favors-msg - 9/28/17 On the making and giving of favors. NOTE: See also these files: p-favors-art, SCA-courtesy-art, courtesy-msg, jewelry-msg, On-Favors-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ TO: Storm Shadowhawk FROM: Baroness TSivia SUBJECT: favours Well, actually a favour can be just about anything and made of much the same stuff. I once embroidered one for a lover out of my own hair! Historically they started with those romantic ladies who would rip off a tippett (sleeve) and tie them on the arm or helm of their fighter...later on the ladies actually wore fake sleeves to do this! In the SCA they are traditionally embroidered (although that's not always the case - one of my champions wore my hair scarf for 6 years because he asked me on the spur of the moment, and I wasn't going to rip my garb for him! Luckily the two were of the same material...). You may take a long rectangle of material (try to make it sturdy if the wearer will be fighting with it on), 8 - 12 inches times two (this will be folded over so that there's a belt-loop created). You may then embroider directly on the fabric, or else embroider a special piece and attach it to the length of fabric (this wears better). I make velvet favours for dress costumes, and cotton or other washables for fighting garb. You have NO IDEA how stinky a fighter's favour can be after 6 months in the armour bag...yuch! You may embroider your Arms or Device, a motto, a picture, symbolic animals from both (or either ) of your devices...the possibilities are endless. The key is to fashion it with love (platonic or erotic..or both!?) and care. You may give it to a lover, a friend, or even make special ones for giving to more than one friend (such as I did at a Crown tounament when three of my friends all got into the semis). Your imagination is all that restricts your efforts, my lady. (My least fancy favours were lengths of three different coloured ribbons, plaited together and ended with a bell. You might say I belled the cat...) It is worth noting that as of late, particularly in the Middle and East for Pennsic, the Queens fashion special Tokens which they give to all who serve the War effort (archers, rattan fighters, sometimes encampment guards and others who serve). These are also tokens, but another kettle of fish altogether. HSH Tangwystl made satin tokens for the Ealdormere forces at Pennsic last year...I imagine that as War Queen this year, she will do similar. Umm...Err...methinks I ramble a bit much. Got that answered? Message me if there's any other questions. Best to all! * Origin: Pandora's Box, Ottawa, Ontario (93:9630/1) TO: All FROM: N6852 U14 (Ted (Ice Breaker) Kocot) SUBJECT: Favors - construction and (ab)use (RE: Favors) A favor can be anything that you want it to be (embroidery is by far the most common but I have seen some REALLY far out ones). You can put just about anything you want on them, though usually it is your arms, or some variation of them. One favor that I have seen took the primary charges from the lord and lady's device and mixed them together in a naturalistic scene. If the lord you are planning to present this to is a fighter then, by all means, either make it indestructable, or make his sign a blood oath not to wear it into the lists!!! # Origin: WWIVnet at 6852 - Snafu Software TO: All FROM: N5859 U49 (Marshal'S Antelope) Of 3 SUBJECT: Several comments (as usual) Favors: My lady Storm, don't be ashamed of your work! My lord still wears the favor I made for him five years ago; although my embroidery is considerably finer now (I recently made him another for Court wear), we still feel sentimental about the old one. So will your lord; it's the effort you put into it that counts. Thanks... Alison MacDermot (Eastern Crown Herald) # Origin: WWIVnet at 5859 - The Aerie TO: Storm Shadowhawk FROM: Meadhbh SUBJECT: Re: Favors i do inkle weaving. so i usually weave a short piece in my colors. its a popular pastime in ansteorra--weaving. your favor sounds pretty. * Origin: Justice - Make it Happen (1:106/960) TO: Meadhbh FROM: Storm Shadowhawk SUBJECT: Re: Favors An inkle? I don't have a symbol, or standard or anything! So I just made something up, a gold circle with a heart in the middle and a rose above and below the circle. It'll do for now. "lady" Storm Shadowhawk....Amberla * Origin: The Homestead * TORONTO, ONT * (416) 272-4067 * (93:9630/0) From: mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires) Date: 28 Feb 91 05:38:19 GMT Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University, Bloomington. In article <9102270829.AA29250 at sagepub.COM> jprod at sagepub.com writes: > > Greetings to the Rialto from Sister Kate! > > First, let me thank all gentles for the responses to my first posting. > The information on period bread, etc. was interesting and informative; > the only question I got no answer to at all was on period favors and the > favor/token customs of different kingdoms. I'm still interested. I know In Sir Alan's time (Elizabeth I of England) favors varied. Sir Henry Lee wore his mistress's initials (NOT the Queen) engraved into the decoration on his breastplate (he married her after retiring as Queen's Champion); another favorite was given a chesspiece that he wore tied to a pauldron. In the Middle favors are customarily embroidered onto a a square or retangular piece of fabric and worn looped over the belt; I wore a favor tied to a pauldron but had it torn off in a melee and lost; this is not a problem with the usual practice. When cleaning up after melees I have occasionally found lost favors; it is very nice to note that a lost favor is treated with considerably greater respect than lost armor and those finding it go to great lengths to return it to the bearer. -- Mike Squires (mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu) 812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h) mikes at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408 Under construction: mikes at sir-alan.cica.indiana.edu Henry Best All Favors 24 Sep 91 09:49:54 Erik> Finally: I see many fighters with multiple favors on. Erik> Is this a practice that should be frowned upon, up to Erik> the individual fighters and their respective favor- Erik> givers, or ignored? Well, it should be frowned upon during Crown Tourney for strictly practical reasons. Other than that little quibble, I feel VERY STRONGLY that it is up to those directly involved. I think that favors remain the personal property of the giver and are to be relinquished to them upon request without question. That favor represents the giver's honor which he/she is placing in your care. You simply do not have the right to perform any dishonorable acts while bearing a favor. The favor is an expression of absolute trust that you will not do anything to dishonor it. I believe that, if another lady asked me to bear her favor, my lady would take it as a compliment of the most profound sort. I do not think that she would feel anything other than pride. Henry Best Isenfir Atlantia Henry Best All Favors 24 Sep 91 09:49:06 Erik> Is a non-heraldic favor considered right, poor practive Erik> but acceptable, unacceptable under any terms, or what? Hmmm. I think that a favor has to remind the recipient of the giver as strongly and as positively as possible. It should be personal, tasteful, and "period". Heraldry is a natural tool to use to obtain those ends and is used widely in the Society but I have never really thought of favors as being inherently heraldic. I have strong suspicions that the heavy use of heraldry in favors is SCA rather than medieval. All the accounts I have read involve handkerchiefs, gloves, sleeves, etc. I have never seen a primary source "heraldic belt favor". But then, I haven't really looked that closely. I am extremely delighted and proud to bear my lady's favor. I would like to tell you about it. I was taking my test for rapier authorization and my lady had intended to make me a favor to wear. Moments before I was to fight, she realized she had forgotten to do so. In a panic, she searched our stuff for something, anything, that would do and came up empty-handed. Then, she had an inspiration. She borrowed a pair of scissors and began to rip up the hem of her skirt. (I can only imagine our friends' reaction when this madwoman tore the camp apart and then began destroying her own garments..) She cut a strip, brought it across the field, and tied it around my arm with a kiss. I cannot muster the words to describe my feelings when she did that. Words like "love" or "pride" or "the Dream" all seem inadequate. I guess I'll have to go "california" and say it was a "peak experience". The brocade is fairly distinctive and I have no trouble associating it with her. Someday, she may make me a fancier one; but this ragged strip of cloth makes me very proud and happy. I delight in wearing it. So when designing a favor, all you really have to remember is the bottom line: Will this remind him/her of me and inspire him/her to honor? If it does that, who _cares_ if it's heraldicly correct? (Vert, a wierd brocade pattern azure....) Henry Best Isenfir Atlantia From: bmorris at access.digex.com (Beth Morris) Date: 25 Sep 91 18:17:17 GMT Organization: Express Access, Greenbelt, MD Erik Aarskog asks: > What is a favor? I have seen them with personal devices, with >obviously non-period designs, and with just plain pieces of material >flopped over a belt. I am wondering how the denizens of the Rialto >see them in light of the following questions: > Finally: I see many fighters with multiple favors on. Is this a >practice that should be frowned upon, up to the individual fighters and >their respective favor-givers, or ignored? Comments? Last things first. As to the wearing of plural favors, Thorfinn says: >Favors are given to show many things: Household affiliation, friendship, >love, or the approval of a Hat. They need not be heraldic, and often aren't. but neglects the important question of WHY one is wearing plural favors. Obviously, one can be in a household and have a SO. One could also be the champion of another gentle, although one might or might not wear that favor except in the act of championing that person. One could wear the token of one's prospective Consort in a Crown list, and also wear the token of one's SO, if all were agreeable. And tokens from the Crowns (etc) are often given and worn regardless of other affiliations. In the end it is up to the fighter in question to determine how many persons he may, in honor, wear tokens from, and it is between the fighter and the giver of the token to determine its 'meaning'. As to what constitutes an appropriate favor, I like Winifred's suggestion: >As I understand, in period women gave men scarves, sleeves, ribbons, etc. >Since some fabric I have seen has arms embroidered on it, those sleeves could >have had the women's arms on them. ... I may make a sleeve from leftover >material next time I make garb. That way I have two to wear and one to give as >a favor. "Give you my sleeve? My silk sleeve? I like you, but NO ONE gets my >silk." This works particularly well for gowns with detachable sleeves (15th C. Northern European with the pin-on long sleeves over the short-sleeved gown, or Italian Ren (although I don't know that they would have done it that way...)), or for gowns with maunche sleeves (as Sir John suggests) or tippets. I haven't found anything concrete to support the "dishrags" either - if anyone does, please let me know. In the meantime, (Sir John, citing Viscountess Ascelin) >Her research did turn up references to sleeves, tippets, and >hankerchiefs, but not to napkins (which would >be on the servers anyway? not on the ladies). As another note, >it was common for the ladies to be sewn into their dresses, >and presenting a champion with a sleeve was quite a statement. (Thus Winifred's suggestion of making a spare :-)) What about all the illustrations of people being given pennons? You see pix of people (usually the victor) being given chaplets of flowers too, but that would get expensive and they aren't very durable. Some other, purely practical-SCA ideas include garters (such as those of the fighting Laureate, or those given for the Star of Merit in Ansteorra) (for those who have not seen them, a leather (in the former case) or fabric band with a buckle, which can be tied about the calf or upper arm), belts, helm mantling, belt buckles, arming caps: all things that are depicted in period as having armorial designs on them, and relatively easily made and personal- ized. What about a sword-hanger (one of the leather tube 'scabbards' for SCA swords? Or spur leathers (if appropriate!) These ideas are mostly for fight- ing favors, but many of them could also be worn off the field. These suggest- ions are from the perspective of a person who cherishes the idea of wearing someone's favor more than the sign-visible-from-across-the-field-claiming- possession. Too many times, people put hours of labor into painstaking embroidery, only to have it demolished on the field - most of these should hold up a while at least. As far as what to put on them, if you don't feel comfortable putting your arms, how about a motto? An element from your arms? Something in your colors? An initial (if appropriate)? This is a question that has stumped me for a while and I've been researching it recently. Anyone who would like the full article on the subject (when its done) should send me email. Your (longwinded) servant, Keilyn Bmorris at digex.com From: branwen at flipper.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) Date: 4 Dec 91 22:32:16 GMT Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA In article <1991Dec3.170228.28950 at pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes: >In article <1991Dec3.034539.8030 at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> kabauer at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (katherine ann bauer) writes: >>I am also interested in favors, as I am in the process of making one >>for my lord. . . . >Well . . . You could just tear your sleeve off and tie it around his >arm . . . One of my friends made a new dress, with white tippets hanging down from the sleeves. She purposely sewed the tippets on loosely, so that when her lord came to her for a favor at Crown Tourney, she ripped off one of the tippets and tied it around his arm. It was splendid. (She made three tippets, so that she could sew on a replacement later.) Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West -- Karen Williams branwen at flipper.ras.amdahl.com From: 76206.2342 at compuserve.COM (WILLIAM KYLE) Date: 5 Dec 91 03:58:28 GMT Organization: The Internet Reply to: Jose" Subject: Favours.... Lord Cinaed de Moravia asks about the significance of favours. I may be only speaking for myself, But, I consider it an honor to be asked to carry a lady's favour. I have several favours on my belt that I wear from some very wonderful ladies that I have the pleasure of knowing. I like to believe that because of the respect they have for me personally, they ask me to carry their favour. It has to be respect because as many will attist, I am not that good of a fighter, I am not a person of title, nor am I a person of power. I asked one of the ladies, whose favour I carry, as to why she wanted me to carry her favour. Her reply was simple and to the point. She likes the way I treat her with respect and honor, the way I speak to her, and the way I treat all the ladies that she knows. She also said that I was kind and gentle and she had a lot of respect for me and the way I act and interact with others, and as far as she was concerned, I honored her by carrying her favour. If a lady asks for you to carry her favour, it may be because she finds you an honorable person in her eyes, and has respect for who you are. ============================================================= Lord Cahan Kyle of Clan Kyle If it's on the plate East Kingdom it's food, if it moves MCI Mail 418-0342 off the plate, kill it Compuserve 76206,2342 and put it back on the internet: 4180342 at MCIMail.com plate 76206.2342 at compuserve.com Azure, two tusks, tips Clan Kyle Motto: Bello et Pace Opera crossed in saltire, Or ============================================================= From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period favors Date: 26 Jan 94 05:07:11 GMT Organization: New York University, NY, NY In article <2i2hv1$gd0 at scratchy.reed.edu>, odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin) writes: > > In the middle of the morass of BoD postings comes a simple plea for info: > I have seen many references to "favors" given by ladies to their lords, > knights or suitors in both SCA and Period literature. The only problem > is that not one reference I've seen thus far refers to what the favor > physically (if it was indeed physical...) was. So, my plea: Does anyone > know what some period favors were? I expect that some were things like > garters or sashes, but I'm by no means sure. In "The knight of the grail" by Chretien de Troyes, Gawain fought in a tournament as champion to a girl named "Small Sleeves" this girl gave him one of her sleeves as a favor (which he pinned to his armour). He was not romanticaly involved with the girl. Nahum Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966) Subject: Re: Period favors Organization: Loral Data Systems Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 15:58:44 GMT In article <2i2hv1$gd0 at scratchy.reed.edu> odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin) writes: > > I have seen many references to "favors" given by ladies to their lords, > knights or suitors in both SCA and Period literature. The only problem > is that not one reference I've seen thus far refers to what the favor > physically (if it was indeed physical...) was. So, my plea: Does anyone > know what some period favors were? I expect that some were things like > garters or sashes, but I'm by no means sure. "Favors" were most in favor during the Tournament age. As someone else has posted, sleeves were used. These were actually fake undersleeves that the lady would remove and present to the gentleman (you know, the relatively tight undersleeves that were under the looser fitting oversleeves of the gown). Other appropriate tokens would be ribbons, embroidered handkerchiefs, etc. For those in the SCA who are from other time periods, but like the favor idea, use something appropriate to your persona. In the Viking era, there are references to woven ribbon bands being worn around a man's upper arm (maybe tablet woven trim(?)). Tying a handwoven band, or geometrically embroidared band around his arm would be appropriate for my time period. The standard SCA favor has always seemed to be embroidared tokens worn on the belt, but I think making a persona appropriate one is terrific. Thanks for helping the Rialto remain an information net. Brigit --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Brigit Olesdottir, OL |Pam Kreyling c/o Ed Kreyling Shire of Brineside Moor |Loral Data Systems Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA |Sarasota, FL, USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Miesje de Vogel (5/20/94) To: Mark Harris RE>Favour for Tris Dear Mark, Sure, no problem. I sent this to the Rialto, so I'll forward you that message below. You've got a file on favours? Want to let me know about stuff that you've found...please?! And, of course anything else you want, no problem, just let me know. Miesje (a _friendly_ Lochacian, I promise!), at )---%-- BTW. I hope that Tris thinks that the offer is still cute when he has a massive gothic sleeve to attach to the front of his tunic... he promised me! ----favour file starts here--------- Duncan MacAlpin said this: > >PS About these favours you continue to hand out with such gay abandon, is >this part of some mad scheme to raise an army for Pensic XXV? (tongue in cheek) What do you mean? Are you implying that every one of my favours is not heartfelt and meaningful, and wholy appropriate to my persona? And how many would I need for an army (wicked glint to eyes)? Seeing this comment, and seeing that I've had a few postings from people on the subject, I feel I really have to make a useful contribution to debate and compile a work: Treatise on Favours According to Miesje. So here goes. I. "What is that unsightly piece of ribbon hanging from the fighters belt?" - recently asked question by newcomer. Favours are a token from one person to another. they are a mark of esteem and respect, and are often something hand wrought or significant to the people in question. They are also separable into three categories: favours of friendship, of championship, and of love, and it must be decided by both parties in question what type of favour is being exchanged. [And then also there are the belts and such for squires, proteges, and apprentices. And ones given by Royalty. And womble favours of course. But they are not the subject of the current debate and should be written by those who have more knowledge of the things] 1. Favours of friendship: Given to people who you respect, and whose company you enjoy. For me this is like saying "this person is my friend, and I'm really proud of them". In my case, I met a man at Rowany called Snorri, a Viking, a bard, a gentleman, and always ready with a hug. Over the course of the week we got to know eachother, but at the end of the week, we realised that he was going back to Ynys Fawr (Tasmania) and I was going back to Polit. For those of you that don't know, this is a distance of several hundred kilometres, and a sea in the middle. And it was quite unlikely that we would see eachother again in the near future, ie the next year. So at the end of the week I presented him with a favour, and he gave me one - a physical token of our friendship, and a reminder until we next meet. 2. Favours of Championship: Given to those who request them of you. These are a link between the parties signifying a bond of honour. All honour that one party wins is to be laid at the feet of the other - and it works both ways, so the gentleman wins glory for the lady on the field of battle, and she in turn exemplifies the ideals of a lady. Or the other way around. It is the epitome of courtly love, in that often there is no more than friendship and respect, yet you are paying high honour by wearing such a favour to the lady/ lord in question. This is the sort of favour you take into the lists Tristan... In my experience, the lord will ask for a favour, and the lady will grant him one for a set period of time (this battle, this day, or for longer). I do not find it dishonourable to have more than one of these favours out at a time as long as the fighters in question are not fighting at the same time. For example, Sir Brusi Anderson has one of this sort of favour from me, but does not fight on it any longer. I therefore find it reasonable to grant my favour to another. 3. Favours of love: These are a way of declaring your special relationship with that special person, and are often a personal token. I would find it dishonourable to grant more than one of these, but then , that's just me. These favours can also be of championship, and one would hope they were of friendship also, and can often become such favours later. Personal info once again- I gave a favour to Lord Loyola Juan Sanchez Mendosa of this sort, when we started "going out". We have since "broken up". (as it was a pretty amorphous affair I'm not sure if these standard terms apply) The favour then turned from one of love to a sign of our friendship. [Yes Tris, you are not the only one Romantically challenged] There has also been in recent times a new phenomenon, the Favour of Desperation, thanks to a certain whim. as yet though, I do not feel qualified to talk on this. [All I can say is that I believe that at a recent lists, a pair of slippers were used as a favour - must have worked, because they won the coronet lists. ] Perhaps Tristan would like to expand on the subject, in view of his recent plea and flurry of responses? II. "Come on in the waters fine..." [to use a famous quote]. OK, Now you know what they are, how about how to make one. 1. What are they? Well, often they are a piece of cross stitch or embroidery, with a badge, device or some other symbol of the bestower, hanging from a belt. These kind can be as elaborate or simple as you want, and are often the most practical kind to make, as most people wear a belt with their garb. However, I've also seen variations stretching from things like ribbons, tippets and gloves, to lockets, silly hats, and real sleeves detatched from garments (my personal favourite as it really shows that the person is wearing your favour if you wear only one sleeve). They are often done in people's colours, and have some device/letter/picture/inscription which links them to the bestower. Now, you may be thinking that all this is fine, but I don't have the skills/time to make something. Well, this is not true. a favour is something which represents you, and is therefore whatever you want it to be - plaited ribbon is quick easy, and a very good favour. On the other hand, don't be put off trying something more complex, as its really satisfying to see something you've worked on being used in such a wonderful way - even if you don't think it looks good, the spirit behind the gift often make it more appreciated than what it actually is. III. So whats behind all this? Right, a little history on the things. Originally they were sleeves, gloves or scarves given as favours in tourneys, possibly stemming from good luck charms given to loved ones that were going off to war. If you want to find out more, just check out any books on courtly love, as they'll often describe more than I could put down here. IV. Disclaimer: Favours can be bad for your health... However, you'll also come across interesting stories. My favourite is one of a lady who sent a chemise to each of the fighters in a particular tourney, bidding them to wear this as protection instead of armour. One of the younger fighters actually does so, and he wins. He then staggers back, wounds everywhere, to the lady who then promptly agrees to marry him. I wonder if he lived long enough...? And from Geoffrey TQ: A little warning on seeking favours : The following is a summary of a section of "Tirant lo Blanc", a book written by two Catalan knights and published in 1490. It provides ample evidence that stickjocks then were totally and utterly barking mad. It also has a great many good bits - if people express interest, I may post some more stories from it. Background : Tirant lo Blanc is the hero of the book; currently he is in England, in a courtly setting. He approaches the daughter of the Duke of Berry, Fair Agnes : "My knowledge, sweet lady, of the beauty, grace, wisdom and other virtues that dwell within a body more angelic than human, obliges me to serve you, and therefore I beg you to grant me that brooch between your breasts, which I shall proudly wear in your service and honor, fighting to the utterance with any knight, on foot or horseback, armed or unarmed, in the manner of his choice." [she accepts and :] "I permit you to take the brooch with your own hands." Next day, a knight named Lord Barrentowns visits Tirant and tells him to relinquish the brooch, willlingly or by force, as he has "loved, served and worshipped this lady who is worthy of all good things" since he was a lad. Tirant, being a stickjock, refuses : "Should I ever do such a thing, may I be crowned with a flaming helmet." [There is a brawl, in which twelve knights and gentlemen are slain before the two are separated. Barrentowns challenges him to a duel. There follow three pages of ludicrous courtesy, offering each other choice of weapons, judges, etc. Eventually they agree on conditions : "I propose that the duel be fought on foot with French linen shirts, paper bucklers, garlands of flowers, and nothing else. The weapons shall be double-edged Genoese knives, a foot and a half long and with well-sharpened points." [The usual "If you don't want to fight, you can pull out now" - "No ! I'm better than you are !" By the way, a paper buckler is exactly what it sounds like.] They fight; Tirant hits his foe on the ear, almost reaching the brain; the other stabs him in the thigh and left arm, eventually Tirant stabs him through the heart; as he's dying Barrentowns drives his knife into Tirant's head. nearly killing him. Their friends rush over and start killing each other for possession of the body and the near-corpse. And so, perhaps you should think very carefully about granting favours. (Does anyone want to hear how Tirant fought a mastiff ?) Thanks Geoffrey, nice and positive... Well, that's all I have to say on favours, so, _do_ make them, have fun making them, and have wearing them. They are a wonderful way to add to the pageantry of the whole game that we play... Miesje. PS, Please feel free to change this, flame me, add some, whatever. I'm learning all the time... [PPS. I haven't given out that many favours, have I? Let's see: Friendship: Snorri, Loyola JS Mendosa, Simon Macfaelin, Phillipe du Lac Bleu. Championship: Sir Brusi, Tristan Clair de Lune, Gunther Freud. Love: none outstanding at the moment. See dad, I'm not in the stakes for an army yet, let alone trying to get them all to the same event!!!] ______ d9304570 at student.anu.edu.au - Known as Miesje de Vogel in all realities. From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Q:Need help with making a favor for a Lady fighter Date: 27 Mar 1995 20:51:35 GMT Organization: ucla In article <3l5bmq$a7q at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, vasyl at aol.com (Vasyl) says: > >I would really appreciate suggestions on making a favour for a lady-friend >of mine... > >Bogdan Kobzar > Alexis here! My husband (the big sap) made me an escutcheon-shaped favor to hang from my belt out of his old [leather] vambrace; he cut a striking eagle grasping a heart out of another piece of leather, carved our initials in the heart, and glued the eagle motif to the escutcheon. Then he made a belt-sized loop out of yet another piece of leather and rivetted that to the back of the escutcheon. Voila! A very butch- looking favor that fairly screamed "I was made by a guy -- or maybe a very macho babe!" It's all old and beat-up now, and getting a little fragile, but I'll keep it forever in my memory chest. Alexis Vladescu Lori Iversen WyvernHo-ette (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu) Altavia, CAID The Valley, CA From: LFHS72A at prodigy.com (William Mackenzie) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Q:Need help with making a favor for a Lady fighter Date: 3 Apr 1995 03:19:24 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY M'Lord Bogdan, unto you I send greetings. In times past I was fortunate enough to have a Lady pledge her sword to me and wrestled with the favour problem myself. In an attempt to make a token that was both beautiful, and masculine (as the lovely embroidered favour that I wore in her name was feminine) I turned to leather and metal, two mediums in which I had some experience. I fashioned a scrap of leather into a favour, and decorated it with brass (a replica of my own devise). Painting on the leather would be period also, I think. I used a scrap dyed in my primary tincture. Hope I helped a little. Your's in the name of the Society, Uilleam Waylander From: rudi3964 at utdallas.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Single Fighters Date: 9 Nov 1995 11:05:33 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas Brent L. Woods (woodsb at indy1.uucp) wrote: > On an tangent unrelated to the previous topic... What if one has > no one to fight for (or, has no token to carry)? Should that person not > enter the list at all? Should that person be barred from fighting? I'm > curious about this... In Crown list, yes, such a person is barred from fighting. In most other lists, in Ansteorra at least, it is assumed that each fighter is carrying someone's favor. In my first heavy list, I committed the faux pas of entering without carrying a favor. Between the first and second rounds the Crown Princess (who didn't know me from Adam's off ox, except that I had just tried to defeat her lord the Prince in the first round) called me over and said (among other things) that she saw that I had no favor to carry. She asked me if I would honor her by carrying *her* favor for the rest of the day. Is there anybody whose favor you would like to carry? Anybody who you think is special, and who impresses you with her bearing and honor? Go up to a lady you admire (I don't care if she's married), kneel at her feet before the tourney, and say, "Milady, I have no lady of my own to fight for this day. But in your gentle smile, even at your own lord, have I seen inspiration. Would you honor me by allowing me to fight for you in today's list?" (Don't use my words -- use your own. Use true ones.) If there is nobody there that you care enough to fight for, why are you here? (Note: I did not ask why you fight, but why you hang around so many people you don't like?) You have somebody to fight for; you have many people to fight for. You just haven't found them yet. Just don't confuse that with your social life. Good luck! Robin of Gilwell/Jay Rudin From: blacksca at aol.com (BLACKSCA) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favors Date: 9 Feb 1996 00:58:35 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) >>> I was wondering if anyone could help me...I'm looking for information on favors. I have a Viking persona--is there a type of favor that would be particularly appropriate? Thank you. -- **************************Lara Olstad************************** *RPI, Class of 1999. * SCA - Shire of Anglespur! * <<<< My lady, One or two come to mind, I've tried the following; A lock of Hair jewelry Rings of gold Armbands & Bracelets Necklaces My personal favorite, (although some people will probably object) ermine skins. These tokens feel just a little more 'Early Period' to me. My lady very much enjoys her ermine, at least as a conversation piece. Hopefully helpfully Dan Halfhand From: thomasdc at msn.com (Thomas Zadlo) Subject: RE: favors Date: 11 Feb 96 20:21:30 -0800 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: The Microsoft Network (msn.com) Allthow I can't point out what would be period for you, the best advice I ever received concerning favors I will most happily pass along. "It is not the form but the intent" By this my advisor meant make it mean somthing to you, even if it that meaning is not readly aparent to everyone else. The most personal favor I have ever heard of being given was made out of the remains of a piece of langeri (sp?) that the couple had worn to shreds (just how they did this was not my place to ask) but they were loth to part with it. Gives new meaning to recycling. As for the favor that my own dear one wears, it is a small pouch with my arms embroidered on it, large enough to hold his qual. cards, a small snack and a compass so in the event that our Royalty are not present he can find which way East is to make the appropreate salute. I hope this advice will help. Yours in Service to the East, Iseaulte Blaecstan, Clan Kilkenny From: ianengle at freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ian Engle) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favours Date: 1 May 1996 09:01:19 -0400 Organization: The Greater Columbus FreeNet Granola365 (granola365 at aol.com) wrote: : I would like to get an idea of what people really think of favours. I : have heard that some people hold them in high reguard, as others think it : is just another something to place on their belt while it holds their : fancy. : Can someone clarify this for me? I would really like to know what people : think. : *Besides, I won't make one for the lord in my life until I have an idea : what gentlemen generally think of them. I've never carried a favour and probably never will -- I don't fight. But I have made favours in my 18 years in: four in fact. First for Faoli who fought for me in Commoner's Crown Tourney -- may she forgive me THAT favour! One for Aibhinn ingen Flannicainn because she fought for my love, Dougal, in real Crown Tourney. One for Selimah of the Mystic Waters because she fought for me, same venue. And one for Dougal MacFindlay because he couldn't fight for me. One of these is still worn into the lists. I also remember sitting dumbfounded at a baronial meeting many years ago when an imported-from-out-of-kingdom knight took the ladies of a barony to task because the baronial fighters were not carrying favours from the baronial ladies. We were using the same words to refer to the same objects, but obviously we recognized different reasons for these objects to be made and given. Give a favour to one who fights for you -- however YOU want to interpret that -- and give it as a solemnly and as earnestly as you can. Never be tempted to trivialize a favour made or given. --Sion From: baron at sauron.hacks.arizona.edu (Baron Jonathan) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favours Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 11:42:47 -0700 Organization: Barony of Tir Ysgithr, Kingdom of Atenveldt In article <4m77ec$869 at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, granola365 at aol.com (Granola365) wrote: > I would like to get an idea of what people really think of favours. I > have heard that some people hold them in high reguard, as others think it > is just another something to place on their belt while it holds their > fancy. Greetings all from Jonathan, I, personally, hold a favor in very high regard. If you'll notice I said 'a favor' as I believe that one should only bear one at a time. The person from whom you carry favor (from my perspective as a fighter) is the person you will put upon a throne should you win a Crown or Coronet tourney. It is the person that inspires you to win and whose honor you carry with you upon the field. To wear more than one would devalue the role of the favor as a symbol of support from your consort. Before the flames about this begin, let me just say that I can see instances where bearing 2 favors would be appropriate (ie. your wife is not qualified to be a consort for some reason, yet approves of you fighting for another, for love you carry your wife's, for honor the consort's) or (ie. your lady's favor and perhaps the favor of the Queen or Princess for being a member of her court/guard, although I don't see these as favors but as pieces of livery). My Lady has taken tokens of friendship (termed 'favors') from others but will not wear them on her belt, but instead ties them to the handle of her basket or her goblet...making it look like the microphone stand for Aerosmith's lead singer (you know..the one with all the scarves tied to it). Note: this is a personal choice and I do not look disapprovingly on others personal choices in this regard, wear as many as you can get on your belt if you like, it's just hard to tell who you are fighting for... just have with the game Jonathan :) ps. I know a gentleman who had to carry a 4 lbs. sledge from his belt for months because he lost a lady's favor...it was a nice sledge though with a chromed head and well polished handle -- +------------**Baron at Sauron.HACKS.Arizona.EDU**------------+ | Baron Jonathan Thorne | Ermine, on a lozenge | | - Baron of Tir Ysgithr | gules, a knights' | | (Atenveldt) | chess piece | | -Lord of House Argent Horse | argent. | +- http://sauron.hacks.arizona.edu/~chrome/jonathan.html --+ From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favours Date: 2 May 1996 23:23:36 GMT Organization: New York University I think this is a good post to work off as it gives me much to discuss without having to present from scratch. Baron Jonathan (baron at sauron.hacks.arizona.edu) wrote: : In article <4m77ec$869 at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, granola365 at aol.com : (Granola365) wrote: : > I would like to get an idea of what people really think of favours. I : > have heard that some people hold them in high reguard, as others think it : > is just another something to place on their belt while it holds their : > fancy. I think that there is not enough interest in the SCA in looking at favours in a period manner and, I believe that developing in this department would be fruitfull. On a personal note, I've given up on expecting a favour from my wife (but she's not much of a medievalist so what can I do). : Greetings all from Jonathan, : I, personally, hold a favor in very high regard. If you'll notice I said : 'a favor' as I believe that one should only bear one at a time. "a favor" is periodly definable in several ways, as such it may be apropriate to carry (note - I do not say "wear") several. The : person from whom you carry favor (from my perspective as a fighter) is the : person you will put upon a throne should you win a Crown or Coronet : tourney. It is the person that inspires you to win and whose honor you : carry with you upon the field. To wear more than one would devalue the : role of the favor as a symbol of support from your consort. Before the : flames about this begin, let me just say that I can see instances where : bearing 2 favors would be appropriate (ie. your wife is not qualified to : be a consort for some reason, yet approves of you fighting for another, : for love you carry your wife's, for honor the consort's) or (ie. your : lady's favor and perhaps the favor of the Queen or Princess for being a : member of her court/guard, although I don't see these as favors but as : pieces of livery). You are, I think, much closer to a medieval view in your parenthetical aside then you are in your main section. The Token worn into battle in a visible way does not have to have any value for you outside of the fight. It is the mark of the person who you champion in that Tourney which can mean many things. You could be the full time champion of a particular lady. This lady may well be maried to another person and therefore it would be inapropriate for there to be any romantic involvement with her. (this is, for example, Lancelot's OFFICIAL position in many of the romances) You could champion a lady for the particular Tournament. Thus, for example, Gawain takes the sleeve of the Damsel with the Small Sleeves not because he has any romantic interest but because everyone else present thought he was a bum, while she had faith that he was a great knight (he was in disguise at the time) so she called him over and asked him to wear it. You could, of course, be fighting for your one true love - but the fact that you wear a favour from someone does not indicate that she is or isn't - simply that you are her champion in this particular tournament or even as a general matter. You certainly would not imply that the Knights of the Garter are all the queen's lovers. My Lady has taken tokens of friendship (termed : 'favors') from others but will not wear them on her belt, but instead ties : them to the handle of her basket or her goblet...making it look like the : microphone stand for Aerosmith's lead singer (you know..the one with all : the scarves tied to it). There is also nothing (medievally) special about the belt as a place for favors. They were worn on lances, helmets, or any other item of dress or equipment that would ensure them being seen. In fact, the belt is a bad place for this sort of favour, as the favor may not be noticed. Further, there are other types of favors which are much more intimate - and therefore more clearly have to do with love - these seem generally neglected. This is because they are not seen by most. Thus you have the classic lock of hair, or the kerchief which the lover keeps near his/her heart. You also have the special article of clothing, made as a labor of love by your beloved, or a special piece of armour obtained by your beloved - this will also go unrecognised by most as a favor (only by the one who counts and an intimate group of friends). The ring or necklace is also something of this type - a special keepsake. The keepsake type favors are both more intimate and more widespread historically then the "identifying tag" type. The later is solely the artifact of a tournament society - and is solely of use in one. (but then, the SCA may be said to amount to merely a tournament society) Note, however: None of these are exclusively from lovers. The keepsakes are also given by siblings or parents. : ps. I know a gentleman who had to carry a 4 lbs. sledge from his belt for : months because he lost a lady's favor...it was a nice sledge though with a : chromed head and well polished handle Good penance! Did his pants stay up? Nahum ha Kuzar From: "Otelio S. Randall II" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favors Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:45:28 -0400 Organization: Italia Online > In article <4m77ec$869 at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, granola365 at aol.com > (Granola365) writes: > > >I would like to get an idea of what people really think of favours. I > >have heard that some people hold them in high reguard, as others think it > >is just another something to place on their belt while it holds their > >fancy. > >Can someone clarify this for me? I would really like to know what people > >think. > >*Besides, I won't make one for the lord in my life until I have an idea > >what gentlemen generally think of them. > > > >thanks for your help. > >Larisa > >My Lady, Your questions is more likely to get you as many different answers as there are people who read the Rialto. Favors/Tokens can mean different things....here is a short summary of the favors I wore at Pennsic XXIV in the order I received them: #1 - Barony of Storvik At the time I had contracted to fight at the war for Storvik #2 - Baroness Storvik: Her Excellency gave her personal favor to everyone who fought for her barony. #3 - Personal Friend: We had been helping eachother through rough points in life, therefore I carried her favor, and she carried mine...both showing that we were eachother's emotional wellbeing champions. #4 - Personal Friend: Every member of our household carried the favor of our "little sister", the sister of one of our knight's squires...who did a lot of garb for us when we were starting out. #5 - Our Knight: Everyone in our household wore a favor/token with our knight's colors on it. #6 - Queen of Atlantia: I am an Atlantian fighter, and thus I wore the Queen's favor to display my loyal service to her. #7 - Household: As leader of a particular unit, I was presented with a favor that heraldicly displayed my unit's nickname #8 - Queen of the East: Atlantia fought on the East's side that war, thus I was in service to the East's queen as well. #9 - Personal Friend: Simply because my friend had asked me. 10# - Newbie: There was a newbie at her first war AND first event in the next encampment. she asked me to carry it, so I did, flattered. #11 - Bee Sting Kit: Not really a favor, but several people stop me and mention the fantastically coloured favor on my person #13 is the most important, and is the only favor I have NOT removed from my belt, and for the forseeable future, will continue to wear and for the following reason. While preparing for the field battle, I asked my Lady for a bit of ribbon in her colours to carry as a token of her on the field. She requested that I close my eyes, I heard a snip, and when I opened my eyes, she placed a lock of her beautiful red hair into my hands. I took this lock of hair and stumbled around our encampment dumbfounded (my lady and I had barely begun dating at this point) Two of my Clan sisters took the lock from me, and braided it with some ribbons that were in her colours, and attached a cloth rosette to it. I first wore the lock of hair pinned to my gambeson. Later after nearly panicing over losing it, My lady presented me with a green leather talisman pouch to keep the lock safe in. That talisman pouch now stays securely tied to my belt. It has left my belt only once, and that was for a demonstration we did for a cub scout pack, and she re-presented the favor to me, explaning to everyone what was inside. My lady has become my closest friend, source of inspiration, support, lover, and she has opened my eyes to a different view of life in and out of the Society. For as long as we are together as a couple, I will wear that talisman pouch on my belt. I will wear it because we both have duties that sometimes require us to be in different locations at events, with the pouch on my belt, a part of her is with me always both literally and symbolically, just as my heart is always with her. However Lady Larisa, none of the above applies to you and your situation. The best answer I can give you is to figure out what favors/tokens mean to you, what they mean to your Lord, and what the giving and carrying/wearing of them mean to the both of you. The views and opinions of everyone else in the world, myself included do not matter much in the end, because I will not be wearing your favor, nor will anyone else. I hope that is of some help to you.... Yours, Boroghul Khara/Grey the Succinct Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia From: kolton at arizona.edU (Jason Kolton) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favours Date: 19 May 1996 01:03:34 GMT Organization: The University of Arizona Lyle McNeal (lmcnea1 at zeus.towson.edu) wrote: : Clare ni Mhaille (sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu) wrote: : : This brings up a question: do only fighters receive tokens or is it : : appropriate to give favours to anyone? : I recieve a favor from my lady. Since I don't fight, as of yet, : I find it as a badge of love and trust that she has bestowed upon me. : The design that she used I feel is clever. It is a small pouch which I : can hang on my belt that has her device on the front of it. I am proud : that she took the time to "tag" me and wear it all the time. : Lyle McNeal : lmcnea1 at zeus.towson.edu : http://zeus.towson.edu/~lmcnea1 I can only speak for what they mean to me. I have recieved favours from both friends and signifgant others. I currently only carry 2 favours on my belt. One is from friend who no longer plays...it was the first favour I ever recieved and its signifigance transcends the SCA. She and I both know that she can call on me day or night if need be. The other favour I carry is from my SCA daughter. No explanation neccassary there. I dont neccasarily feel that you need be a fighter to carry a favour. A favour says that this person, who's favour you do bear, is important to you and you would defend them in whatever way needed. It is thier 'tag' of trust in you and your honour. I would also add, to those who would recieve favours, that you believe in the person that you are taking the favour from. It is not something to be taken lightly. I add this on due to the fact that I was recently faced with the choice of taking a favour or not, and to be honest I find it to be one of the hardest choices I have had to face in my time in the SCA. I have yet to make a final decision. It is hard for me because when I wear a favour it is saying that I hold that person's honour as dear to me as my own. Ah, well, I am rambling. Have fun, smile, be nice, share, and know that the answer is 3. What the question is I have no idea. Lord Jason Thorne Kingdom of Atenvelt Barony of Tir Ysgithr From: dcamville at aol.com (DCamville) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: favours Date: 19 May 1996 00:25:33 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Greetings.... On the subject of favors I agree with Lord Jason Todd. A "Favor" is a symbol of someone honor that you have been trusted to carry...a pretty big responsibility. I have also heard that folks will use the term "favor" to describe a physical representation of a relationship, in one its many forms. Usually the "favor" has some perminence and is "long lasting" in it's nature "Token" I have also heard used. Usually a "token" is a "mini-favor" and even though the "token" carrys great responsibility the "relationship" is usually lighter in nature. This is what I was told a number of years ago...my personal views vary from this. Anyone...to my knowladge can wear a favor. Just be sure that the one carring the favor will bring it and you, honor. Cheers, Viscount Richard de Camville From: Christine Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:25:29 -0500 jones at ns.noahsinternet.net wrote: > My husband is a fighter for Ironlance. He said he'd like > me to make him a favor for him to wear into battle. Since I am > new to the SCA, I'm not quite sure what would be appropriate, not > to mention strong enough to hold up in battle. I am an avid beader, > and I do a little weaving. Any suggestions from other crafters > in the society? My lady, A favor can be as simple as a piece of ribbon in your favorite color or as elaborate as the one my own lord carries with him. It consists of a pouch embroidered allover with my device into which I place a small snack to keep his strenght up and a compass so that he will all ways know what direction to salute in case the royalty or I are not present, and it is also usefull for holding his qual card. I think a piece of your weaving that is big enough to tie on his person or be sewn into a loop to place on his belt would be wonderful. There are no set forms for favors but anything that you have put your time and effort into creating will carry with it all your affection for your lord. I hope this helps. Lady Iseaulte Blaecstan, Clan Kilkenny, OM From: Christa Fulton Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:10:35 GMT In addition, A friend of a friend of mine has a card in his breast plate, Its says simply, "Love You" from his lady. I think its a realy nice touch every time he/she gets in to the armor, they are reminded that there is someone rooting for them. I'm planing on putting my lady's favor in my breastplate next to my heart. From: David Johnson Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: 17 Dec 1996 03:28:31 GMT jones at ns.noahsinternet.net wrote: > My husband is a fighter for Ironlance. He said he'd like >me to make him a favor for him to wear into battle. Since I am >new to the SCA, I'm not quite sure what would be appropriate, not >to mention strong enough to hold up in battle. I am an avid beader, >and I do a little weaving. Any suggestions from other crafters >in the society? M'Lady, I apologize because this will not be of practical help but may amuse all the same. My daughter is five years old and just this past weekend, one of our local lords fought in her honor at a Rapier event. He had fought for her once a couple of years ago and she gave him the ribbon off her teddy bear at that time. For this event I cut out a strip of white felt and let her have at it with markers. I then glued one end over for a belt loop. He escorted her up to be presented to the Prince and Princess of Northshield and one of her playmates wanted to go to so I showed her how to hold up my daughters skirt just a bit as if it were a train. Authentic? Quite probably not but adorable as all get out and a good example of the extended family nature of the SCA that I have always loved most. Kathryn Fletcher P.S. Back when I was quite new, I made a favor for the man who ultimately became my husband. I made the mistake (?) of embroidering a grouping of three feathers that looked too much like a fluer de lis (sp? sorry.) The poor endured an awful lot of kidding about fighting for the Prince of Wales! From: Aleq Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:04:54 -0800 > jones at ns.noahsinternet.net wrote: > : My husband is a fighter for Ironlance. He said he'd like > : me to make him a favor for him to wear into battle. Since I am new > : new to the SCA, I'm not quite sure what would be appropriate, not > : to mention strong enough to hold up in battle. I am an avid beader, > : and I do a little weaving. Any suggestions from other crafters > : in the society? Might I suggest the highly decorated glove? Quite period (depending on your persona/l timeframe, of course, but definitely period) and can be very sturdy, especially if you use a fine leather glove and then embroider and bead it. Basically, a favor is what you want to make and how you want to make it, favors are very personal and as such tend toward the eclectic. For a lover/husband, I like to make very elaborate favors which contain personal touches--initials, favorite colors, locks of hair, etc. If they don't hold up forever in combat, oh well... you can always make a newer, spiffier one which utilizes skills you've learned in the interim... Adellind le Quintain From: jeffebear1 at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: 1 Jan 1997 09:07:46 GMT hamilton at adi.COM writes: >However, the most common favor is a strip of cloth embroidered with some >design. The strip is looped through a belt or tied around the upper >arm in most cases. You could use beadwork to decorate it, but I fear >the beads would fall off and you'd spend a lot of time on maintenance. >A small piece of your weaving should be just fine, and if you want to >decorate it somehow, you can. Fabric can be painted and appliqued as >well as embroidered. I embroidered and beaded a piece of velvet for one of my first Lords. I soon learned he wore it during heavy fighting and he was terribbly upset at the way it became dirty so he washed it with hand soap...... The next fight was the end of my now crushed velvet look favor and all the beads left fell off and it shredded with a good "hip" shot. I then made a cross stitch favor with metalic threads mixed with my floss for glitz. I sewed the old favor inside the new and it's lasted a long time. Save the beads for the "court" favor. A nicely embroidered sleeve cuff will button over a belt nicely also. Lady Morigianna From: margali13 at aol.com (Margali13) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: A favor/hair Date: 13 Feb 1997 12:16:18 GMT Good question. I have a similar problem with a twist. I am early celtic and have a hank of my hair, but the only way I can think of to use it as a favor is to braid it into a grommet or circle, tucking the ends in so they are hard to see, and then tacking it to a piece of embroidery like a round picture frame and wear it like a regular favor. The second way would be to keep it in a neat braided hank and tie each end off neatly, and tuck it through an armband or into your belt or cuff. I have absolutely no documentation, but knights are illustrated with cloth favors tied around the upper arm, or tucked into armor bits. Anybody else have a clue? margali of dragons aerie From: buglow Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: How to honor my Lord.... Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:03:21 -0700 Bryan J. Maloney wrote: > For a lady to bestow her favor upon a man is more honor than any man ever > deserves. To smile upon him indebts him for the rest of your life. > > Bryan Maloney > Yes, I really *am* that severely married... (smiles) Giving him my favor was no small thing. After I made it, I was not able to bestow it upon him for several days, I wore it myself every day until I could personally place it upon his belt. He is the grace upon which I have hung my honor, and he has not been found wanting in any way. If nothing he himself has laid honor after honor at my feet. So yes, I understand how you feel about your beloved. Romance is a lovely thing isn't it??? (It's nice to see I'm not the only one... ) :) I thank you for your letter my Lord... Sabine From: ladypdc at aol.com (Lady PDC) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: 2 Apr 1998 05:58:56 GMT >I am looking for idea's for favors to give to fighters. I am in a predominatly >fighting household & since my lord fights I would like to give him a favor to >carry on the field but I have no idea what to use/make. I can sew & embroider >so it is just the idea's of what to use that I need. > >Adrianna Hawke MacLaren MacKinnon I have heard of many different types of favors. Everything from simple ribbons and detachable sleeves to elaborately embroidered items. One thing to remember is that this will be worn on the field where it could be chopped at, slashed at, and just plain smashed. So make it sturdy. In my case I wanted the favor I gave my Lord to be special and to have personal significance. I made him a black leather pouch with a belt loop at the top. The top of the pouch has small grommets through which I threaded leather thong to hold it closed. Within the pouch I placed a lock of my hair braided with a silver ribbon and formed in the shape of a heart, a dried and waxed petal from the first rose he ever gave me, a clip of fur from our dog, and a sprig of thyme. I told him that this way he would carry with him our family (the dog), the knowledge that time spent together was our most precious asset (the thyme), my undieing love (the rose petal) and my heart (the braided hair heart). On the outside of the pouch I painted his device and told him that it was there so that he and his actions could always protect and defend what was within. I believe that the most important thing about a favor is that it be special in some way, appropriate to the person receiving it, and reminicient of the person giving it. Constance De LaRose Debbie Snyder Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:57:18 -0800 From: Heather Senkler Subject: Re: Favors On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Andrea Hicks wrote: > What about those who want to make a favor for someone other than their > spouse? Not all favors have romantic connotations. Suggestions? I made a very meaningful favour for a very good friend. It was made of scraps from my fighting tunic (strength) an embroidered flowering bush (growth) and a harp (music) because she had helped me in all of these aspects and more. I made it with care. SHe accepted it with pride. And she wears it every event. To me a favour is a token to someone you care about, whether filios, eros, or agape. Ekatarina Borisovna From: savaskan Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:31:56 -0800 Adrianna34 wrote: > I am looking for idea's for favors to give to fighters. I am in a predominatly > fighting household & since my lord fights I would like to give him a favor to > carry on the field but I have no idea what to use/make. I can sew & embroider > so it is just the idea's of what to use that I need. My favorite favor I ever gave was a sleeve embroidered in latin with a romantic motto. The favorite favor I ever received was a glove with the fighter's arms painted and tooled into it. I've found that it helps if the favor is not too delicate. As a fighter, it is embarrassing if the favor is messed up while fighting. Juliana From: Larry Johnson Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:17:01 -0700 > My girlfriend gave me her favor to wear a few months ago. However, we broke > up. > > I hold her in very high esteem, but I don't think I should carry it. What > should I do? In my humble opinion, you should keep the favor as a rememberance in a small keepsake box. As you are not seeing each other, I would not wear the favor, it would put a damper on any other fine damsel to give you a favor of theirs. Yours aye, Labhruinn MacIain an Mor From: "The Shrew ~~~~~( 8:>" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:44:14 -0700 Organization: Shrewsbury Renaissance Faire Good morrow, Master Rugged! Regardless of SCA or Rennie, to return a ladies' favour, for *whatever* reason, is a great insult to her. So keep it safe for fond memories. Huzzah! Play Faire! the Shrew ~~~( 8:> -- Web Page: http://www.peak.org/shrewsbury/ Email: shrew at peak.org Shrewsbury Renaissance Faire From: "sunshinegirl" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: 9 May 98 06:23:33 GMT Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services, Richardson, TX > > My girlfriend gave me her favor to wear a few months ago. However, we broke > > up. > > > > I hold her in very high esteem, but I don't think I should carry it. What > > should I do? I was always told there were three main meanings to favors; 1. Favor of commitment i.e. spouse, significant other, girl or boy friend 2. Favor of friendship 3. Favor of the day If you have broken up, you are no longer carrying a favor of commitment, however, you are still on good terms and you esteem her. You may wish to carry it, if she permits, as a friendship favor. If she did not ask for it back, and your relationship memories are good, by all means keep it as a remembrence. Melandra of the Woods From: "Morgan E. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:07:53 -0600 Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc. > Regardless of SCA or Rennie, to return a ladies' favour, for *whatever* > reason, is a great insult to her. So keep it safe for fond memories. > the Shrew ~~~( 8:> INTERKINGDOM ANTHROPOLOGY ALERT!!! In An Tir, unless things have changed greatly, this is not the case. You may give a favour back if the relationship has changed or is irrevocably broken, but you must do it with courtesy and not in a spirit of vindictiveness. IE "My lady, I have always treasured the mark of favour I have carried for you. Yet life has changed for both of us, and it no longer means what it once did. With sorrow, I ask you to take it back." The lady (or gentleman - I've gotten favours from guys, myself) is also free to say that although she no longer feels as she once did, she wishes you to carry it in remembrance of times past. You pretty much should do this. What neither of you should do is treat it like a mundane engagement ring and throw it back in the giver's face, nor should you attempt to pawn it for quick cash. Morgan the Unknown From: hayroll at aol.com (HayRoll) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Favors Date: 09 May 1998 16:15:02 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com I still carry the favor of a lady from the West for whom I am very fond. She spent a great deal of time embroidering it -- almost the whole time we were together. We ended up splitting up, and I offered to return it, and she told me to keep it. I now wear it in honor of one I hold great regard for; though we never see each other at all anymore (especially since I'm in the Mid and she's still in the West) it is a favor of friendship, not of promise or love. OTOH, Two months ago I suffered a neck injury and may never be allowed/able to fight again, so everything is rendered academic... Effingham Subject: RE: BG - Favors? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 09:21:01 MST From: Elisabeth Zakes To: "'bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG'" On Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3:37 AM, Chris Yone [SMTP:cyone at sprd1.mdacc.tmc.edu] wrote: > Could someone tell a naive lass more about favors -- What are they made of? > How/when are they presented to a fighter? Does a fighter ask the Lady or does > the Lady ask the fighter? Are they to hang from a belt or tie to ones > arms/armor? I think I remember stories of anything from a chemise (in a > scandalous story) to ribbons, scarves, and flowers given as favors. I realize > some of it is up to the creativity of the fighter and lady, but some basic > guidelines would be nice to start from. It might be fun to have some sort of > contest concerning favors... > > Kirsten MacDonald A favor can be made out of anything that pleases you. One favor I have from Tivar is my marshalling staff. It is equally okay to ask or be asked. One thing to keep in mind is the usefulness of the favor to the person carrying it. A belt favor doesn't do much for someone who doesn't wear a belt. It was popular in period to tie something around the upper arm of a heavy fighter as a favor. Note that lords can give favors to ladies, too! There are also several sorts of giving: a friendship favor for the day, a permanent friendship favor, a favor until a task is completed, a lover's favor... Use your imagination here, and whatever fits the people and the situation. Aethelyan Subject: Re: Re: BG - Favors? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 11:32:10 MST From: Aceia at aol.com To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG A really neat one I once saw was a lady who made a really nice heraldic dress for a special event. She took off one of the sleeves and attached it to her fighters shield. She wore the dress all day with one sleeve off and her chemise showing. Then after the tourney, the fighter gave her her sleeve back(very beaten and tattered) which she then reattached to the dress and that dress became her favor from her fighter. She wore those battle scars proudly. -Robin Subject: Re: BG - Favors? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 22:19:37 MST From: Brent Hanner To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG Here is a mention of a favor from "Service of Ladies" by Ulrich von Lichtenstein, a 13th century german knight. "One knight, of whom I'd heard, was there who had with him his lady's veil. He'd want to tourney without fail. Sir Otte von Spengenberg was he, a noble knight, who rode toward me with gleaming armor, richly dressed as fits a lady's suitor best. His trappings glittered far and wide, around his helmet there was tied a veil of an expensive kind, and thus came he a lofty mind. We both would serve a lady dear;" Peder Subject: [Fwd: Re: On Favors] Date: Wed, 05 May 99 12:04:09 MST From: rmhowe To: JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org, MelanieWilson at compuserve.com, stefan at texas.net, "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" Subject: Re: On Favors Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:19:09 -0400 From: Beth Morris To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org Poster: Beth Morris Thank you Donal, for your *excellent* article on favors! There is one thing mentioned which I would like to add to. Donal writes: > In the Current Middle Ages, the custom has developed of making special > objects specifically called "favors" that are given to a fighter or fighters > for several reasons. This is true, and well and good, but the tea-towel favor - > most commonly a favor takes the form of a > rectangle of fabric with some decoration identifying the bestower, and > sometimes, especially in the case of "Romantic" favors, the one wearing it > as well. Usually worn tucked into a belt or strap, they will often have a > loop at the top for extra security. bears little or no resemblance to *anything* described in period literature, illuminations, etc. This is one of those cases where with a teensy bit more effort on the research end (and frequently significantly *less* effort on the construction end!) one can produce a marvelous, original and period favor (and here I commend me to Her Gracious Majesty, the Queen - if any of you have seen the sleeves she has granted to His Majesty and to Her Champion, you will understand my point). > Lacking a prepared favor, a lady might > improvise. She might give the fighter a bit of ribbon from her hair or a > sleeve (not a whole sleeve, please, ladies, the chance of damage is too > great!), a scarf, or some other thing that would not itself be at risk or > place the wearer at risk. For that reason, a piece of jewelry in not a good > choice. Here Donal provides a couple of examples that will also make good 'permanent' tokens as well. A pair of sleeves, with one made especially for giving and the other to be worn by the lady? I cannot imagine a more elegant statement of devotion! In some Middle Eastern cultures, it was customary to give one's lover the elaborately woven drawstring of one's loose trousers - an easy item to make, and one both intimate (to those who know) and period! In one medieval romance, the lady even gives the gentleman a silk chemise, which she has briefly worn next to her skin - he wears it over his armor in the fight! While that might be a bit much for some, there are other options described in manuscripts - veils, scarves, jewelry, gloves. What about a lady's leather garter >from her hose? Even a stocking itself (and we're talking sturdy woolen or silk ones, not a nylon!)? The lacing from one's gown - perhaps a tad intimate, but also convenient. A linen cap (one that you don't care will probably be ruined)? Donal warns against jewelry, and in principle I agree with him, but there are certainly ways to make jewelry into a favor safe to wear upon the field - rings, rings made into brooches, collars of maintenance, cast badges (excellent for households!). I encourage all who are inspired by Donal's article and by the love of that gentle who fights in their name to do a tiny bit of homework and truly give their love a splendid (and period) favor. Keilyn ======================================================================= List Archives, FAQ, FTP: http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/ Submissions: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org Admin. requests: majordomo at atlantia.sca.org Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:07:33 -0800 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Homecoming To: Cooks within the SCA Please tell him that kingdoms in the SCA are honouring returned veterans of all eras. Drop a note to your local Crown and see if your kingdom has such a program; I know about those in The West and Caid for certain. I sent an embroidered favor to a Marine tank driver of my acquaintence. After Gulf War I, he met with me and presented the favor to me covered in tank oil and glory; I bade him keep it as a sign of my never-ending esteem. It has been to the Middle East and back twice now and he is still alive and well. Joy and honour to your house, Selene > Hello to all ... just had to share this *very* exciting news: after > 374 days in beautiful downtown Baghdad, my son-in-law arrives home > tonight! There's going to be celebrating tonight, you betcha. ;) > > Anne From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" Date: August 30, 2006 5:55:35 PM CDT To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] Favors for Elfsea Ladies Pavilion Lady Delorise, Greetings from Duchess Willow de Wisp I hope you will not mind if I open up this question to some of the Ladies I have asked to take part in the Elfsea's Ladies Pavilion. What should the favors we give out at the Pavilion be like? In historical times a favor was a favor was a favor. Whether an intimate, personal thing like a lady's silk shift that had been worn next to her body or a piece of cloth torn in the heat of moment off a dress they were still a "favor". In the SCA we have separated the "Favor" a Lady gives her Lord and the favor token. While in the middle ages the favor one gives to a lover should be guessed at, like having the same colors as ones dress but should never give away the actual identity of the Lady the "Favor" in the SCA is often includes the arms of both people linked forever and shouts to everyone who can knows heraldry who are the parties involved. This kind of "Favor" is almost a contract and should not be given or received unless both parties understand the commitment. The token favor is less serious thing. This is what we are mostly giving out at the Ladies' Pavilion. Of course, some Ladies may be giving out personal intimate tokens, but most of the time the purpose of the favors are to promote Chivalry and courtliness and to encourage the fighters on the field. It is serious in one way because it does involve giving and taking the honor of another person. When a Lady gives a small f favor she is entrusting that individual with her honor and now their actions on the field reflects on the Lady. Her trust is very special and in all cases with which I am familiar has bought out the best in the individual. I am sure that somewhere somehow this hasn't been true, but I like to live the dream so please don't disillusion me. Because the small favor is not a token of eternal love it is proper for it to be simple. Simple ribbons of your favorite color or colors are just fine, but some ladies make them fancier. The Ladies of Lindenwood had lace favors that they had made. The Caldal ladies made cords in our colors. I have given feathers with ribbons on them. I have given out silk flowers. One lady gave out cookies. It is proper for a gentleman or lady to wear all the token favors he/she has gotten. Yes, it is proper for a Lady to give a Lady fighter a token. In the Kingdom of Ansteorra it is perfectly proper for men to give out favors. We are encouraging the high ideals of our kingdom and it is always proper to do so. Because part of activity is to wear the favor it is good idea that your favors can be worn. The cookies didn't survive being worn. I give out pins once. This turned out badly because the pins were broken by the blows and the pin part speared my gentles that wore them. Please keep practicality and safety in mine while creating your favors. Ribbons should be long enough so you can tie them, but not so long as a fighter would kneel on them if he/she goes down on their knees. Pins should not be long enough to inflict damage. Soft is good. We don't want little hard things flying off and getting in peoples eyes. Please realize that your favor might not survive the activity so don't put anything on it you treasure too much. Traditional the "Favor" should be returned after the tourney or when the relationship ends. Token favors are not returned. Fighters take great pleasure in wearing and keeping them as keepsakes. I have known fighters that have given silk flowers that I have given them for 20+ years. If you want your token favors returned to you make sure you state that fact when you give out the tokens. Knowledgeable gentlemen will try to return the token favors after the Tourney. Courtly ladies will give them permission to wear them as a sign of honor. This Courtly behavior at its best giving us a chance to flirt a little in a honorable way. To Cap the points simple is good ribbons and flowers open individualizing is all right, but don't go overboard make them safe and not get in the way of the fighting. Duchess Willow de Wisp First Queen of Love and Beauty in Ansteorra From: "Shali" Date: June 11, 2010 10:16:25 AM CDT To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Royal colors? There are lots of other things to wear though.   I remember when I once broke a shoelace and one of my  new friends was grinning from ear to ear, duly mocking  me for this colorful and annoying mishap and so I held  it out to him and said "Please accept this as a token  of my esteem." OH GOSH that got me into hot water... he got all kinds of happy and said "A favor for me?  Thank you! I will keep it forever" and I was like..  "Say What? What are you talking about?" And he told me  about these little things called favors and I was truly  horrified that he intended to keep and wear that shoelace  as a favor so I asked for it back and said I would make  something better. I mean, gosh, I can't have someone  going around wearing a broken shoelace as a favor for  heavens sake!!! He said he would give it back to me  later and he made a favor using the shoelace as part of  a favor for me. Just goes to prove you gotta be careful  about what you say and especially if you are unfamiliar with  the customs like favors and other stuff.   Shalimariah  (I miss my friend... James crossed over May 2009)   To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Favours for a Fencer Posted by: "Karen" karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com Karen_Larsdatter Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:58 am ((PDT)) Elizabeth asked: <<< So has anybody got evidence would be a period appropriate favour (ignoring debates about whether a man would carry a favour in the SCA sense, especially when fencing) for a 16th century persona that I can make using my fabric related skills. >>> to which Adelicia responded: <<< M'lady, if I may be so bold, I think the perfect thing would be an embroidered glove! "Give me your gloves, I'll wear them for your sake..." Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice >>> I'd agree with Adelicia's recommendation, and I'm going to also point you at a 16th century portrait -- that of George Clifford, Earl of Cumberland -- where he's wearing a glove that was given to him, apparently by Queen Elizabeth herself, in his hat: http://www.wga.hu/html/h/hilliard/clifford.html You can find more 16th century gloves linked from http://larsdatter.com/gloves.htm of course; scroll down to the section of the miscellaneous five-fingered gloves for many examples. Another possibility would be a handkerchief (again, going back to Shakespeare for inspiration -- there's the "Handkerchiefe spotted with Strawberries" in Othello); you'll find several embroidered handkerchiefs linked from http://www.larsdatter.com/handkerchiefs.htm which may inspire you. Karen Larsdatter www.larsdatter.com To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Favours for a Fencer Posted by: "Jennifer Kobayashi" jhkob at yahoo.com jhkob Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:03 am ((PDT)) So has anybody got evidence would be a period appropriate favour for a 16th century persona that I can make using my fabric related skills. A handkerchief, glove or sleeve, come to mind. A handkerchief as favor plays an important part in Othello. The Merchant of Venice quote for gloves has previously been posted. I can't think of a 16th century reference for sleeves off hand, but sleeves were certainly given as favors in earlier times and I believe still in the 16th cen. -Jennifer/Gwendolyn of Middlemarch To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Favours for a Fencer Posted by: "Schrecht" schrecht at yahoo.com schrecht Date: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:55 am ((PDT)) <<< My lord has recently asked me for a favour that he can carry when fencing. It didn't occur to me before but I'm trying to think of something at least somewhat period appropriate to give him as a favour. I have somewhat limited embroidery skills (so far my only successful attempts have been counted blackwork) almost all of my SCA efforts tend towards garb making. So has anybody got evidence would be a period appropriate favour (ignoring debates about whether a man would carry a favour in the SCA sense, especially when fencing) for a 16th century persona that I can make using my fabric related skills. >>> Excellent question, and congratulations for choosing to avoid the tea towel. In addition to the glove, sleeve, and handkerchief already mentioned, Elizabethans wore a lot of rings, and gave them as tokens of friendship and more. Rings didn't even have to fit: men sometimes wore a lady's ring on a ribbon, or pinned to a sleeve. There are several portraits of men in Elizabeth's court wearing them - Sir Henry Lee is one. And something I haven't seen used as a specific mark of favor in period, but which works quite well, is garters. They were near-ubiquitous in period, but are often omitted in our game. Make them up with a nice pair of reproduction silver buckles, and even without the tea-towel-style embroidery, you've given him something special and improved his kit. Jost From: Lady Merl Date: January 18, 2011 7:58:11 PM CST To: The Triskele Tavern Subject: {TheTriskeleTavern} Re: A new topic for today - List Field Ettiquette Tokens and favors are very important to me. When I first joined the SCA, I had the great fortune to live here in Oldenfeld and had wonderful friends who taught me the fine points of love, chivalry, and honor. After Braennan the Misguided and I became a engaged he was entering the light weapons field and I realized I needed a favor to give him. I took out my belt knife and tore a strip of fabric from the bottom of my surcoat and tied it around his arm. He always wore that on the field ever after. Someone recently told me how that act was one of their defining moments in the SCA. Sadly, during our seven year hiatus that favor became lost. His current favor is a braid of ribbon that I always wear to the list field and during the salute of his first combat I remove it from my hair and tie it around his arm. Lady Merl On Jan 18, 1:05 pm, Larissa wrote: <<< So... since the list is quiet I thought I would throw some stuff out here :) I have noticed over the years the declining tradition of consorts standing at the list field to watch their champion fight. It seems we have many people who do that here and many who don't. What's your view? Also, I remember days of belts full of favors (I am personally not into the clothes line look but a few are ok) and have felt pretty saddend at the lack of the big deal over favors we used to make as a culture. Duncan and I have a pre fight I guess the word is "ritual" we go through when he fights in a tournament. He will come over to me before the fight as part of his salute and kneel before me and I kiss him on the helm. This adds much to our dream and we feel the appearance of courtly love and chivalry, all things we all try to recreate in the SCA. So... in this spirit I thought it would make a great sharing topic. Favors? Where are you on the list field? Where would you like your consort to be? Have fun :) and I am looking forward to reading! Larissa >>> From: "Sara Glaze" Date: January 18, 2011 8:54:03 PM CST To: Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Re: A new topic for today - List Field Ettiquette My lord husband and I have a similar story... I was in society prior to him and he was asking lots of questions about everything. Which was awesome. He was asking about Favors and Tokens. I explained it to him the way it was explained to me. You give a token to a friend..ie a token of your friendship. You give a favor to someone you love someone you are trying to win favor with. He said ok and wandered off to look at stuff and talk to people. Later that evening he came back and said I got you something. He pulled out matching necklaces with infinity celtic knots on the end. He said "its a favor because I definately love you". We were engaged shortly after that. I have sadly lost one of the favors but the other hangs from our rear view mirror in the car and then goes around my neck at events. I always salute him on the list field by touching the favor first that won my heart and then blowing him a kiss. Thanks for bringing back a awesome memory. Lady Sorcha (who met her true love in the SCA and will be happily married 9 years in June) From: Elaine Manyoki Date: January 21, 2011 1:19:32 AM CST To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} A new topic for today - List Field Ettiquette Both times that I have been a consort to a fighter at Crown Lyst, I walked to the side of the lyst field closest to where my fighter was standing, and then either stood, or took a knee, until my fighter won or lost that bout, and then met him at the exit to the field, and escorted him back. Both times, I sewed a very special favor for that person. In one case, the gentleman returned my favor to me years later, when he got married himself, and the second favor I asked to have returned. I also handed out a few, very few, tokens to fighters that were close friends, or who had asked to carry my token. In only one case did I ever take one of those back, and it was because I found it under the lawn tractor, stained with oil. To this day, I don't think the fighter even realizes that I took it back. It wasn't on his belt, it wasn't the first time I had found it on the ground and he had to have seen it before he parked the tractor on it. I just wrote that one off as a lost cause. To me, tokens and favors are a big deal, and those who carry mine do so with respect, or not at all. This was something I learned at one or two of my first events...always have some ribbon or a glove handy as a token for a fighter to carry, in case someone asks to fight for you. Katya From: Kimberly Calvin To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 1:27:11 PM Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} A new topic for today - List Field Ettiquette If someone were to fight for me, I would stand and watch every fight. I also have made in the past several pewter scallop shell tokens. I carved the stone and poured the shell. The few times I have been fought for the fighter got one of them as a token of my esteem. I feel that it is important to do this kind of thing. It shows respect for the fighter and a graciousness at being asked to be fought for. The tokens are a big deal. They are a symbol of my respect for you. They should be taken care of and guarded. I have returned favors that have been lost and will continue to do so. I will say however, if I notice someone repeatedly losing their token, I think I would have to ransom it back to them. Hexy To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Questions on chivalry... Posted by: "Brad Moore" mamluk at yahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:05 pm ((PDT)) One of my favorite chivalric experiences came from my second Gulf Wars (later to be known as "Gulf Wash"). I was watching the Pas d'Armes put on by a certain group. The tenans had taken on the aspect of knights of the faerie realm, and had taken a noble lady from the Barony of Concordia of the Snows as their captive. She was held in a bower, and the tenans invited all comers to fight for her honor, and the honor of their ladies in the gallery. The Pas was amazing, but it was the honor and gentility of this lady from the north that truly struck me. She had small tokens and inspired words for each person who came forward to fight. I was deeply moved by how intent and focused she was on assisting the venans to elevate their game, and to fight for a higher ideal, for the inspiration of his own lady, and for this unknown gentlewoman in the bower. I had made a few bottles of rose cordial before the war, and decided to give one to her, to thank her for what she had done that night, in breathing life into that dream. After we had spoken for a time, she asked that I have lunch with her the next day at her camp. As we sat and talked the next day, she told several stories about Pas d'Armes and her experiences in the Society, but the one that was the most moving was how a Pas d'Armes had brought she and her husband together. I only hope I can do it justice, it has been many years since I heard it. She was a heavy fighter, like her future husband, and found herself on the field at Pennsic War. She witnessed a gentle fall to the ground, overcome by the heat. Knowing how dire the situation was, with chirurgeons being far away, she rushed to him, removed his helmet, and ripped the sleeve from her own tunic, wet it, and wrapped his head in it to keep him cool, waiting with him until a chirurgeon could come. When she was sure he was in good hands, she left him to rejoin her own people. Several years later, she was sitting in the gallery of ladies at a Pas d'Armes when a knight entered the field; to her surprise, he was wearing the sleeve torn from her tunic on his belt. He announced to the gallery that he had sworn on the field at Pennsic that day to wear her sleeve as a token until he found the lady who had come to his aid; a lady he remembered only as a brief vision in his fevered state. She said that the sleeve was now tattered and worn from the years on his belt, but that it was his most precious token. She stood, and told him that the sleeve was hers. Deeply honored by his gesture, she gave him a ring of flowers so that he could fight for her in the Pas that day. He fought well and bravely, having found the lady who had come to him in his hour of need. Some time later, they were married. It brings me no shame to admit that I was moved to tears by this tale. She worked so hard at making that Pas special because of what deep joy and love it had brought to her, and knew that it could inspire that for others as well. It has been one of the stories that has always remained with me, and inspired me to strive for greater in pursuit of the dream. Nicolas From the fb "SCA Garb" group: Shea Rose 9/19/15 at 8:31am Etiquette question: If I made a bundle of queens favors, would it be presumptuous of me to keep one for myself? I love the design, but I hardly ever see the queen and therefore am unlikely to receive one from her. Gõcauo Ramiriç I keep a copy of anything I make... In this case, I would keep a copy, however, I would certainly not wear it. Sandhya Jones If you made them for HRM to give out as she sees fit, then yes I believe it would be a bit presumptuous to keep one without her leave. Perhaps keep a prototype, but not to wear. Jenn Crewell To keep one? No, not at all. To wear it, yes. Therese McGee I echo what others have said. To build on it, if you're in a situation where materials are limited or you others can't keep one for yourself, photograph the work from multiple perspectives. This will give you a helpful record of your work. smile emoticon Tamara Sorcha Taylor I always keep a sample of my work. Someday, you may want to be a Laurel and you'll want a binder, showing your work and growth. wink emoticon Brandon W. Reid Echo that. I, myself, fall into the old stereotypical "cobbler's children go about bare footed", and don't have any of my own work, per se, and I notoriously work against deadlines, so I OFTEN forget to take photographs of my work... So take my opinion with the proverbial grain of salt From the fb group "SCA Courtesy": Marc Chin February 2 at 1:05pm As an armored and rapier fighter, I carry my Lady's favor, onto which are pinned several tokens from Ladies who do not have someone who fights for them; they are carried with the permission of my Lady, which is why they are pinned directly to her favor. Is the carrying of multiple tokens normal and acceptable in your Kingdom? Vicky Eisenstadt yes ;) ·February 2 at 1:07pm Jonathan Valgardr Gunnarsson Sidwell With that explanation I would say yes February 2 at 1:31pm Murray J. Anderson As a non-fighter I've seldom been graced with a token from a lady that I'm not actually involved with (but it has happened :) ). I've lived in five kingdoms over 35+ years and I've never before heard of this idea of supplementing the token of your partner with tokens from others who have entrusted you to represent their honour and grace upon the field. Personally, I think this is a brilliant idea and, at least in my mind, demonstrates a deep respect both for your partner in his/her role as the primary person you fight for as well as the other Gentles that have given you their favour and done so with the approval and consent of your partner. I think that this could become a fine new tradition as the idea spreads. Edited by Mark S. Harris favors-msg Page 2 of 39