fishing-msg - 1/12/08 Medieval fishing. Fish ponds. fish hooks, fishing equipment. NOTE: See also the files: fish-msg, seafood-msg, stockfish-msg, feasts-fish-msg, eels-msg, sauces-msg, pickled-foods-msg, fish-pies-msg, salmon-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:04:46 GMT From: "Kirsten Garner at Archaeology" <KGARNER at hsy1.ssc.ed.ac.uk> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Fishponds A while back someone posted here asking about medieval fishponds. I recently came across a couple of interesting sources and thought I would post them here in case she is still interested. :) Aston, M (ed) 1988, Medieval Fish, Fisheries and Fishponds in England. BAR (British Archaeological Reports) British Series 182, vol 1 and 2. Oxford. Currie, CK, 1990, 'Fishponds as Garden Features c. 1550-1750' in Garden History, 18 no. 1, p 22-46 Julian Subject: Re: ANST - Archaeological Fishhooks Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 05:45:08 MST From: KTMC <ktmc at icok.net> To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Marc Carlson wrote: > I'm sorry to bother everyone with this, but I've been asked to > document metal fish hooks in the Middle Ages. At this time, I can > not. Anyone have a source? > > Marc/Diarmaid Marc/Diarmaid posted concerning metal fish hooks in the Middle Ages. I have a book at home I'll get and make available. It's a translation of a 15th century treatise on angling. You may be intersted, Diarmaid, in knowing that they were made from (I don't have the book with me,) a shoe-maker's needle (or something closely named) and worked with an anvil and forge. I was thinking of doing a Kingdom A&S entry on some period flies and I was thinking of contacting YOU to see how I could get some of the needles. I'll get the book and get back with you. Valstarr Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:38:11 -0400 From: Bill Kenton <bkenton at one.net> To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu Subject: New A&S webpage A new webpage has emerged. A medieval angling page has surfaced. The idea of a medieval angling (fishing) has been floating around between 2 Laurels, Priscilla and Creador, 1 apprentice-Breac, and myself. Well, after a few months of playing around with it I've come to the conclusion that I can take it no farther without opening it up to the populace for their opinions, suggestions, etc. It can be found at http://w3.one.net/~bkenton/fishing Once the initial suggesyions are gone through and added as seen fit, it may be moved over to the midrealm server. I haven't decided that yet. But I'd like this to be an interkingdom site, and would appreciate links to it from wherever. I'm hoping this lists gets to many kingdom A&S people to save me from tracking down emails to each and every MOAS. I am seeking one thing, though, that I'd like to add that perhaps you can help me with. I'd like to collect a bunch of period fish recipes and have a recipe section on the page. YIS, Liam O'Shea Barony of Fenix Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:05:41 +0200 From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> Subject: SC - Squary scad enquiry The OED has two quotations for the expression in question; the latter suggests that it was a kind of flat fish: "squary (...) Square-shaped; squarish. 1602 Carew Cornwall 35 Some gutted and kept in pickle, as the lesser Whitings, Pollocks, Eeles, and Squarie Scads. Ibid. 320 Of flat [fish there are] Brets, Turbets, Dories, Squary Scad, Seale, Tunny, and many others. (...)" Perhaps these books could be useful for further enquiry: - -- Hoffmann, R.C.: Fishers' craft and lettered art. Tracts on fishing from the end of the Middle Ages. Toronto (Univ. of Toronto Press) 1997. - -- Westwood, Th./ Satchell, Th.: Bibliotheca piscatoria. A catalogue of books on angling, the fisheries and fish-culture (...). London 1883. Thomas Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:23:53 -0400 From: Gaylin <iasmin at home.com> Subject: SC - Garum and Piscinae So this book I've picked up because of my addiction. To books, that is. Found it on remainder and just *had* to buy it. You know how you get that feeling sometimes? The one that says "I know this is absolutely necessary, but I don't know why"? That's why I bought it. Here's the book: Higginbotham, James. (1997). Piscinae: Artificial Fishponds in Roman Italy. Chapel Hill, NC: The University of North Carolina Press. ISBN: 0-8078-2329-5 [Ed. Note: I got this on remainder from Edward R. Hamilton Booksellers for about 14$US. You might be able to find it cheaper elsewhere.] As I was reading along this morning, I discovered something that people here might find interesting about garum production, including some references that I don't believe anyone has mentioned before. This is going to be a long one, so stay with me and accept my forgiveness for the cross-posting. In the introduction, while discussing the modern scholarship done on ancient piscinae (fishponds) Higginbottom writes: "Since Jacono [Ed.: Luigi Jacono's study on Naples seaside ruins of piscinae], the study of Roman pisciculture has progressed along several paths. The ancient fishing industry, involving the manufacture and trade of processed fish products such as garum, has received the lion's share of attention (5). These studies have focused on tanks and complexes in Spain, southern France, and North Africa. Though garum production certainly took place in Italy, the bulk of this trade emanated from the western provinces (6)". [page 2] Here are the footnotes associated with the text, in which I've separated out each reference to make it easier to read. I think many of you will find these interesting: (5) M. Ponsich and M. Tarradell, _Garum et industries antiques de salaison dans la Mditerrane occidentale_ (Pariis 1965); O. Da Veiga Ferreira, "Algunas consideracoes sobre as fabricas de conservas de peixed antiquidade encontradas em Portugal, " _Archivo de Beja_ 23-24 (1966-67) 123-34; R. Sanquer and P. Galliou, "Garum, sel et salaisons en Armorique gallo-romaine," _Gallia_ 30 (1972) 199-223; R.I. Curtis, _Garum and Salsamenta: Production and Commerce in Materia Medica_ (Leiden 1991); J. C. Edmondson, _Two Industries in Roman Lusitania: Mining and Garum Production, BAR International Series, 362 (Oxford 1987); M. Ponsich, _Asceite de oliva y salazones de pescado: Factores geo-econmicos de Btica y Tingitania_ (Madrid 1988). (6) For evidence of Italian production, see R. I. Curtis, "A. Umbricius Scaurus of Pompeii, " in _Studia Pompeiana et Classica in Honor of Wilhelmina F. Jashemski 1_ (New Rochelle, N.Y. 1988) 19-49, and _Garum and Salsameta_ (ibid.) 85-96. Fish sauce production is hypothesized at Cosa on the basis of rather tenuous evidence; see A. M. McCann, J. Bourgeois, E. K. Gazda, J. P. Oleson, and E. L. Will, _The Roman Port and Fishery of Cosa_ (Princeton 1987) 340-41. In his chapter on "Fishponds as Emblems of Social Status", the author also writes: There was, however, great profit in the production of preserved fish and processed fish products. According to the literary record, several sites in Italy were known for the production of garum, liquamen, allec, muria, and other processed fish products. (6) And again the footnote: (6) _RE_ 8 (1912) 841-49, s.v. Garum (R. Zahn): P. Grimal and T. Monod, "Sur le vritable nature du 'garum,'" _REA_ 54 (1952) 27-38; C. Jardin "Garum et sauces de poisson de l'antiguit," _RStlig 27 (1961) 70-96; T. H. Corcoran, "Roman Fish Sauces," _CJ_ 58 (1963) 204-10; R.I. Curtis, "In Defense of Garum," CJ 78 (1983) 232-40; R.I. Curtis, "Salted Fish Products in Ancient Medicine," _Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences_ 39 (1984) 430-35; R.I. Curtis, _Garum and Salsamenta: Production and Commerce in Materia Medica_ (Leiden 1991). The abbreviations of note: RStLig is "Rivista di studi liguri"; CJ is "Classical Journal"; and RE is A. Pauly and G. Wissowa's "Real- Encyclop 0die de klassishen Altertumswissenschaft". My apologies for the bandwidth, again, but I'm certain at least someone will find some use in these references considering the debate that regularly occurs about acceptable substitutes for garum and liquamen in the recipes we research. If you need copies of this information from the book itself, let me know and we'll work something out. Jasmine Iasmin "Yes, I'm Addicted" de Cordoba, iasmin at home.com AOL AIM: IasminDeCordoba PS: Typos are most likely my own, especially on the non-English articles. Also, apologies to those of you who get a little garbage in the message from the accents and umlauts. Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:45:30 -0500 From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net> To: "- Gregory Blount - A&S. Food, Music, Brewing, and Dance SCA Pages (SCA) Greg Lindahl" <lindahl at pbm.com> Subject: Webpages http://w3.one.net/~bkenton/fishing Medieval Angling Page Magnus Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:37:56 -0500 From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at morganco.net> Subject: SC - Fw: [Mid] Fishing page moved Since catching fish is an important part of cooking them, I thought some of you on Cook's List might be interested ;-) Phlip >NEW HOME FOR THE PERIOD FISHING PAGE IS: >www.farreaches.org/fishing From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: period fly fishing Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:48:54 -0700 Organization: University of California, Berkeley Ghelena661 wrote: > On the subject of period fly fishing, I would like to get my hands on > that TI issue. > > I would like to do a little fishing at Pennsic, since I camp right on the > lake i can fish from my pavilion if I wanted to. > > I am a lacemaker, so I suspect I can tie a fly ok. I know where to get > fishhooks that are period. > > If any one has done any period fishing, please sound out! I haven't actually done any period fishing, but I can give you a few leads on the research end. There are a number of surviving treatises on fishing from the medieval period and earlier. Several from the 15th and 16th century are published in "The Fishers' Craft & Lettered Art: Tracts on Fishing from the End of the Middle Ages" (ed. Richard C. Hoffmann, University of Toronto Press, 1997). I've also seen a book entitled something like "Fishing in the Ancient World", which I believe is more of a work about fishing history rather than sources (in translation), although I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could find some practical fishing information in Pliny. Hoffmann's text includes all sorts of specific instructions on both live and prepared baits, as well as feather-based flies. Here's a sample (in translation): "as soon as the brooks become small and clear, like in May, whether it is the first of the month or the second, then see to it to put 'stone bait' on the feathered hook which should be tied with yellow silk and with pinkish-colored silk around the 'heart' and with a black one mixed around the 'heart'. The feather should be speckled light. But if the water is dark, then the feathers should be that much the lighter, together with blackish feathering. If it is high water, then the feathering should be blackish with light brown mixed among it, fished high up in running water." There are dozens of fly-tying instructions, including some for mimicking particular species of flies. Tangwystyl From: Ghelena661 at aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:53:54 EDT Subject: Re: period fly fishing To: stefan at texas.net Fish hooks are sold by either Smoke and Fire, or James Townsend. They are 3 for $5 and are made by a blacksmith. These hooks have to be tied to the line. Fish hooks have a long and venerated history, and many aspects of fishing (such as hooks) experienced little change until recently with the introduction of metals like steel and titanium, and of course, the introduction of the reel. May your threads never tangle, Roxanne Greenstreet From: Ghelena661 at aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:24:24 EDT Subject: Re: period fly fishing To: stefan at texas.net I have been conversing with various fisher folk on this subject. Master Brok (Atlantian Laurel for blacksmithing) has done a lot of fly fishing in the past, and has gone so far as to make his own rods, smith his own hooks and, braid his own string as well as tie the flies. I don't know if I am up to all that! I understand from another Laurel (Master Finnr, a Viking dude) that the poles used in period had a still 'handle' section, a more flexible mid section, and a rather whippy willow end. Like modern fly fishing, the rod is whipped in the air and then somehow sent the goodly distance it needs to go to get into the water away from the bank. I think this is a little ambitious for a beginner. I intend to tie some flies on my authentic hooks and then simply pole fish. I am already scavenging sticks that will be useful in the cause of a good pole. I will then work on flie tying. I understand this is a bit of an art in itself. May your threads never tangle, Roxanne Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:41:38 -0400 From: margali <margali at 99main.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian fish in oil spreads Yes, there were pisciniae shown on a number of blueprints of roman villas in a book on roman architecture I have. There was quite a complex of them at the Villa of Tiberius on Capri. IIRC there was also a mention of a piscina run near rome for the markets of rome, and private piscinae in the peristyle gardens in Rome. There is a private piscina in the Villa of the Mysteries in Pompeii. margali [wel, rob promised to build our retirement home to suit, and he didn't specifically exclude a roman villa rustica ;-)] Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:37:04 +0200 From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian fish in oil spreads "Pixel, Queen of Cats" schrieb: > But you don't kill the fish before you send it to Florence. You put it, > still alive, in a barrel of water with a bunch of other living fish, and > send it on a cart. > > Or you have fishponds. Does anybody know whether they used fishponds in > Italy the same way they did in England and France? I don't know too much about the details, but as far as I know Italian fishponds were usually stone or brick structures, and sometimes housed seawater fish. They were definitely known from Roman times onwards (quite fashionable in Augustan times) and used in medieval Italy. However, as fish was a high-status food in Antiquity but a low-status item in Lombard and later medieval Italy, it is unlikely (and definitely not provable) that the elaborate Roman tradition continued in wide use. Got it: Massimo Montanari, 'la fame e l'abbondanza' (German translation Beck 1993), p. 48 (chapter 8, towards the middle): fishponds built in swamps in Lombard Italy and later. Unfortunately, no more than that. THese were likely freshwater and very similar to our local ones. Volker From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk> To: "'SCA Cookslist'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:31:06 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish ponds WAS Italian fish in oil spreads Or you have fishponds. Does anybody know whether they used fishponds in Italy the same way they did in England and France? Margaret FitzWilliam As the fishpond as used in England and France was introduced by the Romans (pisciniae), I would say yes. The Seafood chapter in C. Anne Wilson's "Food and Drink in Britain" has a fascinating section which traces the evolution of these. Lucrezia Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:30:04 +0200 From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] online glossary: piscinae piscina (Latin) = a fish pond, used to ensure a supply of fish for the kitchen. -- Higginbotham, J.: Piscinae. Artificial fishponds in Roman Italy. Chapel Hill, NC 1997. Th. Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:48:21 -0400 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] fish consumption There are a number of recipes but you might want to look at these studies and/or collections of papers first-- Medieval fish, fisheries, and fishponds in England / by Aston, Michael. Oxford, England : B.A.R., 1988 2 v. (ix, 484 p.) ill. English Series: BAR British series ;; 182; Standard No: ISBN: 0860545091 (set); LCCN: 88-138066 Inland fisheries in medieval Yorkshire, 1066-1300 / by McDonnell, J. Publication: [York, North Yorkshire] : University of York, Borthwick Institute of Historical Research, 1981 42 p. ill. English Series: Borthwick papers ;; no. 60; Standard No: LCCN: 82-191154 The tidal Thames : the history of a river and its fishes / by Wheeler, Alwyne C. London ; Boston : Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1979 x, 228 p. ill. ; English Standard No: ISBN: 0710002009 :; LCCN: 79-40460 Fish : food from the waters / edited by Walker, Harlan. Oxford Symposium on Food and Cooke (1997) Totnes, UK : Prospect Books, 1998 335 p. ill., maps ; English Standard No: ISBN: 0907325890 You may have seen this one already-- De Friese palingaken / by Zetzema, Jan. Leeuwarden : De Tille, 1976 160 p., [1] leaf of plates : p., ill. Dutch Series: [Utjeften] - Fryske Akademy ;; nr. 500; Variation: Fryske Akademy (Series) ;; nr. 500. Standard No: ISBN: 9070010461 :; LCCN: 77-463633 These cookbooks might help: Jansen-Sieben, R./ van der Molen-Willebrands, M. (Hg.): Een notabel boecxken van cokeryen. Het eerste gedrukte nederlandstalige kookboek circa 1514 uitgeven te Brussel door Thomas vander Noot. Bezorgt en van commentaar voorzien. Amsterdam 1994. Het eerste nederlandsche gedrukte kookboek (Brussel, Thomas von der Noot, c. 1510). Facsimile-uitgave naar het eenig bekende exemplaar in de Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, M=FCnchen. 's-Gravenhage: Martinus Nijhoff 1925. Een notabel boecxken van cokeryen. Thomas vander Noot, Brussel, omstreeks 1514. Fotografische herdruk gebaseerd op de uitgave van Martinus Nijhoff, Den Haag, 1925. Amsterdam 1994. Cockx-Indestege, E. (Hg.): Eenen Nyeuwen Coock Boeck. Kookboek samengesteld door Gheeraert Vorselman en gedrukt te Antwerpen in 1560. Uitgegeven en van Commentaar voorzien door Elly Cockx-Indestege. Wiesbaden 1971. Braekman, W.L.: Medische en technische mittelnederlandse Recepten. Een tweede bijdrage tot de geschiedenis von de vakliteratur in de Nederlanden. Gent 1975. This should provide you with some references to work with and the bibliographies given in the books should lead you to more materials on the subject. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Ides Boone wrote: snipped > I am working as an archaeozoologist in Belgium. I had to study sieved > samples with faunal material from Medieval and Post-Medieval sites from > Namur (Belgium). > The species present in the material are: strurgeon, eel, trout, > grayling, pike, carp, perch, catfish == still eaten now in Belgium. > But also a lot of Cyprinids such as: bream, barbel, nose, gudgeon, chub, > ide, dace, minnow (Phoxinus phoxinus), bitterling (Rhodeus sericaeus), > roach, rudd. > Also, I found (almost in equal qunantity as the Cyprinids)a lot bones > of the stone loach (Noemaceilus barbatulus), Stickelbacks and Miller's > thumb (Cottus gobio). > I am very much interested how these species were eaten: fried, in a > soup,... Is there anyone who has some information about it or knows some > old medieval fishrecipees?> > Thanks a lot, > Ides (Belgium) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:58:34 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Big fish To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > My husband came across this and forwarded it to me-- > It is one massive fish. Not so large as one herring brought in at Caister during the Yarmouth Herring Fair (source: History of Yarmouth by William Finch-Crisp - Published 1877) extracted on web page http://www.ean.co.uk/Data/Bygones/History/Local/Norfolk/Great_Yarmouth/ Crisp/html/body_crisp1.htm "Large fish, 17 yards long, the jaw 3.25 yards long, body 4.5 yards thick, caught at Caister" Capt Elias -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:32:39 -0700 From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA Fishing list? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> >> Are there any SCA oriented lists or websites on pre 1600's >> fishing, fishing equipment, fishing boats, and type of fish caught? >> >> Sharon >> gordonse at one.net > > Yep. Apparently there's a group of folks into period fishing, both with a > pole, and making various traps. > > Phlip Well, you could go here: http://www.farreaches.org/fishing/treatyse_index.html A treatise on fishing with an angle Slightly out of period: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/walton/index.html Isaac Walton's treatise on Angling http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/barker1.html Thomas Barker on angling http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/venables1.html Robert Venables on angling 'Lainie Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:05:19 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA Fishing list? To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Apr 4, 2006, at 1:32 AM, Laura C. Minnick wrote: > Slightly out of period: > > http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/walton/index.html > Isaac Walton's treatise on Angling Just by way of perspective: this out-of-period source was published the same year as The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelm Digby, Knight, Opened (or however much of the 72-page-long title you want to refer to this work by). It also has some fish recipes, as I recall. Recommended even for non-anglers. Adamantius <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris fishing-msg Page 11 of 11