cattle-msg - 9/25/04 Period cattle and cattle raising. NOTE: See also the files: livestock-msg, roast-meats-msg, dairy-prod-msg, butter-msg, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards CA Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:09:38 GMT ... Now to edge this back to something more relevant, being able to carry a large number of animals through the European winters is a post-period developement. Lord Townsend, known in the Colonies as the author of the Stamp Act and called "Turnip" Townsend by his peers, worked with Jethro Tull to find a technique for overwintering cattle instead of slaughtering all but minimal breeding stock. The solution, as you may have guessed, involved feeding turnips (and swedes and rutabagas and sugar beets) during the winter, as there wasn't enough hay to carry them and the grain was eaten by people, not animals. The root vegetables, however, provided sufficiently more energy using the same amount of land compared to hay that this changed animal husbandry. A more subtle effect of this inability to overwinter stock was greater period use of pork and poultry instead of beef, particularly in the lower reaches of society. Poultry, of course, reproduce generously and reach edibility quickly. Pigs farrow big litters that will be big enough to slaughter when the first frost comes and pork is readily preserved. Besides, poultry and pigs are better at foraging than are cattle. -- Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html From: gfrose at cotton (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year Date: 20 Jun 1996 21:46:09 GMT Greetings, all, from Katerine Rountre. Mary Shafer wrote: : A more subtle effect of this inability to overwinter stock was greater : period use of pork and poultry instead of beef, particularly in the : lower reaches of society. Poultry, of course, reproduce generously : and reach edibility quickly. Pigs farrow big litters that will be big : enough to slaughter when the first frost comes and pork is readily : preserved. Besides, poultry and pigs are better at foraging than are : cattle. You may be right about the lower classes; that does not seem to be what's going on in the upper classes, however. There is lots of direct evidence (much of which can be found in _Du Manuscrit a la Table_) that poultry was a higher _status_ food than any four legged meat, and that this was as true in high summer as at Christmas time. Also, there is no evidence that winter feasts lacked fresh four-legged meat relative to summer ones. There is, however, evidence of several forms that beef was the least preferred of all four legged meats year round. There is some reason te believe that this is grounded at least partly in the strains of cattle available -- what they were eating was far closer to what we would today call ox (and what was in fact referred to as oxen in lists of animals obtained for feasts) than to what we would today call beef steers. Also, of course, beef were not normally eaten before they are about one year old, and then as veal. Recipes distinguish veal from beef, and veal is the more popular (not surprising, considering the sort of beef we're talking about), but oxen held to serve as beef plus cows held to bear young will necessarily outnumber veal calves, unless you intend to decrease the meat production level of your herd every year. That means that all your beeves wintered over at least one year, and most wintered several. (This is true regardless of the class of the owner.) From the point of view of the lower classes, of course, oxen are more difficult to raise than chickens, and have a _far_ lower birth rate (your "minimal breeding stock" must include at least one cow for every animal you intend to kill in the following year) -- but at least as much to the point, they are far more useful alive. -- Katerine/Terry Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards CA Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:21:25 GMT On 20 Jun 1996 21:46:09 GMT, gfrose at cotton (Terry Nutter) said: T> From the point of view of the lower classes, of course, oxen are T> more difficult to raise than chickens, and have a _far_ lower birth T> rate (your "minimal breeding stock" must include at least one cow T> for every animal you intend to kill in the following year) -- but T> at least as much to the point, they are far more useful alive. Er, oxen are castrated male cattle, not a breed of cattle, and don't really have a birth rate, if you see what I mean. That is, a male calf might be selected to become an ox, but one doesn't breed them, although one might breed _for_ one, using parents whose offspring had made good oxen previously. Oxen are work animals, made docile by castration, and are, as you say, very valuable alive, particularly since they are only eaten when they've lost their work value. Since this usually happened because of age, they were probably not nearly as edible as yearling beef, or veal. Skip this next paragraph if you're squeamish about castration, please! I believe I've read that oxen were castrated at an older age than modern steers. Modern steers are castrated at or near birth, but I think oxen were castrated at about a year. In modern steers, they're castrated young and then receive a testosterone implant so that they have its benefit in their early growth. However, the implant only lasts about six months, in part because testosterone at an older age produces behavior that is counterproductive to weight gain. Forgive me for not being more explicit, but I know that many squeamish people, particularly men, find this subject very distasteful and I don't feel very comfortable going on about the hormonal development and sexual behavior of cattle, if you see what I mean. In addition, once again dragging this back to period practices, it's my understanding that the bulls were owned by the local gentry (holder of the manor, knight, priory, etc), so that the less affluent had only to support the breeding cows. One bull can easily service twenty or thirty cows, so this was an efficient use of resources. I'm not sure if providing the services of the bull was part of the duty of the gentry or if some sort of fee was charged, but I suspect that the former was very common. After all, the tenants owed certain duties to the landholder and it would be surprising if the reverse were not true. We have three bulls for about seventy cows; we used to rent the bulls from Hertz but now we buy our own, our herd having gotten big enough that we are not so concerned about inbreeding. One last tidbit of bull lore; bulls from breeds commonly used for milk production tend to be very easy-going and fairly safe to be around, but beef bulls are generally exactly the opposite. -- Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html From: patrick1 at rica.net (Jimmy Patrick) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Beef and Cattle Raising (Was: Re: Any word from 30 Year) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:12:38 GMT Condensed history of medieval moo-cows in reponse to Curious Kimberly who wrote: ....................... >Someone told me the cattle of the medieval world were much smaller than those >we breed today. She mentioned them not being much larger than a shetland >pony, and were often driven by dogs (much like sheep).............. All modern cattle- Bos taurus- are descended from aurochs (Bos primigenius) that were found all thru Europe. The last auroch that we know of was killed in the medieval period. They were as tall as most modern cattle, not as "beefy" and had long curved horns. They were IMHO very scary critters. By the start of the medieval period there were a number of distinct domestic cattle varieties. Several were as small as you said, probably (IMO again) for the practical reason of handling them. A museum farm near me has a few of an Irish breed that are dated back into the 1500's. They are about 40-48 inches at the shoulder, are hardy, and have very nice dispositions. Their milk is _over_ 30% fat, which is probably why the breed was kept so long! Cattle (today) are harder to drive with dogs because 1) the dogs are so small to them, and 2)cattle -esp. cow with calf- are more ornery than sheep. There are several dog breeds just for cattle driving and the better herding dogs can be easily trained to herd cattle. (see http://worm.biosci.arizona.edu/Stockdog/stockdog.html) Many people don't train their smaller dogs for cattle because if the dog (or the person) goofs up the dog can die. Yours truly, Jimmy Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:30:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol at Small Churl Books To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: old breeds of farm animals >> Would the loss of size be related to probable extreme inbreeding >> due to small numbers in the breeding herds? Some speculation: I've read that a lot of people in the medieval villages had quite small holdings. If you were trying to raise a milk animal in, say, your back yard, a small cow might be an advantage. People now use milk goats this way. Also, a very small cow would be much SAFER to have around. Cows in heat are very dangerous. My mother has a story about a cow in heat trying to jump on her (she ducked and it jumped over). Cows in heat climb on things - like pick-up trucks. It is when they will stand still to have another animal get ON THEM that they are ready to breed. Safety in handling the cow might have been even more important since they did not have modern methods of de-horning. So I could easily imagine that small cows would be informally selected by the ordinary folk. Lady Carllein Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:27:34 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. Patrick Hughes" To: SCA-ARTS list Subject: Re: Re- Mediaeval chickens and This is actually about the cattle in Ireland. In O'Croinin' _Early Medieval Ireland_ he comments that the parchment used in Ireland was calf skin as opposed to the sheep skin more frequent on the mainland of Europe. He also notes the tendency to have a greasy texture which indicates overfeeding on grass. He later goes on to cite a study made by Kathleen Ryan, "Parchment as faunal record" in the University of Pennsylavania Journal IV (1987) pp 124-138.She estimated that a theoretical book of 140 folios (70 skins) meant a figure of 438 adult cattle as the number of a heard required to produce such a manuscript. The estimate "assumes that up to fifty percent of all male calves were culled in summer. The rest being slaughtered in their second autum and only the bulls and milch cows being retained." I though this might be of interest to people on the list. Charles O'Connor jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:23 -0600 (CST) From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Period Dairying, Etc. Greetings. For the person looking for information on period dairy practices and cheesemaking try _The English Housewife_ by Gervase Markham, 1615. There is a good edition out by Michael Best, McGill-Queen's University Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7735-0582-2. He has a chapter on the practices that a good housewife should follow. While I don't believe there are "recipes" per se he does mention certain types of cheeses and what one should do with the whey, curds, etc. There is also another fascinating book, _The Country House Kitchen, 1650-1900_, edited by Sambrook and Brears. While the dates indicate OOP, this book takes some of the manors belonging to England's National Trust and details the architectural plans and layout of the kitchens and related rooms. Tucked in with all the OOP material are references to period practices. There are numerous references to dairies and dairying. I don't know where one might find the book. It is esoteric enough that most public libraries wouldn't have it and expensive enough that most SCAers wouldn't have it. I have a copy, but then, I'm single and a pack rat for books! If there's something specific - dairy layout, items needed for a "perfect" dairy or dairyroom, post me and I will send what I can find, time willing. Alys Katharine Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:00:29 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Medieval Cattle *LONG* (was Cost of Things) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca I'm having some trouble tracking down the information for the medieval Continent, but for Britain it seems pretty straightforward... >I'll take a look and see if I can pull out the "ancient" breeds from the >more modern ones in this text. And I am still looking for information >on such cattle. >Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn Just to set the stage: Domesticated cattle (B. Taurus). Height of 150 cm (59"), and weigh 410-910 kg (900-2,000 lbs). Eat 70 kg (155 lbs) of green grass a day Eat 1.4 kg (3 lbs) of silage or .45 kg (1 lb) of hay for every 100 lbs of body weight. Lactating cows require an additional .45 kg (1 lb) of grain or feed for every 3 lbs of milk it produces [2.7-4.4 gallons per day. Milk weighs 3.9 kg (8.6 lbs) per gallon]. Cattle were raised principly in history for either milk production or for muscle. Beef and leather are byproducts of an animal that has either died or is somehow otherwise surplus. For the following material the following standard is used: Size information: [female cm (in.); kg (lbs)/male cm (in.); kg (lbs)] Size of British Cattle (to the top of the shoulder): Postglacial Aurochs [147 cm (57.9")/157 cm (61.8")] Neolithic Domestic (c2600 BCE) [Longhorns] [125 cm (49")] Late Neolithic, Beaker, and Early Bronze Age (c1900 BCE) [122 cm (48")] Middle Bronze Age (1000 BCE) [109 cm (43")] Iron Age (300 BCE) [107 cm (42")] Romano-British (1st -4th C) [112 cm (44")] Anglo-Saxon & Scandanavian (7th-10th C) [115 cm (45.3") or 104.6-121.4 cm (40.9"-47.8")] Saxo-Norman and High Medieval (11th-13th C) [110 cm (43.3") or 100-130 cm (39.4-51.2")] Later Medieval (14th-15th C) [109 cm (42.9")] Tudor (late 15th-16th C) [120 cm (47.2")] 18th C [138 cm (54.3")] Modern English Longhorn [130-140 cm (51"-55")/150 cm (59")] Modern Dexter [91.4-106.7 cm (36"-42")/96.5-111.76 cm (38"-44")] For comparison: Greenlander (extinct) [100-110 cm (39.4"-43.3")] Therefore, in Britain, at least, cattle in the Middle Ages were smaller than the "average" modern cattle (I *think* 110 cm: 150 cm is about 73% and about 3.6"). On the other hand, the different breeds can give you a different idea of what an average Bovine should look like both then and now. Most breeds of cattle can not be dated accurately before the 17th century. SOME assumed pre-17th century breeds? "Alpine" Brown Cow. Lower alps in Switzerland and Germany. Bred into the Swiss Brown. Large. Work/Milk Aurochs (Bos "Primigenius") Currently extinct, other than "bred back" recreations. [aka auerochse, ur, boeuf sauvage, oeros, oerrund]. A second shorthorned species was also described (B. longifrons) although some people think that Lognifrons may be just the female aurochs. [147 cm/157 cm] British ("Park") White - England. Medium (or Small) and Shaggy. Longhorns and polled varieties exist. The Chillingham Park herd allegedly has not had any interbreeding with other herds since 1220/50. Genetically related to the Galloway and Highland. [636 kg (1,400 lbs)/954.4 kg (2,100 lbs)] depending on your sources. Others place the Chillingham herd at [ (850 lbs)/454.5 kg (1000 lbs)] Greenland - extinct. Decended from Norwegian cattle (see "Norsecattle"). Milk [Size based on bones: 100-110 cm] Icelandic - Decended from Norwegian cattle (see Norsecattle"). Small. Milk (long body/short legs) [340.9-500 kg (750-1100 lbs)/454.5-772.7 kg (1000-1700 lbs) Maol - Ireland. Extinct? "Hornless" Medium size? Work. [636kg (1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)] Whitefaced redbodied Holland Black "Celtic" in Britain (from which the Welsh Black, the Galloway, the Highland, and the Angus may have derived). Red-and-white Sweden/Denmark. Black and white - Jutland. =================================== MODERN BREEDS that may be unchanged, or resonably similar to their Middle Ages ancestors (I would like to know whether they are different in size or not) Alentejana - Portugal. Large. Work [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818.2 kg (1800 lbs)] Brittainy Black Spotted - France. Small. Once work, now milk. [363.6-409.1 kg (800-900 lbs)/545.5-681.8 (1200-1500 lbs) Camargue - France (Rhone delta) *Small* Sport and Festival. [295.5 -341 kg (800-900 lbs)/545.5-681.8 kg (1200-1500 lbs)] Chianina - Italy (central) Alleged to have existed since Roman times *EXCEPTIONALLY LARGE* Work [818.2 kg (1800lbs)/upto 1818.2 kg (4000 lbs)]. Devon - England. Red. May be descended from B. Longifrons. Work. [431.8-590.9 kg (950-1,300 lbs)/772.7-1000 kg (1700-2200 lbs)] Dexter - Ireland (Kerry) *Very Small* May only be 17th Century, or may be from the oldest of breeds [91.4 cm-106.7 cm (36"-42"); 341 kg (750 lbs)/96.5 cm-111.76 cm (38"-44"); under 454.5 kg (1,000 lbs)]. Flamande - France. Work/Milk. [590.0-681.8 kg (1300-1500 lbs)/ upto 1136.4 kg (2500 lbs)] Fresian - Netherlands - *probably* post-1700, descended from Northern Jutland Black-and-White cattle. [636-681.8 kg/1400- 1500 lbs)/1045.5 kg (2300 lbs)] Grauvia (Grigia Alpina) - Austria, Italy ("Grey cattle" or "Grey Mountain Cattle") Tyrolian. Some claim to be tracable back to the Romans. Medium to Large. Milk. [454.5-545.5 kg (1000-1200 lbs)/681.8-818.2 kg (1500-1800 lbs)] Grey Steppe - Romania, Russia?. "Medium Sized" [454.5 kg (1000 lbs)/636.4-681.8 kg (1400-1500 lbs)] Hawaiian Wild Cattle - Hawaii - Abandoned by Cook? [318.2 kg (700)/545.5 lg (1200 lbs)] Used as an example of a related form feral bovine. Herens (Eringer) - Switzerland. Work/Sport/Milk. [119 cm (46.9"); 450-500 kg (990-1100 lbs)/122 cm (48"); 600-650 kg (1320-1430 kgs)] Highland - Scotland - Medium. May only be 17th Century. [363.6 -454.5 kg (800-1000 lbs)/454.5-590.9 (1000-1300 lbs) Iskur - Bulgaria. "Medium Sized" Bred from Grey Steppe Cattle, with some northern breed "in the remote past". Work (some milk). [454.5 kg (1000 lbs)/636.4-681.8 kg (1400-1500 lbs)] Kerry - Ireland "Medium" size. Milk. (long body/short legs) May only be 17th Century [354.5-454.5 kg (780-1000 lbs)] Longhorned - England (uplands). Large. [130-140 cm (51"-55"); 500-600 kg (1000-1320 lbs)/150 cm (59"); 1000 kg (2200 lbs)] Longhorned - Texas. [1430- kg (650-750 lbs)/454.5 kg (upto 1000 lbs)] Used as an example of a related form of feral bovine. Marchigiana - Italy (Near Rome) May be related to the Chianina. Large. Work. [590.9-691.8 kg (1300-1500 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)] Mertolenga - Portugal. Large. Work [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818.2 kg (1800 lbs)] Modenese - Italy (Lower Po) Very Large. Work. [659.1-759.5 kg (1450-1750 lbs)/1136.4 kg (2500 lbs)] Modicana - Italy (Sicily) Introduced by Normans after a plague wiped out the Sicilian cattle. Medium size. Work/Milk. [409.1- 590.9 kg (900-1300 lbs)/454.5-727.3 kg (1000-1600 lbs)] Murciana - Spain. Work. [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818 kg (1800 lbs)] Native Cattle - Greece. A Grey Steppe derivative. Very small. [204.5-272.7 kg (450-600 lbs)/???] Norsecattle (North Finncattle/Mountain cattle (Fjallko)/Blacksided Trondor) - Finland, Sweden, Norway. (Long body/short legs) Small. Milk. Seems to be related (if not ancestral) to a number of other cattle types in Europe. Norwegeian Blacksided Trondor [318-409 kg (700-900 lbs)/636 -772.7 kg (1400-1700 lbs). Swedish Mountain cattle [318-409 kg (700-900 lbs)/454.5 -613.6 kg (1000-1350 lbs) Piedmontese - Italy. Work/Milk. Medium-Large. [636 kg (1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)] Pirenaica - Spain (Pyrennes). Large. Work/Milk. [ ???/upto 909 kg (2000 lbs)] Prete - Italy (Sicily). Small. Some work. [318-364 kg (700-800 lbs)/ 454.5 kg (1000 lbs)] Rodopska - Bulgaria. *Small*. Mountain cattle from the south. Look like goats. Work (some milk) [1760 kg (800 lbs)/1980 kg (900 lbs)] Romagnola - Italy (Lower Po) Very Large. Work. [656-795.5 kg (1450 -1750 lbs)/1156 kg (2500 lbs)] Polish Red - Poland - Dark Red. Medium to Large. Resembles the German red. Milk. [400-500 kg (880-1100 lbs)/500-550 kg (1100-1250 lbs)] Shorthorn - England (lowlands) Bred into other breeds. [590.9-636 kg (1300-1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)] Tarentaise - France Alpine. Medium. First work, now milk. [590.9 kg (1300 lbs)/upto 1090.9 kg (2400 lbs)] Telemark - Norway - An amaglamation of several old local breeds. Small. Milk [400-500 kg (880-1100 lbs)] Welsh Black - Wales. Now Medium sized. Historically, the Northern black was considerably smaller. May only be as old as the 17th Century. [454.5 kg (1000 lbs)/???] Wisent/Bison - Bulgaria, Romania [170-180 cm (66.9"-70.9"); 726- 910 kg (1,600-2,000 lbs)] Sources: Armitage, Philip. Crabtree, Pamela. "The archeozoology of the Anglo-Saxon Site at West Stow, Suffolk" In Biddick, Kathleen. _Archaeological Approaches to Medieval Europe_ Rouse, John E. _World Cattle_ (University of Oklahoma Press, 1970) Walker, Ernest P. _Mammals of the World_ (Johns Hopkins Press, 1964) "Cattle" _World Book Encyclopedia_ (1996 ed.) ================================================== Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:23:18 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: re: Medieval Cattle *LONG* (was Cost of Things) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca >I'm curious Marc. Your statement that cattle were raised primarily >for their milk seems in stark contrast to the Welsh practice. All the >evidence I have seen (in passing, I'm not very knowledgeable about this) >indicates that the Welsh raised cattle primarily for their beef up until >the Conquest. Sheep, on the other hand, were raised with milk production >in mind because they were already going to be kept around for their wool. >Have I hit on one of the exceptions or am I missing something? I have no real idea if it's an exception or not, as I have not studied the Welsh Cattle industry (although I've got some nice research done on Welsh Cattle :) ). I wouldn't be surprised that there might be some exceptions that raised for beef rather than for milk or work. I certainly don't have any indication whether the pre-Conquest Welsh did one thing or another. What I do know is that milk production is far more efficient in terms of protein and energy output than meat production. You might take a look at Simon Davis', _The Archaeology of Animals_. Certainly, in some circumstances, it becomes viable to spread into pure beef production (I think Duby talks about this in the post-Plague years in _Rural Economy and Country Life in the Medieval West_, as the arable land in the Alps began to be depopulated). Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:23:57 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Welsh Cattle (was Medieval Cattle) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca >I'm curious Marc. Your statement that cattle were raised primarily >for their milk seems in stark contrast to the Welsh practice. All the >evidence I have seen (in passing, I'm not very knowledgeable about this) >indicates that the Welsh raised cattle primarily for their beef up until >the Conquest. Sheep, on the other hand, were raised with milk production >in mind because they were already going to be kept around for their wool. >Have I hit on one of the exceptions or am I missing something? I took a look through what stuff I have on Cattle in Wales, and while I haven't found anything that definately disagrees with what you say here, I can't find much to support what I've said either. Both interpretations seem (to me) to be supported. If anyone has anything else to add, I would greatly appreciate it. My notes from just today are: Cattle were of two breeds: Black (ancestral to the Welsh Black), and White with red ears (like the Dinefwr and other British park cattle). The Modern "Welsh Black" is a strong and sturdy animal whose milk has a high butterfat content milk even on inferior rations, and they are exceptionally long lived for cattle. The Northern Welsh cattle were notably smaller than the Southern herd, and it seems that the distinction in size was principly due to differences in feed nutrition. The breed is very slow in maturing. Oxen were kept for ploughing, and other heavy draft work. Gerald of Wales wrote that the Welsh ate more flesh than bread, but also oats, milk, butter, cheese. Welsh economic history seems to have a lot of cattle being shipped from Wales to England from the 15th centuries on. At Dinas Powys (Glam): Large quantites of whole and fragmentary bones of young animals, in the following numbers 61% Pig, 20% Cattle, 13% Sheep, Birds 4%, Deer 1%, Horse less than 1%? Interpretations of this are either that they raised a lot of stock, or being 'the court of an important noble' they took in a lot of cattle in tribute . ================================================================= From Davies: "The evidence which we have is inadequate to suggest any regional chronological variations in the practice of animal husbandry, but such as there is clearly indicates that cattle were a more significan source of meat and milk products than sheep at all periods. References to cattle were much more common:[note1] it is the image of the _cow_ in the corn which is so frequently invoked, not the sheep or the pigs; it is cattle disease which has serious consequences; it is in terms of cattle that values are sometimes assessed and payments and/or compensation actually made;[note2] the Dunsaete Ordinances are concerned, essentially, with procedures for tracing stolen cattle; it is cattle raiding, not sheep raiding, which forms the stuff of heroic poetry. All of this indicates a standard of reference which underlies the impression of cattle in the total agrarian economy..." 1. V.Kebii, ch.10; 'Ordinance of the Dunsaete', passim; V.Cadoci, cc.1, 22,24,52,62,65; Canu Taeliesin, I; V.Iltuti, ch.20; Bromwich, TYP, 46; Canu Llywarch Hen. 91,94; V.S. Dauid. ch.16; Canu Aneirin, B30, A39; V. Bernacii, ch.10; 'Canu Heledd',85, BT987. 2. Davies, Early Welsh Microcosm, 53f; V.Cadoci, ch.22. [Notes: Bromwich, R. _Trioedd Ynys Prydein (1961). References are by triad numbers. BT = Brut y Tywysogyon, Red Book of Hergest Version. Ordinance of the Dunsaete = Die Gesetze der Angelsaxhsen, ed. F. Liebermann (3 vols, Halle, 1903-16), I 374-9; trans in B. Thorpe. _Ancient Laws and Institutes of England_, I (1840), 353-7. V.Bernacii = Vitae Sanctorum Britannaie, 2-14. V.Cadoci = " , 24-140. V.Iltutui = " , 194-232. V.Kebii = " , 234-50. V.S.Dauid = Rhigyfarch's Life of St. David. ed. J.W.James (1967); trans A.W. Wade-Evens, _Y Cymmrodor_, xxiv (1913), 1-73.] ======================================================== Davies, Wendy. Wales in the Early Middle Ages. Leicester: Leicester University Press, 1982. The Agrarian History of England and Wales. ed. H.P.R. Finberg. Jack, R. Ian. Medieval Wales (The Sources of History: Studies in the Uses of Historical Evidence) Ithica, NY: Cornell University Press, 1972. Rouse, John E. World Cattle. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1970. Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:51:19 -0500 From: Marc Carlson Subject: SC - Medieval Cows I'm sorry for the lateness of this, but I don't normally read this list. My wife tells me that you've been discussing this topic and suggested that if it has not yet been done to death by now interested parties may want to take a look at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/history/cattle.html and see if there's anything of interest or use there. If there are any comments or criticisms, please feel free to let me know by private mail. Diarmaid O'Duinn I. Marc Carlson McFarlin Library, University of Tulsa -or- Tulsa Community College West Campus LRC marc-carlson at utulsa.edu/lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu/lib_imc at hotmail.com http:www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 00:01:46 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Castrated bulls LrdRas at aol.com wrote: > troy at asan.com writes: > << I don't > recall seeing any evidence regarding the production or consumption of > castrated steers (probably either because cattle were sometimes expected > to do a little work before slaughter, or else because even immature > bulls tend to become upset when you slice off delicate portions of their > anatomy, and express their displeasure in various violent ways). Has > anyone ever heard of a period example of castrating bulls or pigs to > produce large, docile meat animals? >> > > The term used to describe a castrated bull is 'ox'. Hope this helps. Um, not much, although I'm sure your intentions were good. Knowing the term "ox" (a term I was aware of, of course, but ignored in favor of terms that more clearly designate meat animals today) doesn't really differentiate it from steers, which I gather are normally castrated at a younger age than the bulls castrated for oxen. Some steers, I gather, are never castrated at all, but it's my understanding most are. My point was that I wondered how well we can prove, or seem to prove, all of what you deduce about Platina's use of the word "porcus" when the word can be translated as pig or hog, while the other standard Latin word, "sus", designates pig, swine, sow, or hog. What I can deduce from his choice of word is that he definitely means swine, and means neither sow nor wild boar (which is another word entirely), and not much else. The finer points of pig vs. hog would seem to be lost to us from Platina's perspective, and the possibility still exists that Platina never knew the distinction existed, not being a farmer. Is there any possibility that you're making some assumptions based on what you know about modern pork farming, and assuming that the methods employed by your grandparents and their immediate ancestors are the methods that were widely used in period? I mean, "I don't see why not" is certainly a good logistical starting point, but not exactly conclusive. Adamantius Østgardr, East Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:34:24 EST From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Ox and Steer definition timdee at sgi.net writes: << I don't know if you are aware that a steer is castrated and a bull is not castrated. Most people are unaware that a steer is not the same as a bull.>> ox (noun), plural ox*en also ox [Middle English, from Old English oxa; akin to Old High German ohso ox, Sanskrit uksa bull, and perhaps to Sanskrit uksati he moistens, Greek hygros wet -- more at HUMOR] First appeared before 12th Century 1 : a domestic bovine mammal (Bos taurus); broadly : a bovine mammal 2 : an adult castrated male domestic ox steer [1] (noun) [Middle English, from Old English steor young ox; akin to Old High German stior young ox] First appeared before 12th Century 1 : a male bovine animal castrated before sexual maturity -- compare STAG 3 2 : an ox less than four years old Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:52:33 -0600 From: Jennifer Carlson Subject: SC - Steers vs. -- I do apologize!! What I had MEANT to say was: On the use of the term "steer" vs. "oxen": Both terms refer to a castrated bull. Differences in usage seem largely to derive from the purpose for which the bull was deprived of his birthright, and the region the deprived bull hails from. Where castrated bulls are used as draft animals, the term generally used is oxen. In the American West, and other large-ranching regions, where castrated bulls are meant solely for the cookpot, the term steer is used. And regardless of the purpose to which you put the animal, bulls are typically castrated while still calves. It's safer that way. If you let a bull get grown before snipping his bits, it will *not* necessarily make him more docile! So, if you want a plow ox, you'd best alter him while he's young. Talana (Who comes from a cattle family, and is fond of grossing out her brothers with the idea of actually eating what they were cutting off the little bulls.) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:42:12 -0600 From: "Norman White" Subject: SC - Period? cattle breed article in local newpaper Greetings from Jin Liu Ch'ang, I remember, sometime back, on this list their was a discussion on period breeds of livestock. With that in mind, I noticed an article in my local newspaper on Sunday (Bryan-College Station Eagle, Sunday, January 10, 1999) attributed to the Temple Daily Telegram (TX) named "Big state slow to adopt small cattle breed - Dexter livestock raised for both meat and milk production, advocates say". In this article they describe a breed of cattle called Dexter cattle which are described as the "world's smallest breed". These cattle, which stand about 3-3 1/2 feet tall and weigh an average of 750 lbs., are along with another related breed, the Kerry, described as descended from the predominantly black cattle of the early Celts. The breed, first noted in 1776 but are felt to have existed well before that sighting, are an integral part of Ireland's Kerry cattle breed. I felt that some people on this list might be interested as their hardy, small size and versatility (use as both a milk and meat) would make them ideal for people who might be thinking of growing their own for SCA use. They are described as easy to care for, give birth easy and are long lived. The article went on to give further information on the breed (milk, etc.). Jin Liu Ch'ang m.k.a. Norman White gn-white at tamu.edu Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:43:27 -0500 From: Carol Thomas To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Documentation-on the other hand >Then again, there are those wonderfully short cattle being herded like >sheep. I've read that they did have breeds of tiny cattle, because they were useful on small holdings and safer to handle. Cows in heat are dangerous, even if de-horned. IIRC the small cattle were seen in Ireland into relatively modern times. BTW, you can get wooden crooks for herding sheep & cows in the US, from Lehman Hardware mail-order. They serve Amish in Ohio. Lady Carllein Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:36:53 -0600 From: "kgarner1" To: Subject: RE: Cows & Chickens -size > For some reason (much theory, no answers), > cattle in the Middle Ages dipped in size, at least in England, breed > notwithstanding. > > Interesting I know the size supposedly went up with Anglo Saxon Cattle, > perhaps shortage of food ? In the open field book it goes one about > restricted pasture grazing etc. Any other farming books you can > suggest I'd be interested in thanks. The size of all domestic animals dipped significantly at their initial domestication. They stayed pretty small throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages (at least in Europe, although with contact with the Roman, southern animals, they began to grow (around 2nd century BC on). We get very (relatively) tall animals in Germany and France around the 1st century and in the UK a little later. Around the 5th-6th centuries AD, the size in cattle drops off and some researchers have interpreted this as due to the retraction and fall of the Roman empire and, thus, the Roman-inported larger stock. The cattle in these areas were simply reverting back to native type. Julian ferch Rhys Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:11:09 -0000 From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" Subject: RE: SC - "bog butter" > >2) Highland Scottish cattle breeds (such as one would find in the > >Orkneys) were and are generally rather log-haired. > > Ye olde Aberdeen Angus again - don't know which others. I'm wondering if folks are confusing Aberdeen Angus with true highland cattle here? They are distinctly different breeds. Aberdeen Angus is a 'breed developed in the 18th Cy approx for meat production, thought to have been breed from the original poll cattle in the areas of Aberdeen and Angus. It's generally completely black and is a very impressive , if small framed animal. The main reason they are so famous nowadays is that they produce superb quality meat, they have only ever been grass-fed and therefore are presumably BSE free ( there have been no recorded BSE cases), and are one of the few breeds that have been kept totally pure-bred and each individual specimen has been recorded and logged for a significant period, giving us a true history of the food source - you know what diseases they have had, what they have been fed etc. Highland Cattle are the original cattle from the Highlands of scotland , and they are longhaired, very shaggy and cuddly looking beasties with big horns. Historical records from the 18th Cy show that it has remained pure bred from then, so there is a good chance it's close to the original pre historic breed - I can certainly see how you got hair in the milk. Look at http://www.gsnu.ac.kr/~dairy/cow/index.html for some good basic information and pretty pictures For those who want to try eating a piece of Highland try out http://www.highlandproducers.co.uk/ Karin Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:35:52 -0500 From: johnna holloway To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:BEEF was Imaginary list was Re: Irish Stew recipe There are at least two new works coming out on the subject of beef eating in England, so all the questions regarding when the English ate beef and the amounts may be answered by these. Two works already out are Welsh Cattle-Drovers which examines the transportation of beef on the hoof to the markets in England and Cattle: a Social History by Laurie Winn-Carlson which came out last fall. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis Edited by Mark S. Harris cattle-msg Page 16 of 16