group (not affiliated with the SCA) that holds an annual
jousting event at King's Mountain, Virginia. I don't have any details, but
maybe some of the Atlantians on the net can provide some. The event is
(sadly) held at just about the same time as Pennsic.
> Kathy
Lord Alexander "Tam" Cullinan joltes at husc9.harvard.edu
Canton of the Towers, East Kingdom
Squire to Sir Emeric Wendel the Diversified
Ladies' Champion of Carolingia
Date: 5 Oct 90 14:53:28 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Greetings to all Gentles on the Rialto from Eleanor de Wardon, of the
Shire of Isenfir in the Kingdom of Atlantia.
In regards to what kind of horse was used as a destrier (for jousting),
many historians believe that the closest modern breed is the Shire.
The Shire is the largest breed--some individuals weigh 2,000 pounds.
Shires are generally larger than Clydesdales--and if you have ever seen
one of the Budweiser Clydesdales "up close and personal", you know that
that is pretty big! One useful reference tool is a book called
"The Standard Book of Horses" which lists the description and history of
all horse breeds, including many that we in the U.S. tend to think of
not as breeds, but as types.
Eleanor de Wardon
(m.ka. Jean Cooper)
jlc5f at virginia.edu
From: CONS.ELF at AIDA.CSD.UU.SE ("]ke Eldberg")
Date: 6 Oct 90 05:47:21 GMT
Greetings from William de Corbie!
Kathryn Smith asked about equestrian things, and others have since
commented. There seems to be a consensus that jousting man-to-man is
out of the question.
Let me tell you about the equestrian groups here in Europe. There are many,
both hobbyists and professional show companies. They have tournaments, and
jousting, too. A tournament consists of competitions in several equestrian
arts:
1. The quintain (sp?): the knights ride with their lances against a flat
target that looks like a torso and is holding a morning star. When the
target is hit, it swings around and the knight risks getting hit by the
morning star if he isn't quick enough.
2. Turk heads: the knights ride along the list and attempt to spear "Turk
heads" which lie on the grounds. The "heads" are usually head-sized
pieces of foam or similar material.
3. Rings: six small rings are hung from "gallows" around the field. The
knights ride around and try to pick as many as possible on the lance.
4. Jousting: This is NOT the sort of jousting you see in movies. The lances
are not held braced under the arm, but in the hand and supported only
with the force of the arm, held a couple of inches out from the body.
The object is to get a clean hit on the opponent's shield. They never
aim for the body or the head. It is very rare that anyone is thrown from
the saddle.
The armour used is mostly fake knitted chainmail with some padding under,
and plastic helmets that look exactly like steel. Lances are ca. one inch
round wood with a sort of 3-inch plastic ball on the tip. Shields are
plywood. All in all, this is a simulated jousting that looks very good
without being very dangerous at all.
William de Corbie
From: dlc at hpfcda.HP.COM (Dennis Clark)
Date: 5 Oct 90 14:19:43 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO
/ kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) / writes:
>As you may or may not know, the East Kingdom has an Equestrian
>Guild. My roommate and I have volunteered to try to put together
>some sort of equestrian display/event for the Stonemarche Solstice
>event next summer. I'm hoping that perhaps there are others on the
>Rialto who have either seen or been part of SCA-sponsored equestrian
>events in the past, and offer us suggestions/warnings/advice, etc.
>I promise not to be offended at any apparently too-obvious advice,
>since both of us are still quite new to the SCA, and haven't seen a
>lot of events use as examples for what is/isn't appropriate.
Ring jousting is very difficult and fun to watch, I'm not sure as to the
periodness of it though. Another thought IS period (ask the Monguls), you
may want to try Tent-Pegging; this is the attempt to remove wooden tent stakes
set out at increasingly shorter intervals with a sword. As you can guess,
its rather difficult :^) Possibly a best barding or barding/rider contest?
Just some ideas...
Kevin MacKinnon - Outlands
Golf Carts vs Horses
15 Jun 92
From: 71220.3051 at compuserve.COM ("John F. Macpherson, Jr.")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet
Good Gentles,
I have read with interest (and a small amount of amusement) the postings re:
Golf Carts at Pennsic and the suggestions of several gentles that Horse
Patrols may be a "better alternative." Granted, horse patrols would be
better for keeping the period atmosphere, but golf carts are infinitly
preferable. Compare the "care & feeding" requirements of a fleet of 10 carts
vs 10 horses.
----------
Carts:
Food: several gallons of gas each per day (or several hours of electricity
for battery charging).
Housing: tarps to cover "out of service" carts are sufficient.
Bedding: not needed.
By-products: none to speak of.
Maintenance: minimal - if any, easily handled by anyone with moderate
mechanical skills (if ya can fix a lawn mower, ya can probably fix
a cart!).
Skilled operators: not needed - almost *anybody* can drive a golf cart
safely.
----------
Horses:
Food: 5 - 10 pounds of grain per horse per day, plus a bale or so of good
hay per horse per day. For 10 horses this = 50 - 100 # grain + 10 bales
hay *DAILY*. (Hay requirement less IF good pasture available) Also,
at least 10 - 15 GALLONS of water per horse, per day (or access to a
water trough)
Housing: A stable, or at least a fenced area required. Not to mention an
enclosed, covered, *dry*, *rodent-proof* area for feed and equipment
storage, PLUS storage for all the grooming and mucking-out tools, etc.
Bedding: Straw or wood chips/shavings. needs cleaning 2x daily, total
replacement of bedding at least every other day (daily is better).
By-products: An average horse can produce more than 20 pounds of manure daily,
and several gallons of urine. The urine sort of disposes of itself by
soaking into the ground, but the manure must be removed from wherever it
lands. 10 horses at 20# daily x 7 days = 1,400 pounds of manure to be
removed from the site!
Maintenance: A vet and/or farrier (horse-shoer) should be available for
"emergency repairs." Also need "stable hands" for the mucking out,
feeding, watering, grooming, etc.
Skilled operators: *IMPERATIVE* Imagine, if you will, a spooked horse (with
an un-skilled rider), of approx. 1,000 pounds in weight, running out
of control thru an encampment.... not a pretty sight is it??
Not to mention the problem of locating enough well-trained horses and riders
to mount an effective patrol. How many of you out there have your own
horse(s), are willing to trailer or otherwise ship it to Pennsic *and* are
going to volunteer to ride patrol *every single day*?? If *you* were the
owner of a horse, would you allow someone else to ride it on patrol?? *I
wouldn't!*
Just as a side note, YES, I have a horse, and NO, I am *not* a good enough
rider (yet) to consider riding patrol at Pennsic.
As I said earlier, anyone can drive a golf cart, skilled horses and riders
are a bit harder to find.
Just my $0.02 worth. BTW, I had reason to be grateful for the carts at
Pennsic17 a few years ago... I had a mechanical problem with my artifical
leg, easily fixed by tools *in my tent on the other side of the site* but
the problem made it *impossible* to walk *any* distance. A security person
in a cart drove me to my encampment and assisted me to my tent, whereupon I
repaired my leg and was once again mobile.
P.S. If anyone would like to discuss the use of horses in the SCA and/or in
period, I'd be HAPPY to do so! <grin>
--------------------
Ian Mhic-a-Phersoin (Shire of Highland Foorde, Kingdom of Atlantia)
Owner of Comtesse, a 9 year old Percheron Mare, and Sol de Noir, a 2 week
old Spanish-Norman (Percheron/Andalusian cross) colt.
Internet: 71220.3051 at compuserve.com
Golf Carts vs Horses
15 Jun 92
From: ewright at convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Ian Mhic-a-Phersoin (Shire of Highland Foorde, Kingdom of Atlantia) writes:
>Granted, horse patrols would be better for keeping the period atmosphere,
>but golf carts are infinitely preferable. Compare the "care & feeding"
>requirements of a fleet of 10 carts vs 10 horses.
As I said before, I don't believe a horse patrol would be practical,
however, I think your case is overstated. So, for the sake of argument...
>Maintenance: minimal - if any, easily handled by anyone with moderate
> mechanical skills (if ya can fix a lawn mower, ya can probably fix
> a cart!).
Leaving aside the fact that there are many people who can't fix a lawn
mower, how many people could fix a lawn mower or a golf cart with the
supplies they're likely to have on hand at Pennsic? You can't do
*everything* with duct tape. :-)
>Skilled operators: not needed - almost *anybody* can drive a golf cart
> safely.
I would agree if you hadn't added the word "safely." At TFYC there was
one particular individual who was widely considered to be a menace in a
golf cart. A well-behaved horse will not deliberately walk into people
or obstacles. A golf cart doesn't care.
>Horses:
>Food:
>Housing:
>Bedding:
>By-products:
Yes, all of these would be real problems. The logistics of providing
them is what I think makes the project un-doable. I don't agree that
water would be a problem, though. 10-15 gallons per day per animal
would be a drop in the bucket compared to what's already consumed at
Pennsic.
>Maintenance: A vet and/or farrier (horse-shoer) should be available for
> "emergency repairs."
The SCA probably has more blacksmiths per capita than any other group
and many of them probably know how to shoe a horse. As far as a vet is
concerned, how many stables have a vet on hand (as opposed to on call)?
You'd want to arrange for a vet to show up if you needed him, of course,
but locating a good large-animal practitioner should be no problem in
Pennsylvania farm country.
>Skilled operators: *IMPERATIVE* Imagine, if you will, a spooked horse (with
> an un-skilled rider), of approx. 1,000 pounds in weight, running out
> of control thru an encampment.... not a pretty sight is it??
See previous comment about golf-cart operators.
>Not to mention the problem of locating enough well-trained horses and riders
>to mount an effective patrol. How many of you out there have your own
>horse(s), are willing to trailer or otherwise ship it to Pennsic *and* are
>going to volunteer to ride patrol *every single day*?? If *you* were the
>owner of a horse, would you allow someone else to ride it on patrol?? *I
>wouldn't!*
Most or all of the horses would have to be rentals. I assume the same
is true of golf carts.
I don't believe that insurance and site regulations would be a show-stopper,
as other people stated. If the other problems could be solved, those things
could be negotiated.
-- Nicholas van Leyden
Golf Carts vs Horses
16 Jun 92 j
From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)