pouches-msg

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pouches-msg - 11/16/08

Period pouches, purses and bags.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:18:21 GMT

Many Viking/Anglo-Saxon re-enactors wear belt-pouches, but were they

widely used at the time? If we look at what they are used for on a

20th Century Living History Site, they are mainly used for 20th

century articles, namely wallets/purses, car keys, cigarettes,

lighters, etc. Originally people may have had pouches containing money

in the form of silver coinage, but surely this would be something only

carried when a person was going someplace to actually spend it, not

something worn as an everyday item. So what would the everyday Saxon,

or Viking need a belt-pouch for?

From a general point of view I do not know of much evidence for

pouches. It makes no sense for a warrior to have a pouch on a belt in

combat as it would be far to easy to lose it on the field. Surely if

pouches were in existence they would be worn underneath the main

tunic, out of harms way. This argument might also go for on the

average person in a town, too. There you may not lose it to an

accidental cut of a weapon, but to have pouches in open view would

surely be a target for a thief.

Further to the above paragraphs, and going on the assumptions that

pouches did actually exist, what forms of pouches existed at this

time. Are we relying on middle age or continental ideas for the

shaping of those that we currently have? Were the pouches simple

drawstring bags, or were the more like a medieval purse with lid and

suspension loops?

I look forward to hearin from you.

Ben Levick

From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches

Date: 23 Feb 1996 01:05:51 GMT

Organization: New York University

ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk wrote:

: Many Viking/Anglo-Saxon re-enactors wear belt-pouches, but were they

: widely used at the time? If we look at what they are used for on a

: 20th Century Living History Site, they are mainly used for 20th

: century articles, namely wallets/purses, car keys, cigarettes,

: lighters, etc. Originally people may have had pouches containing money

: in the form of silver coinage, but surely this would be something only

: carried when a person was going someplace to actually spend it, not

: something worn as an everyday item. So what would the everyday Saxon,

: or Viking need a belt-pouch for?

Pouches, suspended from the belt are widely seen in medieval art. In

fact, I'd say the costume is incomplete without a pouch.

A pouch (or purse) was found with the Sutton Hoo ship burial. Saxon?

The museum display for that burial, at the Brittish museum had an

illustration of how the

warrior would have combined the items. They show the purse worn on the

outside, over the mail - similar to the later medieval and reenactor fashion.

The Russian tale of how Svietogor met Ilia Muromets has Svietogor putting

Ilia into his "pocket", which the footnotes explain is "a pouch worn at

the belt" (Svietogor does not get off the horse or undo his mail - and,

since the period's mail was knee length, split for riding, and was put on

over the head, he would have had to do so if the belt and puch were

underneath.

(this is at a time when Russ still meant Viking)

Hope this helped.

Nahum

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Belt Pouches

Date: 25 Feb 1996 00:55:54 GMT

Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Ben Levick (ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk) asked about Viking/Anglo-Saxon

pouches:

>what forms of pouches existed at this

>time. Are we relying on middle age or continental ideas for the

>shaping of those that we currently have? Were the pouches simple

>drawstring bags, or were the more like a medieval purse with lid and

>suspension loops?

Here's a little information on eastern Viking pouches. Four basic

types of pouches/purses were found in the Birka graves. One is a

clever folding leather wallet with several sections. (A related type

was found in Holland; that one appears to have a strap to tie around

the folded wallet.) Another is a single-suspension leather purse with

metal mounts that buckles closed. (A related type was found in

Jamtland.)

Contact me privately for sources.

***********************************************************************

Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth

priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik

Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or

***********************************************************************

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)

Subject: Pouches at Birka

Unto Stefan, greeting from Thora!

The source for pouches at Birka is the following.

Anne-Sofie Graeslund, "Beutel und Taschen," pp. 141-154 in

_Systematische Analysen der Graeberfunde_, ed. Greta Arwidsson.

Birka: Untersuchungen und Studien, II:1. Stockholm: Kungl.

Vitterhets Historie och Antikvitets Akademien/Almqvist & Wiksell

International, 1984. (ISBN # 91-7402-151-6.)

The article is in German, but there are some line drawings. This series

("Birka: Untersuchungen und Studien") is a huge goldmine of information on

all sorts of important Viking Age finds from Birka. (Imagine, a whole

chapter just on spearpoints!)

***********************************************************************

Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth

priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik

Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or

***********************************************************************

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:34:43 -0500

From: Irene leNoir <irene at ici.net>

To: SCA-Arts <SCA-ARTS at UKANS.EDU>

Subject: Looking for Pouch Sources

While my local library really isn't up to any serious research, they do

give me acces to inter-library loan. The only hitch with ILL is that you

have to know what you are looking for. I'm hoping that some of you may

be able to point me in the right direction.

I'm looking for photographs of 14th to 15th century paintings or

illuminatins (preferably French) that show women wearing pouches.

I've looked through my book, photocopy, and slide collections, and I've

only been able to find 3 examples:

1995 Medieval Woman Calendar - November

Attending a Birth (detail

Birth of Mary - Weingartner Altar

Hans Holbein the Elder

German 1493

Augsburg Cathedral

- The woman on the left wears a small pale pink pouch suspended from her

belt (next to a chatelaine that holds several keys). The pouch appears

to be decorated with points of fabric, but I can't really tell because

the image is so small

1998 Medieval Woman Calendar - August

Peasants Hunting Rabbits With Ferrets (detail)

Tapestry, Franco-Burgundian, c. 1450-75

Glasgow Museums: The Burrell Collection

- The woman on the top right wears a pouch over her underdress but under

her overdress. It is beige and is decorated with tan or golden toned

beads. It has separate hanging and gathering strings.

French Painting: From Fouquet to Poussin

page 48

Les Heures d'Etienne Chevalier, c 1450

the Visitation

Musee Conde, Chantilly, France

- The woman on the right wears a rose pink pouch over her underdress but

under her overdress. I can't see much about the construction of the

pouch other than that a seam appears to be decorated with either beads or

a cord.

If you know of any other examples, please send me the publication

information for the book that contains them. Please also include a page

or plate number and/or description so that I know where to look

Jessica Clark

SCA: Irene leNoir

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:55:53 -0500

From: "Rowena" <rowena at telenet.net>

To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Re: Looking for Pouch Sources

>I'm looking for photographs of 14th to 15th century paintings or

>illuminatins (preferably French) that show women wearing pouches.

>Jessica Clark

From A Visual History of Costume, The 14th & 15th Centuries:

*An effigy of Lady Gobard, c1325-30, wears what seems to be a drinking horn

hung on a strap. IT's a horn, and it is hollowed out.

*An illumination of peasant women, c1335-40 , done by an anon. East Anglian

illuminator, shows one with a pouch hung off a belt

*A picture of a male figure from the Percy Tomb, c1340, with the note:

Accessories: A purse with a dagger thrust through it is worn at the

front exactly the way Henry Knighton said dissolute women wore

them when they appeared at tournaments in 1348, dressed in men's clothes.

*A picture of Cathrine of Cleves distributing alms, c1430, where she has

what looks like a dagger suspended from her belt, but it could be anything,

and has one hand on something else suspended from a belt. It looks like a

pouch, and since whe is handing out some coins, it seems like a safe guess.

*St. Mary Magdalene, from the 'Altarpiece of the Seven Sacraments', c1445,

the book notes Accessories: A belt with a circular clasp, and a hook from

which to hang a purse.

Rowena

From: HS Plouse <hpflashman at charter.net>

Date: September 8, 2004 11:26:00 PM CDT

To: stefan at florilegium.org

Subject: Belt Pouches

I happened, in the course of researching some points of interest, come across the question regarding the use of belt pouches by early era Germanics (Franks, Saxons, Vikings, etc.). I can say absolutely that almost every Migration era German probably wore at least one, in which he carried his steel firestriker, some flints, and an assortment of tinder. Such have been found on bog burial bodies from the 2nd through 5th Centuries and the usage presumably continued. A great many reconstructions of early Germanics show the firestriker suspended directly from the belt and some Viking era ones certainly appear designed for such attachment, but it is an easy way to lose a critical article and it is more likely that the majority were carried in pouches along with the rest of the firemaking ensemble (indeed, most of the early firestriker designs would not have conveniently hung directly from the belt and must have been carried in a pouch). As far as the pouch design is concerned, I'm sure there was a wide gamut, from simple drawstring designs to more modern looking ones, complete with flaps and buckles. The Sutton Hoo purse comes immediately to mind, but I have also seen a lovely Frankish example, from the 6th Century, which consists of a "U" shaped front and back, with the back sporting an integrated flap, and with the front and back connected by a leather mid-piece wrapped around and sewn, along the front and back edges, to the two "U" shaped pieces. I have since adopted that pattern as my basic pouch design and have probably produced hundreds, since it is simple to make, attractive, non-bulky, and yet capacious. The historical example appeared to use a strap and buckle closure, but I've made the style with multiple styles of closures, all of which work well, given the basic competence of the bag's design.

ALRIC GREYBEARD, mka H. Scott Plouse

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Period Pouch/Purse Question

Date: 21 Jun 2005 07:51:18 -0700

<<< I seem to be accruing teenage wards by the carload. I generally drive

out to one of the local archery ranges at least once per week. Lately

I have had a carload of teenage girls accompany me. I have plenty of

loaner bows, but they keep stepping on and breaking or shooting my

arrows into the woods where they can't be found. For the last 18

months I have been asking them to buy arrows. These maidens run from

13 to 17 years of age and have no money, but they all have sewing

machines. So I have decided to put them to work sewing upholstery

pouches, quivers, belts, hats & etc. I have a book with plenty of

illustrations of hats, but need illustrations of pouches. Are there

any good illustrations on the web, or is there a good reference books

available?

Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist) >>>

Try these on for size...

http://www.medievaldesign.com/accessorieng.html

However, with that kind of Sewing Power, I'd put them to work on my

Garb for Pennsic. ;-)

Good luck with the sweatshop...

Marcus

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Period Pouch/Purse Question

From: Robert Uhl <eadmund42 at NOSPAMgmail.com>

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:56:59 -0600

"Jim" <alchem at en.com> writes:

> I am surprised though that I haven't received more suggestions. This

> used to be the place to get answers regarding costuming.

Unfortunately the death of Usenet really does seem to be imminent. It's

all very sad.

However, I can add one other recommendation: Period Patterns have a

pattern set dedicated to bags, purses & pouches. I've not used it, but

_have_ used their Men's Italian Renascence and Late Tudor/Elizabethan

patterns, and have had great success with them, so I feel confident that

the pouch & purse patterns will be pretty good. There are 46 different

patterns, so even if some aren't great simple probability is that there

are enough to be useful.

Something I really like about Period Patterns is that they include an

historical overview of clothing in each set with lots of pictures, which

is useful for getting ideas.

Here's my review of the Tudor/Elizabethan patterns:

<http://denver.tribe.net/recommendation/a1b13e8d-a48a-48a5-89cd-19d6b5e58d87?r=10010>;.

The only error is that, of course, the pattern isn't specific to Denver.

Guthlac of Caerthe <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>;

Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:33:26 -0500

From: mmagnusol <MMagnusOL at nc.rr.com>

Subject: [SCA-AS] Tarsolybearers? Homepage - Surprise of the day

To: - Adrian Empire - NC - Shire of Galloway

<Shire_of_Galloway at yahoogroups.com>, - AncientArtifacts

<Ancientartifacts at yahoogroups.com>, - Authenticity List

<authenticity at yahoogroups.com>, "- BARONY of WINDMASTERS' HILL"

<keep at windmastershill.org>, - EKMetalsmiths

<EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com>, - SCA-ARTS

There is more than just this page on metal pouch lids.

It is quite a site for inspiration for both

repousse and leatherwork.

Magnus

<http://www.tarsolyosok.hu/eng/leleteink.htm>;

<http://www.tarsolyosok.hu/eng/>;

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:01:12 -0400

From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Books on Bowls, Purses and Shoes from the

Middle Ages, on offer from DBBC

To: medieval-leather at yahoogroups.com, "Arts and Sciences in the SCA"

<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>, SCA-AuthenticCooks at yahoogroups.com

I know we were discussing bowls on one of my Lists. Looks like a nice

selection of books coming out.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: ian.stevens at dbbcdist.com <ian.stevens at dbbcdist.com>

Date: Sep 10, 2007 11:44 AM

Subject: Books on Bowls, Purses and Shoes from the Middle Ages, on

offer from DBBC

To: phlip at 99main.com

Dear Philippa Alderton,

One new and two forthcoming items that will interest medieval

archaeologists and re-enactors:

Firstly, we have received some copies of Robin Wood's very

attractively produced history of that humblest of objects: the wooden

bowl. <snip>

Our second book, which will be available at the very end of the year

is Olaf Goubitz's "Purses in Pieces". The book looks at and

illustrates purses, pouches, bags and cases from the later middle

ages and sixteenth century, all of which were found in Goubitz's

native Netherlands. We have an introductory offer price of $35 on the

book and you can click below for more details, including some sample

pages to see just how well-illustrated the book will be.

And finally, also from Olaf Goubitz, we are delighted to announce that

his "Stepping Through Time: Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric

Times until 1800" will be released in paperback later this year. <snip - See the file p-shoes-msg>

The bowls book is available now, but the other two will not be here

until the end of the year. Still, you can secure your copy by ordering

now.... I hope you will.

Ian Stevens

The David Brown Book Company

Tel: 1-800-791-9354

'Purses in Pieces: Archaeological Finds of Late Medieval and

16th-Century Leather Purses, Pouches, Bags and Cases in the

Netherlands' - by Olaf Goubitz

List Price: US$ 40.00 * Our Price: US$ 35.00 *

Link: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm?ID=81349&;MID=11474