dogs-msg - 11/16/04 Dogs. Barding for dogs. dog collars. Medieval breeds. NOTE: See also the files: cats-msg, pets-msg, rabbits-msg, ferrets-msg, hunting-msg, p-thts-animls-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com (Chris Doelle) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Barding for my DOG Date: 25 Jan 1995 13:57:36 GMT I have a St. Bernard named Sam that is a large part of my SCA persona and was wondering if anyone knew of where I could find patterns/designs for barding for my dog. I am open to any ideas - I will buy it if I have to , but prefer the thrill that comes in making it myself. Thanks in advance Chris Doelle a.k.a. Christian Bryant of House Canis Gigantis cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com From: lsmith5696 at aol.com (LSmith5696) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Barding for my DOG Date: 27 Jan 1995 23:53:07 -0500 Why yes. There is a book on medieval hunting called 'The Hawk & the Hound' which has descriptions of (and primary source illustrations) of both quilted armor and brigandine for canines. -----Master Johannes the Black, Meridies From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW... Date: 13 Oct 1995 16:35:29 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA In article <polsons-1210951823500001 at slip191.sirius.com>, The Polsons <polsons at cruzio.com> wrote: >In article <45i99gINN2eq at sphinx.sps.mot.com>, markh at risc.sps.mot.com >(Mark.S Harris) wrote: > >> > There's even a dog collar >> >museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is >> >> Could you please post the citation for this book (and the cost if >> you know it?). I'm sure there are some dog owners who might be >> interested in period dog collars. Heck, I'm interested in seeing >> what the book has to say, and I don't have a dog. > >Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this? Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland. Corun (of the paragraphical sentences) =============================================================================== Corun MacAnndra | Over the router and through the bridge Dark Horde by birth | To Grandmothers page we go Moritu by choice | From: sjaqua at ix.netcom.com (Scott Jaqua ) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: dog collars Date: 13 Oct 1995 01:47:56 GMT Hi- found the book- "Four Centuries of Dog Collars at Leeds Castle" ISBN 0 85667 0731 If anybody wants more info, let me know. Allesaundra de Crosthwaite From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: TI article on dog collars (Was: YKYITSCAW) Date: 14 Oct 1995 11:09:20 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lady Alianora has asked me to forward this since her newsfeed is currently not functional and she has no way to read or reply to the Rialto. Corun ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 10:17:49 +0100 (BST) From: Stephanie Malone Thorson <smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk> Newgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW... On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Corun MacAnndra wrote: > >Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this? > > Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who > is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in > Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she > is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book > by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland. The article was in _TI_ No. 111, Summer 1994, for the curious. I'm available for discussion, but only by private email since my newsfeed is currently down "due to serious disk problems." It must be bad, if they're telling the users it's bad. I'm getting to respond here through a little creative email technology. Cheers, Alianora who thinks everyone should have a pet Mongol to extol their virtues. ***************************************************************************** Stephanie M. Thorson * SCA: Lady Alianora Munro University of St Andrews * St Andrews, Scotland * Clan White Wing ... coming email smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk * soon to a kingdom near you! ***************************************************************************** From: jmaxson at osf1.gmu.edu (Jennifer L Maxson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW... Date: 19 Oct 1995 13:23:35 GMT Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA Scott Jaqua (sjaqua at ix.netcom.com) wrote: : holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) writes: : >You're at an event with your two dogs--the Rott and the Schipperke, : and : >someone asks what kind of dog the "little black one" is. You start : into : >the usual "They're Dutch dogs that go back as far as the 16th Century; : >someone wrote about a pair of them saving Duke So-and-So..." : > : >And then the questioner cuts you off with "Don't you think that : documenting : >your *dogs* is a BIT MUCH!?" : > : >Joanna (and Calvin, and Eleanora) : Nope, I document my pets. My Curly-Coated Retrievers, Brittanys, : and yellow naped amazon parrot are documentable. My Labrador : Retrievers, albino corn snake, and Jersey wooley rabbit are not. Heck, : I even document and make period dog collars! There's even a dog collar : museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is : obsessive compulsion spelled with a hyphen?) : Allesaundra de Crosthwaite : Mrs. Scott Jaqua Yep. You're right. I saw the "dog collar room" at Leeds Castle, Kent, England. Strange stuff there. I was there in August, dog days of summer. =) That's where we learned that all the spikes were there to protect the dog from other wild predators, since they usually attack at the neck. Never thought about it before. Like I said, after touring the castle, the room was a bit odd. Cheers. From: cmleston at msn.com (Christine Leston) Subject: Re: Beef and Cattle Raising (Was: Re: Any word from 30 Year) Date: 23 Jun 96 18:39:37 -0700 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca I don't know about the size of cattle in Medieval times, but it is true that dogs have been used for herding cattle. Corgis (like Queen Elizabeth's favourite pets) were trained to nip at their heels and herd them in the right direction. Show bulls tend to be a lot larger than cows. Brigid of Astbury. From: savaskan <savaskan at electriciti.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Cattle Dogs (was Beef and Cattle Raising) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:00:11 -0700 Organization: ElectriCiti, Inc. Jimmy Patrick wrote: > Cattle (today) are harder to drive with dogs because 1) the dogs are > so small to them, and 2)cattle -esp. cow with calf- are more ornery > than sheep. There are several dog breeds just for cattle driving and > the better herding dogs can be easily trained to herd cattle. > (see http://worm.biosci.arizona.edu/Stockdog/stockdog.html) > Many people don't train their smaller dogs for cattle because if the > dog (or the person) goofs up the dog can die. > Absolutely true. Most of us think of the smaller shepherd breeds, but many of the larger farm dog breeds were developed from cattle droving dogs. While most dog "breeds" were codified in the 19th century, many had been bred for purpose without standardization for centuries prior. Eventually people selected them for specific traits and they became breeds. In some cases this became extreme and the dogs lost their ability to work cattle. Some examples of modern breeds which are descended from these dogs are the Appenzell Cattle Dog, the Bernese Mountain dog, the Entlebuch Cattle Dog, the Great Swiss Mountain Dog, (Austria/Switzerland) the Bouvier des Flandres (the Lowlands), Old English Sheepdogs, Saint Bernards, Mastin de Espanol, and Rottweilers. The only small dog I know which I know is currently used extensively with cattle is the Australian Cattle Dog and it has quite an attitude! There is an extinct breed which was one of the founding breeds of the Fila Brasiliero called the Fila Terceirense, a cattle herding dog from Portugal which was brought to Brazil in the 1500s by colonists. One of the reasons the Fila Brasiliero is particularly aggressive supposedly because it has to deal with a particularly nasty breed of cattle. I raise Anatolian Shepherd Dogs, which are an ancient livestock guardian breed from Turkey (supposedly over 5,000 years.) They may have been the "Byzantine Mastiffs" and the basis of the Spanish mastiffs. They will guard cattle or any other animal that they consider their "flock", but they do not drive or herd them. Cattle do have problems with predators in some areas during calving season here in the US. There are a number of very ancient and almost untouched period Livestock Guardian breeds which are almost unknown to most people such as Great Pyrenese, Maremma, Polish Tatra, Slovensky Cuvac, Kuvasz, and Caucasian Ovtcharka amoung others. These breeds would have guarded the livestock and the farms in period times, against human and animal predators. Julianna Savaskan Anatolians http://www.electriciti.com/~savaskan/homepage.html From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hounds in Period Date: 28 Oct 1996 17:09:46 GMT Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd. "M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes: >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in >period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine >related. If you want a good modern book then there is an excellent book called 'The Hound and Hawk' (or something like that) which details the quarry techniques of hunting, huntsment hawks falcons and the Dogs! I'll try & find the refs. However you can cut out the middleman if you can get a copy of 'Master of Game' by Edward Duke of York (of Agincourt fame) who wrote an English version of Gaston Phoebus's book on Hunting which is lavishly illustrated ... the illustrations are in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France at www.bnf.fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10.htm Also the Devonshire Tapestries in the V&A have good illustrations of the use of dogs, including hounds, in various hunts. Dave From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hounds in Period Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:12:56 -0600 david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) wrote: > "M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes: > > >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in > >period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks > >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, > >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine > >related. Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the history of the breed. I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine. Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of documentation. Gospozha Akilina Ioannna Rostislavova (called "Newt") mka Monica E. Barry newt at smartnet.net From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hounds in Period Date: 31 Oct 1996 12:53:56 GMT Organization: IBM UK (Hursley) In <manfred-2910961612560001 at news.internetland.net>, manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte) writes: >> In <Pine.SUN.3.91.961024131028.5708B-100000 at vger.cpnet.net>, "M. Jantz" >> >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in >> >period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks >> >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, >> >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine >> >related. > >Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the >history of the breed. I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for >inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine. >Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in >question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of >documentation. Whilst I do not doubt the ability of most breed clubs to trace the ancestry of their 'breed' there are dangers in following this path: As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be 'a little bit stretched' at times. This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today can not be directly equated to medieval dogs. A comparison is the difference between breeds & types of Horses (in Britain at least) where a cob is a type but a Welsh Cob Section D is a breed. The difference lies in pedigrees & without them you have a type. Since pedigrees are a c19th thing (as regards dogs) even similar names may not necessarily mean the same dog. For example c14th/c15th English sources do list staghounds, buckhounds, deerhounds etc. but it would be a poor historian who equated these directly to either the deerhound as we know it today (or even the stag hound ... which is more like a large beagle today!). Also consider the problems that the medieval horse has caused ... the Shire horse is always described as the descendent of the Destrier ... but whatever its origins ... it is not the same thing now. The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original descriptions (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) & approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same. Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound (much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds). Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds. Dave From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hounds in Period Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:59:32 -0600 > As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it > is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the > Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little > pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be > 'a little bit stretched' at times. Hmmm... We don't seem to share this kind of conceit on this side of the ocean. The BCOA acknowledges that our breed is old in its origins but could hardly be considered the same dog that was being bred and used for hunting in the Middle Ages. The earliest documentation that I've encountered was a paper by a Russian scholar (translated to English) who mentions the breed in a form truer to our present type in the late 16th/early 17th century. I don't doubt that Scottish Deerhounds are an older breed but I could honestly care less whose dog is the "most period". Borzoi barely squeaked in under the wire to be considered "period" as far as I'm concerned, and that's good enough for me, AND the heralds. > This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today > can not be directly equated to medieval dogs. This fact does, indeed, wound the pride of my Irish Wolfhound fancier friends. > The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original descriptions > (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) & > approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same. > Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the > medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound > (much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds). > Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be > used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds. Somebody asked for help with sources, I gave it my best shot. I'm sorry if my response was less than pleasing to you. I believe that the original poster was enquiring as to various sources of information on ALL of the hound breeds, not just greyhounds. Picky-picky! > Cheers, > Dave ---Monica, who was looking to help somebody find different sources of information, NOT pick a fight. newt at smartnet.net From: dbeasthlr at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Horses and Hounds in the SCA by Donwenna Date: 2 Dec 1996 17:20:26 GMT Greetings from Lady Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Officer for Animal Activities under the Marshallate, The Animal Acitivities are comprised of Horses and Hounds. The Hounds Activities have begun with Hound Coursing and are adding in other period activities like draft work and HuntingThese events are fairly new to the SCA and are still under development. My SCA-wide Deputy for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf of Midrealm and he can provide further info on the topic. Equestrian activities are comprised of Mountee Military Training Exercises, Mounted Progresses/Processionals, and Quadrilles. Horses are garbed in all manner of caparisons including armour and period tack. Equestrian Marshals must be present and a special Equestrian Insurance must be activated in order for horses to be present at any event. The Gulf Wars is an Interkingdom event that includes Heavy Weapons war scenarios at a fort, Mounted Royal Progresses when every Royal present and Their retainers [over 30 horses and riders] Progress thru out the encampment, Hound Coursing, InterKingdom Equestrian Competition, and A/S competition, and many more take place. LAst year Meridies, Middle, East, Calontir/Caid [won first place], Ansteorra Equestrian Teams all competed in on a special course. The course was a timed event featuring Ringtilt, Spear Toss, Pigsticking Rescue the Damsel, and Beheading the Enemy. For more info on Hounds and Horses and for a contact person in your Kingdom, please email me your name and Kingdom to donwenna at sos.net and reply here as well so that we can continue to share info with everyone here. Donwenna From: earlofwarwick at msn.com (Robert Carteer) Subject: RE: Greyhounds Date: 22 Dec 96 04:15:02 -0800 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca I remember seeing a wonderful collection of hound collars at an English stately home somewhere (can't remember where now) they were made from iron or silver and red velvet lined, two half-collars hinged on one side and clasped shut with a little padlock at the other. I remember thinking how nice my slave would look in one. Rob Carter earlofwarwick at msn.com From: charmchase at aol.com (CHARMCHASE) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Need Advice on Greyhound Hunting Party Date: 15 Dec 1996 00:21:03 GMT The Corrigan's said >Hi! We're the Corrigans and we're active in greyhound adoption. We >will be attending a Renaissance fair next year with a group of >greyhounds and their owners. We'd love to go as a properly costumed >hunting party, but have no clue where to start. > >Can anyone recommend a good web site? We have several questions just to >start: > > 1) Is there a Renaissance costuming e-mail discussion group? > If so, how do we subscribe? > > 2) Did people of that time costume their greyhounds in any way? > > 3) Is there a standard costume for hunting parties? Could it be > adapted for a large group of very diversely-sized people? > > 4) Are there Renaissance costume patterns available anywhere on > the Internet? > > 5) Anyone know of any hunting party pictures we could use as a > "go by"? 1) Don't know(havn't had computer access that long) 2) Yes, the Greyhonds were the dogs of nobles and quite often you can read about gifts of greyhounds to kings presented with gold leashes and collars. Your quickest references are the Multiflure Hunt Tapestries or the Maximilian Hunt Tapestries 3) Use the Maximilian Tapestries ( can be found in books on the Louvre) 4) refer to #1 5) refer to #2 Best of luck. Send pictures! THL Elizabeth Curry ,Keeper of the Meridian Queen's Pack From: SOSUSER at sos.net (SOSFULLUSER) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Coursing Hounds and other Hound activites Date: 29 Dec 1996 07:15:49 GMT For those folks who have an interest in utilizing dogs in the SCA, my SCA Deputy for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf. He can network you with fellow SCA Hound enthusiasts in your Kingdom and provide you with basic info and the Hounds Guidelines. He can be reached at GordanOL at aol.com Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Marshallate for Animal Activities [Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>] Subject: Re: Period Ornamentation for Pets Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:16:42 +0100 (BST) From: "S. M. Thorson" <smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk> To: atlantia <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org> Tehair, if you have a look at my article in the Summer 1994 _TI_, (Issue #111, I think, article called "Medieval Collars for the Modern Dog" or some such) I give some sources in my bibliography there. I also describe the process by which I make collars for my own dogs. With your mastiff, I'd recommend getting fairly heavy welded metal hardware so if she decides to pull, she won't bend the rings out of shape. I *have* been known to take commissions for collars in the past (from as far away as Caid, once) but I'm in PhD end-game right now with a target submission date of 15 August, so my schedule is booked for the next couple of months. :-) Alianora ***************************************************************************** Stephanie M. Thorson | SCA: Lady Alianora Munro Dept. of Scottish History | Clan White Wing University of St Andrews | Tarkhan, Khanate Red Lion Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:15:18 -0500 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Bones and shells >stefan at texas.net writes: ><< Do we have any evidence of folks feeding dogs from the table in period >this way? Perhaps in an illumination or a written report of a feast? >> > >There are several illunminations showing dogs running around the feast hall. >They appeared to be greyhound type animals in build and appearance. I do not >have any ready references but a perusal of Books of Hours should provide you >with the visual evidence. > >Ras There's also an illus. in the Duc de Berry's book of Hours (January) showing little runty dogs *on the table* licking out the plates. There's a greyhound on the floor. Cindy/Sincgiefu Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:10:17 -0600 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies << Do we have any evidence of folks feeding dogs from the table in period this way? Perhaps in an illumination or a written report of a feast? >> A number of illuminations have pictures of small dogs running around the top of the table. Look at the table in the January calendar page of the Tres Riches Heures. There's also a servant who appears to be feeding a small greyhound on the floor. Food in History, Tannahill, has a 15th C. woodcut from Ferrara showing all sorts of bones and stuff on the floor surrounding the table of diners. Several types of dogs are gnawing on them. p. 232. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 21:31:25 PST From: "Tim & Dee Henry" <timdee at sgi.net> Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies > Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval > household? I had someone tell me about bull mastiffs as war dogs, but what > about what I think of as typical hunting dogs today: hounds (beagles, bassets, > blood) terriers, springer spaniels, labradors. Would these be considered > newer breeds or changed from medieval times? These are the only ones in the one book that have dates that are in the SCA's time frame, or mention specific times which I think are within the SCA's time. I could be wrong on some of the "dates". This is from my book: "How to Choose & Care for Your Dog" by Joan Palmer, copyright 1982. Italian Greyhounds, Bichon Frise, Papillon, Lowchen, English Toy Spaniel, Cavalier English Toy Spaniel, Japanese Spaniel (AKA: Japanese Chin), Miniature Dachshund, Pug, Cairn Terrier, Irish Terrier, Standard Dachshund, Skye Terrier, Basenji, Scottish Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, Cocker Spaniel (English), Beagles, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Welsh Springer Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Shar-Pei, Bulldog, Puli, Finnish Spitz, Whippet, Standard Schnauzer, Catahoula Leopard Dog, English Shepherd, Swiss Hunting Dogs, Keeshond(Was know preceding the French Revolution), Samoyed, Standard Poodle, English Springer Spaniel, Clumber Spaniel, Elkhound, English Foxhound (Crossed between the Talbot & St. Hubert Hounds which are extinct and came from the Norman Invaders to England), American Foxhound, Harrier, Plott Hound, English Coonhound, Pharaoh Hound, Ibizan Hound, Sloughi, Saluki, Afghan Hound, Greyhound, Bearded Collie, Rough Collie, English Setter, Gordon Setter! , German Shepherd, Boxer, Hovawart, Chow Chow, Otterhound, Rottweiler, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Briard, Vizsla, Kuvasz, Bernese Mountain Dog, Polish Sheepdog, Old English Sheepdog, Estrela Mountain Dog, Anatolian Karabash, Tibetan Mastiff, Borzoi, Bloodhound (was brought to England by William the Coqueror in 1066), Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Great Pyrenees Mountain Dog, Maremma Sheepdog, Komondor, Mastiff (NOT Bull Mastiff), Great Dane, and the St. Bernard. Dierdre Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:46:27 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Table Puppies Dogs in paintings with food. Okay. I'm not very familiar with breeds of dog, so I've probably erred on the identification. Here are a few for your collection. Bear Carlo Cane, The Hunting Picnic, mid-17th Century, there is hunting hound I can't identify, but the visible conformation does not match a greyhound or whippet. Vincenzo Campi, The Kitchen, mid to late-16th Century, King Charles Spaniel. The Fish Seller, possibly a Maltese (European lap dog from Antiquity) or a spaniel. The Poultry Seller, Maltese (?) Aristocrats At a Lunch Eating Gamberi, from Theatrum Sanitatis, 14th Century, mastiff (?). Jacopo Bassano, The Element of Earth, mid to late 16th Century, spaniel. Giovanni Garzoni, The Old Man of Artimino, mid-17th Century, mastiff (?). Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:27:11 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies timdee at sgi.net writes: << Yes you would have different breeds for different hunting activities. Like the Great Dane was used in The Middle Ages as a body gueard and to chase wild boar. >> Miniature greyhounds were carried around in those big drooping sleeves during the Italian Ren.. Dachshunds were used originally as hunting dogs because they could go into animal holes. Standard French poodles were bird dogs. And terriers were used for rat catching. Mastiffs were trained as war dogs and armored when sent into battle. Ras ( Whose dream is to own a miniature greyhound and a mastiff at the same time. Imagine the cute little miniature greyhound dressed in Italian Ren riding around on the back of a fully armored mastiff. ;-)) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:22:57 EST From: Varju at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies pndarvis at execpc.com writes: << Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval household? >> Puli's and the Komondor are period for Hungary, having been brought in by the Magyars. A later period Hungarian dog breed is the Kuvasz who is first mentioned in documents about the Hungarian King Mattyas Hollos (mid-1400's). Mattyas is said to have stated that he trusted his Kuzasz more than any person. Noemi Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:45:47 -0500 From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com> Subject: RE: SC - Table Puppies << Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval household? >> Schipperke's are period. My Mistress (Elaina) has a painting on her wall from period that shows a Schipperke (although it looks different from the breed now) . They are little dogs from Belgium. Murkial (Whose proud little Schip went with her to a couple events) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:57:22 -0800 (PST) From: Donna Hrynkiw <donna at Kwantlen.BC.CA> Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies Greetings from Elizabeth, On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Shari Burnham wrote: > Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval > household? I had someone tell me about bull mastiffs as war dogs, but what > about what I think of as typical hunting dogs today: hounds (beagles, bassets, > blood) terriers, springer spaniels, labradors. Would these be considered > newer breeds or changed from medieval times? Almost all new and even so, many have definitely been changed. (Insert cranky rant about how the AKC and their ilk have damaged dog breeds here.) If you're curious about a particular breed, I'd go to one of the breed clubs and ask them. Many have material available online. Eg. You can view the Poodle History Project page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/emily.cain/ (But do bear in mind that these people's passion is their dogs, and not good research.) > I am also under the assumption (going on > the food theme) that you would have specific types of dogs for specific > types of hunting Yes -- sight hounds vs. scent hounds vs. retrievers etc. Some breeds of dogs were bred to chase something they could see ("sight hounds") vs. others who were meant to smell out game ("scent hounds") vs. still others who were meant to bring back game that had been brought down ("retrievers") by either arrow or falcon/hawk. The Unicorn Tapestries have good realistic images of many dogs. They look like Black Labrador Retrievers to this untrained eye. Elizabeth Braidwood Who keeps two standard poodles. Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:48:30 -0600 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies The small dogs at the feet of tomb monuments are there to signify 'loyalty', so there must have been enough of them around to create the 'good old dog' idea. In my costume books, and brasses, the dogs might be small beagles, there's a very fuzzy terrier-type at the feet of Giovanni Arnolfini and his bride; a tallish spaniel stands in a Flemish street scene; mastiffs are in the hunting books, in the specified kennel care book; lots of small, indeterminate types (or bad artists). Of the greyhound type, I've seen a variety of sizes--deer hound, greyhound, and whippet. In the 17th C. we see a lot of spaniels in the royal English portraits, but I don't know if the artists got better or the dogs were a new breed. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:10:48 -0400 From: Karen Larsdatter <karen at stierbach.atlantia.sca.org> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Hunting dogs One place you might want to check online for pictures of medieval hunting dogs is "The Book of the Hunt" at the BNF (http://www.bnf. fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10.htm). There have been a few articles on dogs in "Tournaments Illuminated" -- go to http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topi-ti.htm#animdogs to see a list :) Karen Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:24:59 -0400 From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Medieval dogs - Schips & Belgian Shepherds On a web site in Belgium, about dogs of that country, there was a reference to a dog carving from the 15th c. It clearly showed a dog of the Schipperke/Belgian Shepherd family. I believe it was in, or on the wall of, a town hall. The man who had set up the site was very ill, so I was never able to get the name of the town, or a reference for a photograph. Has anyone ever seen a picture of such a carving? Lady Carllein Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:50:20 +0800 From: Matthew Legge <mlegge at dph.uwa.edu.au> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Hunting dogs The reason I came to the conclusion that todays racing greyhound are smaller than the period hunting greyhounds came mainly from the description of the type deer and boars hunted - ie big, tough and/or nasty, because they were a challenge. You can imagine what would be needed to knock over or pin a tired, terrified animal, sometimes weighing in at 200 kg plus, which would, prior to the hunt, be in the prime of its life. From the description in "The Hound and the Hawk" the greyhounds, both smooth and rough coats, were used in the last stages of the hunt. The quarry would be driven past the dogs where it would be seen by the greyhounds which would then join the chase. The greyhounds role apparently was to catch up with the prey and knock it over, or trip it up so the heavier, slower alaunts or other dogs could catch up and actually participate in the kill. In order to do this effectively, I believe that the greyhounds of the time were most likely larger, had greater stamina than the modern version. This is how I interpreted the passage. Does it sound plausible? Maidiu Ruadh, Aneala Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:02:45 -0700 From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com> To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: RE: Hunting dogs > I don't think I have heard of "learchers" before. I will look into the > breed you described. Do you have a source handy? It's often spelled "lurchers" too. :) There's a dog by this name that's still very common in the UK. :) > The reason I came to the conclusion that todays racing greyhound are > smaller than the period hunting greyhounds came mainly from > the description > of the type deer and boars hunted - ie big, tough and/or > nasty, because they were a challenge. We had a discussion about this not too long ago on the Borzoi list. For those of you who aren't familiar with this breed, they are also called "Russian Wolfhounds" and are a cross between a greyhound-type animal and a heavier Russian hound similar to an Irish Wolfhound. Apparently they would hunt with Borzoi in a brace or a trio. The dogs would work together to chase down and pull down the prey and hold it until the hunter arrived with a net to throw over the whole group. The hunted animal would then be either killed, captured for use in training other hounds, or released. A woman on the list who still hunts with her borzoi says that they are still very effective at pulling down even large animals (elk and caribou in her case). > In order to do this effectively, I believe that the greyhounds of the time > were most likely larger, had greater stamina than the modern version. Not necessarily - a speeding greyhound still has a lot of weight behind him and if the dogs were hunted in groups like the Borzoi were, I can't see that they would need to be much heavier. Just my two cents - I'm not a greyhound person (just a Borzoi person :). Julian ferch Rhys kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:35:39 +0000 From: Aaron & Karen Benson <aaronben at olympus.net> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Medieval dogs - Schips & Belgian Shepherds In Stutgard Germany,there is a statue of the night watchman and a schnauzer.This would be the Standard schnauzer. Karen B Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:38:55 -0400 From: "Gregory Stapleton" <gregsta at perigee.net> To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: RE: Hunting dogs Thoroughly period and a favorite of mine is the Beagle. :) Gawain Kilgore / Gregory Stapleton Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:33:58 -0500 From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: RE: Hunting dogs On 27 Apr 99, at 13:36, Kirsten Garner wrote: > Another thing to think about is that the larger "hunting" dogs such as > mastiff-type animals were still around and had been around since Roman > times. :) Or possibly earlier. :) *much* earlier ... the romans brought mastiff breeds from greece ... they came to greece from the middle east and some breeds can be tracked back to tibet and their genesis a wolf-dog hybrids. how many realize that the rottweiller (a personal favorite breed ... presently have a rott/wolf male) was origionally a roman war-dog??? the proto lines were brought into germany by rome and left there (the germans and celts were always fond of large hounds ...). in time their use was modified into herding and carting dogs for those interested in early use of dogs as hunting animals .... _Hounds and Hunting In Ancient Greece_ Denison Bingham Hull University Chicago Press, 1964, LC 64-23424 ... includes and excellent bibliography Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:21:08 -0700 From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com> To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: RE: Hunting dogs > *much* earlier ... the romans brought mastiff breeds from > greece ... they came > to greece from the middle east and some breeds can be tracked > back to tibet and > their genesis a wolf-dog hybrids. I also seem to remember that when the Romans first hit the British Isles, they took note at the large mastiff-type dogs bred there, as well as the little "terrier"-type dogs. :) Apparently they were stunned that anyone would breed a little dog that would chase its prey until it went to ground and then go right in after it. :) Of course, then there's the "Neolithic" terrier found in a burial in Orkney, but I just won't go into that. ;) Julian ferch Rhys kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:13:39 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Hunting dogs > Hunting dogs in period, resemled the Grayhound,at least in > the Europiean area and were called learchers(sp)They > were somewhat smaller than todays grayhound, up intil > about the Elizathetian era, when dogs were begining to > be breed for size, speed, strength and different hunting > abilities, such as retreaveing, tracking and other > atributes on a more orgainsed basis. Please note that there were other types of hunting dogs other than coursers such as the greyhound/whippet. There were bear dogs, bull dogs, dogs used for hunting moose and deer, and so forth. For a discussion on the breeds used as hunting dogs by the Vikings, see: http://www.realtime.net/~gunnora/vik_pets.htm Baroness Gunnora Hallakarva, OL Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:36:13 EDT From: <LrdRas at aol.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Hunting dogs jyeates at realtime.net writes: << how many realize that the rottweiller (a personal favorite breed ... >> A source for beginning basic info on the history of dogs (and other pets) is: The Illustrated Dog- 'Animals in Art' by Tom Howard. 1994. Chartwell Books, Inc. ISBN 0-7858-0178-2 and The First Pet History of the World by David Comfort. 1994. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 0-671-89102-2 Both of these books are very basic but they contain pictures, quotes, and references to period sources which provide a good starting place for further research. Ras Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:46:40 -0700 From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com> To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: RE: Hunting dogs Another reference I've found useful from a zooarchaeological viewpoint (I'm an archaeologist :) is the following. It's a bit more specialized, but still very interesting. :) The Domestic Dog : Its Evolution, Behaviour, and Interactions With People by James Serpell (Editor), Priscilla Barrett (Editor). (1996) Cambridge Univ Pr (Trd); ISBN: 0521425379 Julian ferch Rhys Subject: Re: ANST - Dog Barding Date: Wed, 05 May 99 20:10:21 MST From: charmchase at mindspring.com To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> > on a similar, but slightly different tack, anyone have any good sources / > references for dog *armour* .. have a beast that might be able to pull it off > > and before anyone makes the inevitable comment ... it's NOT for me (g) > > 'wolf There is a museum in Ohio that does have a suit of dog plate. Also on the cover of the Hound and Hawk is a picture of the Maximillian tapistry with an Alunt wearing a type of body armor while it is attacking a boar. In the inner illustrations of the same book there are a few other pictures of dog armor. There is a Flemmish minature(I'm trying to find it again) of a knight on a horse with blue and red barding, his greyhound runs before the horse with a matching cape on. Mistress Elizabeth Owned by the one and only Luckey Dog From: "Malachias Invictus" <X at X.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period Dog Leashes? Date: 22 Jun 1999 23:03:43 PDT I am looking for documentation for period dog leashes (I will be entering one in an A&S competition soon). The only thing I have found so far is in a picture in Le Livre de la chasse de Gaston Phbus. Here is the URL for the picture: http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0041.jpg As far as I can tell, it is a piece of hemp rope wrapped around the owners hand and attached at the other end to what looks like a sort of eye bolt, which in turn is attached to a wide band of red cloth on the neck of the dog. Has anyone out there researched on this subject? Does anyone know what material the collar might be (and how it may have been dyed)? How would it have been attached? Are there any good sources out there I should look up? Herr Malachias von Morgenstern Kapitn der Galatea Danegeld Tor/Cynagua/West From: excmairi at aol.com (EXCMairi) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Dog Leashes? Date: 24 Jun 1999 12:24:26 GMT >I am looking for documentation for period dog leashes (I will be entering >one in an A&S competition soon). My husband, Sir Mord the Green (East Kingdom), found an article on Merovingian dog collars for a friend of ours. They were leather, with big silver studs on them (just like something you might see in a modern S&M club!). Mairi Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:36:08 -0500 From: "Tim & Dee" <timdee at sgi.net> Subject: Re: SC - Re: New World Food Rant / Counter Rant > Actually, Chihuahuas are widely available throughout the Known World although > the expense of purchasing breeding stock may outweigh any benefits attained > in the culinary field. Also remember that STANDARD Chihuahuas are not the > tiny miniatures that most people associate with the breed. Standards are > relatively large (e.g., up to knee high) and those were the type raised by > the Aztecs for food purposes, SFAIK. Miniature and toy versions are a > relatively modern phenomenon. > > Ras Sorry to disagree with you Ras, but according to my dog's breed book the Chihuahua NEVER was a large breed (knee high) bred to the toy size that it is today. Plus there is NO Miniature version of the Chihuahua, they are TOY size only, in two coat varieties -- Long coat and Short coat. The heights vary but there is not a Miniature Chihuahua breed. According to the Chihuahua standards for size, the IDEAL size for show dogs, are: "Should not weigh more than 6 pounds, with 2 to 4 pounds preferred. Although standard does not specify heght, dogs usually measure about 5" tall." (Harper's Illustrated Handbook of Dogs, page209.) In my AKC dog book, they describe the Techichi as: "A small kind of dogs, which were mute and did not bark, as usual, but were domesticated." This dog sounds very similar to the breed known as the Basenji, which were popular in Egypt by the Pharaohs. The Basenji are 16-17 inches at the shoulder (bitches & dogs, in that order for size). The Basenji do not bark, they make a chortleing (I am not sure how you spell that but...) noise. Mundanely I work in a Veterinary clinic and we have 3 Basenji's as patients, never have I heard them bark like you would expect from a dog. They are also only about 14-16 inches high at the shoulders. We also have several (probably 100 or so) Chihuahua and chihuahua mixes that come in to the clinic and none of them are over 16 inches high. Some of the mixes are pretty interesting combo's but none the less they are not over 16 inches high at the shoulders. I don't know everything about animals and I would never claim to, but I do know alot about chihuahua's, I grew up with them and I love them. Dierdre Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:14:54 EST From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com> Subject: SC - Re: New World Food Rant / Counter Rant On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:16:57 EST LrdRas at aol.com writes: >Also remember that STANDARD Chihuahuas are not >the tiny miniatures that most people associate with the breed. >Standards are relatively large (e.g., up to knee high) and those >were the type raised by the Aztecs for food purposes, SFAIK. >Miniature and toy versions are a relatively modern phenomenon. > >Ras The dog you are refering to is called "Itzcuintli", in the original Nahuatl, it is small and hairless and was usually boiled or grilled. I don't know if it is the modern chihuahua or even related to it. Korrin S. DaArdain Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:19:53 MST From: ches <ches at io.com> Subject: ANST - was doggy costume Re: Cool garb (fwd) To: SCA Ansteorra List <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> Here is an idea for the dog costumes. Also, simplicity looks like it is making WishBone type costumes for dogs. The patterns are on their website. Sincerely, Chiara Francesca ches at io.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:09:18 -0700 From: Diane S. Sawyer <tasha_medved at YAHOO.COM> To: SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Cool garb --- "Diane S. Sawyer" <tasha_medved at YAHOO.COM> wrote: > Doggy garb? Like Wishbone in "Romeo and Juliet?" Or war dog armor > and barding, that sort of thing? Barding might look interesting... > > Tasha And replying to myself... There is a picture of dog armor on the Higgins Armory Museum website: http://www.higgins.org/Virtual_Tour/Hunting/hunting.html Tasha Subject: ANST - medieval names for K-9's Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:21:53 -0600 From: "Morgan Cain" <morgancain at earthlink.net> To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> > I was wondering if any one could tell me some of the > medieval names for k-9. Not their proper names, but > what were dogs called? All help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > The Lady Sasha Dog My dictionary reports that although "canine" is derived from "caninus" and "canis" in the Latin, it did not enter English vocabulary until the 17th century. However, the terms "hund" and "dog" were in use before 1600, the latter in Teutonic/Germanic areas and the former in the Anglo-Saxon realm. I would bet that Normans used the period version of "chien" and other peoples similarly had their own words. ---= Morgan Subject: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:01:50 -0600 From: Susan <catmafia at swbell.net> To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> We have recently acquired a new member of the family and he is precious. He is a Havanese and a delightful boy. Here is some info on his breed, http://www.pets4you.com/pages/jomaran_havanese_2.html The naming process will come soon, now to find something to go on paperwork, seems like a persona task... If any of you have been researching dogs' who's heritage goes back over 400 years, here is a great resource and the page I have listed has the rare breeds listed. http://www.pets4you.com/rare.html and this is their inclusive breed page, http://www.pets4you.com/dogs.html I would love to hear from anyone else who has gotten into researching dogs from period, Susan the Curious Susan-the-Curious at swbell.net Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:08:51 -0600 From: "C. Weed" <cweed at austin.rr.com> To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> For a *fantastic* book on this subject pick up a copy of "The Hawk and the Hound: the Art of Medieval Hunting" by John Cummings. It lists at $15.36 and can be gotten at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1842120972/qid=1008937815/sr=1-1/ref= sr_1_8_1/107-4603199-3176540 One thing that the book touches on that I think is significant is that most of the breeds that are commonly touted as 'ancient' are actually reconstructed and usually differ from their true ancient cousins in at least one significant defining characteristic. The author states, for example, that our greyhounds aren't quite as burly in the forequarters as their ancestors and are also much milder in temperament (a breed improvement, in most peoples opinion). As you peruse the millions of different dog breed sites you'll see that a large percentage like to claim ancient origin and preservation in form. I find most don't hold up to scrutiny. Significant evidence exists only for a _very_ few breeds of a perfectly preserved form and demeanor. For one possible example see pages on the Cane Corso: http://www.romancanecorso.com/ (a breeder page with the 'short version' of the history) http://www.canecorso.org/history.htm (a slightly more comprehensive page with limited documentation) Other breeds that I have heard are well-preserved but have not yet researched to verify are the Irish and Russian Wolfhounds, the Karelian Bear Dog, the Scottish Deerhound, and a few of the various Mastiffs. I'd love to hear from anyone with any solid information on these or other authentic ancients. Happy Hunting, Dieterich Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2001 From: "C. L. Ward" <gunnora at vikinganswerlady.org> To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> >Norwegian Elk Hound have been with the Norse. There are a bunch of surviving Scandinavian breeds that date back to the Viking Age or before. Prior to the Viking Age, dogs both large and small were found in great numbers in the Vendel graves in Sweden. By the Viking Age, fewer dogs are found in each grave. The Oseberg ship burial contained the remains of four dogs to accompany the women buried there. The Gokstad ship burial contained six dogs buried with their elderly master. Other Viking Age graves in Denmark, Brittany, the Isle of Man and elsewhere containing the remains of dogs show that the custom of sending a person's dogs with them to the afterlife was widespread throughout the Viking World. Hunting Dogs ------------ Many of the dogs kept by the Vikings were hunting dogs, bred to assist in the chase. Several varieties of Viking Age hunting dogs have survived to the present day. One of the best-known surviving Norse hunting dog is the Norwegian Elkhound (Norsk Elghund), used for hunting large game such as moose and bear. The Elkhound (a mis-translation, these are literally "moose-hounds") is derived from the Torvmosehund or Swamp Dog, bred by the ancient Danes. Elkhound skeletons have been recovered from a number of sites, including the oldest dated remains from the Viste Cave at Jaeren, in western Norway in a stratum dating from 4,000 to 5,000 BC. The J 0mthund or Swedish Elkhound is a Swedish hunting dog of spitz type, bred to hunt moose and sometimes bear. The J 0mthund is the national dog of Sweden. Some experts believe the J 0mthund originated by selective breeding from ancient aboriginal dogs very similar to the West Siberian Laika. Genetic studies show that the J 0mthund is also very similar to the Norwegian Elkhound, although larger. Another spitz-type dog was used for hunting game from at least 1100 CE, especially bear and moose, and modern descendants of this breed are called Karelian Bear Dogs in Finland (also called Bjornhund in Swedish or Karjalankarhukoira in Finnish). An identical breed is known as the Laika in Russia. According to archeological records, dogs very similar to the modern Russo-European Laika and the Karelian Bear Dog existed in northeastern Europe and Scandinavia since Neolithic times. The breed standard for Karelians and Laikas today calls for a black-and-white marked dog, but originally the breed included individuals with coats of wolf gray of various shades, red coats like the standard spitz, and black-and-tan specimens as well. The Karelian Bear Dog was used mainly for hunting small fur-bearing animals, such as squirrels and marten. Like the Norwegian Elkhound, the Karelian Bear Dog was also used in hunting moose, lynx, wolf and, as its name would suggest, hunting the Eurasian brown bear (a bear species as large and aggressive as the American Grizzly). In hunting bear, at least a pair of Bear Dogs would be used to harry the animal, barking loudly, in order to distract the bear while the human hunter came in for the kill. Karelian Bear Dogs are being used today for bear control at Yosemite and Glacier National Parks and in Alaska in the United States (see also "Bear Scarer" in People Magazine 49:23 (June 15, 1998) p. 146). The Norwegian Lundehund is the most ancient of the Nordic dog breeds. The name Lundehund means "puffin-dog" after the dog's talent for hunting seabirds. The Lundehund originates from the Lofoten Islands in the fishing village Mstad on Vry Island. The date of origin for the breed is unknown, however scientific research indicates that the breed has been in existence since before the last Ice Age. The Lundehund survived through the glacial period in the ice-free zones, surviving by eating fish and seabirds. It is thought that the Lundehund is actually a descendant of the primeval dog, Canis forus, rather than the domesticated dog breeds, Canis familiaris. The Lundehund was valued for its ability to hunt and catch puffins and other seabirds. Lundehunds have several special anatomical adaptations that make them particularly adept at hunting seabirds. Lundehunds are a zoological rarity by having at least six fully developed toes on each foot. They can close their ear canals at will and are able to bend their head 180 degrees backwards over their shoulders. Their legs that are extremely flexible and can be stretched straight out to the side, for greater ease in swimming or in maneuvering in the narrow crevices in Norwegian sea-side cliffs where their avian prey lives. The Lundehund was a valuable working animal, for the export of down to Schleswig in Germany was a major commercial enterprise from the Viking Age through the 16th and 17th centuries. In addition, puffins were considerted a delicacy during the Viking Age. Households on Vry would have anywhere from two dogs to a pack of a dozen, and at one point the Lundehund's value was as great as a good milch cow. One Lundehund could capture up to 30 puffins in one night, bringing them back alive to their master. The popularity of the Lundehund waned after the introduction of nets into the local bird-hunting practices. Herd Dogs --------- A variety of dogs were used by the Vikings in tending sheep, goats, and cattle, and several of these breeds are still bred today. The most common type of herd dog was a spitz-type sheep-herding dog, and these were apparently in use throughout Scandinavia from the time of the Maglemose Culture in Denmark (ca. 6,000 BCE). The Norwegian Buhund is one of the oldest known Nordic breeds, and the ancestral Viking herd-dog. The Gokstad ship burial includes the bones of six Buhund dogs. The name "Buhund" comes from then Norwegian word bu, which means homestead, farm or house: this term was first used in 1968 in J. Ramus's book, A Sample Of Words From Norderhov. By the last quarter of the 7th century, the Vikings brought Buhunds to Shetland, Iceland and Greenland It is thought that the Shetland Sheepdog and Iceland Sheepdog are descended from Buhund ancestors. When the first settlers arrived in Iceland in 874 AD, they brought with them the ancestors of the Iceland Sheepdog (sl 0ndshunden in Icelandic), sometimes called Frehund or "Friar-Hound". In addition to herding sheep, the Icelandic Sheepdog was also used in working horses. There are references to the Icelandic Sheepdog in many of the Icelandic Sagas, dating from 900 to 1300, and further references in 1400's and 1500's. The Icelandic Sheepdog also appears in English literature such as William Shakespeare's Henry V ("Pish for thee, Iceland Dog! Thou prick-eared cur of Iceland!"; Act II, Scene I). In 1650, Sir Thomas Brown wrote: "To England there are sometimes exported from Iceland . . . a type of dog resembling a fox . . . . Shepherds in England are eager to acquire them!" The Vikings also used dogs to herd cattle. One of this type was the Swedish Vallhund, also known as V 0stgtaspets, which are still bred today. The Vallhund dates back to the 500's in Sweden. The Vallhund looks like its close relative, the Welsh Corgi, and it is unknown whether the Vallhund is the ancestor of the Corgi or vice versa. The Lapp Reindeer Dog (in Finnish: Lapinporokoira) was used by the Saami to domesticate and herd reindeer. Like the other spitz-type breeds, the Reindeer Dog's origins are lost in antiquity, but almost certainly predate the advent of the Viking Age. The Saami tell the legend of the Reindeer Dog: "A long, long time ago a couple of dogs sat on a hill chit-chatting and watching humans who were desperately trying to gather up a herd of reindeer Having looked at the idle yelling and running around for a while the dogs decided: "We could do that better". And so did the reindeer herdsmen get an irreplaceable helper, a dog who himself wanted to help." Even modern Reindeer Dogs are often considered to possess the gift of speech - they don't say much, say their owners, but they understand much. There are both Swedish or Finnish varieties of the spitz-type reindeer-herding dog originally bred by the Saami. The Swedish variant is the Swedish Lapphund (Swedish) or Suomenpystykorva (Finnish), while the Finnish variety of this dog is the Finnish Lapphund or Lapinkoira (Finnish). Both varieties of Lapphund were developed by the Saami as reindeer-herding dogs: after WWII breeders in Sweden and Finland independently undertook to preserve the species, resulting in two slightly varying types. Of the two varieties, the Finnish Lapphund has best retained its instinct for herding, and is often used on farms in Finland, while the Swedish Lapphund is more often found as a pet. ::GUNNORA:: Subject: [Ansteorra] RE: Period Dog Breeds-Welsh Corgis Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 20:41:36 -0600 From: "Anna Isbell" <a_isbell at hotmail.com> To: <miranda_of_namron at hotmail.com>, <ansteorra at ansteorra.org> My good friend Vanessa,(Lady Miranda) fwded the series of e-mails about period dog breeds to me. I am responding because I wanted to clarify some things about Welsh Corgis (Corgwyn) First of all there are two separate breeds of Welsh Corgis. Both are believed to be very ancient. They are more properly called either the Cardigan Welsh Corgi (from Cardiganshire) or the Pembroke Welsh Corgi (the kind the Queen of England has). The Cardigan is claimed to be the more ancient breed, that probably decended from the same stock as Basset Hounds and Dachsunds, some claim that it can be traced to 1200 B.C. The Pembroke is the "newer" breed having more spitz-type characteristics which are believed to come from the interbreeding of the Cardigans with Viking dogs when the Vikings invaded Wales. There are remarkable similarities between the Pembrokes and Norse herding breeds. From this point in history the ancestral lines of Pembrokes and Cardigans diverged until the rediscovery of them in Wales in the 1920's. The dog breeders who "found" them mistakenly believed they were the same breed and bred them together for about 10 years. This caused the naturally tailess Pembroke, to once again have a tail because they were bred with the Cardigans who have always had tails. Now in modern times only about 20% of the Pembrokes are naturally tailless due to this mistaken interbreeding. I personally have a Cardigan Corgi, Ch. Kingsbury's Copyright a.k.a. "Jake". His mother is the top-winning Cardigan in the modern history of the breed, and has won Best of Breed at shows like Westminster. Most of the articles below are from a Cardigan perspective because I have researched them more than Pembrokes. I hope you will find them interesting. http://www.cardigancorgis.com go to About the Cardigan, then History http://www.cheysuli.com/cardigancorgis/cardigan.htm a good brief history and explanation of the differences between Pembroke and Cardigan http://www.cwcorgi.com/Aragorn/history1.htm describes the "rediscovery" of the breeds" http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/cardigans.html Another short history, including a few facts not in the other articles http://home.austin.rr.com/bryndir/CWCWebPage.html This website dates Cardigan Corgis to possibly as early as 1200 B.C. http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse9647/myweb/Cardigan%20History.htm One of my favorite histories. >Also, I would love info on other tailed dogs, know >that Corgies, Australian Shepards and Heelers will throw with a short or > >non tail, are there any others? I know that the Schipperke is tailless and I believe that there are other Spitz-type dogs that are also tailless but I can't name any others off the top of my head. Here is an interesting website about how they are now breeding bobtailed Boxers (by crossing them with Pembrokes). http://www.nightrider.com/bu/1998%20issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm Incidentally, Australian Shepherds are not actually from Australia at all. They are an American breed, developed here. What is believed to have happened is that their ancestors belonged to Basque shepherds (from the Basque region in the Pyrenese Mts in France and Spain)who happened to arrive in the U.S. with boatloads of Australian sheep. There is a Pyrenean Shepherd that looks remarkably similar to the Aussie and is probably a much older breed. If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to e-mail me. My specialties are Cardigan Corgis and Australian Shepherds. Anna Jo Isbell LowRyder Kennels Norman, OK >From: Miranda of Namron <miranda_of_namron at hotmail.com> >To: annajo at ou.edu >Subject: Fwd: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:21:11 -0600 > >Last one... > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Susan <catmafia at swbell.net> >To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org >Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:35 -0600 >... >Othersite I came across today in another search, >http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/ , it deals with a project through OSU's >Vet program (by the way, they do an awsome openhouse usually every