pouches-msg - 11/16/08 Period pouches, purses and bags. NOTE: See also the files: belts-msg, chasity-belts-msg, gloves-msg, p-backpacks-msg, rope-msg, basketweaving-msg, coopering-msg, leather-msg, lea-bladders-msg, lea-tanning-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:18:21 GMT Many Viking/Anglo-Saxon re-enactors wear belt-pouches, but were they widely used at the time? If we look at what they are used for on a 20th Century Living History Site, they are mainly used for 20th century articles, namely wallets/purses, car keys, cigarettes, lighters, etc. Originally people may have had pouches containing money in the form of silver coinage, but surely this would be something only carried when a person was going someplace to actually spend it, not something worn as an everyday item. So what would the everyday Saxon, or Viking need a belt-pouch for? From a general point of view I do not know of much evidence for pouches. It makes no sense for a warrior to have a pouch on a belt in combat as it would be far to easy to lose it on the field. Surely if pouches were in existence they would be worn underneath the main tunic, out of harms way. This argument might also go for on the average person in a town, too. There you may not lose it to an accidental cut of a weapon, but to have pouches in open view would surely be a target for a thief. Further to the above paragraphs, and going on the assumptions that pouches did actually exist, what forms of pouches existed at this time. Are we relying on middle age or continental ideas for the shaping of those that we currently have? Were the pouches simple drawstring bags, or were the more like a medieval purse with lid and suspension loops? I look forward to hearin from you. Ben Levick From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches Date: 23 Feb 1996 01:05:51 GMT Organization: New York University ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk wrote: : Many Viking/Anglo-Saxon re-enactors wear belt-pouches, but were they : widely used at the time? If we look at what they are used for on a : 20th Century Living History Site, they are mainly used for 20th : century articles, namely wallets/purses, car keys, cigarettes, : lighters, etc. Originally people may have had pouches containing money : in the form of silver coinage, but surely this would be something only : carried when a person was going someplace to actually spend it, not : something worn as an everyday item. So what would the everyday Saxon, : or Viking need a belt-pouch for? Pouches, suspended from the belt are widely seen in medieval art. In fact, I'd say the costume is incomplete without a pouch. A pouch (or purse) was found with the Sutton Hoo ship burial. Saxon? The museum display for that burial, at the Brittish museum had an illustration of how the warrior would have combined the items. They show the purse worn on the outside, over the mail - similar to the later medieval and reenactor fashion. The Russian tale of how Svietogor met Ilia Muromets has Svietogor putting Ilia into his "pocket", which the footnotes explain is "a pouch worn at the belt" (Svietogor does not get off the horse or undo his mail - and, since the period's mail was knee length, split for riding, and was put on over the head, he would have had to do so if the belt and puch were underneath. (this is at a time when Russ still meant Viking) Hope this helped. Nahum From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches Date: 25 Feb 1996 00:55:54 GMT Organization: Vassar College Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! Ben Levick (ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk) asked about Viking/Anglo-Saxon pouches: >what forms of pouches existed at this >time. Are we relying on middle age or continental ideas for the >shaping of those that we currently have? Were the pouches simple >drawstring bags, or were the more like a medieval purse with lid and >suspension loops? Here's a little information on eastern Viking pouches. Four basic types of pouches/purses were found in the Birka graves. One is a clever folding leather wallet with several sections. (A related type was found in Holland; that one appears to have a strap to tie around the folded wallet.) Another is a single-suspension leather purse with metal mounts that buckles closed. (A related type was found in Jamtland.) Contact me privately for sources. *********************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or *********************************************************************** Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Subject: Pouches at Birka Unto Stefan, greeting from Thora! The source for pouches at Birka is the following. Anne-Sofie Graeslund, "Beutel und Taschen," pp. 141-154 in _Systematische Analysen der Graeberfunde_, ed. Greta Arwidsson. Birka: Untersuchungen und Studien, II:1. Stockholm: Kungl. Vitterhets Historie och Antikvitets Akademien/Almqvist & Wiksell International, 1984. (ISBN # 91-7402-151-6.) The article is in German, but there are some line drawings. This series ("Birka: Untersuchungen und Studien") is a huge goldmine of information on all sorts of important Viking Age finds from Birka. (Imagine, a whole chapter just on spearpoints!) *********************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or *********************************************************************** Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:34:43 -0500 From: Irene leNoir To: SCA-Arts Subject: Looking for Pouch Sources While my local library really isn't up to any serious research, they do give me acces to inter-library loan. The only hitch with ILL is that you have to know what you are looking for. I'm hoping that some of you may be able to point me in the right direction. I'm looking for photographs of 14th to 15th century paintings or illuminatins (preferably French) that show women wearing pouches. I've looked through my book, photocopy, and slide collections, and I've only been able to find 3 examples: 1995 Medieval Woman Calendar - November Attending a Birth (detail Birth of Mary - Weingartner Altar Hans Holbein the Elder German 1493 Augsburg Cathedral - The woman on the left wears a small pale pink pouch suspended from her belt (next to a chatelaine that holds several keys). The pouch appears to be decorated with points of fabric, but I can't really tell because the image is so small 1998 Medieval Woman Calendar - August Peasants Hunting Rabbits With Ferrets (detail) Tapestry, Franco-Burgundian, c. 1450-75 Glasgow Museums: The Burrell Collection - The woman on the top right wears a pouch over her underdress but under her overdress. It is beige and is decorated with tan or golden toned beads. It has separate hanging and gathering strings. French Painting: From Fouquet to Poussin page 48 Les Heures d'Etienne Chevalier, c 1450 the Visitation Musee Conde, Chantilly, France - The woman on the right wears a rose pink pouch over her underdress but under her overdress. I can't see much about the construction of the pouch other than that a seam appears to be decorated with either beads or a cord. If you know of any other examples, please send me the publication information for the book that contains them. Please also include a page or plate number and/or description so that I know where to look Jessica Clark SCA: Irene leNoir Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:55:53 -0500 From: "Rowena" To: Subject: Re: Looking for Pouch Sources >I'm looking for photographs of 14th to 15th century paintings or >illuminatins (preferably French) that show women wearing pouches. >Jessica Clark From A Visual History of Costume, The 14th & 15th Centuries: *An effigy of Lady Gobard, c1325-30, wears what seems to be a drinking horn hung on a strap. IT's a horn, and it is hollowed out. *An illumination of peasant women, c1335-40 , done by an anon. East Anglian illuminator, shows one with a pouch hung off a belt *A picture of a male figure from the Percy Tomb, c1340, with the note: Accessories: A purse with a dagger thrust through it is worn at the front exactly the way Henry Knighton said dissolute women wore them when they appeared at tournaments in 1348, dressed in men's clothes. *A picture of Cathrine of Cleves distributing alms, c1430, where she has what looks like a dagger suspended from her belt, but it could be anything, and has one hand on something else suspended from a belt. It looks like a pouch, and since whe is handing out some coins, it seems like a safe guess. *St. Mary Magdalene, from the 'Altarpiece of the Seven Sacraments', c1445, the book notes Accessories: A belt with a circular clasp, and a hook from which to hang a purse. Rowena From: HS Plouse Date: September 8, 2004 11:26:00 PM CDT To: stefan at florilegium.org Subject: Belt Pouches I happened, in the course of researching some points of interest, come across the question regarding the use of belt pouches by early era Germanics (Franks, Saxons, Vikings, etc.). I can say absolutely that almost every Migration era German probably wore at least one, in which he carried his steel firestriker, some flints, and an assortment of tinder. Such have been found on bog burial bodies from the 2nd through 5th Centuries and the usage presumably continued. A great many reconstructions of early Germanics show the firestriker suspended directly from the belt and some Viking era ones certainly appear designed for such attachment, but it is an easy way to lose a critical article and it is more likely that the majority were carried in pouches along with the rest of the firemaking ensemble (indeed, most of the early firestriker designs would not have conveniently hung directly from the belt and must have been carried in a pouch). As far as the pouch design is concerned, I'm sure there was a wide gamut, from simple drawstring designs to more modern looking ones, complete with flaps and buckles. The Sutton Hoo purse comes immediately to mind, but I have also seen a lovely Frankish example, from the 6th Century, which consists of a "U" shaped front and back, with the back sporting an integrated flap, and with the front and back connected by a leather mid-piece wrapped around and sewn, along the front and back edges, to the two "U" shaped pieces. I have since adopted that pattern as my basic pouch design and have probably produced hundreds, since it is simple to make, attractive, non-bulky, and yet capacious. The historical example appeared to use a strap and buckle closure, but I've made the style with multiple styles of closures, all of which work well, given the basic competence of the bag's design. ALRIC GREYBEARD, mka H. Scott Plouse Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Period Pouch/Purse Question Date: 21 Jun 2005 07:51:18 -0700 <<< I seem to be accruing teenage wards by the carload. I generally drive out to one of the local archery ranges at least once per week. Lately I have had a carload of teenage girls accompany me. I have plenty of loaner bows, but they keep stepping on and breaking or shooting my arrows into the woods where they can't be found. For the last 18 months I have been asking them to buy arrows. These maidens run from 13 to 17 years of age and have no money, but they all have sewing machines. So I have decided to put them to work sewing upholstery pouches, quivers, belts, hats & etc. I have a book with plenty of illustrations of hats, but need illustrations of pouches. Are there any good illustrations on the web, or is there a good reference books available? Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist) >>> Try these on for size... http://www.medievaldesign.com/accessorieng.html However, with that kind of Sewing Power, I'd put them to work on my Garb for Pennsic. ;-) Good luck with the sweatshop... Marcus Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA Period Pouch/Purse Question From: Robert Uhl Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:56:59 -0600 "Jim" writes: > I am surprised though that I haven't received more suggestions. This > used to be the place to get answers regarding costuming. Unfortunately the death of Usenet really does seem to be imminent. It's all very sad. However, I can add one other recommendation: Period Patterns have a pattern set dedicated to bags, purses & pouches. I've not used it, but _have_ used their Men's Italian Renascence and Late Tudor/Elizabethan patterns, and have had great success with them, so I feel confident that the pouch & purse patterns will be pretty good. There are 46 different patterns, so even if some aren't great simple probability is that there are enough to be useful. Something I really like about Period Patterns is that they include an historical overview of clothing in each set with lots of pictures, which is useful for getting ideas. Here's my review of the Tudor/Elizabethan patterns: . The only error is that, of course, the pattern isn't specific to Denver. -- Guthlac of Caerthe Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:33:26 -0500 From: mmagnusol Subject: [SCA-AS] Tarsolybearers? Homepage - Surprise of the day To: - Adrian Empire - NC - Shire of Galloway , - AncientArtifacts , - Authenticity List , "- BARONY of WINDMASTERS' HILL" , - EKMetalsmiths , - SCA-ARTS There is more than just this page on metal pouch lids. It is quite a site for inspiration for both repousse and leatherwork. Magnus Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:01:12 -0400 From: "Saint Phlip" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Books on Bowls, Purses and Shoes from the Middle Ages, on offer from DBBC To: medieval-leather at yahoogroups.com, "Arts and Sciences in the SCA" , "Cooks within the SCA" , SCA-AuthenticCooks at yahoogroups.com I know we were discussing bowls on one of my Lists. Looks like a nice selection of books coming out. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ian.stevens at dbbcdist.com Date: Sep 10, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: Books on Bowls, Purses and Shoes from the Middle Ages, on offer from DBBC To: phlip at 99main.com Dear Philippa Alderton, One new and two forthcoming items that will interest medieval archaeologists and re-enactors: Firstly, we have received some copies of Robin Wood's very attractively produced history of that humblest of objects: the wooden bowl. Our second book, which will be available at the very end of the year is Olaf Goubitz's "Purses in Pieces". The book looks at and illustrates purses, pouches, bags and cases from the later middle ages and sixteenth century, all of which were found in Goubitz's native Netherlands. We have an introductory offer price of $35 on the book and you can click below for more details, including some sample pages to see just how well-illustrated the book will be. And finally, also from Olaf Goubitz, we are delighted to announce that his "Stepping Through Time: Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric Times until 1800" will be released in paperback later this year. The bowls book is available now, but the other two will not be here until the end of the year. Still, you can secure your copy by ordering now.... I hope you will. Ian Stevens The David Brown Book Company Tel: 1-800-791-9354 'Purses in Pieces: Archaeological Finds of Late Medieval and 16th-Century Leather Purses, Pouches, Bags and Cases in the Netherlands' - by Olaf Goubitz List Price: US$ 40.00 * Our Price: US$ 35.00 * Link: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm?ID=81349&MID=11474 Edited by Mark S. Harris pouches-msg Page 8 of 8